That was a very good scientific poll I voted mono white!
And on the topic of mono white, I retract my previous distractions about a B/W build. I think it ended up being a worse 5C humans and a worse D&T, not racing fast enough and not disrupting hard enough. As always I return to mono white, humbled but hopefully having learned something. Never leave home without your 10 copies of land destruction! Ghost QuarterTectonic EdgeField of Ruin are all-stars and splashes aren't worth giving them up!
I keep seeing successful lists running a stack of 1-ofs (virtual 5-ofs if we count 1 Mindcensor with 4 Arbiter), 2-ofs, and 3-ofs all over the place, with the mostly-agreed-upon core being the only consistent theory in action. This, plus my inexperience with this particular format and 7 year absence has made this a real undertaking. Where do you awesome folks land on all of this?
The 1 or 2-ofs you keep seeing in lists is probably a portion of the flex slots that's tailored for the meta the pilots predicted for the event which they topped.
Generally, 2-ofs are often some kind of proactive tool that you want to see late-game. Very good examples of these are Thalia HC or Eldrazi Displacer (in mono-white without Temples).
1-ofs are often silver bullets, or 5th piece of disruption (Mindcensor being a good example, as you mentioned). Don't be too concerned about these numbers, the flex spots can both be full playsets or 1/2-ofs depending on how much power you'll sacrifice for flexibility. MTGO meta is very spread so lots of 1/2-ofs are a common sight when looking at top8 lists.
My only suggestion is that you should always run 4 copies of the cards in the core, I really don't like lists that cuts a Thalia, Wisp (or even Splicer) for extra removal or some random jank like Mana Tithe. Those cards, althought useful, belong in flex spots.
Against your listed meta, I think the 1 Mindcensor is a good include. If you're feeling ballsy you can also try out my idea of of running 4 Vryn Wingmare alongside Thalia, it actually looks very useful here (not enough data to tell the effectiveness of this in modern tho).
Sideboard teching is a bit harder, but I can offer a few suggestions. You should obviously have Forge-Tenders to counter burn/ponza, maybe 1-2 Blessed Alliance too in case of Stormbreath Dragon. Maybe Phyrexian Revoker can be effective if Ad Nauseam count is high, as they also double against Liliana, Last Hope which has seen increase in play after BBE unban (and this Lili is a lot worse than Veil). 1-of Eidolon of Rhetoric is good against BBE and storm.
Otherwise I think you can fill in the voids with the common stuff like Rip, Stony/Relic-Warder, div.removal.
The 1 or 2-ofs you keep seeing in lists is probably a portion of the flex slots that's tailored for the meta the pilots predicted for the event which they topped.
Generally, 2-ofs are often some kind of proactive tool that you want to see late-game. Very good examples of these are Thalia HC or Eldrazi Displacer (in mono-white without Temples).
1-ofs are often silver bullets, or 5th piece of disruption (Mindcensor being a good example, as you mentioned). Don't be too concerned about these numbers, the flex spots can both be full playsets or 1/2-ofs depending on how much power you'll sacrifice for flexibility. MTGO meta is very spread so lots of 1/2-ofs are a common sight when looking at top8 lists.
My only suggestion is that you should always run 4 copies of the cards in the core, I really don't like lists that cuts a Thalia, Wisp (or even Splicer) for extra removal or some random jank like Mana Tithe. Those cards, althought useful, belong in flex spots.
You just made sense out of what's been bugging me with all these Modern lists for over a month, thanks for breaking that down for me. In legacy the only 1-ofs we ran were equipment, which was a virtual 4 or 5-of due to Mystic, creatures as bullets with Recruiter was after my time. Seeing the duos lategame and singletons as a virtual 5th piece makes a lot of sense, and my eyes simply weren't communicating with my brain. Thankfully, I've long-since accepted that D&T (either modern or legacy) has a core component that shouldn't fiddled with, generally speaking.
Against your listed meta, I think the 1 Mindcensor is a good include. If you're feeling ballsy you can also try out my idea of of running 4 Vryn Wingmare alongside Thalia, it actually looks very useful here (not enough data to tell the effectiveness of this in modern tho).
I'm working on two lists right now, and one will sport both a singleton Mindcensor and 1-4 Vryns alongside more taxing elements (sass) and less beater elements (sass without the 's,' as in Splicer/Avenger/etc). I just need to grab a stack of the flying horsies before I finish it. I'm probably going to fill the flex spots with some Revokers, Tithe, and maybe a fifth piece of removal. I've been combing through the last 7 years of decklists looking for synergies and old strategies that may be once again viable in my current meta. I appreciate this forum's experience and direction in that.
After spending an absurd amount of time theory-crafting and scrapping lists, I managed to find a list I was pretty comfortable with and piloted to the top 8, landing 4th place out of 57 people.
I didn't take great notes cause I was tired and only got progressively more tired as the night wore on, as we start at 7PM and folks usually play it out due to high turnout each week & full prize payout. I'll do a better job recording next time, but below is the matchups with any impressions I can recall.
Round 1: Esper Spirits 2-1
He's a pretty skilled player that gets bored with standardized lists. He's got more of a stock Spirits build with heavier removal and some jank in the form of Zur, The Enchanter with a few bullets like Steel of the Godhead and Detention Sphere. The games were super-grindy and saw violent swings in life totals. He'd stabilize with a Geist of Saint Traft after Pushes and PTE wiped my board state, but Finks, Inspector, and Flickerwisp/Angel would routinely push me back into the green and neuter his plays with combat tricks. My sideboard wasn't a ton of help, but I remember throwing in my 3rd Crusader for a Looter Scooter and beating face. I misread Dusk / Dawn when I put it in my sideboard and wished it was a Doj/*** all night, as I often had nothing but 3-power creatures in play on my side, with 2-power dorks on his side, with no upside to /Dawn. Maybe I just boarded wrong, but I cinched game 3 by gaining a billion life off recuring/flickering Finks and double-striking my way to victory.
Round 2: Jund 0-2
Game 1 I almost got there, but he stabilized with Scooze and patiently played through my mana denial and made good decisions with his Bolts on my Crusader(s). Crusader is obviously a house here, I just wish Paladin En-Vec had double-strike. Game 2 I brought in 3 Relics and 2 Firewalkers to handle his Goofys and act as a pseudo Clue token and blank his Bolts. I wished my Firewalkers were Auriok Champions the whole night due to the Pushes/Bolts being the most prevalent spells in my meta. Game 2 he kept a 2-lander with Bob and 3 BBE. He didn't flip a single spell with Bob and played all 3 BBE's. I died in a fire, but he's a great Jund pilot.
Round 3: Grixis Death's shadow 2-1 Gurmag Angler got blocked all day Games 1-3 and most of his army couldn't block my Crusaders, or block them and live, anyway. The 3rd Crusader and 3 relics came in for the last 2 games. Game 2 he gets there with Liliana making me sacrifice my sole surviving creature. Game 3 I played tighter and more conservatively, grinding it out with (my) EOT Flickerwisp off vial 2 turns in a row to turn off his remaining black source after vialing in an Arbiter in response to his fetchland / my Quarters. The salt was real and he dropped.
Round 4: U/R Gifts Storm 2-0
Games 1 and 2 played out exactly the same during the first 2 turns. T1 Vial > T2 Inspector off Vial and play Thalia > he can't gain ground. Game 2 Eidolon came down and he bolted it and I said "sure, resolves." He tried putting the Eidolon in the graveyard when I reminded him it was a 1/4. He posed no threat and I beat him up with golems and flyers for the win. Feels good, man.
Round 5: Mono Green Tron 2-1
Missed a vial trigger game 1 like I didn't have years of D&T experience and it cost me the game. When I went to vial in Arbiter in response to Expedition Map. He Ugin'd and pooped on me. Games 2 and 3 were different and Finks did work post-Pyroclasms while his Tron pieces got Flickered during my end step / destroyed. I didn't know what to sideboard so 3 Relics came in, which just became Clue tokens, drawing me gas.
Round 6: Intentional draw into T8.
Round 1 of Top 8: 1-2 Mardu Pyromancer
This was the most fun I'd had in MTG in a long time (7 years to be exact). He was a joyful, pleasant opponent that shared banter with me as we got loopier and loopier as the night wore on (around 1:30 AM at this point). My inexperience in the format and first time seeing Mardu Pyromancer got me game 1 when he K-Commanded my Blade Splicer & Golem token in response to trying to Wisp it. Game 2 I got there off a Turn 3 and 4 Crusader. Game 3 I got him to 4 life when he looted 2 Lingering Souls and flashed them back, with no way for me to overcome his growing army, despite PTEing 2 Pyromancers and 1 Reveler. I ain't even mad.
Takeaways: Thraben Inspector is absurd. If I ever do include Judge's Familiar or Dryad Militant in the main, it will be in addition to Inspectors. I stopped counting at 15 cards drawn off that critter through the course of the night. The P/T was useful more than once against tokens and he was just a one-way ticket to value town. Mirran Crusader was a good call. I want to run 3 MB. Kitchen Finks was okay. Never quite useless, never quite the bomb, resilient and helpful occasionally. Maybe he should live in the sideboard or I should find more ways to abuse him, ala Eldrazi Displacer.
My manabase was tighter than a crab's rear-end and gave me no fits, but I think I'd rather have a 2/2 split Field of Ruin and Tectonic Edge or Mutavault.
Overall, a good first foray back into D&T.
@t3hwo0ki3 any changes you'd made for the future? what were your losses and what matches you think you were about to lose?
I answer both of those questions if you click the Tournament Button in my above post, just FYI. But my losses were Jund and Mardu, and I felt like I might lose the Mono Green Tron matchup after my misplay in Game 1. Tron can overwhelm us quickly, even through LD, if we make a stupid error.
I felt pretty good in the other matchups, and a lot of my Ls came from misplays and keeping suboptimal hands. Aggressively mulliganing, utilizing my Canopies, and watching for card interactions more carefully will help shore those up down the line. Well, that and time I guess.
Wich one between Arbiter and Thalia is the best to play on turn two? Is it an absolute rule (i think not) and when you shoud do differently?
Thx!
It depends heavily on the match up and what has been played by that point. You need to identify which will have more impact at the time and over the entire game. Take into account if any uncracked fetchs are on the board and what your opponents game plan will be. Decks that play less fetches and more non creature spells like Storm are where Thalia will usually be the choice. Decks like grixis or Jeski control with lots of fetchs Arbiter can be better first. Then you have decks like Deaths Shadow where it depends completely on what has happened up to that point and decks like Humans where both are fairly bad.
These are of course just my general guidelines and are in no way hard rules. Each game is unique and you have to make the decision on what will have more impact. Also if you think they have removal you can always try to bait it out with the one you think you need less but that has its own risk.
After spending an absurd amount of time theory-crafting and scrapping lists, I managed to find a list I was pretty comfortable with and piloted to the top 8, landing 4th place out of 57 people.
I didn't take great notes cause I was tired and only got progressively more tired as the night wore on, as we start at 7PM and folks usually play it out due to high turnout each week & full prize payout. I'll do a better job recording next time, but below is the matchups with any impressions I can recall.
Round 1: Esper Spirits 2-1
He's a pretty skilled player that gets bored with standardized lists. He's got more of a stock Spirits build with heavier removal and some jank in the form of Zur, The Enchanter with a few bullets like Steel of the Godhead and Detention Sphere. The games were super-grindy and saw violent swings in life totals. He'd stabilize with a Geist of Saint Traft after Pushes and PTE wiped my board state, but Finks, Inspector, and Flickerwisp/Angel would routinely push me back into the green and neuter his plays with combat tricks. My sideboard wasn't a ton of help, but I remember throwing in my 3rd Crusader for a Looter Scooter and beating face. I misread Dusk / Dawn when I put it in my sideboard and wished it was a Doj/*** all night, as I often had nothing but 3-power creatures in play on my side, with 2-power dorks on his side, with no upside to /Dawn. Maybe I just boarded wrong, but I cinched game 3 by gaining a billion life off recuring/flickering Finks and double-striking my way to victory.
Round 2: Jund 0-2
Game 1 I almost got there, but he stabilized with Scooze and patiently played through my mana denial and made good decisions with his Bolts on my Crusader(s). Crusader is obviously a house here, I just wish Paladin En-Vec had double-strike. Game 2 I brought in 3 Relics and 2 Firewalkers to handle his Goofys and act as a pseudo Clue token and blank his Bolts. I wished my Firewalkers were Auriok Champions the whole night due to the Pushes/Bolts being the most prevalent spells in my meta. Game 2 he kept a 2-lander with Bob and 3 BBE. He didn't flip a single spell with Bob and played all 3 BBE's. I died in a fire, but he's a great Jund pilot.
Round 3: Grixis Death's shadow 2-1 Gurmag Angler got blocked all day Games 1-3 and most of his army couldn't block my Crusaders, or block them and live, anyway. The 3rd Crusader and 3 relics came in for the last 2 games. Game 2 he gets there with Liliana making me sacrifice my sole surviving creature. Game 3 I played tighter and more conservatively, grinding it out with (my) EOT Flickerwisp off vial 2 turns in a row to turn off his remaining black source after vialing in an Arbiter in response to his fetchland / my Quarters. The salt was real and he dropped.
Round 4: U/R Gifts Storm 2-0
Games 1 and 2 played out exactly the same during the first 2 turns. T1 Vial > T2 Inspector off Vial and play Thalia > he can't gain ground. Game 2 Eidolon came down and he bolted it and I said "sure, resolves." He tried putting the Eidolon in the graveyard when I reminded him it was a 1/4. He posed no threat and I beat him up with golems and flyers for the win. Feels good, man.
Round 5: Mono Green Tron 2-1
Missed a vial trigger game 1 like I didn't have years of D&T experience and it cost me the game. When I went to vial in Arbiter in response to Expedition Map. He Ugin'd and pooped on me. Games 2 and 3 were different and Finks did work post-Pyroclasms while his Tron pieces got Flickered during my end step / destroyed. I didn't know what to sideboard so 3 Relics came in, which just became Clue tokens, drawing me gas.
Round 6: Intentional draw into T8.
Round 1 of Top 8: 1-2 Mardu Pyromancer
This was the most fun I'd had in MTG in a long time (7 years to be exact). He was a joyful, pleasant opponent that shared banter with me as we got loopier and loopier as the night wore on (around 1:30 AM at this point). My inexperience in the format and first time seeing Mardu Pyromancer got me game 1 when he K-Commanded my Blade Splicer & Golem token in response to trying to Wisp it. Game 2 I got there off a Turn 3 and 4 Crusader. Game 3 I got him to 4 life when he looted 2 Lingering Souls and flashed them back, with no way for me to overcome his growing army, despite PTEing 2 Pyromancers and 1 Reveler. I ain't even mad.
Takeaways: Thraben Inspector is absurd. If I ever do include Judge's Familiar or Dryad Militant in the main, it will be in addition to Inspectors. I stopped counting at 15 cards drawn off that critter through the course of the night. The P/T was useful more than once against tokens and he was just a one-way ticket to value town. Mirran Crusader was a good call. I want to run 3 MB. Kitchen Finks was okay. Never quite useless, never quite the bomb, resilient and helpful occasionally. Maybe he should live in the sideboard or I should find more ways to abuse him, ala Eldrazi Displacer.
My manabase was tighter than a crab's rear-end and gave me no fits, but I think I'd rather have a 2/2 split Field of Ruin and Tectonic Edge or Mutavault.
Overall, a good first foray back into D&T.
The report was a good read, glad you found a list to your liking : ) I'm quite surprised Mirran Crusader keep seing so much success in a bolt format.. I suppose I'll have to bite the bullet and try it out more myself!
Mardu, or tokens in general, is in my experience quite hard to deal with. For this reason Declaration in Stone has almost become a stapled 1-2 of in my sideboards. Wether this is right or wrong I can't say, these decks are quite rare to face after all, but I do like the ability to occasionally stomp multiple Death's Shadows or the like.
I'm also a bit surprised you didn't have any artifact hate in the board, was it intentional?
was in a lot of my matchups, but so was Fatal Push. So it's really 50/50 for me at this point, but the 4 point life swings and occasionally 1-sided survivability in combat, at least in my meta, is super attractive. I'm actually looking at Auriok Champions in the board over the Kor Firewalkers, as well as some jank in the form of Fiendslayer Paladin and Stillmoon Cavalier. It really depends on just how many Bolts/Pushes I run into in the coming weeks.
I totally missed Declaration in Stone even existing, so I'm going to pick a few up for my board as well. There were enough tokens and duplicates on the board more than once to make that a good effect. Worst case, you just pop your own dead in the water critters and hope for the best.
I originally had Fragmentize and Kataki, War's Wage in the board, but made room for more removal after seeing only 1 Affinity deck and tons of other decks with targets for that removal. I didn't run into any artifacts that had to be killed, but I can see the benefit against opposing vials and even slowing down Tron's cantrips. Besides, landing either those against Lantern would be hilarious.
That list is way distinct from dnt, although he call it that. It's very similar to GW Hatebears (replacing G for U) There's no Flickerwisp, but it's a good video to watch and think about serum visions.
The scenarios are just something to think about and no hard rules. For example vs infect you would almost always lead with thalia and vs tron arbiter is crucial in blanking expedition map and sylvan scrying. I would be very interested on the sequencing thoughts of the other more experienced players here.
Arbiter is better than thalia against only if you're on the play and he plays expedition map at turn 1. Otherwise, Thalia is the best choice because they won't be able to play other eggs (unless he timewalks himself) or even cast sylvan scrying at turn 2. And if they have 2 pieces with a map to bring the third, Thalia is still best because they won't be able to cast Karn Liberated with 7.
Being able to hit Thalia, a silver bullet from SB, or even a legendary land (Flagstones/Eiganjo) makes me think it can be a nice addition to up the deck's consistency. I don't think it's insane since it's 2 mana (or even 3 with Thalia in play), but I'm really interested in testing some copies.
Being able to hit Thalia, a silver bullet from SB, or even a legendary land (Flagstones/Eiganjo) makes me think it can be a nice addition to up the deck's consistency. I don't think it's insane since it's 2 mana (or even 3 with Thalia in play), but I'm really interested in testing some copies.
That could actually be pretty absurd for us under the right circumstances, and I agree on its post-board usefulness. Like Legacy D&T sporting Enlightened Tutor and a stack of silver bullets. While it can whiff on what you're aiming for, it's likely you'll find something, and it doesn't care about our Arbiters/Heretics/Mindcensors. If any of the Sagas are good it can be even stronger, so I'm excited to at least test.
Speaking of testing, here's the list I'm going to be running in a 55-person-ish tourney tomorrow:
It's seeking to leverage a slightly different set of tools than last week, and is trying to have an asymmetrical approach to some of the board states and matchups I've seen over the last few months.
I'm sure this list will send some eyes twitching on this thread, but that's okay. Less than 4 PTE, Wisp, 1 Angel, and only 23 land is hard to get away from. Believe me, I've always had a hard time prying myself away from stock lists too. But I'm 4 cards off from the core overall, without much of a loss in consistency with my gameplan.
My experience with Oust from legacy was a touch different in a field awash with highly tuned and aggressive lists (Affinity/Gobs/Delver/etc). Basically, it's PTE #5-6 if we have a library denial bear (Arbiter/Mindcensor) and blow up a land with Quarter / Field after resolving it. It puts our opponnent in the unenviable position of choosing to get their dude back 2 turns from now or pay the tax to get their land. In the earlier turns it slows them down further (as far as casting stuff) if they are relying on fetches to develop their board position. It's funny when they delve to throw out an Angler or Tasigur and don't have enough in the 'yard to delve again 2 turns from now.
Worst case, sometimes I'll just Oust one of my own dorks with an ETB effect for the lifegain and for another chance at the ability (like a Finks with a -1/-1 counter on it), which has saved me in the past. Against decks that are creature-light, it's an easy thing to sideboard out for more beefy fare, but is rarely completely useless for it's ability to (slowly) recycle some of our critters.
The sideboard is mostly self-explanatory, but the Ghostly Prisons are for tokens and hyper-aggressive lists. I leaned away from Dawn / Dusk because Prison comes down a turn sooner, is easier to cast, and for the constant tax it places on them - a tax they potentially can't play if mana denial is working.
The set of protection bears is a nod towards Jund, U/R/x, Burn, and Shadow lists running amok. The singleton Worship is most certainly jank, but capable of stealing the win against the right board state.
Provided I don't scrub out in the first 4 rounds, I'll throw down a tourney report late tomorrow night or early Wednesday.
That list is way distinct from dnt, although he call it that. It's very similar to GW Hatebears (replacing G for U) There's no Flickerwisp, but it's a good video to watch and think about serum visions.
Not to get too caught up on semantics, but I have to disagree on the archetype classification here. I don't think a deck has to run Flickerwisp to be considered D&T, but rather has to follow the core theme of playing a tempo/disruption gameplan through use of one sided taxing effects (thanks to vial). Wisp is great at doing that, but it isn't the only way to do so! There's a lot more to D&T than flicker abuse
Hatebears (as far as I know) wants to play more of a beatdown game, using mana dorks to ramp out bigger threats to apply pressure. I don't think they want to be spending turn 1 playing Serum Visions or holding up 3 mana midgame for a tempo Spell Queller, or even sacrificing 1 or 2 Selfless Spirit to keep a Geist of Saint Traft alive just long enough to win you the game.
Looks like I actually need 13 white and 13 black sources (and 20 colored lands total) to reliably hit BW on turn 2. The only way I see to achieve this is to cut out my tectonic edges, but that feels really bad. The mana denial plan is extra important without eldrazi to hasten the clock! Maybe I have to look into using a third dual land like caves of koilos? But that breaks the math of having 20 colored lands
And now I'm finding I can't hit that 20 mark at all. Even after going to 23 lands. Are we allowed to consider aether vial here to help us cheat our mana? I thought cutting the eldrazi would improve my manabase D:
“Modern has provided us a non-rotating format that is far more accessible than Legacy or Vintage, but still retains many of the qualities that people enjoy in those formats—such as a more stable metagame, the ability to play and tweak the same deck week after week, and simply a much more powerful card pool than Standard.”
- Sam Stoddard, “Developing Modern” (June 21, 2013) (by means of Sheridan Lardner, "Fixing Modern: Defining Format Mission (March 16, 2016))
That legendary angel spoiled today is busted. Not having flash a a drawback but it seems like a resonable cure topper to split with resto. It stops quite a few combo decks, protects our taxers if timed correctly, and provides powerful lategame. The down side is that you need vial on 4 to make the most use out of it. I will probably play one maindeck and splash a little more green in my mana base.
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Anyone have any thoughts on this sort of list?
I was inspired by the Gemstone Caverns U/W build a saw floating around a while ago. Thought that perhaps speed was what could help in the Red Splash.
Looks like I actually need 13 white and 13 black sources (and 20 colored lands total) to reliably hit BW on turn 2. The only way I see to achieve this is to cut out my tectonic edges, but that feels really bad. The mana denial plan is extra important without eldrazi to hasten the clock! Maybe I have to look into using a third dual land like caves of koilos? But that breaks the math of having 20 colored lands
And now I'm finding I can't hit that 20 mark at all. Even after going to 23 lands. Are we allowed to consider aether vial here to help us cheat our mana? I thought cutting the eldrazi would improve my manabase D:
That legendary angel spoiled today is busted. Not having flash a a drawback but it seems like a resonable cure topper to split with resto. It stops quite a few combo decks, protects our taxers if timed correctly, and provides powerful lategame. The down side is that you need vial on 4 to make the most use out of it. I will probably play one maindeck and splash a little more green in my mana base.
I don't think it's particularly busted but I think it's a good card and a potential a 1-of in the 75.
That list is way distinct from dnt, although he call it that. It's very similar to GW Hatebears (replacing G for U) There's no Flickerwisp, but it's a good video to watch and think about serum visions.
Not to get too caught up on semantics, but I have to disagree on the archetype classification here. I don't think a deck has to run Flickerwisp to be considered D&T, but rather has to follow the core theme of playing a tempo/disruption gameplan through use of one sided taxing effects (thanks to vial). Wisp is great at doing that, but it isn't the only way to do so! There's a lot more to D&T than flicker abuse
Hatebears (as far as I know) wants to play more of a beatdown game, using mana dorks to ramp out bigger threats to apply pressure. I don't think they want to be spending turn 1 playing Serum Visions or holding up 3 mana midgame for a tempo Spell Queller, or even sacrificing 1 or 2 Selfless Spirit to keep a Geist of Saint Traft alive just long enough to win you the game.
For me, setting Geist/Mirran Crusader up isn't a disruption but a beatdown plan. That's the main reason I would think it'd be more like a hatebear than dnt deck. Flickerwisp is a core of dnt and without it, it's a hatebear deck imo. I guess his idea of playing is setting up a bear at turn two and a beater in turn three. In fact, is what we can see in his videos.
That was a very good scientific poll
And on the topic of mono white, I retract my previous distractions about a B/W build. I think it ended up being a worse 5C humans and a worse D&T, not racing fast enough and not disrupting hard enough. As always I return to mono white, humbled but hopefully having learned something. Never leave home without your 10 copies of land destruction! Ghost Quarter Tectonic Edge Field of Ruin are all-stars and splashes aren't worth giving them up!
Generally, 2-ofs are often some kind of proactive tool that you want to see late-game. Very good examples of these are Thalia HC or Eldrazi Displacer (in mono-white without Temples).
1-ofs are often silver bullets, or 5th piece of disruption (Mindcensor being a good example, as you mentioned). Don't be too concerned about these numbers, the flex spots can both be full playsets or 1/2-ofs depending on how much power you'll sacrifice for flexibility. MTGO meta is very spread so lots of 1/2-ofs are a common sight when looking at top8 lists.
My only suggestion is that you should always run 4 copies of the cards in the core, I really don't like lists that cuts a Thalia, Wisp (or even Splicer) for extra removal or some random jank like Mana Tithe. Those cards, althought useful, belong in flex spots.
Against your listed meta, I think the 1 Mindcensor is a good include. If you're feeling ballsy you can also try out my idea of of running 4 Vryn Wingmare alongside Thalia, it actually looks very useful here (not enough data to tell the effectiveness of this in modern tho).
Sideboard teching is a bit harder, but I can offer a few suggestions. You should obviously have Forge-Tenders to counter burn/ponza, maybe 1-2 Blessed Alliance too in case of Stormbreath Dragon. Maybe Phyrexian Revoker can be effective if Ad Nauseam count is high, as they also double against Liliana, Last Hope which has seen increase in play after BBE unban (and this Lili is a lot worse than Veil). 1-of Eidolon of Rhetoric is good against BBE and storm.
Otherwise I think you can fill in the voids with the common stuff like Rip, Stony/Relic-Warder, div.removal.
Legacy: Death'n'Taxes
You just made sense out of what's been bugging me with all these Modern lists for over a month, thanks for breaking that down for me. In legacy the only 1-ofs we ran were equipment, which was a virtual 4 or 5-of due to Mystic, creatures as bullets with Recruiter was after my time. Seeing the duos lategame and singletons as a virtual 5th piece makes a lot of sense, and my eyes simply weren't communicating with my brain. Thankfully, I've long-since accepted that D&T (either modern or legacy) has a core component that shouldn't fiddled with, generally speaking.
I'm working on two lists right now, and one will sport both a singleton Mindcensor and 1-4 Vryns alongside more taxing elements (sass) and less beater elements (sass without the 's,' as in Splicer/Avenger/etc). I just need to grab a stack of the flying horsies before I finish it. I'm probably going to fill the flex spots with some Revokers, Tithe, and maybe a fifth piece of removal. I've been combing through the last 7 years of decklists looking for synergies and old strategies that may be once again viable in my current meta. I appreciate this forum's experience and direction in that.
After spending an absurd amount of time theory-crafting and scrapping lists, I managed to find a list I was pretty comfortable with and piloted to the top 8, landing 4th place out of 57 people.
The list itself:
2 Mirran Crusader
3 Kitchen Finks
3 Blade Splicer
3 Restoration Angel
4 Thraben Inspector
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Flickerwisp
4 Path to Exile
Artifacts: 6
2 Smuggler's Copter
4 Aether Vial
Land: 23
1 Eiganjo Castle
3 Horizon Canopy
3 Tectonic Edge
4 Ghost Quarter
12 Plains
1 Dismember
2 Sunlance
2 Dusk / Dawn
2 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Relic of Progenitus
1 Mirran Crusader
2 Eidolon of Rhetoric
2 Kor Firewalker
Round 1: Esper Spirits 2-1
He's a pretty skilled player that gets bored with standardized lists. He's got more of a stock Spirits build with heavier removal and some jank in the form of Zur, The Enchanter with a few bullets like Steel of the Godhead and Detention Sphere. The games were super-grindy and saw violent swings in life totals. He'd stabilize with a Geist of Saint Traft after Pushes and PTE wiped my board state, but Finks, Inspector, and Flickerwisp/Angel would routinely push me back into the green and neuter his plays with combat tricks. My sideboard wasn't a ton of help, but I remember throwing in my 3rd Crusader for a Looter Scooter and beating face. I misread Dusk / Dawn when I put it in my sideboard and wished it was a Doj/*** all night, as I often had nothing but 3-power creatures in play on my side, with 2-power dorks on his side, with no upside to /Dawn. Maybe I just boarded wrong, but I cinched game 3 by gaining a billion life off recuring/flickering Finks and double-striking my way to victory.
Round 2: Jund 0-2
Game 1 I almost got there, but he stabilized with Scooze and patiently played through my mana denial and made good decisions with his Bolts on my Crusader(s). Crusader is obviously a house here, I just wish Paladin En-Vec had double-strike. Game 2 I brought in 3 Relics and 2 Firewalkers to handle his Goofys and act as a pseudo Clue token and blank his Bolts. I wished my Firewalkers were Auriok Champions the whole night due to the Pushes/Bolts being the most prevalent spells in my meta. Game 2 he kept a 2-lander with Bob and 3 BBE. He didn't flip a single spell with Bob and played all 3 BBE's. I died in a fire, but he's a great Jund pilot.
Round 3: Grixis Death's shadow 2-1
Gurmag Angler got blocked all day Games 1-3 and most of his army couldn't block my Crusaders, or block them and live, anyway. The 3rd Crusader and 3 relics came in for the last 2 games. Game 2 he gets there with Liliana making me sacrifice my sole surviving creature. Game 3 I played tighter and more conservatively, grinding it out with (my) EOT Flickerwisp off vial 2 turns in a row to turn off his remaining black source after vialing in an Arbiter in response to his fetchland / my Quarters. The salt was real and he dropped.
Round 4: U/R Gifts Storm 2-0
Games 1 and 2 played out exactly the same during the first 2 turns. T1 Vial > T2 Inspector off Vial and play Thalia > he can't gain ground. Game 2 Eidolon came down and he bolted it and I said "sure, resolves." He tried putting the Eidolon in the graveyard when I reminded him it was a 1/4. He posed no threat and I beat him up with golems and flyers for the win. Feels good, man.
Round 5: Mono Green Tron 2-1
Missed a vial trigger game 1 like I didn't have years of D&T experience and it cost me the game. When I went to vial in Arbiter in response to Expedition Map. He Ugin'd and pooped on me. Games 2 and 3 were different and Finks did work post-Pyroclasms while his Tron pieces got Flickered during my end step / destroyed. I didn't know what to sideboard so 3 Relics came in, which just became Clue tokens, drawing me gas.
Round 6: Intentional draw into T8.
Round 1 of Top 8: 1-2 Mardu Pyromancer
This was the most fun I'd had in MTG in a long time (7 years to be exact). He was a joyful, pleasant opponent that shared banter with me as we got loopier and loopier as the night wore on (around 1:30 AM at this point). My inexperience in the format and first time seeing Mardu Pyromancer got me game 1 when he K-Commanded my Blade Splicer & Golem token in response to trying to Wisp it. Game 2 I got there off a Turn 3 and 4 Crusader. Game 3 I got him to 4 life when he looted 2 Lingering Souls and flashed them back, with no way for me to overcome his growing army, despite PTEing 2 Pyromancers and 1 Reveler. I ain't even mad.
Takeaways:
Thraben Inspector is absurd. If I ever do include Judge's Familiar or Dryad Militant in the main, it will be in addition to Inspectors. I stopped counting at 15 cards drawn off that critter through the course of the night. The P/T was useful more than once against tokens and he was just a one-way ticket to value town.
Mirran Crusader was a good call. I want to run 3 MB.
Kitchen Finks was okay. Never quite useless, never quite the bomb, resilient and helpful occasionally. Maybe he should live in the sideboard or I should find more ways to abuse him, ala Eldrazi Displacer.
My manabase was tighter than a crab's rear-end and gave me no fits, but I think I'd rather have a 2/2 split Field of Ruin and Tectonic Edge or Mutavault.
Overall, a good first foray back into D&T.
WW Death & Taxes
GG Control
RR Skred Red
I answer both of those questions if you click the Tournament Button in my above post, just FYI. But my losses were Jund and Mardu, and I felt like I might lose the Mono Green Tron matchup after my misplay in Game 1. Tron can overwhelm us quickly, even through LD, if we make a stupid error.
I felt pretty good in the other matchups, and a lot of my Ls came from misplays and keeping suboptimal hands. Aggressively mulliganing, utilizing my Canopies, and watching for card interactions more carefully will help shore those up down the line. Well, that and time I guess.
WW Death & Taxes
GG Control
RR Skred Red
It depends heavily on the match up and what has been played by that point. You need to identify which will have more impact at the time and over the entire game. Take into account if any uncracked fetchs are on the board and what your opponents game plan will be. Decks that play less fetches and more non creature spells like Storm are where Thalia will usually be the choice. Decks like grixis or Jeski control with lots of fetchs Arbiter can be better first. Then you have decks like Deaths Shadow where it depends completely on what has happened up to that point and decks like Humans where both are fairly bad.
These are of course just my general guidelines and are in no way hard rules. Each game is unique and you have to make the decision on what will have more impact. Also if you think they have removal you can always try to bait it out with the one you think you need less but that has its own risk.
Hope this helps.
As always his content is super informative. Enjoy
Mardu, or tokens in general, is in my experience quite hard to deal with. For this reason Declaration in Stone has almost become a stapled 1-2 of in my sideboards. Wether this is right or wrong I can't say, these decks are quite rare to face after all, but I do like the ability to occasionally stomp multiple Death's Shadows or the like.
I'm also a bit surprised you didn't have any artifact hate in the board, was it intentional?
Legacy: Death'n'Taxes
I totally missed Declaration in Stone even existing, so I'm going to pick a few up for my board as well. There were enough tokens and duplicates on the board more than once to make that a good effect. Worst case, you just pop your own dead in the water critters and hope for the best.
I originally had Fragmentize and Kataki, War's Wage in the board, but made room for more removal after seeing only 1 Affinity deck and tons of other decks with targets for that removal. I didn't run into any artifacts that had to be killed, but I can see the benefit against opposing vials and even slowing down Tron's cantrips. Besides, landing either those against Lantern would be hilarious.
Thanks!
WW Death & Taxes
GG Control
RR Skred Red
Arbiter is better than thalia against only if you're on the play and he plays expedition map at turn 1. Otherwise, Thalia is the best choice because they won't be able to play other eggs (unless he timewalks himself) or even cast sylvan scrying at turn 2. And if they have 2 pieces with a map to bring the third, Thalia is still best because they won't be able to cast Karn Liberated with 7.
http://mythicspoiler.com/dom/cards/boardtheweatherlight.html
Being able to hit Thalia, a silver bullet from SB, or even a legendary land (Flagstones/Eiganjo) makes me think it can be a nice addition to up the deck's consistency. I don't think it's insane since it's 2 mana (or even 3 with Thalia in play), but I'm really interested in testing some copies.
Legacy: Death'n'Taxes
That could actually be pretty absurd for us under the right circumstances, and I agree on its post-board usefulness. Like Legacy D&T sporting Enlightened Tutor and a stack of silver bullets. While it can whiff on what you're aiming for, it's likely you'll find something, and it doesn't care about our Arbiters/Heretics/Mindcensors. If any of the Sagas are good it can be even stronger, so I'm excited to at least test.
Speaking of testing, here's the list I'm going to be running in a 55-person-ish tourney tomorrow:
3x Blade Splicer
2x Eldrazi Displacer
2x Aven Mindcensor
3x Flickerwisp
2x Kitchen Finks
4x Leonin Arbiter
1x Restoration Angel
4x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2x Thalia, Heretic Cathar
3x Thraben Inspector
2x Oust
4x Path to Exile
Artifacts: 6
4x Aether Vial
2x Smuggler's Copter
Lands: 22
1x Eiganjo Castle
2x Field of Ruin
4x Ghost Quarter
3x Horizon Canopy
8x Plains
2x Shefet Dunes
2x Tectonic Edge
2x Auriok Champion
2x Eidolon of Rhetoric
2x Ghostly Prison
2x Mirran Crusader
1x Dismember
2x Rest in Peace
1x Restoration Angel
2x Stony Silence
1x Worship
I'm sure this list will send some eyes twitching on this thread, but that's okay. Less than 4 PTE, Wisp, 1 Angel, and only 23 land is hard to get away from. Believe me, I've always had a hard time prying myself away from stock lists too. But I'm 4 cards off from the core overall, without much of a loss in consistency with my gameplan.
My experience with Oust from legacy was a touch different in a field awash with highly tuned and aggressive lists (Affinity/Gobs/Delver/etc). Basically, it's PTE #5-6 if we have a library denial bear (Arbiter/Mindcensor) and blow up a land with Quarter / Field after resolving it. It puts our opponnent in the unenviable position of choosing to get their dude back 2 turns from now or pay the tax to get their land. In the earlier turns it slows them down further (as far as casting stuff) if they are relying on fetches to develop their board position. It's funny when they delve to throw out an Angler or Tasigur and don't have enough in the 'yard to delve again 2 turns from now.
Worst case, sometimes I'll just Oust one of my own dorks with an ETB effect for the lifegain and for another chance at the ability (like a Finks with a -1/-1 counter on it), which has saved me in the past. Against decks that are creature-light, it's an easy thing to sideboard out for more beefy fare, but is rarely completely useless for it's ability to (slowly) recycle some of our critters.
The sideboard is mostly self-explanatory, but the Ghostly Prisons are for tokens and hyper-aggressive lists. I leaned away from Dawn / Dusk because Prison comes down a turn sooner, is easier to cast, and for the constant tax it places on them - a tax they potentially can't play if mana denial is working.
The set of protection bears is a nod towards Jund, U/R/x, Burn, and Shadow lists running amok. The singleton Worship is most certainly jank, but capable of stealing the win against the right board state.
Provided I don't scrub out in the first 4 rounds, I'll throw down a tourney report late tomorrow night or early Wednesday.
WW Death & Taxes
GG Control
RR Skred Red
Not to get too caught up on semantics, but I have to disagree on the archetype classification here. I don't think a deck has to run Flickerwisp to be considered D&T, but rather has to follow the core theme of playing a tempo/disruption gameplan through use of one sided taxing effects (thanks to vial). Wisp is great at doing that, but it isn't the only way to do so! There's a lot more to D&T than flicker abuse
Hatebears (as far as I know) wants to play more of a beatdown game, using mana dorks to ramp out bigger threats to apply pressure. I don't think they want to be spending turn 1 playing Serum Visions or holding up 3 mana midgame for a tempo Spell Queller, or even sacrificing 1 or 2 Selfless Spirit to keep a Geist of Saint Traft alive just long enough to win you the game.
4 Thraben Inspector
4 Dark Confidant
4 Leonin Arbiter
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Flickerwisp
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
3 Smuggler's Copter
3 Lingering Souls
Lands:23
4 Caves of Koilos
4 Concealed Courtyard
1 Fetid Heath
4 Ghost Quarter
3 Godless Shrine
2 Plains
1 Swamp
4 Tectonic Edge
- Sam Stoddard, “Developing Modern” (June 21, 2013) (by means of Sheridan Lardner, "Fixing Modern: Defining Format Mission (March 16, 2016))
How to Use Spoiler Tags
Starting Over: The Origins of the Mulligan Rule
Practical Approach to Slow Play
THE Guide to Aggro, Part 2: SWARM and TOOLBOX
THE Guide to Aggro, Part 3
THE Guide to Aggro, Part 4
These videos are by MTG Salvation Moderator Lantern!
Introduction to Tempo
Controlling Tempo
Elements of Tempo
Roadblocks to Tempo
How Not To Build A Deck - Tempo
Learn How To Sideboard, Dammit!
Mulligan's Island
The Art of the Mulligan
The Art of the Mulligan: Eight Case Studies
Fundamentals: The Mulligan
Some Mulligan Exercises
A Mulligan Is Worth Three Cards
The Mulligan Debate
Common Sense: The Art of the Mulligan
Who's The Beatdown?
3 Caves of Koilos
3 Eldrazi Temple
2 Fetid Heath
3 Godless Shrine
4 Ghost Quarter
3 Plains
3 Shambling Vent
2 Tectonic Edge
Artifacts (4):
4 Æther Vial
4 Path to Exile
Creatures (29):
3 Aven Mindcensor
3 Eldrazi Displacer
3 Fiend Hunter
4 Flickerwisp
4 Serra Avenger
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Thought-Knot Seer
3 Tidehollow Sculler
3 Wasteland Strangler
3 Chalice of the Void
2 Dismember
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Rest in Peace
3 Stony Silence
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Flooded Strand
6 Island
3 Polluted Delta
3 Steam Vents
3 Sulfur Falls
Creatures (16):
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Stormchaser Mage
2 Gut Shot
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Mutagenic Growth
3 Spell Pierce
3 Twisted Image
3 Vapor Snag
Sorceries (8):
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Serum Visions
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Blood Moon
2 Dispel
1 Forked Bolt
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Repeal
2 Roast
1 Spell Snare
2 Spellskite
1 Vapor Snag
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Clifftop Retreat
1 Copperline Gorge
5 Mountain
3 Sacred Foundry
2 Stomping Ground
4 Wooded Foothills
Creatures (14):
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
4 Goblin Guide
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Atarka's Command
4 Boros Charm
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Lightning Helix
3 Searing Blaze
Sorceries (8):
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
2 Deflecting Palm
4 Destructive Revelry
2 Kor Firewalker
2 Path to Exile
2 Rending Volley
3 Skullcrack
19 Forest
3 Treetop Village
Creatures (24):
4 Avatar of the Resolute
4 Dryad Militant
2 Dungrove Elder
4 Experiment One
4 Leatherback Baloth
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Strangleroot Geist
4 Rancor
Instants (10):
3 Aspect of Hydra
4 Vines of Vastwood
3 Dismember
2 Choke
2 Gut Shot
2 Deglamer
2 Feed the Clan
2 Oxidize
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Skylasher
1 Unravel the Æther
4 Aether Vial
4 Chalice of the Void
//Creature (28)
2 Aven Mindcensor
2 Dire Fleet Daredevil
4 Judge's Familiar
4 Leonin Arbiter
2 Mirran Crusader
2 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
3 Vryn Wingmare
2 Dismember
//Land (22)
2 Field of Ruin
2 Gemstone Caverns
4 Ghost Quarter
2 Horizon Canopy
4 Inspiring Vantage
1 Mutavault
3 Plains
4 Sacred Foundry
1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
2 Kor Firewalker
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Rest in Peace
1 Settle the Wreckage
3 Stony Silence
Anyone have any thoughts on this sort of list?
I was inspired by the Gemstone Caverns U/W build a saw floating around a while ago. Thought that perhaps speed was what could help in the Red Splash.
Oooh I forgot about Fetid Heath! Thanks
However, I'm still not at that 20 colored land target Frank Karsten recommends for hitting WB on turn 2. But maybe fetid heath helps.
I don't think it's particularly busted but I think it's a good card and a potential a 1-of in the 75.
GBRJund Elves
GWDevoted Elves
WDeath & Taxes
GWUBRHumans
EDH:
GTitania, Protector of Argoth