@kingcards: In my most recent 4C list I ran both Rallier & Rider. I think Rallier has the potential to be a more powerful card in theory but it needs to be built around (3 colors max, lots of fetches / Ghost Quarter, good 2 CMC targets) and Revolt can be a little finnicky sometimes. Conversely Rider always gives you those quick, dependable, evasive beats. I haven't decided yet whether a WGu list or WGru is better positioned yet but they both seem strong in their own ways.
@dr. sanchez: The 4 ghost quarters haven't been a problem but I have had some T2 sequencing issues. I'm going to need to re-tool a bit. To be continued.
Thanks for the input on Rallier, guys. I think it can also be meta dependent, as 4x Cavern of Souls is incredibly important against counter spell decks. But against grindy GBx-esque decks, Rallier could be a total house. Reanimating stuff like Dark Confidant or Jace, Vryn's Prodigy sounds fun.
@Savage Hi, thx, it's been a while since I posted these. I'm still on Norin and tried all kinds of things in the meantime. I'm really sold on 4 Norin, as I always want him, but I also tried Berserker and like him too. I'm currently on 8 sisters, 2 Purphoros 8 removal...
I liked Mimic when I really maxed out on the token producers
For my own brew, I left Mimic by the wayside, bumped Norin up to a 2-of, and moved away from the Soul Sisters. The decks that gave me fits were the ones that grind you out with repeated discard or removal and then take over the game, and against those opponents, the Sisters' lifegain proved only to delay the inevitable loss. They're great against Burn and other red aggro, but that's why we make an exception to Human tribalism for some Kor Firewalker from the side.
Cool deck, I have a soft spot for norin. You are trying to build an aggro deck with purphoros and impact tremors for additional reach? I would cut the singleton soulfire grandmaster, thalia, heretic cathar, alesha and mentor of the meek. Soulfire and thalia are a bit random and I think ranger of eos and return to the ranks are better at providing card advantage than mentor of the meek and alesha. I like ranger of eos in this type of deck, would probably play 3 or 4. You can tutor for some cool one drops (lightning berserker, norin, weathered wayfarer). I would cut the second lightning berserker. Kytheon I'm unsure about. Does an attack with Norin help trigger kytheon? If it does you might want more kytheon if not I don't think he belongs in the deck.
I would probably play an additional hanweir garrison since the card works well with the theme of your deck.
You're certainly right in that a few of the one-drops are randos. Thalia can be a great tempo play on T3 against a lot of decks, while the Grand Master is a nod to grindy games. Both represent decent value as one-ofs while triggering tribal synergies and Tremors effects (not the most efficiently, I grant you!). Alesha has been nice (returning a Garrison with her is glorious). While T3 Mentor can make for an explosive T4, he can just as easily die--I think you're right that Ranger is the superior engine.
That concession, however, leads to some deck building issues. More Rangers at the expense of three-drops and a two-drop (along with perhaps axing Kytheon) raises the curve. Do I drop Purphoros for a third Tremors as a response to this? And between more Rangers and the restriction on Return to the Ranks, I should be loading down even more heavily on one (and to a lesser extent, two) drops, which runs counter to potential moves away from Kytheon and the second Berserker.
Sorry for the barrage of questions. I certainly don't expect answers to all of them; just spitballing and thinking aloud. I think the potential here is quite high, just a matter of finding the right blend.
The deck looks pretty solid though a bit closer to "RW Norin Sisters" than "Humans Tribal".
With so much lifegain wouldn't Serra Ascendant make sense here as well ? Possibly over Hanweir Garrison and Kari Zev which would also lower the curve .
Another option might be Lone Rider which can also benefit from all the lifegain.
I like your list StompBee, it seems well tuned although based in my own experience there are some changes I would do:
8 sisters is a lot for me, I think you could probably run only six of them and have almost the same performance avoiding really awful hands with only sisters and no gas. This deck has no Card advantage so almost every card must be a threat on its own or have a great synergy. This is the case of sisters but again I think six of them are enough.
Another thing I would do would be cutting 1 Norin. You are not going to cast the second one while having one in battlefield, and because it's really difficult to kill him, having one is enough and drawing the second one sucks.
With those changes you have, at least, three free slots. A card I like in WR humans is Lightning Berserker which only cost one, can be dashed so you can play a human every turn (therefore having benefits from sisters, lieautenant, champion, etc.) and can be pumped when not blocked for beating harder. I think you should play at least 2/3 of them.
I tried this deck in the past and was a blast. Liked it a lot although it was very susceptible to mass removal and combo decks. Anyways it worked fine against fair decks with not much mass removal so it's an option to consider.
Another good option for the Norin deck is Mentor of the Meek which if left unchecked can draw many cards to keep the deck going.
1-2x copies of Ranger of Eos can be pretty good too to find the 1-drops.
First off thanks to all for contributing to this thread.
Ok Ive been playing around with a Boros Aggro/Human build since Kytheon, Hero of Akros arrived and found that a turn 2 Burning-Tree Emissary + Lightning Mauler or Reckless Bushwhacker gets his to flip quick and a turn 2 Monastery Swiftspear (I dont care about the Prowess as much but since this aint a Burn deck, the Human + Haste is handy) and Legion Loyalist also gets the Kytheon to flip thanks to the Battalion trigger adding First Strike. Now I know I lose some of the Human synergy with the 2 Goblins in the deck but the speed/turn 2 pressure has been huge for me. Any feedback or advice would be great.
Ive been swapping Soldier of Pantheon and Monastery Swiftspear cause of some Zoo, Abzan and Jund creatures so I can get through. When I ran a Gruul version of this with Goblin Guide, Ghor-Clan Rampager and Atarka's Command I'd beat Jund (8 out of 10) and Abzan (6.5 out of 10) cause of its speed but this build Im 50/50. On the flip side running White for Path, Defelction Palm and Leyline has won me many matches vs Death Shadow, Burn and Tron.
Ok so my side is crazy right? But Ive done very well vs Death's Shadow after game 1 and have been about 65 to 35 vs Burn. Leyline of Sanctity shuts down their discard and Deflecting Palm gives me a finisher against them when the lil guys cant get through. As a Burn player for over a decade LOS slows us down and with Lava Spike, Boros Charm, Skullcrack etc only going to the face they hold a bunch of dead stuff with most Burn players having 2 or maybe 3 Wear//Tear or Destructive Reverly vs 4 Leylines. My meta is heavy Affinity so Shattering Spree is huge. Anger of the Gods helps vs so much, I wanted to go Pyroclasm but that Exile is key against Kitchen Finks and crap like that. I used Blood Moon in Burn but here I havent tried it yet.
4x Leyline of Sanctity = Burn, Death's Shadow, Abzan, Storm, Scapeshift, Valakut
4x Shattering Spree = Tron, Affinity, Anything with SpellSkite or Chalice of the Void
4x Deflecting Palm = Burn, Death's Shadow, Tron, Enchantress, Infect, Valakut, Bant, Eldrazi
3x Anger of the Gods = Zoo, Elves, Goblins, Tokens, Soul Sisters, Merfolk, Tribal
I've been thinking about Combat Celebrent as well. For him to perform at all two things have to happen:
Celebrent sticks to the board long enough to attack.. he could be given haste, or CoCo'd in EoT to help out here
You are in a favorable enough board state where you can attack profitably and push damage through
Let's just assume that you only get to attack with him once. He'll most likely be blocked and die (X/1) the first time he attacks, but even in the scenario that you've covered him with spot removal or the opponent didn't have a good blocker for him and he survives you then have to wait for the turn after next to swing with him again -- which for the sort of aggro deck that would run him means you've probably already won or lost by that point.
Being in a favorable board state where you can push damage through is a big problem. As we've discussed ad nauseum the human archetype as a whole is constrained in its aggro potential by its limited evasion. Building around a card that lets you attack twice without addressing this issue is only going to exacerbate the problem. Overall, Celebrent currently looks slow and win-more. Furthermore the Naya lists that he would slot into are mediocre in the current meta and mostly function as poorer versions of revolt zoo decks... /shrug
I've been thinking a lot about how to build a human deck that can handle the Death's Shadow and Eldrazi variations. Hard removal is at a premium, and running less than 8 pieces of hard removal in the 75 is asking for a difficult matchup. Most people here have always run Path, but a playset of Fatal Push is sounding increasingly essential. Additionally, Reflector Mage provides a clean (albeit temporary) answer to these threats. Having a high density of removal can help compensate for the tribe's lack of evasion. We also need a hefty dose of card advantage & card quality to power through incoming disruption. CoCo is one way to achieve this, but Dark Confidant, Smuggler's Copter, Thraben Inspector, Gideon AoZ, and even Tasigur (!) are also options... Putting this together I've been working on a lower curve Esper list that can grind and interact. It seems promising, and I'll share the list once I can test it a bit more.
Speaking of Gideon, the new 3-drop Gideon was spoiled:
I was trying to imagine some janky mono-white Gideon-Human deck running Kytheon + Gideon Trails + Gideon Ally and Smuggler's Copter / Heart of Kiran. It would probably be clunky as hell, but it'd be nice to have a somewhat "unfair" angle to the deck.
I like your list and I haven't managed to put much effort into my Naya build as been focusing on Cheeri0s and Abzan Company. Will hopefully give mine a whirl soon.
However, Combat Celebrent looks like it could be a vital addition to the deck. Thoughts?
Oh man its on like Donkey Kong! Now I might just scrub the Blue and Mantis Rider (this card is really freaking good though). This dude can be a finisher plus Im sure some RDW and Red Aggro type decks will use/try this.
Now to proxy and find room and test this card until it comes out. But damn do I pull out a couple or all the Thalia's.
Turn 1 Champion or Kytheon
Turn 2 BTE into Lightning Mauler or Reckless Bushwhacker then flip Kytheon or Champion is so ruthless.
And the Legion Loyalist is so good in this deck and the Swiftspear helps me flip Kytheon on turn 2 with turn 1 Kytheon and turn 2 Legion Loyalist + Monastery Swiftspear turn 2. If 2 pull 2 Monastery and 1 Thalia to add this as what I was gonna do with the Mantis Rider for the Combat Celebrant
I think it would slow me a little but give me better staying power and mid range game. Too bad it doesnt have Haste
In my experience T1 Kytheon -> T2 Mauler+BTE -> flip only works if your opponent has zero blockers and is tapped out. If your opponent has any removal or even a measly 1-drop 1/X body sitting there they will use it to trade and kill Kytheon, guaranteed. Realistically the only way you're flipping Kytheon against a good player is if it's late enough into the game that you've exhausted their removal and you either hold up mana for his indestructible ability or cover him against blockers with spot removal. As an aside, Kari Zev is a better Kytheon enabler than BTE+Mauler IMO, because if Kytheon gets hit by their removal Kari is still a good card on her own
In my experience Kytheon -> Mauler+BTE -> flip only works if your opponent has an empty board and is tapped out. If your opponent has any removal or even a measly 1-drop 1/X body sitting there they will use it to trade and kill Kytheon, guaranteed. Realistically the only way you're flipping Kytheon against a good player is if it's late enough into the game that you've exhausted their removal and you either hold up mana for his indestructible ability or cover him against blockers with spot removal. As an aside, Kari Zev is a better Kytheon enabler than BTE+Mauler IMO.
For that specific combo your right about that to an extent. And I am not saying this deck is a Tier 1 competitive beast. I run Burn more often there. This deck Ive put a lot of play testing into cause its just hella fun, its different and Im trying to improve it. So any feedback from ya'll will help me get better. As for Kari Zev, Skyship Raider I have yet to play test but I am looking into the Kari Zev's Expertise to play test for some fun tech to throw people off.
This is my experience so far with that combo, Reckless Bushwhacker is better more times the Lightning Mauler but that Human does pump Champion. Someone suggested Mutagenic Growth but it was to fringy during testing.
- Vs Abzan probably my toughest match game 2 and 3 Kytheon does not survive Path/Fatal/Abrupt and Thoughtseize/IK (if they go 1st) just way too much early removal.
- Vs Jund Fatal Push or Abrupt Decay sucks but if they dont have that I get in some damage quick and they like to turn 2 Goyf or Scooze and on 3 drop Liliana so I can Path, Chained or Bolt and keep up the early pressure.
- Vs Tron Im in quick and I save the Path for their turn 3 Wurm and its over (not always that simple though).
- Vs Small/Speed Zoo and Affinity game 1 early game it wont work well but then game 2 and 3 I can play more control with my side Anger of the Gods/Shattering Spree and then take over with board and card advantage if I draw the side board tech.
- Vs Burn I can get that combo off cause their turn 1 is usually Goblin Guide or Monastery Swiftspear and its tapped. However, in game 2 and 3 if the see Champion or Kytheon its killed quick.
- Vs any thing with Birds of Paradise or Noble Heirach (like Big Zoo, GW Maverick more of a Legacy deck my buddy has, Midrange) they never block but they're next turn play is usually something like Knight of the Reliquary/Loxodon Smiter/etc.
- Vs UR Delver sometimes they've actually let me flip the Kytheon and to save the Delver to flip and then next turn bounce my Kytheon with a Vapor Snag or Cyclonic.
- Vs Zombies they cant block with Gravecrawler and Diresgraf comes into play tapped.
- Vs Elves its been 50/50 sometimes they block sometimes they save their dudes cause they feel they can try and combo off quicker.
- Vs Death's Shadow I almost never win game 1 but game 2 and 3 Kytheon flipping isnt as important to win.
The other combo that flips Kytheon early is the turn 1 Kytheon and turn 2 Legion Loyalist + Monastery Swiftspear when that happens the First Stike keeps him alive.
Vs Zoo game 1 depend on the size of Nacatl if 2/2 they dont normally block the Kytheon cause of the First Strike so it flips but they block/kill the LL.
Also other 1 drops I was considering to help or replace Kytheon. Village Messenger has haste and can help turn on Battalion and he's easily ignored so if I have Champion or Thalia the flipping will just pump them and has Menance of side 2. Reckless Waif same can be said for flipping/pumping but doesn't have Haste or Menace. Soldier of the Pantheon with Kytheon in the multi color build was too slow but his Protection is great yet limited at the same time. Goblin Guide was originally in the deck but not being a Human + dosen't have the great Battalion trigger Legion Loyalist has pushed in back into my Burn deck for now. Norin was great for Champion but not as much for Kytheon. Experiment One is great and can bigger even without having a base 3 power but adding G for 1 card and Renegade Rallier can help late/mid game but he doesnt bring back Reckless Bushwhacker then again having access to Ghor-Clan Rampager is amazing in Bushwhacker/Small/Gruul/Speed Zoo and Atarka's Command would mean all out rush with lil defense and runs out of gas quick.
If Im going 3 color I may go Black for Xathrid Necromancer helps in game 2/3 vs sweepers and get more removal or discard or Blue for Mantis Rider, open the door for bounce/counter stuff.
Maybe in new/future sets we will have more 1 drops options but for now........
Glory-Bound Initiate is insane. I was on the fence about Always Watching until now, but not anymore.
Ive been on the fence about Always Watching also cause its really good in heavy aggro metas as a turn 4 play and grinding games vs them and heck if I can get a good Burning-Tree Emissary chain on turn 2 this would make a good turn 3. Glory-Bound Initiate into Always Watching is a good turn 2 play for Standard not I may play test this in Modern. I wonder how well Combat Celebrant and Always Watching would play as a turn 3 turn 4 play. Im gonna have a hella busy weekend play testing so many new ideas, cards, synergies and strategies; damn what a tough burden to have