I understand the concern over hand disruption in a tempo deck. I don't think it's something we should do often, but there's a fair amount of combo and control on MTGO, where disrupting your opponent's hand has been quite useful for me. I admit it's quite a poor card in most other MUs like midrange or aggro. I've played with and without it and it's certainly a meta call. I don't think it's a card we can write off completely, but again, I understand your concern for it in the deck.
I'm personally not a huge fan of Dispel in the main, but I do think it was very incorrect for me to not play 2 in the sideboard. I just blanked on it when constructing the deck from scratch, and we should 100% be playing them in our SB. Extra Terminate or Dreadbore is a really good suggestion. I had trouble dealing with big toughness creatures against GW Company, and while that's not a common deck, Humans, Jund and Grixis Shadow are, so hard removal seems to be really important, as dead as it may be in other MUs.
I think moving up to 28 instants/sorceries is also correct. Vendilion Clique isn't amazing right now, so I'm definitely going to cut the single copy.
Thanks for the advice guys. Will be recording with an updated build soon
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Hey all. I've been building into modern over the last 6 months or so, and I decided to grab some of the cards I was missing for Grixis Delver because it seemed cool. Took it to the game store tonight and did pretty decently.
I went 3-1. I beat UG Infect, Temur Scapeshift, and then I played against 2 guys on the same weird burn list (Mono-red with a lot of the burn staples, but with Bomat Courier, Ramunap Ruins and some other stuff).
Infect (2-0) - I won Game 1 pretty easily. He only found 2 infect guys and I killed them both on sight. I played Tasigur at my leisure and beat him to death. Post board he had Shapers' Sanctuary on turn 1, which made removal feel awkward, but Young Pyromancer bought me a ton of time with tokens. The main board Spell Pierce was great against the protection/pump spells, and fatal push is an all-star when part of their plan is to avoid bolt by making things too large.
Temur Scapeshift (2-1) - Game 1 was awkward, I kept a bad hand with no pressure. Game 2 I mulliganed to 4, but drew the straight nuts from there on and tempo'd him out (Thought scour -> Young Pyro -> Thought scour + Angler + Spell pierce -> Kill you). Again, cheap counterspells main board were great. Game 3 was more even, and again cheap counter spells smashed Remand, pyromancer left behind a few tokens, and delve threats were too big for him to handle.
Burn/Aggro (2-1) - Lost game 1 pretty hard. He played Goblin Chainwhirler into a board full of X/1's. I couldn't recover. Game 2 and 3 went the same way. I had some removal for his early Goblin Guide, I played a delve threat raced him while countering burn and removing creatures.
Burn/Aggro (0-2) - I drew pretty badly during these games. He drew Grim Lavamancer every game, and I drew no delve threats. Lava boy just spanks the non-delve threats. Otherwise, my removal lined up kind of awkward. I would say this match was more of a show of variance issues than a problem with the deck.
The deck felt really good. I would like to make room for another Gurmag Angler. I could see cutting the third Young Pyromancer, because I never really wanted a secoond one. However, I always wanted the first one, and that makes me wary of going down to 2.
I'm not sure that I'm running the right mix of cantrips. 10 felt pretty good, but I did occasionally feel like I was a bit cantrip flooded. However, I basically always had a proactive play on turn 1, which felt great. The instant speed for Opt only came into play from time to time, but it felt good when I did cast it. Thought Scour is just super in a deck with 4 Snapcaster Mage and cards that can use the extra cards as a mana resource (Delve is a busted mechanic).
I might not need the third Fatal Push, but it wasn't bad. In a less creature heavy meta another Spell Pierce might be better.
Hey What are you guys thoughts about Bomat Courier I know it's a different format but I saw a Grixis Delver list in Legacy that ran 4 in replace of Gitaxian Probe due to the ban.
I personally don't think that would be a nice add to our deck, it feels like a nonbo with Snaps and with cards like Serum Visions that allow deck manipulation.
It could be a tempting card when you have zero cards in hand or when they're useless, but you don't know what cards you are going to draw with the Courier.
However maybe you could test it and report here your results
I personally don't think that would be a nice add to our deck, it feels like a nonbo with Snaps and with cards like Serum Visions that allow deck manipulation.
It could be a tempting card when you have zero cards in hand or when they're useless, but you don't know what cards you are going to draw with the Courier.
However maybe you could test it and report here your results
I agree with this sentiment. It would totally change how you go about card draw and snapping stuff back. It would feel, what they call, clunky.
It’s bad. Really bad. Against Storm, it just counters the original Grapeshot. The storm trigger still happens and all the other copies get set at your face. You do get to “copy” Grapeshot, if that’s the spell you target with Psychic Rebuttal. You don’t get the storm trigger, since you’re “copying” it and not “casting” it.
Honestly, at 2 mana, you’re better off just running a Negate. It’s going to counter everything that a Psychic Rebuttal counters, along with planeswalkers, random problem artifacts and enchantments, etc.
Thank you. I was under the impression I would get to copy, the storm effect as well as the original spell. No storm effect makes this a terrible card. The narrow target thing I do not like but could work around.
This card is going back into my Origins binder never to see the light of day again thank you.
To put things another way, if this effect was good enough we would have been playing Redirect already, which is much broader and will let you direct opposing fatal pushes towards the opp's goyfs etc.
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Hey guys I just found this thread and I am in the process of assembling a grixis delver deck. I have everything except the snapcasters. I own probably 8 other modern decks that are mostly combo,control, midrange so tempo will be new for me. Do you guys have any suggestions on what to run in the place of snapcaster I'm planning on nimble obstructionist/ v_clique split 3/1 or maybe all obstructionist. Also my mana base is designed to not be hurt by blood moon and I was thinking of playing between 1-3 main maybe those in place of snapcaster. If this just seems like a super bad idea let me know but I play pyro prison as my main modern deck and blood moon just strait hoses quite a few decks especially when it's not expected like it would be from a grixis delver deck. I just got done watching the videos of bourbon foxes list with search for azcanta in it so I know the deck can function well with at least a couple enchantment in it. Anyways thanks in advance I'm looking forward to playing some grixis delver at my local fnm soon.
Hey guys I just found this thread and I am in the process of assembling a grixis delver deck. I have everything except the snapcasters. I own probably 8 other modern decks that are mostly combo,control, midrange so tempo will be new for me. Do you guys have any suggestions on what to run in the place of snapcaster I'm planning on nimble obstructionist/ v_clique split 3/1 or maybe all obstructionist. Also my mana base is designed to not be hurt by blood moon and I was thinking of playing between 1-3 main maybe those in place of snapcaster. If this just seems like a super bad idea let me know but I play pyro prison as my main modern deck and blood moon just strait hoses quite a few decks especially when it's not expected like it would be from a grixis delver deck. I just got done watching the videos of bourbon foxes list with search for azcanta in it so I know the deck can function well with at least a couple enchantment in it. Anyways thanks in advance I'm looking forward to playing some grixis delver at my local fnm soon.
If you can't spring the cash for snapcaster, move in the other direction and play other value engines such as Young Pyro, Thing in the Ice or Bedlam reveler. Since you aren't snapcasting the spells they need to provide some other kind of value, and these 3 cards can provide that.
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So I've got in the mail
2 kologhan's command
4 spell snare
4 nimble obstructionist
2 young pyromancer
2 thing in the ice
And I have access to dispel, spell pierce ECT. So any help on the list would be appreciated. My meta has burn,infect,tron,jund,adnauseam, fish,affinity,Mardu pyromancer,lantern,kci,humans and hollow one but not all at the same time oh and titanshift. I don't have the snapcasters and will probably buy them down the road if I like this deck enough because out of all the decks I own they would only go in this one so it's kind of a sticking point. I like to get the most bang for my buck.
As far as hate cards go Alpine Moon is now really cheap and will help you seal games against Valakut and Tron, since you have the clocks to back up such a sideboard plan. Other than that your plan looks OK, I do feel like 3 tas 2 angler is a little bit greedy. You can change 1 out for young pyro when it arrives.
Be aware the meta isn't friendly to decks like this at the moment, and your meta looks like the regular kind - hollow one, humans and mardu pyromancer will feel pretty bad - they either go under you, or they simply outvalue you. I don't mean to be a wet blanket, you can surely play what you enjoy but decks playing countermagicks and removal are the underdog at the moment.
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@Marc Wizzard thanks for the reply I was thinking the same about the 5th delve threat in the few times I've played the deck it doesn't seem to get stuck in my hand. I usually mill one over with thought scour anyways my main concern is about the threat density I'm only playing 12 if I swap out a tasigur for a 3rd pyromancer maybe cut a dismember and something else for my two kolaghan's command when they arrive will that be enough or should I trim something else (and what) for the 4th pyromancer and or 1_2 thing in the ice. Second I can see that this deck isn't well positioned now but it is a play style I have never tried and want to get a feel for plus no one plays delver in modern. Also the deck looks fun to play and that's more what I go for I've got quite a collection of modern decks and can bring teir 1 stuff whenever I want but I like playing fringe things and decks that are fun over just trying to stomp. Also mirror matches are really lame to me so I try to avoid that. I'm mainly just looking to try and tune this deck to something that doesn't just get ran over every time I take it out and that's also the reason for not springing for the snapcasters right away. So any help I can get Wil be much appreciated
A possible changes is one Bedlam Reveler for one Tasigur, the Golden Fang
I also have doubts with the cantrip... Serum, Opt, Scour or Looting? I do not know what to put and in what amount.
How has this list worked for you? I am brewing up a Grixis list... been choosing between a more 'tapout' Grixis value list and a Grixis control (or even Deaths shadow) and came about something very similar to yours but with some Claim // Fame as well for value. How have you found the list? Good bad matchups?
Delver declined in a large part to people just going with shadow, which performs at a similar level and in conjunction with tas and angler enable Stubborn Denial more consistently, given it quite an edge over traditional delver. Then came all the go-wide decks that Shadow hates, so that's down, too.
Thing in the Ice might actually do a better job in the meta than the other threats, since they reset the board. I'm just speculating, though. I'm enjoying playing Hollow One at the moment, haven't got bored of it (yet).
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@ Marc wizard so I know literally nothing about deaths shadow I've only played it a couple times and they weren't even real games I just crushed them so I never got to see what all the hubbub was about. But they way I understand it is delver is just a worse version of that? Shadow never really interested me but I like to play control and delver seemed to be controlish especially with counter spells (even though they aren't so good in modern) I'll try the thing in the ice it seems like a sweet card. My only concern is it being at odds with my delve threats if I'm trying to close a game and I played thing in the ice on turn two then a delve threat then I'm kinda between a rock and a hard place do I lose my tempo advantage if I'm ahead by not playing spells to keep the thing from flipping or just continue as normal and hope the bounce effect plus the 7/8 body is enough to seal the deal? Also what are good matchups for this deck? Part of my reasoning for wanting to add the 2 or 3 blood moon was as an extra advantage I don't think anyone would see it coming and it defiantly shuts off parts of people's decks and that might give me the edge I need to take over the game. It defiantly makes counter spells way better.
@ Marc wizard so I know literally nothing about deaths shadow I've only played it a couple times and they weren't even real games I just crushed them so I never got to see what all the hubbub was about. But they way I understand it is delver is just a worse version of that? Shadow never really interested me but I like to play control and delver seemed to be controlish especially with counter spells (even though they aren't so good in modern) I'll try the thing in the ice it seems like a sweet card. My only concern is it being at odds with my delve threats if I'm trying to close a game and I played thing in the ice on turn two then a delve threat then I'm kinda between a rock and a hard place do I lose my tempo advantage if I'm ahead by not playing spells to keep the thing from flipping or just continue as normal and hope the bounce effect plus the 7/8 body is enough to seal the deal? Also what are good matchups for this deck? Part of my reasoning for wanting to add the 2 or 3 blood moon was as an extra advantage I don't think anyone would see it coming and it defiantly shuts off parts of people's decks and that might give me the edge I need to take over the game. It defiantly makes counter spells way better.
well don't play your delve threat after your Thing, that's just weird, like cracking a fetch after serum visions. You need discipline. If you draw a delve threat after thing then just focus on the control thang and get that Thing flipped.
Shadow is an OK match up for us. Anyway, its passe now that we've got the real aggro decks like humans and hollow one. Why bother protecting your threats when you can instead just make more threats than they have answers mirite?
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I'm personally not a huge fan of Dispel in the main, but I do think it was very incorrect for me to not play 2 in the sideboard. I just blanked on it when constructing the deck from scratch, and we should 100% be playing them in our SB. Extra Terminate or Dreadbore is a really good suggestion. I had trouble dealing with big toughness creatures against GW Company, and while that's not a common deck, Humans, Jund and Grixis Shadow are, so hard removal seems to be really important, as dead as it may be in other MUs.
I think moving up to 28 instants/sorceries is also correct. Vendilion Clique isn't amazing right now, so I'm definitely going to cut the single copy.
Thanks for the advice guys. Will be recording with an updated build soon
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1 Gurmag Angler
3 Young Pyromancer
4 Snapcaster Mage
Instant/Soceries
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Mana Leak
1 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare
1 Dismember
1 Kolaghan's Command
4 Opt
4 Thought Scour
2 Serum Visions
3 Fatal Push
2 Terminate
1 Collective Brutality
1 Electrolyze
1 Darkslick Shores
2 Spirebluff Canal
2 Steam Vent
1 Watery Grave
1 Blood Crypt
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
2 Island
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
1 Vendillion Clique
2 Damping Sphere
1 Negate
1 Abrade
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Flaying Tendrils
1 Anger of the Gods
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
2 Dispel
1 Ceremonious Rejection
1 Collective Brutality
I went 3-1. I beat UG Infect, Temur Scapeshift, and then I played against 2 guys on the same weird burn list (Mono-red with a lot of the burn staples, but with Bomat Courier, Ramunap Ruins and some other stuff).
Infect (2-0) - I won Game 1 pretty easily. He only found 2 infect guys and I killed them both on sight. I played Tasigur at my leisure and beat him to death. Post board he had Shapers' Sanctuary on turn 1, which made removal feel awkward, but Young Pyromancer bought me a ton of time with tokens. The main board Spell Pierce was great against the protection/pump spells, and fatal push is an all-star when part of their plan is to avoid bolt by making things too large.
Temur Scapeshift (2-1) - Game 1 was awkward, I kept a bad hand with no pressure. Game 2 I mulliganed to 4, but drew the straight nuts from there on and tempo'd him out (Thought scour -> Young Pyro -> Thought scour + Angler + Spell pierce -> Kill you). Again, cheap counterspells main board were great. Game 3 was more even, and again cheap counter spells smashed Remand, pyromancer left behind a few tokens, and delve threats were too big for him to handle.
Burn/Aggro (2-1) - Lost game 1 pretty hard. He played Goblin Chainwhirler into a board full of X/1's. I couldn't recover. Game 2 and 3 went the same way. I had some removal for his early Goblin Guide, I played a delve threat raced him while countering burn and removing creatures.
Burn/Aggro (0-2) - I drew pretty badly during these games. He drew Grim Lavamancer every game, and I drew no delve threats. Lava boy just spanks the non-delve threats. Otherwise, my removal lined up kind of awkward. I would say this match was more of a show of variance issues than a problem with the deck.
The deck felt really good. I would like to make room for another Gurmag Angler. I could see cutting the third Young Pyromancer, because I never really wanted a secoond one. However, I always wanted the first one, and that makes me wary of going down to 2.
I'm not sure that I'm running the right mix of cantrips. 10 felt pretty good, but I did occasionally feel like I was a bit cantrip flooded. However, I basically always had a proactive play on turn 1, which felt great. The instant speed for Opt only came into play from time to time, but it felt good when I did cast it. Thought Scour is just super in a deck with 4 Snapcaster Mage and cards that can use the extra cards as a mana resource (Delve is a busted mechanic).
I might not need the third Fatal Push, but it wasn't bad. In a less creature heavy meta another Spell Pierce might be better.
It could be a tempting card when you have zero cards in hand or when they're useless, but you don't know what cards you are going to draw with the Courier.
However maybe you could test it and report here your results
G Mono Green Stompy G
UR UR Delver Prowess UR
URBGrixis DelverURB
RBWMardu PyromancerRBW
I agree with this sentiment. It would totally change how you go about card draw and snapping stuff back. It would feel, what they call, clunky.
RUBDa ShadowBUR
Honestly, at 2 mana, you’re better off just running a Negate. It’s going to counter everything that a Psychic Rebuttal counters, along with planeswalkers, random problem artifacts and enchantments, etc.
This card is going back into my Origins binder never to see the light of day again thank you.
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If you can't spring the cash for snapcaster, move in the other direction and play other value engines such as Young Pyro, Thing in the Ice or Bedlam reveler. Since you aren't snapcasting the spells they need to provide some other kind of value, and these 3 cards can provide that.
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Lands 19
1 watery grave
1 steam vents
1 blood crypt
4 polluted delta
3 bloodstained mire
1 flooded strand
2 mountain
3 swamp
3 island
Creatures 12
4 delver
2 young pyromancer
2 gurmag angler
3 tasigur
1 vendillion clique
Spells
3 fatal push
4 lightning bolt
3 terminate
4 thought scour
4 serum visions
1 opt
1 electrolize
1 dismember
3 mana leak
2 remand
1 negate
3 inquisiton of kozilek
So I've got in the mail
2 kologhan's command
4 spell snare
4 nimble obstructionist
2 young pyromancer
2 thing in the ice
And I have access to dispel, spell pierce ECT. So any help on the list would be appreciated. My meta has burn,infect,tron,jund,adnauseam, fish,affinity,Mardu pyromancer,lantern,kci,humans and hollow one but not all at the same time oh and titanshift. I don't have the snapcasters and will probably buy them down the road if I like this deck enough because out of all the decks I own they would only go in this one so it's kind of a sticking point. I like to get the most bang for my buck.
Be aware the meta isn't friendly to decks like this at the moment, and your meta looks like the regular kind - hollow one, humans and mardu pyromancer will feel pretty bad - they either go under you, or they simply outvalue you. I don't mean to be a wet blanket, you can surely play what you enjoy but decks playing countermagicks and removal are the underdog at the moment.
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How has this list worked for you? I am brewing up a Grixis list... been choosing between a more 'tapout' Grixis value list and a Grixis control (or even Deaths shadow) and came about something very similar to yours but with some Claim // Fame as well for value. How have you found the list? Good bad matchups?
Thing in the Ice might actually do a better job in the meta than the other threats, since they reset the board. I'm just speculating, though. I'm enjoying playing Hollow One at the moment, haven't got bored of it (yet).
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well don't play your delve threat after your Thing, that's just weird, like cracking a fetch after serum visions. You need discipline. If you draw a delve threat after thing then just focus on the control thang and get that Thing flipped.
Shadow is an OK match up for us. Anyway, its passe now that we've got the real aggro decks like humans and hollow one. Why bother protecting your threats when you can instead just make more threats than they have answers mirite?
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