Well it hits most things you care about, in a sense it's like a wonky spellskite on a 1/1 flying body.
Also unlike spell queller which needs to rot in your hand until you get the right opportunity, this innocuous little guy gets to go straight to work pinging your opponent down slowly. That three or so damage could make a difference in quite a few games, maybe.
Anyway I like the card. Seems decent. The question is, what gets dropped to accommodate it?
In my list with a 15 creature/ 21 spell ratio that has been proven quite solid, it would probably replace a spell and a creature in the flex slots for testing purposes. You wanna put at least 2x in for testing so you actually get to see the card often enough, then you can still cut it down to one.
Which means right now probably a Spell Pierce and either a Scooze or the Kitchen Finks.
On paper I'm still not really convinced about the Siren though.
Yea I definitely love deeproot champion too, but I suspect it'll only be a budget goyf.
For the siren, I suspect it'll be a ~3 of, or a 0 of.
I'm hopeful, but not holding my breath.
It could possibly replace one of the two vendilion cliques I'm running, and maybe a... Hmm maybe a remand or something. Not sure.
Other question, I'm looking at the most recent list on my phone from a while back... I assume I wasn't smoking something at the time, but I clearly decided that 20 lands was somehow viable. What are you guys running? I thought 21 was the standard but I can see for some reason I've dropped one and I can't figure out why.
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Modern: G Tron, Vannifar, Jund, Druid/Vizier combo, Humans, Eldrazi Stompy (Serum Powder), Amulet, Grishoalbrand, Breach Titan, Turns, Eternal Command, As Foretold Living End, Elves, Cheerios, RUG Scapeshift
I run 20 lands in my current list but only because of the 1x Traverse the Ulvenwald. I think of it as something similar to a manland. You hit your landdrops early (but costs one, so it's basically a land that enters tapped) but enables serious value chains or sometimes toolboxing later (I usually end up going for the former most often, but there are definitely situations where simply fetching a Scooze, Clique or SB stuff like Staticaster or Colossus is great).
So 21 lands is adequate and lets you squeeze in a manland, 20 is definetely on the greedy side and in my opinion only possible if you have a low curve (3x Cryptics as the only 4-drops, few 3-drops) and a good amount of cheap card draw.
I like my 20.5 land version with Traverse a lot. There are certainly downsides to treating Traverse as a land (taps only for one colour, 'enters tapped', can be countered/discarded, if you use it early it's not 'CA' like a manland would be, Leonin Arbiter, awkward to play if your only green source is a Flooded Grove) but in my opinion that downside is being made up for with the huge potential upside this card has (search for E-Wit, play again, search for Snap, play again, search for Clique/Scooze/Goyf/ whatever you need is nothing uncommon in grindy MUs and usually wins me the game).
Screw the Siren, we just got Opt to play with!
I like this a lot. Oh how often I wished to be able to flashback SV at instant speed. Not sure if I will end up trying out a 4x SV 2x Opt or a 3x/2x split, but this is pretty sweet to have!
I feel like there are enough new cards to totally change the deck, potentially.
I'd highly stress to everyone who brewing to remember that eternal command is about the soft lock in a deck capable of doing something else, be it in red, white, or black, or even just U/G.
Don't get too pigeonholed trying to tweak current lists.
I feel like there are enough new cards to totally change the deck, potentially.
I'd highly stress to everyone who brewing to remember that eternal command is about the soft lock in a deck capable of doing something else, be it in red, white, or black, or even just U/G.
Don't get too pigeonholed trying to tweak current lists.
Which cards are you referring to? Opt is definitely pretty big for the deck and Modern as a whole. Then we have the Siren that has potential...I don't see these two 'totally changing' the deck. Do I miss something?
I just mean when looking for slots.
Its possible we want to be some 8 cantrip, low to the ground deck.
Maybe siren turns out to be super good, and we want several.
Maybe that means we cut a lot of the extra creatures (cutting cliques, for example) or shaving down on countermagic, or whatever.
I just mean when looking for slots.
Its possible we want to be some 8 cantrip, low to the ground deck.
Maybe siren turns out to be super good, and we want several.
Maybe that means we cut a lot of the extra creatures (cutting cliques, for example) or shaving down on countermagic, or whatever.
I agree for sure. I'm not saying we should all just go ham on janky nonsense, however I am suggesting that a slight change to the balance of cards/numbers in the deck to accommodate potential powerful new tools is a good thing to think about.
I'm very conscious that over the years, the deck has become refined and everyone has kind of settled on 15 creatures and 20 (or 21) spells, plus vial. I can see those numbers more or less staying firm, but they could be tweaked slightly and the specific spells tweaked themselves.
Oh and holy mother of dog, Opt is so totally amazing for this deck. Instant way to dig to vial-targets? Ughhhjjjjjjjhhhghhhdjffjfjdhsjsjd it's so good
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Modern: G Tron, Vannifar, Jund, Druid/Vizier combo, Humans, Eldrazi Stompy (Serum Powder), Amulet, Grishoalbrand, Breach Titan, Turns, Eternal Command, As Foretold Living End, Elves, Cheerios, RUG Scapeshift
I just mean when looking for slots.
Its possible we want to be some 8 cantrip, low to the ground deck.
Maybe siren turns out to be super good, and we want several.
Maybe that means we cut a lot of the extra creatures (cutting cliques, for example) or shaving down on countermagic, or whatever.
I see what you mean.
Thinking longer about it, Opt might actually turn out better in this deck than SV. Visions still digs a card deeper which is relevant if we really need to find a Cryptic or E-Wit for the lock, but being able to Snap it back, hold up Remand on turn 2 (or Pierce/Snare turn 1) without risking to lose too much tempo, digging for stuff to vial in at instant speed, being able to scry away excessive Vials or lands before you draw them...there's tons of upsight in this card.
We need a certain amount of Sorceries to have Goyf be an efficient beater often enough though. I can see cutting 1x SV max.
Running more solid cantrips could indeed throw our numbers over a little bit, allowing us to play 1-2 creatures less. 15x creatures is already incredibly low for a Vial deck though.
I personally will only test Opt at first, not the Siren. Gives you a better feel to evaluate the card. Probably cutting a Spell Pierce, a Remand and either the Kitchen Finks or a SV.
If we end up upping our cantrip count to 6+ (which I think we will) another card to consider again is actually Young Pyromancer. I've been trying it out from time to time but it always felt lackluster in Modern (no free counterspells), especially since the Probe ban. But with the ability to vial it in while having counters up, it could provide another threat that's solid on both offense (especially with Cryptic) and defense (buying a lot of time against Death's Shadow if unanswered, exactly what we want to sculp our hand for a final attack) while not relying on the graveyard, which is awesome.
This is the first time in ages we get something that could actually make this deck better for a solid amount. I'm hyped guys! haha
If young peezy counted any noncreature spell to make a token (like mentor) I'd be much bigger on it, as dropping extra vials would at the very least be 1/1s for 1. Alas, he does not, but being able to vial him is neat, if nothing else.
That's 4 cards of our whole deck and cards we hope to either play before Pyro resolves or usually try to not draw (scry away) after he resolves.
Sure it would have been awesome if Peezy could make use of otherwise more or less useless Vials, but I don't see a problem here.
If anything the questions if our spell count if high enough with about 22. Grixis Delver lists of old definitely played more spells. But some 18 lands Shadow lists adopted the card and they play about 24 spells usually, so it's not that much of a stretch.
Our spell count would be 26 if vial counted
I could be wrong, but I think the 17 land sleight builds of shadow were the ones that tended to play peezy.
Not too much of a difference either way though.
It might be relevant, but from past experience, if you're running Opt you tend to want to run more cheap counterspells, so you can opt into them in your opponent's turn when you've got 2+ mana.
Just mentioning this because someone (I just glanced, can't remember who) mentioned dropping some of them.
Also how insanely good is opting into a witness EoT, vialling it in and getting back something powerful then untapping with all the answers. Very nice.
Agree that we still need sorceries in the deck for tarmogoyf. Maybe 3 visions, 1 traverse?
I'm running 1x tarfire and will probably keep it in the deck. As a one-of it's been instrumental in providing powerful surprise blocks and also just happens to work well against coco, affinity, d&t, elves, merfolk and so on. Haven't ever felt like the spell outstayed its welcome and it makes goyf nice and beefy at instant speed.
There are several different direction this deck can take form with Opt in the format. The most obvious one is integrate it in the current stock lists (be it RUG, BUG or Bant) as a 1-4 off (depending on the exact shell.
However, there are several factors you have to keep in mind, when adding more Cantrips.
First (and most obvious) you have more air in the deck. It will happen, that you cantrip into cantrip into nothing more, since the raw number of "air" cards increases while you decrease the targets.
Furthermore, for each 2 added cantrips you can usually cut a land. This means, if you go full in for the 8 Cantrips (4 SV and 4 Opt + maybe a Looting) you can go down to 20 lands without a problem, if you want to kick a utility land you can even go down to 19.
As an side effect (as already mentioned) Young Pyromancer gets a boost (same is true for Mentor btw for a possible Bant build). If you want to play Pyro (and than the full 4 Opt) + cut at least one land, the high end cards (4 Cryptics) are not that feasible anymore, since while you will hit your lands or can dig for them, hitting 4 on turn 4 will not be as given as currently.
However, Pyro has an amazing synergy with Familar's Ruse, where the "drawback" becomes non-existent, since you can just bounce a token and go along. This basically means, that a dedicated Vial Tempo build with 4 Pyro, 4 Goyf, 3 Snappies, 2 Witness, 2 Clique + Ruse instead of the full 4 high end Cryptics get better. Furthermore, since you are more on the lower side of the mana side (cause of more Cantrips, less lands and more stuff to do at instant speed), the cheaper counter-spells like Spell Pierce, Snare (not good in the current meta btw), Remand and Leak gets better. However, what specific counter set-up you want to run depends on the finial list and how much removal you are jamming. Since you can execute the tempo plan now better, Send to Sleep also gets more interesting since it taps down blockers for two whole turns.
However, the question is now, if would be even worth to add the Vial + Witness + Cryptic/Ruse package into the deck. From playing the deck in the past with Probe in a similar set-up (so with the above mentioned Creature set-up) I would say yes, since the draws with Vial are still bonkers.
Btw. Opt also makes the Bant Mentor version I tested a while ago better, however, I think, that Spellsqueller is still the better card overall (cause the inbuild "counter").
Greetings,
Kathal
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What I play or have:
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
I wouldn't call the synergy between Ruse and Peezy amazing. The bounce clause is an additional cost. Pyromancer doesn't create the token until you cast the spell, so you already need to have a token in play to get the result you described Kathal.
Playing just eternal ruse (with no/few cryptics) definitely seems appealing now.
This would allow us to potentially cut a lot of lands (given that we have vials and serum/opt/traverse/etc), as we no longer need 4 lands for cryptic.
The only reason I'm hesitant on the 3/3 split, or maxing out on opt is that we need sorceries for goyf.
Playing all 8 copies, and going super land-light is a little questionable in cryptic versions of this deck. In ruse builds (as I posted) I feel this is the way to go. I'm still unsure if the ruse builds are going to be better than the command builds.
I may eat my words later, but I honestly think monastery mentor is still unplayable in modern. The difference between t3 pyro + spell and t4 mentor + spell is huge. Yea, the ceiling on mentor is higher, but I want the put the cards in my hand into play earlier. This isn't legacy miracles, where we just want the most effective finisher possible. We've got goyfs too.
Could you elaborate on the miracle grow builds? I'm familiar with the concept, the original decks, etc, but how do you feel that applies to this deck? What changes are going to be made?
Interesting point on remand. I don't totally disagree, but a cantrip heavy shell, with a focus on tempo and less on solid individual cards/late game value (like the original builds of eternal command) benefits greatly from remand.
I feel like spell pierce's stock is going up right now. While its unfortunate that it misses creatures (and red's removal isn't amazing right now) being able to hold pierce, and cast opt if they don't fall for it is pretty sweet.
I'm intrigued by the 8 cantrip lower to the ground version. Not sure if it will end up better, but I want to at least try it out (and I'll use any excuse to up my Ruse count again).
I'm very hesitant to completely drop Cryptic though. It such a versatile card and shines in this deck like in no other on my opinion. The tap mode is also sweet synergy with Pyromancer (many decks that can't remove him early tend to be able to stall the board).
I can actually see playing the new Siren in that build a lot more than in the traditional ones. Pyro profits from protection more than Goyf and upping the Ruse count makes a 1-drop creature a lot more desirable (even though there's no great synergy between the two, simply having Ruse online turn 2 is pretty good).
If we keep 2x Cryptics, I don't think we can afford to cut Remands for Mana Leak, as the additional draw seems necessary to reach 4 lands by turn 4-5.
So my idea would look something like this:
Not sure if the amount of actual action spells in there is big enough, maybe the whole Vial package is just too much but I'd give it a try.
Ixalan seems to shape up to be the best set Wizards has done in a while. I'm actually considering to look into Standard again.
My thoughts were by cutting cryptic, I could cut lands, and have more, and cheaper, action.
Maybe I'm wrong, maybe not.
Definitely do like your list though.
My thoughts on standard as well
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In my list with a 15 creature/ 21 spell ratio that has been proven quite solid, it would probably replace a spell and a creature in the flex slots for testing purposes. You wanna put at least 2x in for testing so you actually get to see the card often enough, then you can still cut it down to one.
Which means right now probably a Spell Pierce and either a Scooze or the Kitchen Finks.
On paper I'm still not really convinced about the Siren though.
For the siren, I suspect it'll be a ~3 of, or a 0 of.
I'm hopeful, but not holding my breath.
Other question, I'm looking at the most recent list on my phone from a while back... I assume I wasn't smoking something at the time, but I clearly decided that 20 lands was somehow viable. What are you guys running? I thought 21 was the standard but I can see for some reason I've dropped one and I can't figure out why.
So 21 lands is adequate and lets you squeeze in a manland, 20 is definetely on the greedy side and in my opinion only possible if you have a low curve (3x Cryptics as the only 4-drops, few 3-drops) and a good amount of cheap card draw.
I like my 20.5 land version with Traverse a lot. There are certainly downsides to treating Traverse as a land (taps only for one colour, 'enters tapped', can be countered/discarded, if you use it early it's not 'CA' like a manland would be, Leonin Arbiter, awkward to play if your only green source is a Flooded Grove) but in my opinion that downside is being made up for with the huge potential upside this card has (search for E-Wit, play again, search for Snap, play again, search for Clique/Scooze/Goyf/ whatever you need is nothing uncommon in grindy MUs and usually wins me the game).
I like this a lot. Oh how often I wished to be able to flashback SV at instant speed. Not sure if I will end up trying out a 4x SV 2x Opt or a 3x/2x split, but this is pretty sweet to have!
I'd highly stress to everyone who brewing to remember that eternal command is about the soft lock in a deck capable of doing something else, be it in red, white, or black, or even just U/G.
Don't get too pigeonholed trying to tweak current lists.
Which cards are you referring to? Opt is definitely pretty big for the deck and Modern as a whole. Then we have the Siren that has potential...I don't see these two 'totally changing' the deck. Do I miss something?
Its possible we want to be some 8 cantrip, low to the ground deck.
Maybe siren turns out to be super good, and we want several.
Maybe that means we cut a lot of the extra creatures (cutting cliques, for example) or shaving down on countermagic, or whatever.
I agree for sure. I'm not saying we should all just go ham on janky nonsense, however I am suggesting that a slight change to the balance of cards/numbers in the deck to accommodate potential powerful new tools is a good thing to think about.
I'm very conscious that over the years, the deck has become refined and everyone has kind of settled on 15 creatures and 20 (or 21) spells, plus vial. I can see those numbers more or less staying firm, but they could be tweaked slightly and the specific spells tweaked themselves.
Oh and holy mother of dog, Opt is so totally amazing for this deck. Instant way to dig to vial-targets? Ughhhjjjjjjjhhhghhhdjffjfjdhsjsjd it's so good
I see what you mean.
Thinking longer about it, Opt might actually turn out better in this deck than SV. Visions still digs a card deeper which is relevant if we really need to find a Cryptic or E-Wit for the lock, but being able to Snap it back, hold up Remand on turn 2 (or Pierce/Snare turn 1) without risking to lose too much tempo, digging for stuff to vial in at instant speed, being able to scry away excessive Vials or lands before you draw them...there's tons of upsight in this card.
We need a certain amount of Sorceries to have Goyf be an efficient beater often enough though. I can see cutting 1x SV max.
Running more solid cantrips could indeed throw our numbers over a little bit, allowing us to play 1-2 creatures less. 15x creatures is already incredibly low for a Vial deck though.
I personally will only test Opt at first, not the Siren. Gives you a better feel to evaluate the card. Probably cutting a Spell Pierce, a Remand and either the Kitchen Finks or a SV.
If we end up upping our cantrip count to 6+ (which I think we will) another card to consider again is actually Young Pyromancer. I've been trying it out from time to time but it always felt lackluster in Modern (no free counterspells), especially since the Probe ban. But with the ability to vial it in while having counters up, it could provide another threat that's solid on both offense (especially with Cryptic) and defense (buying a lot of time against Death's Shadow if unanswered, exactly what we want to sculp our hand for a final attack) while not relying on the graveyard, which is awesome.
This is the first time in ages we get something that could actually make this deck better for a solid amount. I'm hyped guys! haha
Sure it would have been awesome if Peezy could make use of otherwise more or less useless Vials, but I don't see a problem here.
If anything the questions if our spell count if high enough with about 22. Grixis Delver lists of old definitely played more spells. But some 18 lands Shadow lists adopted the card and they play about 24 spells usually, so it's not that much of a stretch.
I could be wrong, but I think the 17 land sleight builds of shadow were the ones that tended to play peezy.
Not too much of a difference either way though.
Just mentioning this because someone (I just glanced, can't remember who) mentioned dropping some of them.
Also how insanely good is opting into a witness EoT, vialling it in and getting back something powerful then untapping with all the answers. Very nice.
Agree that we still need sorceries in the deck for tarmogoyf. Maybe 3 visions, 1 traverse?
I'm running 1x tarfire and will probably keep it in the deck. As a one-of it's been instrumental in providing powerful surprise blocks and also just happens to work well against coco, affinity, d&t, elves, merfolk and so on. Haven't ever felt like the spell outstayed its welcome and it makes goyf nice and beefy at instant speed.
However, there are several factors you have to keep in mind, when adding more Cantrips.
First (and most obvious) you have more air in the deck. It will happen, that you cantrip into cantrip into nothing more, since the raw number of "air" cards increases while you decrease the targets.
Furthermore, for each 2 added cantrips you can usually cut a land. This means, if you go full in for the 8 Cantrips (4 SV and 4 Opt + maybe a Looting) you can go down to 20 lands without a problem, if you want to kick a utility land you can even go down to 19.
As an side effect (as already mentioned) Young Pyromancer gets a boost (same is true for Mentor btw for a possible Bant build). If you want to play Pyro (and than the full 4 Opt) + cut at least one land, the high end cards (4 Cryptics) are not that feasible anymore, since while you will hit your lands or can dig for them, hitting 4 on turn 4 will not be as given as currently.
However, Pyro has an amazing synergy with Familar's Ruse, where the "drawback" becomes non-existent, since you can just bounce a token and go along. This basically means, that a dedicated Vial Tempo build with 4 Pyro, 4 Goyf, 3 Snappies, 2 Witness, 2 Clique + Ruse instead of the full 4 high end Cryptics get better. Furthermore, since you are more on the lower side of the mana side (cause of more Cantrips, less lands and more stuff to do at instant speed), the cheaper counter-spells like Spell Pierce, Snare (not good in the current meta btw), Remand and Leak gets better. However, what specific counter set-up you want to run depends on the finial list and how much removal you are jamming. Since you can execute the tempo plan now better, Send to Sleep also gets more interesting since it taps down blockers for two whole turns.
However, the question is now, if would be even worth to add the Vial + Witness + Cryptic/Ruse package into the deck. From playing the deck in the past with Probe in a similar set-up (so with the above mentioned Creature set-up) I would say yes, since the draws with Vial are still bonkers.
Btw. Opt also makes the Bant Mentor version I tested a while ago better, however, I think, that Spellsqueller is still the better card overall (cause the inbuild "counter").
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
I will probably test this with some friends:
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Snapcaster Mage
2x Eternal Witness
1x Scavenging Ooze
2x Young Pyromancer
2x Vendillion Clique
4x Aether Vial
3x Remand
3x Cryptic Command
3x Serum Visions
4x Lightning Bolt
1x Familiar's Ruse
1x Traverse the Ulvenwald
1x Electrolyze
1x Vapor Snag
1x Spell Pierce
3x Opt
1x Forest
1x Steam Vents
1x Stomping Ground
2x Breeding Pool
4x Scalding Tarn
4x Misty Rainforest
2x Spirebluff Canal
1x Flooded Grove
1x Botanical Sanctum
2x Spreading Seas
2x Anger of the Gods
1x Ancient Grudge
1x Ceremonious Rejection
1x Engineered Explosives
2x Huntmaster of the Fells
1x Dispel
1x Surgical Extraction
1x Chameleon Colossus
1x Natural State
1x Basilisk Collar
1x Izzet Staticaster
Get some testing in and then see how to go from there.
This would allow us to potentially cut a lot of lands (given that we have vials and serum/opt/traverse/etc), as we no longer need 4 lands for cryptic.
4 serum visions
3 opt
1 traverse the ulvenwald
4 remand
2 spell pierce
3 familiar's ruse
1 roast
1 tarfire
1 grim lavamancer
1 scavenging ooze
4 tarmogoyf
4 snapcaster mage
2 young pyromancer
2 eternal witness
1 vendilion clique
Maybe I want something like electrolyze/forked bolt, vapor snag, izzet charm, or something else.
Maybe 18 lands is too many.
Anyways, deck certainly got interesting, IMO.
Playing all 8 copies, and going super land-light is a little questionable in cryptic versions of this deck. In ruse builds (as I posted) I feel this is the way to go. I'm still unsure if the ruse builds are going to be better than the command builds.
I may eat my words later, but I honestly think monastery mentor is still unplayable in modern. The difference between t3 pyro + spell and t4 mentor + spell is huge. Yea, the ceiling on mentor is higher, but I want the put the cards in my hand into play earlier. This isn't legacy miracles, where we just want the most effective finisher possible. We've got goyfs too.
Could you elaborate on the miracle grow builds? I'm familiar with the concept, the original decks, etc, but how do you feel that applies to this deck? What changes are going to be made?
Interesting point on remand. I don't totally disagree, but a cantrip heavy shell, with a focus on tempo and less on solid individual cards/late game value (like the original builds of eternal command) benefits greatly from remand.
I feel like spell pierce's stock is going up right now. While its unfortunate that it misses creatures (and red's removal isn't amazing right now) being able to hold pierce, and cast opt if they don't fall for it is pretty sweet.
I'm very hesitant to completely drop Cryptic though. It such a versatile card and shines in this deck like in no other on my opinion. The tap mode is also sweet synergy with Pyromancer (many decks that can't remove him early tend to be able to stall the board).
I can actually see playing the new Siren in that build a lot more than in the traditional ones. Pyro profits from protection more than Goyf and upping the Ruse count makes a 1-drop creature a lot more desirable (even though there's no great synergy between the two, simply having Ruse online turn 2 is pretty good).
If we keep 2x Cryptics, I don't think we can afford to cut Remands for Mana Leak, as the additional draw seems necessary to reach 4 lands by turn 4-5.
So my idea would look something like this:
4x Goyf
3x Pyromancer
2x Siren
2x Witness
3x Snap
1x Clique
2x Cryptic
2x Ruse
3x Remand
2x Spell Pierce
4x SV
4x Opt
4x Bolt
Not sure if the amount of actual action spells in there is big enough, maybe the whole Vial package is just too much but I'd give it a try.
Ixalan seems to shape up to be the best set Wizards has done in a while. I'm actually considering to look into Standard again.
Maybe I'm wrong, maybe not.
Definitely do like your list though.
My thoughts on standard as well