So the other night I had my first 4-0 at my LGS. It's a bigger LGS, usually with 40-50 players per night. Thought I'd give a quick breakdown. Here's the list:
Match 1: UG Infect (2-1)
Game 1: I trade my burn for early removal successfully, and end up getting him down to three. But he has a strong turn and gets me to nine poison with a Nexus. It comes down to if I draw a burn spell or not, and I draw...a Machinations. Feelsbadman.
Board in: 4x Searing Blaze, 3x Path to Exile
Board out: 4x Gonti's Machinations, 3x Lightning Helix (this is a special case of my opponent being fast but not actually damaging my life total, making Gonti pretty bad here. Also in retrospect, I think I should have boarded out Bumps and kept Helix, to have more targeted removal. If I had done that, I would have boarded out all four Bumps and brought in a Skullcrack so I didn't have to worry about black mana.)
Game 2: Pretty easy win, I have two Blazes with landfall to deal with his Glistener Elf and Blighted Agent.
Game 3: I have him down to 5 with burn spells aplenty in hand and a Guide on the field. He tries to go for the win with an Inkmoth Nexus. He tries to cast Vines of Vastwood on it, and I Shard Volley in response. He's one mana away from being able to Become Immense in response to that, and I win.
Match 2: Scapeshift (2-0)
Game 1: He mulls to five, and I mull to six here. It's a straight race, but his mulliganing hurt him badly.
Board in: 4x Skullcrack, 3x Path to Exile
Board out: 4x Gonti's Machinations, 3x Rift Bolt (again, a situation where he isn't really harming me until he goes in for the kill. I'm learning Gonti is better versus fair decks, and I probably side it out against combo, which makes sense).
Game 2: This time, we both mulligan to five. Fortunately, my mulligan gets me two lands, a Guide, a Swiftspear, and a Bump in the Night. I draw gas and he can't go off in time.
Match 3: Grixis Control (2-1)
Game 1: Definitely my closest match of the evening. Game one he blocks with a Guide an early Jace, Vryn's Prodigy, which I personally think was a mistake. He does stop my initial assault, but then we play the draw-go game and I bottle his counters and snaps for the win.
Board in: 3x Path to Exile
Board out: 3x Rift Bolt (I thought about taking out Helixes, but I decided I'd rather be able to play at instant speed as much as I can).
Game 2: His discard game is strong, and I end up having to spend a lot of my resources to destroy a Liliana, the Last Hope (redirect the damage trigger from my Eidolon on his casted Kozilek's Return, then Lava Spike her). Pretty soon I have no cards in hard and he's still at 15. A Gurmag Angler secures him the game.
Game 3: This game was interesting. I end up drawing three Swiftspears and a Guide, and he ends up drawing three Young Pyromancers. There's a lot of chump blocking and trading with elemental tokens. I'm glad I drew so many creatures to match his Pyromancers, otherwise I don't believe I would have won. He ends up flooding after that ground battle clears up, and I finish him with burn with three minutes left in the round.
Match 4: EldraziTron (2-0)
Game 1: My opponent offers the split, but I decide I wanted to play to try and go for 4-0. These games were blissfully quick, and I'm thankful I never saw a Chalice. Game one I just burn him out before he can assemble Tron, nothing special to talk about.
Board in: 4x Wear//Tear, 3x Path to Exile
Board out: 4x Eidolon of the Great Revel, 3x Rift Bolt
Game 2: I lead off with a Goblin Guide, followed by a Swiftspear and a Lightning Bolt. He's trying to stabilize as fast as he can. I get him down to three, and he hardcasts a Batterskull. I Path the token on his end step, and he scoops.
Overall, I'm extremely happy with how Gonti's is performing for me. I know I boarded it out in two games, and I've learned that it's not good against combo decks. I did topdeck it for the loss against Infect, and that's a very real potentiality. As of right now, I'm accepting that it's a bad topdeck in the way our creatures are bad topdecks. A lot of the speed in which I won had to do with Gonti's, and I'm not just saying that because I'm reporting. A lot of my opening plays were Guide/Swifty, followed by Gonti and then crack a fetch for another burn spell, giving me an energy and pumping Swifty twice. If you're on the fence about this card, I personally recommend it's worth testing.
Played a touch at my Lgs last night, only 7 people showed.
Round 1: lost to merfolk after a mull to 5 in game 3.
Got a bye round 2.
Round 3 vs Mardu Prowess with main deck seeker of the way, Monastery Mentor, Swiftspear, and burn spells.
Game 1, I had 2 Guides and 2 Swift spears and picked off a few of his dudes.
Game 2 was exciting. I got him down to 6, with a rift bolt suspended and a Skullcrack in hand. He has a seeker in play and 5 lands--2 bump in the night in the GY. He plays Leyline, and I skullcrack in response. He shoots me with a bump in the night from hand and swings with Seeker, and I'm down to 1.
I untap and send Rift Bolt at the Seeker. Topdeck a swiftspear and put him at 2. Pass, he draws a blood crypt that he has to play tapped and passes back. I topdeck a helix and shoot myself for the prowess trigger and the win.
So the other night I had my first 4-0 at my LGS. It's a bigger LGS, usually with 40-50 players per night. Thought I'd give a quick breakdown. Here's the list:
Match 1: UG Infect (2-1)
Game 1: I trade my burn for early removal successfully, and end up getting him down to three. But he has a strong turn and gets me to nine poison with a Nexus. It comes down to if I draw a burn spell or not, and I draw...a Machinations. Feelsbadman.
Board in: 4x Searing Blaze, 3x Path to Exile
Board out: 4x Gonti's Machinations, 3x Lightning Helix (this is a special case of my opponent being fast but not actually damaging my life total, making Gonti pretty bad here. Also in retrospect, I think I should have boarded out Bumps and kept Helix, to have more targeted removal. If I had done that, I would have boarded out all four Bumps and brought in a Skullcrack so I didn't have to worry about black mana.)
Game 2: Pretty easy win, I have two Blazes with landfall to deal with his Glistener Elf and Blighted Agent.
Game 3: I have him down to 5 with burn spells aplenty in hand and a Guide on the field. He tries to go for the win with an Inkmoth Nexus. He tries to cast Vines of Vastwood on it, and I Shard Volley in response. He's one mana away from being able to Become Immense in response to that, and I win.
Match 2: Scapeshift (2-0)
Game 1: He mulls to five, and I mull to six here. It's a straight race, but his mulliganing hurt him badly.
Board in: 4x Skullcrack, 3x Path to Exile
Board out: 4x Gonti's Machinations, 3x Rift Bolt (again, a situation where he isn't really harming me until he goes in for the kill. I'm learning Gonti is better versus fair decks, and I probably side it out against combo, which makes sense).
Game 2: This time, we both mulligan to five. Fortunately, my mulligan gets me two lands, a Guide, a Swiftspear, and a Bump in the Night. I draw gas and he can't go off in time.
Match 3: Grixis Control (2-1)
Game 1: Definitely my closest match of the evening. Game one he blocks with a Guide an early Jace, Vryn's Prodigy, which I personally think was a mistake. He does stop my initial assault, but then we play the draw-go game and I bottle his counters and snaps for the win.
Board in: 3x Path to Exile
Board out: 3x Rift Bolt (I thought about taking out Helixes, but I decided I'd rather be able to play at instant speed as much as I can).
Game 2: His discard game is strong, and I end up having to spend a lot of my resources to destroy a Liliana, the Last Hope (redirect the damage trigger from my Eidolon on his casted Kozilek's Return, then Lava Spike her). Pretty soon I have no cards in hard and he's still at 15. A Gurmag Angler secures him the game.
Game 3: This game was interesting. I end up drawing three Swiftspears and a Guide, and he ends up drawing three Young Pyromancers. There's a lot of chump blocking and trading with elemental tokens. I'm glad I drew so many creatures to match his Pyromancers, otherwise I don't believe I would have won. He ends up flooding after that ground battle clears up, and I finish him with burn with three minutes left in the round.
Match 4: EldraziTron (2-0)
Game 1: My opponent offers the split, but I decide I wanted to play to try and go for 4-0. These games were blissfully quick, and I'm thankful I never saw a Chalice. Game one I just burn him out before he can assemble Tron, nothing special to talk about.
Board in: 4x Wear//Tear, 3x Path to Exile
Board out: 4x Eidolon of the Great Revel, 3x Rift Bolt
Game 2: I lead off with a Goblin Guide, followed by a Swiftspear and a Lightning Bolt. He's trying to stabilize as fast as he can. I get him down to three, and he hardcasts a Batterskull. I Path the token on his end step, and he scoops.
Overall, I'm extremely happy with how Gonti's is performing for me. I know I boarded it out in two games, and I've learned that it's not good against combo decks. I did topdeck it for the loss against Infect, and that's a very real potentiality. As of right now, I'm accepting that it's a bad topdeck in the way our creatures are bad topdecks. A lot of the speed in which I won had to do with Gonti's, and I'm not just saying that because I'm reporting. A lot of my opening plays were Guide/Swifty, followed by Gonti and then crack a fetch for another burn spell, giving me an energy and pumping Swifty twice. If you're on the fence about this card, I personally recommend it's worth testing.
How did this feel with just 18 lands? I found it hard to reliably have 2 mana on turn 2 when I played an 18-land, 2 SSG Bushwhacker Zoo.
Also, I've considered adding Sulfurous Springs as an additional way to trigger Machinations without the need to sandbag or topdeck fetchlands. Can't see how to fit them in a 18-land list though...
Overall, I'm extremely happy with how Gonti's is performing for me. I know I boarded it out in two games, and I've learned that it's not good against combo decks. I did topdeck it for the loss against Infect, and that's a very real potentiality. As of right now, I'm accepting that it's a bad topdeck in the way our creatures are bad topdecks. A lot of the speed in which I won had to do with Gonti's, and I'm not just saying that because I'm reporting. A lot of my opening plays were Guide/Swifty, followed by Gonti and then crack a fetch for another burn spell, giving me an energy and pumping Swifty twice. If you're on the fence about this card, I personally recommend it's worth testing.
I've tested and posted some videos on Gonti early on (its in the early thread).
I didn't like it very much - its imo is even less consistence then Shrine.
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Board in: 4x Wear//Tear, 3x Path to Exile
Board out: 4x Eidolon of the Great Revel, 3x Rift Bolt
Just wanted to say that you should NEVER board out Rift Bolt against E-Tron since it plays around Chalice.
This x 1000
It's important to remember this early game in sequencing. Normally, playing rift bolt earlier is preferred because of the suspend/delay. But you're actually better off firing off your other spells that cost 1 first so as to not get blown out by chalice and be stuck with a hand full of lightning bolts/lava spikes
Overall, I'm extremely happy with how Gonti's is performing for me. I know I boarded it out in two games, and I've learned that it's not good against combo decks. I did topdeck it for the loss against Infect, and that's a very real potentiality. As of right now, I'm accepting that it's a bad topdeck in the way our creatures are bad topdecks. A lot of the speed in which I won had to do with Gonti's, and I'm not just saying that because I'm reporting. A lot of my opening plays were Guide/Swifty, followed by Gonti and then crack a fetch for another burn spell, giving me an energy and pumping Swifty twice. If you're on the fence about this card, I personally recommend it's worth testing.
I've tested and posted some videos on Gonti early on (its in the early thread).
I didn't like it very much - its imo is even less consistence then Shrine.
Thanks for the tip, much appreciated. I totally agree on the Rift Bolt call.
So the other night I had my first 4-0 at my LGS. It's a bigger LGS, usually with 40-50 players per night. Thought I'd give a quick breakdown. Here's the list:
Match 1: UG Infect (2-1)
Game 1: I trade my burn for early removal successfully, and end up getting him down to three. But he has a strong turn and gets me to nine poison with a Nexus. It comes down to if I draw a burn spell or not, and I draw...a Machinations. Feelsbadman.
Board in: 4x Searing Blaze, 3x Path to Exile
Board out: 4x Gonti's Machinations, 3x Lightning Helix (this is a special case of my opponent being fast but not actually damaging my life total, making Gonti pretty bad here. Also in retrospect, I think I should have boarded out Bumps and kept Helix, to have more targeted removal. If I had done that, I would have boarded out all four Bumps and brought in a Skullcrack so I didn't have to worry about black mana.)
Game 2: Pretty easy win, I have two Blazes with landfall to deal with his Glistener Elf and Blighted Agent.
Game 3: I have him down to 5 with burn spells aplenty in hand and a Guide on the field. He tries to go for the win with an Inkmoth Nexus. He tries to cast Vines of Vastwood on it, and I Shard Volley in response. He's one mana away from being able to Become Immense in response to that, and I win.
Match 2: Scapeshift (2-0)
Game 1: He mulls to five, and I mull to six here. It's a straight race, but his mulliganing hurt him badly.
Board in: 4x Skullcrack, 3x Path to Exile
Board out: 4x Gonti's Machinations, 3x Rift Bolt (again, a situation where he isn't really harming me until he goes in for the kill. I'm learning Gonti is better versus fair decks, and I probably side it out against combo, which makes sense).
Game 2: This time, we both mulligan to five. Fortunately, my mulligan gets me two lands, a Guide, a Swiftspear, and a Bump in the Night. I draw gas and he can't go off in time.
Match 3: Grixis Control (2-1)
Game 1: Definitely my closest match of the evening. Game one he blocks with a Guide an early Jace, Vryn's Prodigy, which I personally think was a mistake. He does stop my initial assault, but then we play the draw-go game and I bottle his counters and snaps for the win.
Board in: 3x Path to Exile
Board out: 3x Rift Bolt (I thought about taking out Helixes, but I decided I'd rather be able to play at instant speed as much as I can).
Game 2: His discard game is strong, and I end up having to spend a lot of my resources to destroy a Liliana, the Last Hope (redirect the damage trigger from my Eidolon on his casted Kozilek's Return, then Lava Spike her). Pretty soon I have no cards in hard and he's still at 15. A Gurmag Angler secures him the game.
Game 3: This game was interesting. I end up drawing three Swiftspears and a Guide, and he ends up drawing three Young Pyromancers. There's a lot of chump blocking and trading with elemental tokens. I'm glad I drew so many creatures to match his Pyromancers, otherwise I don't believe I would have won. He ends up flooding after that ground battle clears up, and I finish him with burn with three minutes left in the round.
Match 4: EldraziTron (2-0)
Game 1: My opponent offers the split, but I decide I wanted to play to try and go for 4-0. These games were blissfully quick, and I'm thankful I never saw a Chalice. Game one I just burn him out before he can assemble Tron, nothing special to talk about.
Board in: 4x Wear//Tear, 3x Path to Exile
Board out: 4x Eidolon of the Great Revel, 3x Rift Bolt
Game 2: I lead off with a Goblin Guide, followed by a Swiftspear and a Lightning Bolt. He's trying to stabilize as fast as he can. I get him down to three, and he hardcasts a Batterskull. I Path the token on his end step, and he scoops.
Overall, I'm extremely happy with how Gonti's is performing for me. I know I boarded it out in two games, and I've learned that it's not good against combo decks. I did topdeck it for the loss against Infect, and that's a very real potentiality. As of right now, I'm accepting that it's a bad topdeck in the way our creatures are bad topdecks. A lot of the speed in which I won had to do with Gonti's, and I'm not just saying that because I'm reporting. A lot of my opening plays were Guide/Swifty, followed by Gonti and then crack a fetch for another burn spell, giving me an energy and pumping Swifty twice. If you're on the fence about this card, I personally recommend it's worth testing.
How did this feel with just 18 lands? I found it hard to reliably have 2 mana on turn 2 when I played an 18-land, 2 SSG Bushwhacker Zoo.
Also, I've considered adding Sulfurous Springs as an additional way to trigger Machinations without the need to sandbag or topdeck fetchlands. Can't see how to fit them in a 18-land list though...
I used elcon's keepable hand statistics in this primer for determining whether I felt comfortable going to 18 lands or not. While 18 lands was slightly worse than 20 lands in determining optimal keep rates, it was only by .3% versus 20 land builds. If I recall correctly, I believe he said his sample size allowed for results with a margin of error up to 1%, which means this difference could be statistically explained by that. In addition, I'm playing eight more one drops than the build he used to calculate, which means I can easily foresee the keep rate surpassing the 20 land build with my specific 60.
Overall, it's REALLY hard for the human brain to accurately tell the differences in something like this. I had two games where I kept a one land hand in my tournament. I'm not sure if that would have changed with an extra 1-2 lands. To be honest, I'm doubtful. I do know that playing 18 lands lets me play a full playset of Lightning Helix, and my one drop count is quite low compared to other burn lists.
In terms of Sulfurous Springs, I'm not sure I would play it. My build is pretty goldfishy, and I think that means you wanna max out on your fetchlands to sculpt your colors as much as possible. YMMV, though.
Board in: 4x Wear//Tear, 3x Path to Exile
Board out: 4x Eidolon of the Great Revel, 3x Rift Bolt
Just wanted to say that you should NEVER board out Rift Bolt against E-Tron since it plays around Chalice.
This x 1000
It's important to remember this early game in sequencing. Normally, playing rift bolt earlier is preferred because of the suspend/delay. But you're actually better off firing off your other spells that cost 1 first so as to not get blown out by chalice and be stuck with a hand full of lightning bolts/lava spikes
Also (and I'm sure this is hugely irrelevant), with an Eidolon/Machinations out you can fuse Wear//Tear to remove a chalice on 2 Even better, you can sack the Machinations in response and W/T will still resolve
Against Abzan and Jund, you should just be aggressive with creatures early and then play around their discard while chipping away at them. Eidolon is strong here. Try to hold lands in your hand if possible so that you can discard them to Liliana. If you draw an instant as your only card in hand, hold it until their turn to force them to play a discard spell or activate Liliana. If you draw Spike/Rift Bolt, just play it. Path, Palm, and maybe graveyard hate can help against those. Land destruction via Molten Rain can also be interesting against them, since you could lock them out of a color for a little while.
I don't like the idea of using Molten Rain to try and disrupt colors/tron assembling since it quite unlikely. That said I DO believe that Jund/Azban Rock are the main reason to run Molten Rain for since its the only way you can stop manlands once your in a lilly lock (since Jund/Azban Rock arn't that common anymore Molten Rain has been disappearing from SB).
P.S. Why are some of you double posting all the time for? We have an edit button for a reason.
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sb is in need of some work obviously. CoB seems weird but it not only fixes all my colors, but it works with gonti and makes it so i dont have to fetch for shocks. in my past experience, vexing devil has always been 4 to the dome. i had a guy take 12 from 3 of them. obviously, feel free to critique and im sure theres lots people will say is wrong. please give reason behind everything you say. thank you
Against Abzan and Jund, you should just be aggressive with creatures early and then play around their discard while chipping away at them. Eidolon is strong here. Try to hold lands in your hand if possible so that you can discard them to Liliana. If you draw an instant as your only card in hand, hold it until their turn to force them to play a discard spell or activate Liliana. If you draw Spike/Rift Bolt, just play it. Path, Palm, and maybe graveyard hate can help against those. Land destruction via Molten Rain can also be interesting against them, since you could lock them out of a color for a little while.
I don't like the idea of using Molten Rain to try and disrupt colors/tron assembling since it quite unlikely. That said I DO believe that Jund/Azban Rock are the main reason to run Molten Rain for since its the only way you can stop manlands once your in a lilly lock (since Jund/Azban Rock arn't that common anymore Molten Rain has been disappearing from SB).
P.S. Why are some of you double posting all the time for? We have an edit button for a reason.
I tend to make two posts when I'm responding to multiple people with quotes, since I think it looks inelegant to make one post quoting multiple people on multiple topics with multiple responses. I wasn't aware that this is an issue.
I tend to make two posts when I'm responding to multiple people with quotes, since I think it looks inelegant to make one post quoting multiple people on multiple topics with multiple responses. I wasn't aware that this is an issue.
I'm not sure if its against the rules here but it is in many other forums. It just seem rude to me when someone litters a page with multiple post in a row without anyone else commenting in between.
It might appear so on paper, but since you need fetches and shocks in order to control when they are turned on, and you mostly fetch and shock in the beginning of the match, gontis cast after turn 2 are a lot more difficult to turn on, why the first is much better than the second
The first Gonti shouldn't be cracked when you have 2x energy since you should be holding onto it so that you can gain more energy for future Gonti draws. Its also best when you draw it earlier for the initial cracking since more is better for higher chances for early draws.
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I tend to make two posts when I'm responding to multiple people with quotes, since I think it looks inelegant to make one post quoting multiple people on multiple topics with multiple responses. I wasn't aware that this is an issue.
I'm not sure if its against the rules here but it is in many other forums. It just seem rude to me when someone litters a page with multiple post in a row without anyone else commenting in between.
I haven't ever "littered a page" with posts. I've done it a handful of times in the several years I've been posting here. I think you're blowing something way out of proportion for no reason in particular.
It might appear so on paper, but since you need fetches and shocks in order to control when they are turned on, and you mostly fetch and shock in the beginning of the match, gontis cast after turn 2 are a lot more difficult to turn on, why the first is much better than the second. The goal is to turn them on effortlessly, without changing our lines and sequencing too much, so, as much as possible, Gonti can act as a lava spike.
If you draw Gonti's early, you should play it ASAP and let it sit there until the end of the game so that you bank energy counters. You're unlikely to have to worry about a Split Second destruction spell.
It might appear so on paper, but since you need fetches and shocks in order to control when they are turned on, and you mostly fetch and shock in the beginning of the match, gontis cast after turn 2 are a lot more difficult to turn on, why the first is much better than the second
The first Gonti shouldn't be cracked when you have 2x energy since you should be holding onto it so that you can gain more energy for future Gonti draws. Its also best when you draw it earlier for the initial cracking since more is better for higher chances for early draws.
I tend to make two posts when I'm responding to multiple people with quotes, since I think it looks inelegant to make one post quoting multiple people on multiple topics with multiple responses. I wasn't aware that this is an issue.
I'm not sure if its against the rules here but it is in many other forums. It just seem rude to me when someone litters a page with multiple post in a row without anyone else commenting in between.
Point taken. Haven't posted in ages, so had a lot to say I'll keep it in one post next time
I'm pretty sure his multiple post comment was directed solely at me.
It might appear so on paper, but since you need fetches and shocks in order to control when they are turned on, and you mostly fetch and shock in the beginning of the match, gontis cast after turn 2 are a lot more difficult to turn on, why the first is much better than the second
The first Gonti shouldn't be cracked when you have 2x energy since you should be holding onto it so that you can gain more energy for future Gonti draws. Its also best when you draw it earlier for the initial cracking since more is better for higher chances for early draws.
So we might disagree on the numbers of eidolons and Gonti. I'm assuming you're advocating for 4 instead of my 3, but the point of the post was actually to discuss the merits of playing black in addition to white in modern burn. Are you still in Boros, or do you believe Mardu could be better?
I think you pretty much always want 4 Eidolons. If you're playing Gonti's Machinations, part of the reason is to lower your curve and that means you probably want 4 of those, too.
I think that black alone is too weak from the sideboard standpoint and that you need either white or green to make up for it. While Destructive Revelry is the stronger card, I think that white is stronger as a whole and that Mardu is better than RB. The reason to play RW or RWg is to get strong white cards and DRev in the case of RWg, but to do so while minimizing self damage. I personally am on Naya with Atarka's Command and without Wild Nacatl, and have been for years. I think the CMC effect is not particularly large and I think that AC is powerful enough for maindeck green.
(for the record, I think that this comment with multiple quotes addressing multiple people and multiple topics is too dense and cluttered)
Notes: both Gonti and Eidolon are shaved to 3 MB do to diminishing returns in multiples. Eidolon has been performing worse for me lately, seldomly winning games I wasn't winning already and losing some game games I would have won without? Thoughts? Favouring low cmc of spells to increase clock, but lose life gain and prevent life gain from Crack and Helix. In the board, the Bedlam Reveler is in the test phase for control/Jund/rock decks. RCharm has been great against any deck trying to flood the board (Coco, affinity and Merfolk besides the obv GY hate, where both modes are live against storm (Goblins), living end and dredge.
Cheers
I agree that you want 4x of both Gonti and Eidolon. Both cards are cards that are best on turn two, and get worse as the game goes on. Eidolon because the damage it does is directly related to how long it's around, and Gonti because the longer it sits on the field the more energy you can build for future subsequent draws. Because of this, you really want to maximize the chances you'll see them in your opener.
I like both Collective Brutality and Rakdos Charm as flexible charm slots in the sideboard. I don't have the room to play either, and I think I'd play Radkos Charm before I played Brutality, but I like that they're tools we have depending on specific metagames or future shifts. My biggest concern for Brutality is that it screams aggro hate in the color that I want to be cutting post-board against aggro decks.
I feel like Collective Brutality is either a creature kill spell or a gain/drain on a player and never anything more than that in Burn. If you're able to escalate it as a Burn deck, things aren't going well for you. You'd only ever pitch lands to it, and if you're pitching lands to it then you're probably flooding and in trouble and escalating it doesn't help you. If it's only one mode, Lightning Helix is a gain/drain on a player or a kill spell and is just better at those modes than Brutality.
I feel like Collective Brutality is either a creature kill spell or a gain/drain on a player and never anything more than that in Burn. If you're able to escalate it as a Burn deck, things aren't going well for you. You'd only ever pitch lands to it, and if you're pitching lands to it then you're probably flooding and in trouble and escalating it doesn't help you. If it's only one mode, Lightning Helix is a gain/drain on a player or a kill spell and is just better at those modes than Brutality.
I agree with you. I was thinking the discard might be useful versus opposing discard, lifegain, or board wipes, but that seems like a stretch to count on. Besides, I feel like most lifegain nowadays is stapled to creatures. I think I just want Helix and Blaze.
EDIT: And now that I'm thinking about it, don't I just want D.Rev or Wear//Tear and Relic or RIP in place of Rakdos Charm? Typically I feel like charms are awesome in aggro decks because it provides a plethora of slightly weaker answers, saving us card slots for threats, but I think white pretty much does all of that but better already. I could see Rakdos Charm being played in a go-wide heavy meta (Merfolk, Affinity, Elves, etc). If that were the case, I'd use them as my graveyard hate, and play a 3-3 split of them and Wear//Tear. But then again I think to myself, isn't it better just to cut black versus aggro?
4x Arid Mesa
4x Wooded Foothills
4x Bloodstained Mire
2x Blood Crypt
2x Sacred Foundry
2x Mountain
Creatures
4x Goblin Guide
4x Monastery Swiftspear
4x Eidolon of the Great Revel
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Rift Bolt
4x Lava Spike
4x Bump in the Night
4x Gonti's Machinations
2x Shard Volley
Other Burn
4x Boros Charm
4x Lightning Helix
4x Searing Blaze
4x Skullcrack
4x Wear // Tear
3x Path to Exile
Match 1: UG Infect (2-1)
Game 1: I trade my burn for early removal successfully, and end up getting him down to three. But he has a strong turn and gets me to nine poison with a Nexus. It comes down to if I draw a burn spell or not, and I draw...a Machinations. Feelsbadman.
Board in: 4x Searing Blaze, 3x Path to Exile
Board out: 4x Gonti's Machinations, 3x Lightning Helix (this is a special case of my opponent being fast but not actually damaging my life total, making Gonti pretty bad here. Also in retrospect, I think I should have boarded out Bumps and kept Helix, to have more targeted removal. If I had done that, I would have boarded out all four Bumps and brought in a Skullcrack so I didn't have to worry about black mana.)
Game 2: Pretty easy win, I have two Blazes with landfall to deal with his Glistener Elf and Blighted Agent.
Game 3: I have him down to 5 with burn spells aplenty in hand and a Guide on the field. He tries to go for the win with an Inkmoth Nexus. He tries to cast Vines of Vastwood on it, and I Shard Volley in response. He's one mana away from being able to Become Immense in response to that, and I win.
Match 2: Scapeshift (2-0)
Game 1: He mulls to five, and I mull to six here. It's a straight race, but his mulliganing hurt him badly.
Board in: 4x Skullcrack, 3x Path to Exile
Board out: 4x Gonti's Machinations, 3x Rift Bolt (again, a situation where he isn't really harming me until he goes in for the kill. I'm learning Gonti is better versus fair decks, and I probably side it out against combo, which makes sense).
Game 2: This time, we both mulligan to five. Fortunately, my mulligan gets me two lands, a Guide, a Swiftspear, and a Bump in the Night. I draw gas and he can't go off in time.
Match 3: Grixis Control (2-1)
Game 1: Definitely my closest match of the evening. Game one he blocks with a Guide an early Jace, Vryn's Prodigy, which I personally think was a mistake. He does stop my initial assault, but then we play the draw-go game and I bottle his counters and snaps for the win.
Board in: 3x Path to Exile
Board out: 3x Rift Bolt (I thought about taking out Helixes, but I decided I'd rather be able to play at instant speed as much as I can).
Game 2: His discard game is strong, and I end up having to spend a lot of my resources to destroy a Liliana, the Last Hope (redirect the damage trigger from my Eidolon on his casted Kozilek's Return, then Lava Spike her). Pretty soon I have no cards in hard and he's still at 15. A Gurmag Angler secures him the game.
Game 3: This game was interesting. I end up drawing three Swiftspears and a Guide, and he ends up drawing three Young Pyromancers. There's a lot of chump blocking and trading with elemental tokens. I'm glad I drew so many creatures to match his Pyromancers, otherwise I don't believe I would have won. He ends up flooding after that ground battle clears up, and I finish him with burn with three minutes left in the round.
Match 4: EldraziTron (2-0)
Game 1: My opponent offers the split, but I decide I wanted to play to try and go for 4-0. These games were blissfully quick, and I'm thankful I never saw a Chalice. Game one I just burn him out before he can assemble Tron, nothing special to talk about.
Board in: 4x Wear//Tear, 3x Path to Exile
Board out: 4x Eidolon of the Great Revel, 3x Rift Bolt
Game 2: I lead off with a Goblin Guide, followed by a Swiftspear and a Lightning Bolt. He's trying to stabilize as fast as he can. I get him down to three, and he hardcasts a Batterskull. I Path the token on his end step, and he scoops.
Overall, I'm extremely happy with how Gonti's is performing for me. I know I boarded it out in two games, and I've learned that it's not good against combo decks. I did topdeck it for the loss against Infect, and that's a very real potentiality. As of right now, I'm accepting that it's a bad topdeck in the way our creatures are bad topdecks. A lot of the speed in which I won had to do with Gonti's, and I'm not just saying that because I'm reporting. A lot of my opening plays were Guide/Swifty, followed by Gonti and then crack a fetch for another burn spell, giving me an energy and pumping Swifty twice. If you're on the fence about this card, I personally recommend it's worth testing.
Mardu Burn
Monogreen Stompy
Legacy
Burn
Pauper
Dimir Flicker
Monowhite Tokens
Round 1: lost to merfolk after a mull to 5 in game 3.
Got a bye round 2.
Round 3 vs Mardu Prowess with main deck seeker of the way, Monastery Mentor, Swiftspear, and burn spells.
Game 1, I had 2 Guides and 2 Swift spears and picked off a few of his dudes.
Game 2 was exciting. I got him down to 6, with a rift bolt suspended and a Skullcrack in hand. He has a seeker in play and 5 lands--2 bump in the night in the GY. He plays Leyline, and I skullcrack in response. He shoots me with a bump in the night from hand and swings with Seeker, and I'm down to 1.
I untap and send Rift Bolt at the Seeker. Topdeck a swiftspear and put him at 2. Pass, he draws a blood crypt that he has to play tapped and passes back. I topdeck a helix and shoot myself for the prowess trigger and the win.
How did this feel with just 18 lands? I found it hard to reliably have 2 mana on turn 2 when I played an 18-land, 2 SSG Bushwhacker Zoo.
Also, I've considered adding Sulfurous Springs as an additional way to trigger Machinations without the need to sandbag or topdeck fetchlands. Can't see how to fit them in a 18-land list though...
I've tested and posted some videos on Gonti early on (its in the early thread).
I didn't like it very much - its imo is even less consistence then Shrine.
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This x 1000
It's important to remember this early game in sequencing. Normally, playing rift bolt earlier is preferred because of the suspend/delay. But you're actually better off firing off your other spells that cost 1 first so as to not get blown out by chalice and be stuck with a hand full of lightning bolts/lava spikes
Thanks for the tip, much appreciated. I totally agree on the Rift Bolt call.
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Monogreen Stompy
Legacy
Burn
Pauper
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I used elcon's keepable hand statistics in this primer for determining whether I felt comfortable going to 18 lands or not. While 18 lands was slightly worse than 20 lands in determining optimal keep rates, it was only by .3% versus 20 land builds. If I recall correctly, I believe he said his sample size allowed for results with a margin of error up to 1%, which means this difference could be statistically explained by that. In addition, I'm playing eight more one drops than the build he used to calculate, which means I can easily foresee the keep rate surpassing the 20 land build with my specific 60.
Overall, it's REALLY hard for the human brain to accurately tell the differences in something like this. I had two games where I kept a one land hand in my tournament. I'm not sure if that would have changed with an extra 1-2 lands. To be honest, I'm doubtful. I do know that playing 18 lands lets me play a full playset of Lightning Helix, and my one drop count is quite low compared to other burn lists.
In terms of Sulfurous Springs, I'm not sure I would play it. My build is pretty goldfishy, and I think that means you wanna max out on your fetchlands to sculpt your colors as much as possible. YMMV, though.
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Monogreen Stompy
Legacy
Burn
Pauper
Dimir Flicker
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Also (and I'm sure this is hugely irrelevant), with an Eidolon/Machinations out you can fuse Wear//Tear to remove a chalice on 2 Even better, you can sack the Machinations in response and W/T will still resolve
I'm 100% that's a mistake.
P.S. Why are some of you double posting all the time for? We have an edit button for a reason.
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4x Arid Mesa
4x Scalding Tarn
2x Blood Crypt
1x Stomping Ground
1x Sacred Foundry
4x Mountain
4x Goblin Guide
4x Monastery Swiftspear
4x Eidolon of the Great Revel
2x Vexing Devil
4x Rift Bolt
4x Bump in the Night
4x Lava Spike
4x Gonti's Machinations
3x Shard Volley
4x Skullcrack
2x Destructive Revelry
2x Atarka's Command
2x Deflecting Palm
2x Rakdos Charm
2x Path to Exile
2x Volcanic Fallout
3x Searing Blaze
sb is in need of some work obviously. CoB seems weird but it not only fixes all my colors, but it works with gonti and makes it so i dont have to fetch for shocks. in my past experience, vexing devil has always been 4 to the dome. i had a guy take 12 from 3 of them. obviously, feel free to critique and im sure theres lots people will say is wrong. please give reason behind everything you say. thank you
I tend to make two posts when I'm responding to multiple people with quotes, since I think it looks inelegant to make one post quoting multiple people on multiple topics with multiple responses. I wasn't aware that this is an issue.
Revel can also help you win games when your behind but it can be tricky to play with.
I'm not sure if its against the rules here but it is in many other forums. It just seem rude to me when someone litters a page with multiple post in a row without anyone else commenting in between.
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I haven't ever "littered a page" with posts. I've done it a handful of times in the several years I've been posting here. I think you're blowing something way out of proportion for no reason in particular.
If you draw Gonti's early, you should play it ASAP and let it sit there until the end of the game so that you bank energy counters. You're unlikely to have to worry about a Split Second destruction spell.
This is correct.
I'm pretty sure his multiple post comment was directed solely at me.
I think you pretty much always want 4 Eidolons. If you're playing Gonti's Machinations, part of the reason is to lower your curve and that means you probably want 4 of those, too.
I think that black alone is too weak from the sideboard standpoint and that you need either white or green to make up for it. While Destructive Revelry is the stronger card, I think that white is stronger as a whole and that Mardu is better than RB. The reason to play RW or RWg is to get strong white cards and DRev in the case of RWg, but to do so while minimizing self damage. I personally am on Naya with Atarka's Command and without Wild Nacatl, and have been for years. I think the CMC effect is not particularly large and I think that AC is powerful enough for maindeck green.
(for the record, I think that this comment with multiple quotes addressing multiple people and multiple topics is too dense and cluttered)
I agree that you want 4x of both Gonti and Eidolon. Both cards are cards that are best on turn two, and get worse as the game goes on. Eidolon because the damage it does is directly related to how long it's around, and Gonti because the longer it sits on the field the more energy you can build for future subsequent draws. Because of this, you really want to maximize the chances you'll see them in your opener.
I like both Collective Brutality and Rakdos Charm as flexible charm slots in the sideboard. I don't have the room to play either, and I think I'd play Radkos Charm before I played Brutality, but I like that they're tools we have depending on specific metagames or future shifts. My biggest concern for Brutality is that it screams aggro hate in the color that I want to be cutting post-board against aggro decks.
Mardu Burn
Monogreen Stompy
Legacy
Burn
Pauper
Dimir Flicker
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I agree with you. I was thinking the discard might be useful versus opposing discard, lifegain, or board wipes, but that seems like a stretch to count on. Besides, I feel like most lifegain nowadays is stapled to creatures. I think I just want Helix and Blaze.
EDIT: And now that I'm thinking about it, don't I just want D.Rev or Wear//Tear and Relic or RIP in place of Rakdos Charm? Typically I feel like charms are awesome in aggro decks because it provides a plethora of slightly weaker answers, saving us card slots for threats, but I think white pretty much does all of that but better already. I could see Rakdos Charm being played in a go-wide heavy meta (Merfolk, Affinity, Elves, etc). If that were the case, I'd use them as my graveyard hate, and play a 3-3 split of them and Wear//Tear. But then again I think to myself, isn't it better just to cut black versus aggro?
Mardu Burn
Monogreen Stompy
Legacy
Burn
Pauper
Dimir Flicker
Monowhite Tokens