That's a good move investing on fetchlands. They will increase in value with time, and you can use them to help build other decks. How did you board against Cheerios. Or you just tried to outrace the combo?
Agree on you with the scavenging ooze. He's good against plenty of decks... since many decks in modern use the graveyard these days. And even against decks that don't use the grave.. he's still good. There was one time my ooze grew to 8/8 against a Goblin deck - the life gained and the giant ooze won that game. Ooze is nice as a 2 of in the main, with an argument for 3 in the main for graveyard heavy metas... since the first ooze played is most likely going to be killed by something.
Anafenza is good as long as you can reliably cast her. A big creatiure herself, helps with the +1/+1 counter plan, and can act as grave hate 5-6 against certain decks when ooze is not enough.
So we've moved just completely away from mono green now? Doesn't at all seem like the same deck whatsoever. Curious as to why the above belongs here and not in an abzan forum?
MONO Green wise I am looking at Skylasher and Great Sable Stag as both being great meta choices even if side. I think Treetop isn't though and should probably be put away. Canopy is better, Field of Ruin is good for us, or even Tec Edge. Treetop dies to the million land destroyers, bolt, push, comes in tapped... we have better options.
This is getting a little ridiculous. There are other primers for Abzan decks or whatever colors. Can we please stick to the purpose of this thread? I feel this has gone way off track from how it began.
Treetop dies to the million land destroyers, bolt, push, comes in tapped... we have better options.
You have to think that if we're using treetop village for dealing 3 more trample damage it means we have an excess of lands and treetop it's just a mana sink. So I wouldn't bother if our opponent wastes a removal for it.
I didn't expect people to be negative towards Treetop Village, I'm surprised!
And not even for the fact that it comes into play tapped, which is the normal reason to dislike it.
Yes, Treetop dies against every kind of creature removal and land removal, and that sometimes happens, but it's an extra creature, it's uncounterable, and it survives boardwipes. It's got natural trample, and is a mana sink for the later part of the game. In my opinion it is very strong, and only weighs down by the fast that it comes into play tapped. It even makes green mana, something that is crucial for us.
Like Myrmadillo said, we need lands that make green mana, no matter what.
And amicdeep, as much as I appreciate your work on the deck and the exploring of new ideas, I think going Abzan for our deck is destroying ALL the advantages we have as a mono green Stompy deck. You don't play Aspect of Hydra anymore, making us slower, your manabase is definitely not Blood Moon-proof anymore, and it's far from painless either.
I understand that Anafenza, the Foremost is a really good card, but a double splash is slowing us down immensely and is both turning us more into a midrange deck, and making us a lot more vulnerable to a lot of other decks.
I think a white splash for Path to Exile, Dromoka's Command and Gaddock Teeg already is a heavy investment, but could be worth it in the right meta. The devotion/Aspect.. aspect of our deck is one of the most important parts of our deck, and I would strongly suggest not to drop it, even with a splash.
I really like your changes amic! Although I can't afford it on paper, I'll give it a try on XMage.
For those who think that is ridiculous: I can say that we must move forward and be creative, and not too much conservative on the mono color. We're in a Developing Competitive section and not in a Budget thread, even though this deck was born as a budget deck.
And if a deck wants to be competitive nowadays it really needs: graveyard hate, explosiveness and REMOVALS. We have no effective removal apart from Dismember, and a push or a path are really needed IMHO. Of course without the aspect of hydra the deck lose the surprise effect, but it gains more consistency due to the counters aspect.
That's a huge reply!
I don't know if I can answer everything you have said, but let me try.
First off, I understand your reasoning. I know that the meta has changed and our #1 best matchup (Twin) is sadly gone forever. Eldrazitron and Death's Shadow decks are still awful, but there are a few downsides to splashing double:
You still lose all the advantages mono green has. I agree that Blood Moon isn't a huge part of the meta, and isn't as significant as the other upsides mono green has, but the other two are.
You automatically make your Burn matchup a lot worse, and you can't board that out (in comparison to mono green running Dismember, which you can side out to basically have no life loss on your side of the match), and Burn is still one of the biggest decks around.
When you lose Aspect of Hydra, you have a harder time racing against a lot of decks, like Affinity, Tron, Storm, Ad Nauseam and Scapeshift, which, depending on the deck, may be played less than others, but Affinity, Tron and Storm are still tier 1 decks, and being able to finish your opponent a turn earlier can be the difference between winning or losing.
Another thing is a thing I myself am not really 100% on, but: most people who play Stompy don't have the budget for a single splash, let alone a double one. I understand that this shouldn't hold people back, this isn't a budget section, and I don't want you to stop testing because every bit of information can be useful, but know that not many people will be able to test with you (and more people testing is always better: more different interactions, more different metas etc.) or upgrade their deck like you can.
Either way, keep it up and keep stomping!
Ok after a night of spermatic play testing and brewing this is what I've descovered
Path > push
Hooting mandrils > Tasigur (the native trample is just better than the extra defence. And Tasigur ability is just not used)
<snip>
I'm not yet shore if the increase in power (and it's definitely more powerful) is worth the increased vunrablety to hate decks like eldrzi hate bears and blood moon. Will have to wait and see how the meta shifts. But it's definitely worth exploring.
Since I haven't commented on this yet... strangely enough eventhough it's turned into Abzan manabase, it still feels like Stompy because Eexperiment, Strangleroot, Dryad, Avatar, and Rancor are all still there. It's like a high budget version of Stompy, although of course this would probably raise some disagreements, espescially with the monogreen purists of the deck.. we should at least try to explore these other possibilities that Stompy could go.
I'm surprised to see no discussion about one of the new RIX toys - Thrashing Brontodon. Last time I played the deck (was around the last modern WMCQ - 2016?), certain artifacts and enchantments were a big trouble - Ensnaring Bridge, Wurmcoil Engine, Worship, Phyrexian Unlife - the list could go on. At the time Deglamer effects (for Wurmcoil) and Natural State (for everything else) were our best answers, but drawing them without any target was pretty bad.
But now we have a way to deal with these permanents that doesn't suck when they don't have them. And the stats are great for a 3 mana creature, too! It's smaller than a Baloth, but I believe the time for Baloth to shine is long time gone.
Yeah, I agree that Manglehorn is just a lot better. The discussion about this is at the end of page 4/start of page 5 of this thread.
Also, I'm still a bit confused about Pharika, God of Affliction. It kind of overlaps with Scavenging Ooze, except that it can only hit creatures, and the snake token comes into play for the owner of the exiled card, making it horrible to deal with our opponent's graveyard.
I'm surprised to see no discussion about one of the new RIX toys - Thrashing Brontodon. Last time I played the deck (was around the last modern WMCQ - 2016?), certain artifacts and enchantments were a big trouble - Ensnaring Bridge, Wurmcoil Engine, Worship, Phyrexian Unlife - the list could go on. At the time Deglamer effects (for Wurmcoil) and Natural State (for everything else) were our best answers, but drawing them without any target was pretty bad.
But now we have a way to deal with these permanents that doesn't suck when they don't have them. And the stats are great for a 3 mana creature, too! It's smaller than a Baloth, but I believe the time for Baloth to shine is long time gone.
The Brontodon does look good. Thanks for posting about it, reminded me to pre-order a playset at SCG.
Other card I'm wanting to test is Jadelight Ranger.. but the price is just too high right now.
I feel like Jadelight Ranger suffers from the same problems as Reverent Hunter. It enters the battlefield with its base stats, then gets bigger off a trigger. But this means it doesn’t evolve Experiment One very well (a 3 drop entering at 2/1 for 3 isn’t good) and it’s so very vulnerable to removal while that trigger is on the stack.
And as for other uses of Explore, I don’t think they fit right with our deck. Our deck seldom needs land after #3 so exploring and hitting land with this hurts. We don’t do graveyard play so milling is no side benefit. And we run ‘surprise’ instants whose surprise is lost if we reveal them.
Brontodon can POTENTIALLY replace Baloth. Baloth is still such a huge body for 3. Really torn about that slow: Brontodon, Baloth, Groundbreaker are all equally good in different ways.
As for the Jadelight Ranger: I've been testing it and really like it. It's really great later so you don't dead draw a 2nd or 3rd Militant or late Experiment One. It's a good filter and potentially a 4/3 for 3 that gets you through dead draws.
Jadelight isn't just body. Our entire lineup can be fatal pushed. It's card filtering. Failing the X test is an argument that just doesn't work in an era of push
Mandrills can’t be pushed. Dungrove can’t be pushed. Rhonas can’t be pushed. Zero-counter Strangleroot or 2+counter Experiment One can endure a Push. There’s a lot of push resilience in a lot of the creatures some flavours of Stompy use.
And even relative to bolt, this is weak to Electrolyze, to Lavamancer, to Kolaghan’s Command, Forked Bolt, Searing Blaze, Grapeshot, Izzet Charm. Again, all the reasons we don’t play Reverent Hunter.
The filtering isn’t that good for the conditions and risks. As a body, its best case is Prowling Serpopard - a 4/3 for 1GG. But serpopard’s abilities, and Jadelight’s trigger-on-the-stack vulnerability, offset against Jadelight’s filtering and counters-matter help ... makes them pretty close to comparable. And even Serpopard seldom makes our cut.
Jadelight isn't just body. Our entire lineup can be fatal pushed. It's card filtering. Failing the X test is an argument that just doesn't work in an era of push
How many Jadelight are you using in the maindeck right now? Anyway, I think it's better to keep testing it. This might be the 3 drop that we've been waiting for to replace Baloth. Or could be run on a 2/2 split with baloth.
I can't test yet... because it's still too expensive. But I will get some once the price gets lower.
That's a good move investing on fetchlands. They will increase in value with time, and you can use them to help build other decks. How did you board against Cheerios. Or you just tried to outrace the combo?
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Can you give us more information about the matches, what you sided in/out, how it went?
And can you elaborate on the 3x Scooze main?
All the information we can get is helpful, keep up the good work!
Agree on you with the scavenging ooze. He's good against plenty of decks... since many decks in modern use the graveyard these days. And even against decks that don't use the grave.. he's still good. There was one time my ooze grew to 8/8 against a Goblin deck - the life gained and the giant ooze won that game. Ooze is nice as a 2 of in the main, with an argument for 3 in the main for graveyard heavy metas... since the first ooze played is most likely going to be killed by something.
Anafenza is good as long as you can reliably cast her. A big creatiure herself, helps with the +1/+1 counter plan, and can act as grave hate 5-6 against certain decks when ooze is not enough.
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Want to play a UW control deck in modern, but don't have jace or snaps?
Please come visit us at the Emeria Titan control thread
MONO Green wise I am looking at Skylasher and Great Sable Stag as both being great meta choices even if side. I think Treetop isn't though and should probably be put away. Canopy is better, Field of Ruin is good for us, or even Tec Edge. Treetop dies to the million land destroyers, bolt, push, comes in tapped... we have better options.
Neither of those supply green mana. If you're running a high devotion deck with Aspect of Hydra, they're going to be problematic.
Budget Modern: GStompyG | R8-WhackR
You have to think that if we're using treetop village for dealing 3 more trample damage it means we have an excess of lands and treetop it's just a mana sink. So I wouldn't bother if our opponent wastes a removal for it.
G Mono Green Stompy G
UR UR Delver Prowess UR
URBGrixis DelverURB
RBWMardu PyromancerRBW
And not even for the fact that it comes into play tapped, which is the normal reason to dislike it.
Yes, Treetop dies against every kind of creature removal and land removal, and that sometimes happens, but it's an extra creature, it's uncounterable, and it survives boardwipes. It's got natural trample, and is a mana sink for the later part of the game. In my opinion it is very strong, and only weighs down by the fast that it comes into play tapped. It even makes green mana, something that is crucial for us.
Like Myrmadillo said, we need lands that make green mana, no matter what.
And amicdeep, as much as I appreciate your work on the deck and the exploring of new ideas, I think going Abzan for our deck is destroying ALL the advantages we have as a mono green Stompy deck. You don't play Aspect of Hydra anymore, making us slower, your manabase is definitely not Blood Moon-proof anymore, and it's far from painless either.
I understand that Anafenza, the Foremost is a really good card, but a double splash is slowing us down immensely and is both turning us more into a midrange deck, and making us a lot more vulnerable to a lot of other decks.
I think a white splash for Path to Exile, Dromoka's Command and Gaddock Teeg already is a heavy investment, but could be worth it in the right meta. The devotion/Aspect.. aspect of our deck is one of the most important parts of our deck, and I would strongly suggest not to drop it, even with a splash.
Also, welcome Stu.!
I really like your changes amic! Although I can't afford it on paper, I'll give it a try on XMage.
For those who think that is ridiculous: I can say that we must move forward and be creative, and not too much conservative on the mono color. We're in a Developing Competitive section and not in a Budget thread, even though this deck was born as a budget deck.
And if a deck wants to be competitive nowadays it really needs: graveyard hate, explosiveness and REMOVALS. We have no effective removal apart from Dismember, and a push or a path are really needed IMHO. Of course without the aspect of hydra the deck lose the surprise effect, but it gains more consistency due to the counters aspect.
G Mono Green Stompy G
UR UR Delver Prowess UR
URBGrixis DelverURB
RBWMardu PyromancerRBW
I don't know if I can answer everything you have said, but let me try.
First off, I understand your reasoning. I know that the meta has changed and our #1 best matchup (Twin) is sadly gone forever. Eldrazitron and Death's Shadow decks are still awful, but there are a few downsides to splashing double:
You still lose all the advantages mono green has. I agree that Blood Moon isn't a huge part of the meta, and isn't as significant as the other upsides mono green has, but the other two are.
You automatically make your Burn matchup a lot worse, and you can't board that out (in comparison to mono green running Dismember, which you can side out to basically have no life loss on your side of the match), and Burn is still one of the biggest decks around.
When you lose Aspect of Hydra, you have a harder time racing against a lot of decks, like Affinity, Tron, Storm, Ad Nauseam and Scapeshift, which, depending on the deck, may be played less than others, but Affinity, Tron and Storm are still tier 1 decks, and being able to finish your opponent a turn earlier can be the difference between winning or losing.
Another thing is a thing I myself am not really 100% on, but: most people who play Stompy don't have the budget for a single splash, let alone a double one. I understand that this shouldn't hold people back, this isn't a budget section, and I don't want you to stop testing because every bit of information can be useful, but know that not many people will be able to test with you (and more people testing is always better: more different interactions, more different metas etc.) or upgrade their deck like you can.
Either way, keep it up and keep stomping!
Since I haven't commented on this yet... strangely enough eventhough it's turned into Abzan manabase, it still feels like Stompy because Eexperiment, Strangleroot, Dryad, Avatar, and Rancor are all still there. It's like a high budget version of Stompy, although of course this would probably raise some disagreements, espescially with the monogreen purists of the deck.. we should at least try to explore these other possibilities that Stompy could go.
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Want to play a UW control deck in modern, but don't have jace or snaps?
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But now we have a way to deal with these permanents that doesn't suck when they don't have them. And the stats are great for a 3 mana creature, too! It's smaller than a Baloth, but I believe the time for Baloth to shine is long time gone.
MTGO: UberMower
Also, I'm still a bit confused about Pharika, God of Affliction. It kind of overlaps with Scavenging Ooze, except that it can only hit creatures, and the snake token comes into play for the owner of the exiled card, making it horrible to deal with our opponent's graveyard.
The Brontodon does look good. Thanks for posting about it, reminded me to pre-order a playset at SCG.
Other card I'm wanting to test is Jadelight Ranger.. but the price is just too high right now.
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Want to play a UW control deck in modern, but don't have jace or snaps?
Please come visit us at the Emeria Titan control thread
And as for other uses of Explore, I don’t think they fit right with our deck. Our deck seldom needs land after #3 so exploring and hitting land with this hurts. We don’t do graveyard play so milling is no side benefit. And we run ‘surprise’ instants whose surprise is lost if we reveal them.
As for the Jadelight Ranger: I've been testing it and really like it. It's really great later so you don't dead draw a 2nd or 3rd Militant or late Experiment One. It's a good filter and potentially a 4/3 for 3 that gets you through dead draws.
The filtering isn’t that good for the conditions and risks. As a body, its best case is Prowling Serpopard - a 4/3 for 1GG. But serpopard’s abilities, and Jadelight’s trigger-on-the-stack vulnerability, offset against Jadelight’s filtering and counters-matter help ... makes them pretty close to comparable. And even Serpopard seldom makes our cut.
How many Jadelight are you using in the maindeck right now? Anyway, I think it's better to keep testing it. This might be the 3 drop that we've been waiting for to replace Baloth. Or could be run on a 2/2 split with baloth.
I can't test yet... because it's still too expensive. But I will get some once the price gets lower.
Nexus MTG News // Nexus - Magic Art Gallery // MTG Dual Land Color Ratios Analyzer // MTG Card Drawing Odds Calculator
Want to play a UW control deck in modern, but don't have jace or snaps?
Please come visit us at the Emeria Titan control thread