I was talking about this in the GR Super Vengevine thread. I just don't think it flies. As you noted, we're thin enough on land and we try to do our big hits early enough that actual 4-drops aren't a thing until the game outcome is a foregone conclusion. Most of our creatures wouldn't get cascaded - Hollow One, Mandrills/Angler, Vengevine, Wraith all cost 4+, variants that run Reckless Bushwhacker don't get to Surge it.
They brought back BBE because Modern has gotten so fast that a 4-drop is often late to the party. That's because decks like this one are working to end the party early, not trying to make sure the party is running long enough that things we pay 4 for actually happen.
I don't think it being 'free' offsets the fact that it still costs you a card (it's only recovering to top-of-library, not to hand).
I'd be slightly more inclined towards Ghoulcaller's Chant - always gets you a creature to-hand so is card-advantage-neutral, and if your graveyard happens to have two Gurmag Anglers... well, you probably don't have the mulch to cast both anyway.
Overall, I can't see these cards fitting in to the current aggro build. We take our chances with all the random looting. The deck usually isn't surviving the long game (with exceptions sometimes of course!). I think it's why decks that used to play Call to the Netherworld weren't competitive enough. Assuming we try one of these cards, what would we cut? I can't see cutting any of the looters, or perhaps maybe one, but which one? That leaves our two flex spots, which I think Collective Brutality overall fits much better into our game plan. (I played Jund and exercised all 3 modes to drop 2 Bloodghast into yard, kill a Bob and take a Kolaghan's Command, while draining life. In any event, is running 1 or 2 of those recursion cards worth it?
Maybe Macabre Waltz can work to get back creatures but all these options probably aren't efficient enough to be worth it.
Oh, that's damned cute. As noted below, I'm not convinced it's an upgrade on Collective Brutality, but damn that's some fine tech... I'll get back these here Hollow Ones that are now cheaper, and pitch something that'll auto-resurrect as a 'cost'.
i played a league with a list that instead of trying to negate card disadvantage, went with it. aka utilizing infernal tutor ... with a small toolbox of cards... it was okay, but slower for sure. We could easily utilize that card or traverse the ulvenwald ... but the question is if we want to...
ive definitely noticed matches getting tougher now that people are more used to the deck and how it "functions" lol
Sideboarding too much is definitely something I've struggled with. I would definitely be helped by hearing about others experience with what to bring in because a lot of the sideboard cards seem relevant in matchups where they're not necessarily optimal. I'm on the RB version. Running through some of the top decks (this is not authoritative; it's just brainstorming):
Relevant: Blood Moon, Ancient Grudge
Out: Bolt? It doesn't answer any threats, but it speeds up the clock by going to the dome.
My sense is that Grudge is too cute. +2 Moons; -2 Bolts
Relevant: Blood Moon, Grim Lavamancer, Ancient Grudge, Fatal Push
Out: Nothing is bad, but Brutality is probably worst card.
Fatal Push comes in for sure. Moon is probably too slow and is hurt by Aether Vial. +2 Push; -2 Brutality.
Relevant: Blood Moon, Big Game Hunter, Fatal Push, Leyline
Out: Probably Brutality, and maybe Burning Inquiry does help their game plan
Not confident at all about this one. BGH for sure. Push probably. Leyline (shuts down snapcaster, tasigur & angler) and Moon (very vulnerable mana base) can be powerful, but I don't know. I also don't know how they side for us. My guess: +2 BGH, +2 Push; -2 Brutality, -2 Inquiry
Relevant: Fatal Push, Grim Lavamancer
Out: Street Wraith does Burn's work for them
+2 Push, +2 Lavamancer, -4 Wraith
Relevant: Ancient Grudge, Blood Moon, Fatal Push, Grim Lavamancer
Do we actually become the control deck here? I have no idea what the best strategy is here.
Relevant: Blood Moon, Leyline
Just standing pat seems right to me.
Relevant: Blood Moon, Big Game Hunter, Fatal Push, Ancient Grudge, Collective Brutality
Grudge and Moon seem essential. After that, not sure. +2 Grudge, +2 Moon, +2 BGH; -4 Bolt, -2 Bloodghast
Relevant: Collective Brutality, Fatal Push, Leyline
I know I want to bring Brutality and Push in. I think Leyline is probably pretty good. But I have no idea what to take out. Maybe thin on creatures? A guess: +1 Brutality, +2 Push, +3 Leyline; -2 Angler, -2 Phoenix, -2 Goblin Lore
Out: Brutality isn't great, but neither is Burning Inquiry which may help them as much as it helps us.
+3 Leyline; -2 Brutality, -1 Inquiry
Relevant: Brutality, Big Game Hunter
+1 Brutality, +2 BGH; -3 Bolt
Relevant: Fatal Push, Grim Lavamancer, Leyline
I haven't played this matchup yet, and I'm really not confident about what to do.
Relevant: Leyline, Blood Moon, Fatal Push, Big Game Hunter
Out: Their threats get out of range of Bolt pretty fast, but they are vulnerable to direct damage.
Another one that I am very unsure about. I want to bring in +3 Leyline, +2 Moon, +2 Push, +2 BGH. They all seem very good. But I have no idea how to take out 9 cards from the deck. Maybe remove the Street Wraiths because they have such a fast clock that we don't want to help them? They frequently operate from an empty hand, so maybe Brutality isn't that good?
Relevant: Leyline, Fatal Push, Big Game Hunter, Ancient Grudge
Out: Brutality, Bolt isn't great, Inquiry helps them
All of our options are situationally good, but imperfect. Not sure if Leyline is worth it, but I'll go: +2 BGH, +3 Leyline; -2 Brutality, -2 Inquiry, -1 Wraith
I brought RG hollowvengevine to the modern RPTQ awhile ago but didn't make top 8. I've only done a few minor changes since then but I still like the deck quite a bit and am currently planning on bringing it to GP PHX. I built the deck a little different from some RG lists but have no experience using the RB version and would be curious if people who have done both think it's quite a bit better or not. My deck for referecne:
4 Faithless Looting
4 Goblin Lore
3 Burning Inquiry
2 Lightning Bolt
2 Become Immense
4 Street Wraith
I think lots of people may get over-eager on getting a super early hollow one but I have one tons of games by making sure I get full value out of my cards, either setting things up when possible and also being willing to hard cast my Phoenix's and Vengevines regularly, and occasionally my Hollow Ones (Although I generally don't want more than 3 lands out). But sometimes being a little patient, and you can go from an empty board to 5-6 creatures in any combo of Hollow One, Vengevine, Phx, etc. and just blow someone out.
I also want to re-iterate to people that a T1 Flameblade Adept is almost always better than a T1 Hollow One. If you lead with Adept, you do your burning inquiry/ loot+wraith T2 anyways, and the Adept attacks for 4, the same as what Hollow one would be attacking for, but it would require 2 creatures to block it. Additionally, you wouldn't have wanted to randomly discard your Adept T1, and now you get to be one card deeper into your deck from your draw which helps you find another Hollow One or FWP/Vengevine to discard.
Compare that to a T1 Hollow One, where now you attack for 4 on T2, but your T1 discards didn't get to do any damage, and now your Adept is much worse, and then you draw into a second Hollow One that if you waited you might have played also.
Become Immense has been really good for me, but I still wonder if I should cut it to 1, or just play more Hooting Mandrills (not as good as Angler, but it's not worth splashing black for that and he still brings back FWP). Become Immense can be played on anything to trigger your flamewake phoenix's as well, and it can just win games out of nowhere, so I'm leaving it as is for now, but I kinda want a second Mandrill in there. Cut another MB Grim Lavamancer?
And finally for the SB, I've been conflicted on what graveyard hate to run. I've been using Tormod's Crypt lately, while admittedly weaker in a vaccuum than lots of stuff, I find that this deck uses all it's mana almost every turn. Taking a whole early turn off to play GY hate doesn't seem ideal when our early turns are so crucial to out-racing. Leyline of the Void is an option, but with how much the deck draws through itself you will end up with excess copies in hand that you'll have to hope to discard away later. On that same note, since you go through the deck so much, I feel like it's easy to draw into a Tormod's Crypt and then just drop it down in the match-ups where it matters. I've admittedly played against few GY based opponents and so have had limited chances to test this in practice. What do you all think?
I'd love to hear your thoughts, and if you think this list is just worse than other ones I'd love to hear why. Thanks!
Whether you’re playing 1 mandrills 2 immense or vice versa ... I don’t see the benefit of running a second color (and opening yourself up to nonbasic land hate) for three cards (and the occasional hard cast Vengevine - imho if you’re hard casting Vine you’ve probably already lost).
The deck I’ve been tuning is a whole lot like yours only running the Burning Tree Emissary and Reckless Bushwhacker package for some truly explosive turns ... and an all-Mountain land base.
I've been conflicted on what graveyard hate to run. I've been using Tormod's Crypt lately, while admittedly weaker in a vaccuum than lots of stuff, I find that this deck uses all it's mana almost every turn. Taking a whole early turn off to play GY hate doesn't seem ideal when our early turns are so crucial to out-racing. Leyline of the Void is an option, but with how much the deck draws through itself you will end up with excess copies in hand that you'll have to hope to discard away later.
I have the same approach, I don't want to use mana to hate my opponent out. In my opinion the 3 best options for graveyard hate in this deck are: Leyline of the Void, Ravenous Trap or Faerie Macabre Faerie Macabre is great agains't vizier combo and snapcasters and you can also use it aggresively if needed to fuel an early Hollow One or even as a finisher to pump Fireblade Adept but I think you can win these matchups without needing a specific hate card, I found Ravenous Trap to be very good agains't Storm as they can't play around it or even know if you have it while they can set up a bunch of goblins if they face Leyline of the Void from your opener.
Right now, I believe Leyline of the Void could probably be the best option since it completely shuts delve creatures in the mirror and I expect this deck to show up more and more after last pro tour but I haven't switched yet as I am dedicating only 2 slots to GY hate and Leyline needs to be a 3x or 4x if you want it reliably in your opener hand but I might try to make some space for it (let's see how the meta evolves after the unbans)
Further, I am wondering about your 4 Flamewake Phoenices. I have 2 and I like them, but isn't 4 not a bit too many? In BR Hollow One most decks run 4, but they don't need to revive Vengevine.
I run 4. Just like in BR Hollow, you want 8 things that you actually want to discard, because you won't always have the Bloodghast/Vengevine that would be your first choice, but you still want to get more value out of your discards even when you don't draw those.
And while reviving Flamewake doesn't help you get back a Vengevine... keep in mind that reviving a Vengevine DOES help you get back a Flamewake. It's not 2-way synergy, but it is 1-way. Bloodghast and Flamewake don't have any synergy at all either way.
Can the rg vengevine chat go to the vengevine primer? There is a primer for that? This is BR “hollow one” or as I like to call it “roulette”
Makes it hard to sift through the info.
Anyone actually tested macabre waltz???
Just did a leage with 0 grave hate SB. Went 4-1. Beat dredge even with their Leyline out. Started to realize we don’t need it really. We can race dredge often. Grixis shadow can be taken down with bgh and push plus going wide... other matches it’s kinda meh. Going to try a list just with faerie macabre Sb later.
The title says Modern Hollow One.
The OP lists Gruul, Rakdos, and Jund as the three flavors, right up front. (I actually play a fourth flavor - mono-red. It runs both Vengevines and Street Wraiths but never casts them; all the lands are basic Mountains, and all the colored spells it has any intention of casting are red and can be cast using only basic Mountains)
The only person that seems to think this thread is exclusively about Rakdos Roulette is you. This has been Hollow One in multiple flavors from the very start.
Oh, and you know what kind of replies we get in the RGVengevine thread when people DARE bring up Hollow One?
So, would I be bullied out of the gruul thread because I run street wraiths but don’t intend to cast them, or would I be bullied out of the rakdos thread because I run Vengevines but don’t intend to cast them?
This whole forum system is so full of alpha dogs who think they’ve claimed their terrritory and have the authority to order others to leave the premises because they marked it for their discussion and nobody else’s would be tolerated...
Call acts as an extra Street Wraith when you need that last Discard to drop multiple Hollow Ones, or to pump an Adept just a bit more. I've dealt 11 damage on Turn 2 with an Adept before, but I will admit it's just dead too often to play more than 1 or 2 at max. I'm down to 1, myself.