Very decent card, it stands its own on an empty field, it represent a different threat than curious obsession against control, it's very good at generating tempo against midrange and it's always a sweet card against burn. I ve used it to replace obsession because I wanted to diversify a little bit.
Digging ten is crazy yet very slow, and if you ultimate fast you were winning the game already most of the times. I'm hoping for improved 3cmc PW in the future, but this is definitely a reasonable one.
Very decent card, it stands its own on an empty field, it represent a different threat than curious obsession against control, it's very good at generating tempo against midrange and it's always a sweet card against burn. I ve used it to replace obsession because I wanted to diversify a little bit.
Digging ten is crazy yet very slow, and if you ultimate fast you were winning the game already most of the times. I'm hoping for improved 3cmc PW in the future, but this is definitely a reasonable one.
Think he might be a reasonable sideboard choice in UW? I don't think I can replace my obsessions in the main because Thalia, but the attention and long-term value might be good for my build, too.
So you guys are full on board with obsession eh? I've tried it at various times, but I always end up cutting it. It's good vs. certain decks, but against the top decks I don't see it being that good.
I play almost WU Spirits exclusively on MTGO in competitive leagues so your facing a lot of the top decks. What are peoples thoughts on how to sideboard vs. Phoenix builds?
I've been following Gerry Thompson and using 4 Auriok Champion in the SB. It's so good vs. Dredge, Burn, Hollow One, and Death Shadow that going with the full four just makes sense. It totally swings those match-ups in our favor. However, you end up having to warp your SB a bit.
I've also been fiddling a lot with the flex slots of which there are five in my view. Three two drop slots, two three drop slots. One one drop slot if you want to shave a fourth path.
I've tried Thalia, but damn she dies to gut shot easily. Currently I've been trying three copies of Spirit of the Labyrinth. With that card is good, it is bonkers. Its better vs. Control in my view than Thalia. But like Thalia it is vulnerable. Of course its also a spirit and so its easier to protect. The other option is to go with a split between your Selfless Spirit, Thalia/Labyrinth, and then Remorseful Cleric. Maybe a 3-2-2 split. I've literally been fiddling with the two drop flex spot for two years, and can't seem to find what works best in the current meta.
At the three drop slot I'd like to try Dovin again. Tried a couple when it first came out but went away. I keep going back to Nebelghast Herald and Kirra as my 9-10 three drops.
Would love to here from people how they SB vs. Izzet Phoenix. I'm bringing in a Worship and two copies of Damping Sphere. Also would like to know if anyone has tried going all in on the Aurioks.
Speaking of siding against Phoenix, is that crazy to cut all the 4 mausoleum wanderers? I ve been trying so many post side configurations and cutting wanderers has been the most convincing.
The reason is that you can't realistically counter looting or cantrips, best case scenario you trade for an early morphose. It's hard to even trade with a bolt because they always get to play the number of lands they need to safely cast their stuff. The longer the game goes, the worse wanderer gets to be, it's an horrible top deck because it races poorly and it doesn't even trade with a phoenix by its own.
Spirit of labyrinth is fine against looting, but as much as I love playing just spirts in this deck, I think thalia offers a better tax plan against the field, especially now hollow one is gone and so is pyromancer.
Damping sphere is good when deployed early but I ended up leaving it in the side, I value rest in peace way more because it shuts the flashback of looting which is incredibly good in the mid game. That flashback allows them to cycle lands and flip a thing in the ice which would take turns to do so otherwise. Also getting rid of Phoenix permanently is pretty good. I ve read many plans and I don't see RiP that often and I'm surprised. I find it very relevant even in esper where I'm loosing half a Lingering souls.
Dovin also works better in esper because of all the tokens you can produce, not that it wouldn't work in UW, because it's true that my esper version plays as a regular UW sprits a lot of times where I don't get to draw souls, but it's overall better positioned in such a version with higher removal count and souls. I feel like it's a flexible mb card, sideboard needs silver bullets. This is how I intend it.
Testing in competitive leagues is the only reliable source of informations by the way: you won't get to play against that density of top tier decks and good pilots at any local event nor in any friendly league, so keep it up.
Thanks for responding StrexIt. I'm pretty sure I've played you before, but now I'll be on the lookout:) I play a league almost every day, although right now I'm feeling a bit tilted as in the current meta getting 5-0 is so difficult (4-1 is totally reasonable), so I've been trying my pet Eternal Command decks.
When I first joined MTGO I was playing pure budget WU, then I added Souls and loved it. I went away when I was having lots of success in competative with WU - before the rise of Phoenix and the new shift in the meta - but maybe now I should reconsider it. Souls would buy you a ton of time vs. the top decks for sure.
Thanks for your thoughts on the SB plan. Have you tried Auriok Champion? Man that card is good vs some of the best decks. I've liked the four of. My greatest weakness as a player, and I'm sure I'm not alone here, is with side boarding, both in building the SB and in making decisions about what to bring in. I find that I win a lot of game ones with Spirits, even against the top decks, and you would think that once we go to SB I would be favored because of how good white is, but that's not how it plays out. I believe I over side board and take my deck away from what it does best: Disrupt and get hexproof locks in the air.
I think the reason people shy away from Rest in Peace is because Phoenix has so many ways to attack you, and they see so many cards that cutting them off of flashback looting and phoenix recursion isn't the end of the world. The card that beats us in my view is Thing in the Ice. I also like to be able to moorland haunt to buy time. Cage might be a consideration but they pack some number of Abrade's. Because I'm running four Auriok I've gone away from Cage in the SB - with two RIP I don't want to be devoting anymore than 6 cards to dredge.
What I would love is for some number of WU/WUB spirits players to collaborate to build a SB and SB plan for folks. I'm pretty confident in my ability to pilot the deck - playing basically every day for two plus years will do that - but figuring out the flex slots and the SB + plan is much more challenging in the ever changing meta of modern.
Spirit of the Labyrinth has no flying which is a huge drawback. It dies to anything, it cant block and easily dies when is blocked. In order for it to work fine in a spirit tribe you need to have at least two lords on the field.
MTG Top 8 has two recent UW spirit lists that have done well in decent tourneys that are running 18 lands. Is this a new innovation that anyone else is seeing?
I have not seen those lists. What do they consist of? How played them?
Presumably, the poster is talking about this list by Yohaan Mangani, who took 2nd place at an open, and another list by Mattew Nelson, who made top 8 at the NRG Championship Trial. MTG Top 8 has a number of other UW Spirits lists as well that did well in tournaments using 21 lands.
I play 20 and I feel its the right number. I tried 19 and had difficulties hitting my 3d landrop when Vial was not on the field.
Going down to 18 is INSANE. I have no idea but I feel like they got lucky with their draws
I play 20 and I feel its the right number. I tried 19 and had difficulties hitting my 3d landrop when Vial was not on the field.
Going down to 18 is INSANE. I have no idea but I feel like they got lucky with their draws
Agreed. Vial performs admirably as land slots 21-24, but they're like bouncelands in that they guarantee you the ability to play 3 drops while being a tempo loss when played late that risks turning your game plan into a Jenga tower. I don't want to put additional strain on my vials, especially since both lists above use their former land slots to run additional 3 drops.
Correct. I actually played a league last night with Yahaan Mangani's configuration - minus the Geist of St. Traft for an extra Selfless Spirit and went 4-1 losing in the final round to Amulet Titan. It felt decent, but a very limited sample. Feels risky for sure. Humans runs 18-19 lands, with four Horizon Canopy, but they also have 4 Noble H.
I was particularly surprised to see both lists keep three colorless mana sources. I could see pushing it with 19, but 18 over 12 rounds seems very risky. Perhaps with the London Mulligan we will see something like this become more reasonable?
ok, recently 4 phoenix decks appeared in my meta. I want to add 2x Remorsefull Cleric but the only way to do so is to eaither cut 1x Selfless Spirit and 1x Phantasmal Image or cut both Phantasmal Images but jeees.. is it worth cutting 2x Phantasmal Images for 2x Remosrfull Clerics/???? I Mean Images are so good in copying Drogskull Captain..
ok, recently 4 phoenix decks appeared in my meta. I want to add 2x Remorsefull Cleric but the only way to do so is to eaither cut 1x Selfless Spirit and 1x Phantasmal Image or cut both Phantasmal Images but jeees.. is it worth cutting 2x Phantasmal Images for 2x Remosrfull Clerics/???? I Mean Images are so good in copying Drogskull Captain..
You play UW, right? Take out both Phantasmal Images. Sure, the ceiling is double drogskols, but the floor is crap. Image has a lot to gain from instant timing, but, without Coco, your only recourse is Aether Vial, which you will want to have at 3 in many cases. Image is also nearly impossible to protect without already having a drogskol, and it's downright lousy against phoenix.
4 Mausoleum Wanderer
4 Selfless Spirit
4 Rattlechains
4 Supreme Phantom
4 Spell Queller
4 Drogskol Captain
Spells: 15
4 Aether Vial
3 Fatal Push
2 Path to Exile
2 Collective Brutality
3 Lingering Souls
1 Dovin, Grand Arbiter
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted delta
2 Hallowed Fountain
1 Watery Grave
1 godless shrine
2 Seachrome coast
2 Darkslick shore
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Stony Silence
2 Rest In Peace
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
2 Damping Sphere
2 Countersquall
1 Favorable winds
1 Deputy of Detention
1 Detention Sphere
1 Worship
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Digging ten is crazy yet very slow, and if you ultimate fast you were winning the game already most of the times. I'm hoping for improved 3cmc PW in the future, but this is definitely a reasonable one.
Think he might be a reasonable sideboard choice in UW? I don't think I can replace my obsessions in the main because Thalia, but the attention and long-term value might be good for my build, too.
I play almost WU Spirits exclusively on MTGO in competitive leagues so your facing a lot of the top decks. What are peoples thoughts on how to sideboard vs. Phoenix builds?
I've been following Gerry Thompson and using 4 Auriok Champion in the SB. It's so good vs. Dredge, Burn, Hollow One, and Death Shadow that going with the full four just makes sense. It totally swings those match-ups in our favor. However, you end up having to warp your SB a bit.
I've also been fiddling a lot with the flex slots of which there are five in my view. Three two drop slots, two three drop slots. One one drop slot if you want to shave a fourth path.
I've tried Thalia, but damn she dies to gut shot easily. Currently I've been trying three copies of Spirit of the Labyrinth. With that card is good, it is bonkers. Its better vs. Control in my view than Thalia. But like Thalia it is vulnerable. Of course its also a spirit and so its easier to protect. The other option is to go with a split between your Selfless Spirit, Thalia/Labyrinth, and then Remorseful Cleric. Maybe a 3-2-2 split. I've literally been fiddling with the two drop flex spot for two years, and can't seem to find what works best in the current meta.
At the three drop slot I'd like to try Dovin again. Tried a couple when it first came out but went away. I keep going back to Nebelghast Herald and Kirra as my 9-10 three drops.
Would love to here from people how they SB vs. Izzet Phoenix. I'm bringing in a Worship and two copies of Damping Sphere. Also would like to know if anyone has tried going all in on the Aurioks.
The reason is that you can't realistically counter looting or cantrips, best case scenario you trade for an early morphose. It's hard to even trade with a bolt because they always get to play the number of lands they need to safely cast their stuff. The longer the game goes, the worse wanderer gets to be, it's an horrible top deck because it races poorly and it doesn't even trade with a phoenix by its own.
Spirit of labyrinth is fine against looting, but as much as I love playing just spirts in this deck, I think thalia offers a better tax plan against the field, especially now hollow one is gone and so is pyromancer.
Damping sphere is good when deployed early but I ended up leaving it in the side, I value rest in peace way more because it shuts the flashback of looting which is incredibly good in the mid game. That flashback allows them to cycle lands and flip a thing in the ice which would take turns to do so otherwise. Also getting rid of Phoenix permanently is pretty good. I ve read many plans and I don't see RiP that often and I'm surprised. I find it very relevant even in esper where I'm loosing half a Lingering souls.
Dovin also works better in esper because of all the tokens you can produce, not that it wouldn't work in UW, because it's true that my esper version plays as a regular UW sprits a lot of times where I don't get to draw souls, but it's overall better positioned in such a version with higher removal count and souls. I feel like it's a flexible mb card, sideboard needs silver bullets. This is how I intend it.
Testing in competitive leagues is the only reliable source of informations by the way: you won't get to play against that density of top tier decks and good pilots at any local event nor in any friendly league, so keep it up.
When I first joined MTGO I was playing pure budget WU, then I added Souls and loved it. I went away when I was having lots of success in competative with WU - before the rise of Phoenix and the new shift in the meta - but maybe now I should reconsider it. Souls would buy you a ton of time vs. the top decks for sure.
Thanks for your thoughts on the SB plan. Have you tried Auriok Champion? Man that card is good vs some of the best decks. I've liked the four of. My greatest weakness as a player, and I'm sure I'm not alone here, is with side boarding, both in building the SB and in making decisions about what to bring in. I find that I win a lot of game ones with Spirits, even against the top decks, and you would think that once we go to SB I would be favored because of how good white is, but that's not how it plays out. I believe I over side board and take my deck away from what it does best: Disrupt and get hexproof locks in the air.
I think the reason people shy away from Rest in Peace is because Phoenix has so many ways to attack you, and they see so many cards that cutting them off of flashback looting and phoenix recursion isn't the end of the world. The card that beats us in my view is Thing in the Ice. I also like to be able to moorland haunt to buy time. Cage might be a consideration but they pack some number of Abrade's. Because I'm running four Auriok I've gone away from Cage in the SB - with two RIP I don't want to be devoting anymore than 6 cards to dredge.
What I would love is for some number of WU/WUB spirits players to collaborate to build a SB and SB plan for folks. I'm pretty confident in my ability to pilot the deck - playing basically every day for two plus years will do that - but figuring out the flex slots and the SB + plan is much more challenging in the ever changing meta of modern.
- 2 CoCo, - 2 Phantasmal Image (Gut Shot ew), - 1 Selfless Spirit.
+2 Rest In Peace, +2 Thalia, +1 Dromoka's Command (Can fight TiTi, dodge bolt/anger).
EDH: Xenagos, God of Revels.
Presumably, the poster is talking about this list by Yohaan Mangani, who took 2nd place at an open, and another list by Mattew Nelson, who made top 8 at the NRG Championship Trial. MTG Top 8 has a number of other UW Spirits lists as well that did well in tournaments using 21 lands.
Going down to 18 is INSANE. I have no idea but I feel like they got lucky with their draws
Agreed. Vial performs admirably as land slots 21-24, but they're like bouncelands in that they guarantee you the ability to play 3 drops while being a tempo loss when played late that risks turning your game plan into a Jenga tower. I don't want to put additional strain on my vials, especially since both lists above use their former land slots to run additional 3 drops.
I was particularly surprised to see both lists keep three colorless mana sources. I could see pushing it with 19, but 18 over 12 rounds seems very risky. Perhaps with the London Mulligan we will see something like this become more reasonable?
You play UW, right? Take out both Phantasmal Images. Sure, the ceiling is double drogskols, but the floor is crap. Image has a lot to gain from instant timing, but, without Coco, your only recourse is Aether Vial, which you will want to have at 3 in many cases. Image is also nearly impossible to protect without already having a drogskol, and it's downright lousy against phoenix.
I play 20 lands where 3x of them are Mutavaults