The fact that we're even discussing a colourless wishboard is just amazing haha.
Also just in case anyone was thinking about it, karn wrecks the mirror match and occasionally the Stony silence effect neuters a deck without needing to wish for anything.
Oh and (a trick from playing Sydri, galvanic genius in commander) you can animate opposing artifacts and then kill them with creature removal. Why is this relevant? Well..... I guess one of your wish targets could be liquimetal coating and you could use it like a rishadan port with karn's static ability, or destroy lands entirely with karn's +1 (which is a pretty good rate and seems viable), switch off planeswalkers for a turn, negate any permanent with an activated ability, or just kill them outright with creature removal by using karn's +1. Seems pretty versatile as an option actually.
But you're talking of a different deck here... If you go this route, you have to admit it's a very slow kill, that requires building around this interaction, and locking most of opponent's pressure, the time you get rid of his/her lands. This is for Whir Prison for example (and even Whir isn't the right shell for this), not for Tron...
I believe this Karn isn't for Tron unfortunately. Usually by turn 3, when we reach tron, we are quite often behind the clock, we want to empty the board and start deploying our stuff. This Karn does none of these.
Then the Lattice combo, well if a single creature is there -which is likely to be the case if you don't clean the board and play this Karn instead-, the combo doesn't work anymore. You ends up with Lattice in play, doing nothing useful.
Get rid of artifact lands against Affinity? It's cute when you're behind the clock, under pressure, to spend your mana and your turn killing lands rather than the 2/3 key artifacts pressuring you...
I was on the hipe for Planar Bridge, because I was thinking it could fill the role of Eye of Ugin, and even why not going 5 color PL with it, but I was wrong, the single turn lost cost me more games than the benefit of having constant threat after turn 4. This Karn looks exactly in the same spot.
Now the new Ugin, looks better already, but 1/2 of would be the maximum I guess, as the +1 isn't strong enough compare to what we have already. I rather prefer a Wurmcoil, which for me looks far better than this Ugin for 6 cmc slot. So i'm not sure it will fit...
And Blast Zone for me is the only real deal for Tron, as 1 of max, could help late game to transform tutor to usefull game plan... Atm we don't have much target for the late game, Sanctum of Ugin and Ghost Quarter are the only pieces of toolbox we have to recycle those tutors, this could fit in pretty well I guess.
I was initially lukewarm but hopeful about Karn, the Great Creator, but after testing him against a variety of decks, I'm completely sold on him and bumped him up to a full maindeck playset.
Turn 3 Karn GC always helps you claw back into the game. Whether that's by searching for a high-impact hate rock that you can play this turn (graveyard hate, Grafdigger's Cage), pushing an Oblivion Stone into your hand, or even something as lowly as gumming up the board with a freshly wished-for 1/1 Walking Ballista, Karn GC WILL find a way.
Turn 4+ Karn GC is where things start getting unreal. The Ballista gets fatter. You can now wish for and play 4-mana hate rocks the turn you stick Karn GC. This notably includes Witchbane Orb. He still pushes O. Stone into your hand if you only drew Karn GC on Turn 4. And if your Turn 3 Karn GC survived a turn, the Mycosynth Lattice lock becomes a real possibility as long as they cannot injure Karn GC. (I've found that going for the Mycosynth lock is generally worth it as long as they have 4 or fewer instant-speed answers to 3-loyalty Karn GC in the deck and they cannot reliably deal with Karn GC within 2 turns after getting locked out of mana. You'd be surprised how often they just don't have the answer.)
Later Karn GC is obviously insane, with the very real ability of sticking Mycosynth, O. Stone, grossly fat Ballista, and any hate rock you want the turn you play Karn GC. Karn GC on 10 mana is this close to being Newlamog. Like Newlamog, he can effectively destroy any permanents you want.
Yes, getting delayed O. Stone and chump Ballista is indeed fast enough against today's aggro decks. Yes, the Turn 4 Mycosynth lock does hammer in combo often enough (without basically playing sideboard cards maindeck), especially backed by Turn 3 disruption. Yes, I am willing to completely sacrifice 4 sideboard slots and partially sacrifice 1-3 more to raise my pre-board win percentage against the field this much. Yes, Karn GC IS good enough against the entire meta. Yes, I always want to see Karn GC. No, I don't want to board him out.
And the flexibility of wishing for cheap stuff when you're strapped for mana never hurts.
But yes, if you have opposing creatures with combined 1 or more power breathing down your neck and you have any haymaker besides Karn GC in hand, play the other haymaker first. Make them lose more creatures to that haymaker before you stick Karn GC and prevent them from recovering.
...Unless the hate rock Karn GC can find is so good that it's worth losing Karn GC and several life points for it. Turns out it might.
I tested against Dredge and RG Valakut last night for a bunch of pre-board games. Karn GC was dang good glue against both decks. Yes, this is despite the Mycosynth lock sucking so much against both decks that it's not worth going for.
Against Dredge, Karn GC wished for Relic of Progenitus and Ballista the most often. He wasn't a complete nuke like he is against most other decks, but he consistently helped me claw back into the game.
Against RG Valakut, Karn GC wished for Witchbane Orb the most often, followed by stuff like Ballista and Spellskite. Yes, Witchbane Orb was often worth it instead of O. Stone--I got killed too many times the turn after I blew up O. Stone, and Witchbane Orb slows their damage rate significantly and prevents Scapeshift from OHKOing me regardless of whether Karn GC is on the battlefield. It was surprisingly tough to catch RG Valakut without Valakut or with 5 or fewer lands, but every time I did and the board was clear, I wished for Mycosynth instead and blew up their Mountains and Valakuts every turn after that. RG Valakut kept immediately killing my stuff with land drops even after I stuck Witchbane Orb (this included using Scapeshift to destroy creatures and walkers), so after Witchbane Orb, prioritize blowing up all their Valakuts and Primeval Titans instead of playing a 2nd Karn GC. This is one of those match-ups where I kept wishing the first Karn GC would show up--Ugin 1.0 is subpar, Wurmcoil also doesn't gain life fast enough or stay a blocker for long enough, and Ballista either kills only chumps or is an inefficient way to kill Prime Time.
An additional tip: in general, once you stick the Mycosynth combo while their board is clear, clock them by animating Mycosynth with Karn GC's +1 instead of twiddling your thumbs blowing up their permanents that don't have triggered abilities. Heck, wishing for anything besides Ballista or some oddball protective stuff may be too slow compared to clocking them with a 6/6 Mycosynth. I once stuck the Mycosynth lock against UR Phoenix when I was at 1 life, so I needed to kill UR Phoenix ASAP or they could still Gut Shot me to death. (OK, Witchbane Orb should be my next wish target against that line of attack, but they can still theoretically line up 3 free spells and reanimate Arclight Phoenix. Karn GC cannot wish for stuff 3 turns in a row without +1-ing, though, so clock them while he's recharging.) Unless you truly fear Slaughter Pact (or just wish for Spellskite before animating Mycosynth in that case), develop the muscle memory to outrace every opponent who refuses to concede.
I'd better kick a Thought-Knot Seer for a Grafdigger's Cage in the board. I predict an influx in new combo decks that Cage is the strongest hate rock against (Allosaurus Rider-into-Griselbrand combo, Bolas's Citadel combo--note that both decks are easily immune to regular graveyard hate, both can resist Burn's Eidolon of the Great Revel, and Allosaurus can win on Turn 2 somewhat consistently and can theoretically win through the Mycosynth lock). Yes, I want to board Cage in against them.
Blast Zone is great, though. It's a 1-of staple, IMO. Gotta give your walkers their breathing room with a nonland permanent destruction card your land tutors can find.
I also agree that I prefer Wurmcoil--heck, even Ugin, the Spirit Dragon--over Ugin, the Ineffable. Ugin 2.0 simply doesn't do enough for his 6 mana, especially since he cannot exile, board wipe, or hit lands, and Wurmcoil can gain enough life to race evasive aggro decks like UR Phoenix and Affinity.
A minor side note: If your opponent does manage to off KCG while you have Lattice on the board, Nature's Claim is a one mana instant Vindicate.
If KGC ends up sticking, and you face it in the mirror, you can tap for colorless if you have no green sources in response to a Lattice casting. Once it lands, you can spend that mana to Claim it away.
A minor side note: If your opponent does manage to off KCG while you have Lattice on the board, Nature's Claim is a one mana instant Vindicate.
If KGC ends up sticking, and you face it in the mirror, you can tap for colorless if you have no green sources in response to a Lattice casting. Once it lands, you can spend that mana to Claim it away.
If KGC becomes a mainstay, you can actually Claim their Karn and lock them under their own Lattice if you have a Karn of your own.
A minor side note: If your opponent does manage to off KCG while you have Lattice on the board, Nature's Claim is a one mana instant Vindicate.
If KGC ends up sticking, and you face it in the mirror, you can tap for colorless if you have no green sources in response to a Lattice casting. Once it lands, you can spend that mana to Claim it away.
If KGC becomes a mainstay, you can actually Claim their Karn and lock them under their own Lattice if you have a Karn of your own.
Good call! It's nice that Lattice still has some decent utility even if you don't have Karn to lock up their options thanks primarily to Claim. Keeping Lattice on the board while denying opposing Karns should definitely be the priority though.
KGC at the very least seems to be getting everyone to consider new and refreshing lines of play (and counter-play). I'm still skeptical, but I haven't tested with it either. Usually cards like this end up as bait (Conduit of Ruin, Planar Bridge), but this Karn seems like the best version of this sort of effect. I'll pick some of them up along with a Lattice and a Blast Zone to play around with once the set formally drops.
In fact, I'm really thinking that the best line of play if you have an artifact-killing instant in hand vs. the imminent Mycosynth lock is to always float mana in response, then wait until Mycosynth Lattice resolves, then cast your instant and kill Karn, the Great Creator. Now they cannot tutor for more answers/threats with Karn GC, and they now have a 6-mana liability on the battlefield that partially hoses their own Ugin, the Spirit Dragon. (OK, fine, they can now get Ancient Stirrings, Sylvan Scrying, and other previously green cards with Stirrings. But hey, they fixed your mana for you!) Of course, their next Karn GC sets up the lock again, but if you bean Mycosynth instead, they can always opt to Relic of Progenitus it back to wishable range again.
...Now there's a fair chance that the wishboard Spellskite count goes up, especially since Turn 3 Karn GC often has nothing better to do in the mirror. Spellskite redirects Karn Liberated's -3 to boot.
I also suppose that one benefit of the Gx Tron shell for Karn GC is that your opponent is highly incentivized to Assassin's Trophy your Tron lands instead of your Karn GC.
(Another Karn GC general play tip: never wish for Mycosynth if you cannot cast it this turn. Test whether Karn GC survives first.)
Hi guys, looking for suggestions on a good sideboard guide for most of the tier 1 decks currently out there right now and what do you guys think of the list and sideboard guide by Jim Davis posted at coolstuffinc? or maybe anyone has a link for sicsmoo's updated guide if there is a new one? I've been going back and forth from G-Tron and RG/Bant/Tron Eldrazi decks for years now and i simply want to focus on G-Tron right now and get a refresher. My last 5 weeks of play was pretty bad starting from 2-3, 2-2-1, 2-3, 2-2-1 and 2-3 respectively each week. I feel i need to review some stuff again as the articles i've focused on reading before was from the time of RG, BG and GW Tron. Thanks in advance mates.
Hi guys, looking for suggestions on a good sideboard guide for most of the tier 1 decks currently out there right now and what do you guys think of the list and sideboard guide by Jim Davis posted at coolstuffinc? or maybe anyone has a link for sicsmoo's updated guide if there is a new one? I've been going back and forth from G-Tron and RG/Bant/Tron Eldrazi decks for years now and i simply want to focus on G-Tron right now and get a refresher. My last 5 weeks of play was pretty bad starting from 2-3, 2-2-1, 2-3, 2-2-1 and 2-3 respectively each week. I feel i need to review some stuff again as the articles i've focused on reading before was from the time of RG, BG and GW Tron. Thanks in advance mates.
sicsmoo's current SB guide is in the primer on the front page (under the Matchup and Sideboard Guide section). I think Davis does a pretty good job in his articles; he's played Tron pretty consistently for a while now, so I think he has generally good insight. As for doing better with the deck, the biggest and most common piece of general advice is to mulligan aggressively.
I also agree that I prefer Wurmcoil--heck, even Ugin, the Spirit Dragon--over Ugin, the Ineffable. Ugin 2.0 simply doesn't do enough for his 6 mana, especially since he cannot exile, board wipe, or hit lands, and Wurmcoil can gain enough life to race evasive aggro decks like UR Phoenix and Affinity.
Ugin 2.0 seems like he might be good in a sideboard or a different meta because he'd be great in a slow grind. Modern is not in for any kind of grind right now. I'm not sure if there's enough Control decks to even justify testing it at the moment, but that's where to see if he's any good.
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I repeat what I said before. people are looking at Karn wrong. Coating, Lattice, anything that requires Karn stay in play is wrong, because it will get killed. you play it for sideboard cards that are what you want regardless of what happens to Karn. we are not looking for a combo that wins the game if Karn lives. do you know our combo that wins the game? big ass creature + time. the entire point of our sideboard is to buy our big ass creature more time. siding in 2-4 cards that if we draw them at the right time will buy us more turns is what we have to work with, but it's not 'good'. with this, we are running 4 copies of a card that can wipe out whatever we need to kill, we run them mainboard, and they aren't dead draws. I'm sure the cute little combo ideas will become casual staples, I bet EDH sees a lot of them, but that doesn't give you Day 2 at a GP.
getting Grafdiggers Cage against Storm or Dredge game 1, getting Pithing Needle and naming Teferi, siding out O-Stone and only getting it when you are happy to see it, that is the stuff that puts you in Day 2. the point of new Karn is not to win you the game directly. maybe the plus can do it sometimes, that would be neat, but even Karn Liberated doesn't directly win you the game unless you count them conceding, or restarting the game. the point of new Karn is to be better able to slow them down, because you all know, if the game goes long, we are REALLY hard to beat. let the kitchen table players do the Lattice combo and hope Karn doesn't get nuked. I will be over here winning with the same win conditions as ever, and using Karn to keep me alive.
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I definitely agree with the sentiment that KGC shouldn't sway anyone into playing cards like Liquidmetal Coating, and that the real value is on immediate impact cards that you can cast the same turn you grab them. Mycosynth Lattice is powerful enough when backed with multiple copies of KGC to warrant, though. There's no need to grab it first, but anytime an opponent doesn't have an answer, they risk getting locked out.
Bonus points that Lattice slightly helps our Stirrings (in casting it or finding anything in the deck...like the next card), and greatly helps any copies of Nature's Claim become powerhouses. Hitting another KGC turns off their mana and allows us to immediately plus on the Lattice to attack (or block) for six as well. I do think that the players gunning to lock opponents with the Karn/Lattice combo without paying enough attention will get wrecked, but I disagree that this is a kitchen table combo.
The way I see it, KGC is just another consistency tool to add to the deck; we shouldn't be cutting any copies of Karn Liberated for them. The fact that the new Karn can set up to stall so well with turn three Tron is great, and the fact that it's only four mana means it's more playable in the face of many common hate cards. Toolboxing, recurring (thanks to Relic), and multiple ways to lock opponents out of the game? This thing has a solid floor, and a very high ceiling.
Bonus points for incidental hate against Chalice, Ad Nauseam (thanks to Pentad Prism and Lotus Bloom), and of course any artifact-heavy deck. Maybe 8-Karn will catch on, haha.
EDIT: I think the new Karn is good enough against control decks together with what we already play that New Ugin (Newgin?) isn't even worth considering. It's a cool card with some nice abilities, but I don't think Gx Tron will make the most of them.
I repeat what I said before. people are looking at Karn wrong. Coating, Lattice, anything that requires Karn stay in play is wrong, because it will get killed. you play it for sideboard cards that are what you want regardless of what happens to Karn. we are not looking for a combo that wins the game if Karn lives. do you know our combo that wins the game? big ass creature + time. the entire point of our sideboard is to buy our big ass creature more time. siding in 2-4 cards that if we draw them at the right time will buy us more turns is what we have to work with, but it's not 'good'. with this, we are running 4 copies of a card that can wipe out whatever we need to kill, we run them mainboard, and they aren't dead draws. I'm sure the cute little combo ideas will become casual staples, I bet EDH sees a lot of them, but that doesn't give you Day 2 at a GP.
getting Grafdiggers Cage against Storm or Dredge game 1, getting Pithing Needle and naming Teferi, siding out O-Stone and only getting it when you are happy to see it, that is the stuff that puts you in Day 2. the point of new Karn is not to win you the game directly. maybe the plus can do it sometimes, that would be neat, but even Karn Liberated doesn't directly win you the game unless you count them conceding, or restarting the game. the point of new Karn is to be better able to slow them down, because you all know, if the game goes long, we are REALLY hard to beat. let the kitchen table players do the Lattice combo and hope Karn doesn't get nuked. I will be over here winning with the same win conditions as ever, and using Karn to keep me alive.
I disagree with your statement that the Mycosynth Lattice lock with Karn, the Great Creator is not worth it: given Karn GC's tendency to be a 4-mana tutor that soaks up part of an aggro swing otherwise, it is THE reason to play Karn GC. Luckily, 1 Mycosynth takes up barely any space in the board, and from my testing, the Mycosynth lock is surprisingly not win-more against most decks that can build up a board presence. In fact, Mycosynth may be Karn GC's best defence against manlands. Against devoted combo, of course, the Mycosynth lock is often the fastest way to make them lose the game.
Karn GC's ability to wish for smaller rocks definitely helps, though. However, in quite a lot of match-ups, the best wish targets are spare copies of cards we already maindeck (Oblivion Stone, Walking Ballista). (Karn GC is the best card in the deck in Game 1 if the sideboard rock is that much of a butt saver, though.) If I'm stuck playing Karn GC early or I need to pop Karn GC for an O. Stone, that lone, used Karn GC does help me stabilize long enough that I win with other haymakers.
Karn GC can both slow them down AND win the game directly. Squint hard enough at Karn GC and he IS a big ass creature, especially if you put a Wurmcoil Engine in the sideboard (or their deck is that Ballista-weak, or they finally crumble to the Mycosynth lock).
I agree that nothing else that requires Karn GC is worth running, though (e.g. Liquimetal Coating), but that's mainly because we cannot afford to consume half our sideboard with wishboard slots. Too many decks either win against us too quickly or go hard on breaking up the Tron and our ability to get it. We need every sideboard slot we can get to handle those decks. Against the decks that win so quickly that only Turn 1-2 answers will save us, we need hate cards like graveyard hate and Grafdigger's Cage. Against the decks that greatly slow us down and break up the Tron, we need a high enough density of midrange cards like Thought-Knot Seer and Thragtusk as well as ways to boot Stony Silence fast (e.g. Nature's Claim). It doesn't help that compact Karn GC wishboards are weak to Stony Silence. Karn GC needs a wishboard to succeed, but we need that wishboard to be as small as possible, so every card in it must be an absolute life-saver or get boarded in at some point. O. Stone, Ballista, Mycosynth, and Witchbane Orb have all been absolute life-savers for me, and those are the only permanent residents of my wishboard.
I agree with Thenarus that we cannot afford to cut any copies of Karn Liberated for Karn GC, though: Karn L similarly does his best to shore up the otherwise unfavourable combo match-ups by booting lands and forcing quasi-discard, he's completely mean in the mirror (play him over Karn GC in the mirror), and he still snipes things and soaks up attacks against aggro. And that's all for the low price of one Tron set with no other lands.
Karn GC's main feature in control match-ups is that, due to their inability to pressure him, he often represents 2 artifacts and the ability to get more. That's enough reason to eat a counterspell.
In the meantime, the Sanctum of Ugin in my deck got noticeably worse after sticking Karn GC in my deck, but I've found I don't care: Karn GC is quite good at helping me stabilize, and once the coast is clear for the Mycosynth lock, I don't need to win with anything else.
Your test list is almost identical to mine in the main, except for two things. I added a fourth KGC and cut the fourth O-Stone out entirely (2 main, 1 SB). To compensate, I cut the fifth Forest for a copy of Blast Zone. I really like the additional copies of Forest and O-Stone though, so if three copies of KGC feels like enough, this is where I'll end up as well, with the single Blast Zone in the side. BZ as a tutorable sweeper that can recur with Crucible and hit Stony Silence seems too good to pass up.
The real experiment is of course the sideboard. Mine is similar to yours, but I have three Thragtusks and no Surgicals, with a single Spellskite to act as a lightning rod and defense instead of the fourth Claim. Claim does get a solid boost from the Lattice, though. Spyglass is much better than Pithing Needle for this build since you can see if the way is clear for a Lattice as well, so I like it in your build.
EDIT: Missed the Field of Ruin in the main; most people run Ghost Quarter there, myself included.
I think that Blast Zone is extremely powerful, and most lists should be making room for it. Of the top decks, it immediately (X=1) presents a huge problem for GDS, Scales, Affinity, Mono-Red Phoenix, Infect, Spirits, Hollowed One, Bogles, and Humans. That's really huge for a card that we have 8 ways of searching up, and smooths out our clunky "no payoff" hands. Against decks other than the ones I listed, it quickly charges up to become a threat against as well, while also dodging counters, hand disruption, and taxing effects. I honestly think that it's a better "utility" land than Sanctum, as it's a lot easier to use both quickly and effectively. I'm also not sure how much I like Field; I get that Crucible+Field is a lot stronger than Crucible+GQ (since we have access to MD Crucible via Karn), but GQ is really important for making sure we don't die in the first 2 or 3 turns against Infect, Affinity, and the mirror. It's also worth pointing out that the MUs that Crucible+Field is good against (grindy decks) are decks that both run a lot of basics and really pressure our basic count (UW Control and BG Midrange). To run Sanctum + Zone + LD land we're also down to 4 Forests, which makes running Fields of our own kind of greedy. Finally, if KGC becomes a mainstay and our threat density is naturally higher, I could even see eventually shaving the Sanctum for a 2nd copy of Zone. I get that Sanctum is good for increasing threat density vs Control and Midrange decks, but Blast Zone destroys a nonland permanent of our choice in those MUs if it survives for a turn, without needing a 2nd threat to trigger it. It can be a little soft if they have the Field/Trophy, but we're already pressuring those cards via the rest of our manabase and our threat suite. It also dodges hand disruption and counters.
I also agree with Lectrys's sentiment of not going "all-in" on KGC's wishboard. Even if KGC is good enough to see play, I think that it needs to be taken in perspective, and I think that abandoning the postboard Thragtusk/TKS/Claim plan is a mistake (4-6 slots is also "plenty" of space for a toolbox). I also agree that Mycosynth Lattice is very much a necessity when playing with KGC though, as it allows Karn to function as a win condition, which is really important. The only other really strong proactive card that KGC can grab is Ballista, and Ballista can be underwhelming in certain matchups, and is weak to traditional removal spells. While I agree that Karn many times will be a stabilizing agent against aggressive strategies, I think that you need the capability of being a proactive threat against decks that really attack our threat density (Control, Midrange). We've been bleeding MU% against these decks after Field and Trophy, and KGC needs to be able to be a threat that these decks need to answer immediately.
Bond of Flourishing has been OK. It seems to be better in match-ups that keep disrupting our lands (e.g. the Rock). Digging 3 is surprisingly disappointing, and the life bump has been a bit hard to notice, but it does have pros over running more Relics (e.g. not as weak to Stony Silence, not weak to Chalice of the Void on X = 1).
Spellskite has proven surprisingly useful as a wishboard target: it's a wall at worst, and it's quite good at protecting the Mycosynth lock from removal. It's often my first wish target with Karn GC whenever I cannot cast Mycosynth that turn but the board is clear. I suppose the days of boarding this guy in are rare, though (Bogles, Infect).
Yes, I anticipate boarding in one graveyard hate rock in match-ups where nuking the yard is important.
Witchbane Orb still feels like a meta slot, but since it's useful against Burn and great against RG Valakut, I believe it's a worthwhile meta slot in an open meta. If your meta is more inbred, I suppose there's stuff like Perilous Vault (for UR Phoenix, Spirits, Hollow One, Hardened Scales, etc.), Culling Scales (may be a way to boot Stony Silence for cheap, definitely a way to mass boot Whir Prison's stuff), and Meteor Golem (an expensive way to boot Stony Silence).
Karn GC still feels like Newlamog But Much Cheaper. It makes sense to boot World Breaker for him if you're looking for room for him, and I still haven't regretted going down to one 10-cmc Eldrazi.
One thing to note is that in corner cases Karn, the Great Creator animating cantrip artifacts can be useful in making 1/1 chumpers. Chromatic Star can trade with x/1's and Chromatic Sphere, Relic of Progenitus, and Expedition Map can chump block then sac so long they don't have sickness.
Also, I like the idea of Bond of Flourishing, but the tepid follow up to it makes me a little hesitant to try it out for myself.
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Alright, I wasn't planning on testing Great Creator after my initial assessment of the card but community interest has been so strong that I thought I should give it a spin to be sure.
I played this list for 2 leagues - 8 card wishboard which is all I could justify without cutting into essential sideboard cards too much. It felt fine. Some matchups felt better, but more felt worse. I'm gonna go through the top 10 decks in the format and look at how the matchups change with this configuration.
Dredge first of all gets significantly worse because you're shaving grave-hate cards overall and mostly relying on Great Creator to tutor one up, on turn 3 at the earliest. This is not going to be good enough most of the time.
Grixis Shadow - the Great Creators looked pretty silly here, especially when I had to cut my 2nd and 3rd Dismembers, 3rd Relic and 3rd and 4th Thragtusks to make room for the package.
Phoenix - losing grave-hate and Dismembers, gaining...?
Amulet - worse because you shave TKS and cut Surgicals.
UWx and BGx - I think you improve a bit against UW but not much against BGx because they can pressure him so easily, compared to the 3rd and 4th Thragtusks which impact the board immediately and in a big way.
Burn - probably a minor improvement because fetching up something like Witchbane Orb game 1 is great, but you also might just die first/anyway, plus again, cutting Thragtusks hurts.
Humans - maybe a minor improvement because you effectively have 6 O-Stones, but this matchup is already great.
There are only 2 matchups where I would say Great Creator offers a significant improvement - the Tron mirror and Hardened Scales. Not coincidentally, these are the only 2 matchups where GC's static ability matters on its own. In the mirror, it becomes our second best turn-3 Tron play after Karn Liberated with the ability to fetch a Spyglass to shut off their potential Karn Liberated, and obviously why the static ability is good requires no explanation.
For Scales, again, 1-sided Stony Silence is strong, especially when you consider it shuts down their Darksteel Citadels as well, but it can be slow and they can still just attack and kill Karn.
I will mention decks like Titan Shift, Boggles, and Infect - yeah, getting Witchbane or Spellskite game 1 against these decks is great, but they're also each less than 2% of the metagame.
Now of course, this anaylsis is just based on the list I posted, and certainly you could play different cards and improve a particular matchup - having access to Torpor Orb against Amulet for example. But then you have to cut something and lose that edge in a different matchup.
People may suggest playing fewer copies of Great Creator. I'm skeptical about this as well because as you decrease his numbers, obviously you're less likely to draw him and so that makes it even harder to justify having all those narrow 1-ofs in your sideboard.
A note on Mycosynth Lattice - our deck does not need this card. It's a fun alternate win-con (that I actually found pretty hard to protect), but we already have plenty of things to end the game with that don't require putting 2 pieces together.
So in summary, I think Karn, the Great Creator is a very interesting card, a very versatile card and a very fun card. But does it improve Mono Green Tron against the field? I'm standing by my initial assessment with an emphatic no.
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I was initially lukewarm but hopeful about Karn, the Great Creator, but after testing him against a variety of decks, I'm completely sold on him and bumped him up to a full maindeck playset.
Turn 3 Karn GC always helps you claw back into the game. Whether that's by searching for a high-impact hate rock that you can play this turn (graveyard hate, Grafdigger's Cage), pushing an Oblivion Stone into your hand, or even something as lowly as gumming up the board with a freshly wished-for 1/1 Walking Ballista, Karn GC WILL find a way.
Turn 4+ Karn GC is where things start getting unreal. The Ballista gets fatter. You can now wish for and play 4-mana hate rocks the turn you stick Karn GC. This notably includes Witchbane Orb. He still pushes O. Stone into your hand if you only drew Karn GC on Turn 4. And if your Turn 3 Karn GC survived a turn, the Mycosynth Lattice lock becomes a real possibility as long as they cannot injure Karn GC. (I've found that going for the Mycosynth lock is generally worth it as long as they have 4 or fewer instant-speed answers to 3-loyalty Karn GC in the deck and they cannot reliably deal with Karn GC within 2 turns after getting locked out of mana. You'd be surprised how often they just don't have the answer.)
Later Karn GC is obviously insane, with the very real ability of sticking Mycosynth, O. Stone, grossly fat Ballista, and any hate rock you want the turn you play Karn GC. Karn GC on 10 mana is this close to being Newlamog. Like Newlamog, he can effectively destroy any permanents you want.
Yes, getting delayed O. Stone and chump Ballista is indeed fast enough against today's aggro decks. Yes, the Turn 4 Mycosynth lock does hammer in combo often enough (without basically playing sideboard cards maindeck), especially backed by Turn 3 disruption. Yes, I am willing to completely sacrifice 4 sideboard slots and partially sacrifice 1-3 more to raise my pre-board win percentage against the field this much. Yes, Karn GC IS good enough against the entire meta. Yes, I always want to see Karn GC. No, I don't want to board him out.
And the flexibility of wishing for cheap stuff when you're strapped for mana never hurts.
But yes, if you have opposing creatures with combined 1 or more power breathing down your neck and you have any haymaker besides Karn GC in hand, play the other haymaker first. Make them lose more creatures to that haymaker before you stick Karn GC and prevent them from recovering.
...Unless the hate rock Karn GC can find is so good that it's worth losing Karn GC and several life points for it. Turns out it might.
I tested against Dredge and RG Valakut last night for a bunch of pre-board games. Karn GC was dang good glue against both decks. Yes, this is despite the Mycosynth lock sucking so much against both decks that it's not worth going for.
Against Dredge, Karn GC wished for Relic of Progenitus and Ballista the most often. He wasn't a complete nuke like he is against most other decks, but he consistently helped me claw back into the game.
Against RG Valakut, Karn GC wished for Witchbane Orb the most often, followed by stuff like Ballista and Spellskite. Yes, Witchbane Orb was often worth it instead of O. Stone--I got killed too many times the turn after I blew up O. Stone, and Witchbane Orb slows their damage rate significantly and prevents Scapeshift from OHKOing me regardless of whether Karn GC is on the battlefield. It was surprisingly tough to catch RG Valakut without Valakut or with 5 or fewer lands, but every time I did and the board was clear, I wished for Mycosynth instead and blew up their Mountains and Valakuts every turn after that. RG Valakut kept immediately killing my stuff with land drops even after I stuck Witchbane Orb (this included using Scapeshift to destroy creatures and walkers), so after Witchbane Orb, prioritize blowing up all their Valakuts and Primeval Titans instead of playing a 2nd Karn GC. This is one of those match-ups where I kept wishing the first Karn GC would show up--Ugin 1.0 is subpar, Wurmcoil also doesn't gain life fast enough or stay a blocker for long enough, and Ballista either kills only chumps or is an inefficient way to kill Prime Time.
An additional tip: in general, once you stick the Mycosynth combo while their board is clear, clock them by animating Mycosynth with Karn GC's +1 instead of twiddling your thumbs blowing up their permanents that don't have triggered abilities. Heck, wishing for anything besides Ballista or some oddball protective stuff may be too slow compared to clocking them with a 6/6 Mycosynth. I once stuck the Mycosynth lock against UR Phoenix when I was at 1 life, so I needed to kill UR Phoenix ASAP or they could still Gut Shot me to death. (OK, Witchbane Orb should be my next wish target against that line of attack, but they can still theoretically line up 3 free spells and reanimate Arclight Phoenix. Karn GC cannot wish for stuff 3 turns in a row without +1-ing, though, so clock them while he's recharging.) Unless you truly fear Slaughter Pact (or just wish for Spellskite before animating Mycosynth in that case), develop the muscle memory to outrace every opponent who refuses to concede.
I'd better kick a Thought-Knot Seer for a Grafdigger's Cage in the board. I predict an influx in new combo decks that Cage is the strongest hate rock against (Allosaurus Rider-into-Griselbrand combo, Bolas's Citadel combo--note that both decks are easily immune to regular graveyard hate, both can resist Burn's Eidolon of the Great Revel, and Allosaurus can win on Turn 2 somewhat consistently and can theoretically win through the Mycosynth lock). Yes, I want to board Cage in against them.
Blast Zone is great, though. It's a 1-of staple, IMO. Gotta give your walkers their breathing room with a nonland permanent destruction card your land tutors can find.
I also agree that I prefer Wurmcoil--heck, even Ugin, the Spirit Dragon--over Ugin, the Ineffable. Ugin 2.0 simply doesn't do enough for his 6 mana, especially since he cannot exile, board wipe, or hit lands, and Wurmcoil can gain enough life to race evasive aggro decks like UR Phoenix and Affinity.
If KGC ends up sticking, and you face it in the mirror, you can tap for colorless if you have no green sources in response to a Lattice casting. Once it lands, you can spend that mana to Claim it away.
GX Tron XG
UR Phoenix RU
GG Freyalise High Tide GG
UR Parun Counterspells RU
BB Yawgmoth Token Storm BB
WB Pestilence BW
KGC at the very least seems to be getting everyone to consider new and refreshing lines of play (and counter-play). I'm still skeptical, but I haven't tested with it either. Usually cards like this end up as bait (Conduit of Ruin, Planar Bridge), but this Karn seems like the best version of this sort of effect. I'll pick some of them up along with a Lattice and a Blast Zone to play around with once the set formally drops.
...Now there's a fair chance that the wishboard Spellskite count goes up, especially since Turn 3 Karn GC often has nothing better to do in the mirror. Spellskite redirects Karn Liberated's -3 to boot.
Please be aware that Cindervines and Chord of Calling/Collected Company for Qasali Pridemage/Goblin Cratermaker do not work against the mana lock but are fine threats on the board. On the other hand, Chord/CC for Knight of Autumn/Reclamation Sage does work against the mana lock.
I also suppose that one benefit of the Gx Tron shell for Karn GC is that your opponent is highly incentivized to Assassin's Trophy your Tron lands instead of your Karn GC.
(Another Karn GC general play tip: never wish for Mycosynth if you cannot cast it this turn. Test whether Karn GC survives first.)
GX Tron XG
UR Phoenix RU
GG Freyalise High Tide GG
UR Parun Counterspells RU
BB Yawgmoth Token Storm BB
WB Pestilence BW
right?
=D
GX Tron XG
UR Phoenix RU
GG Freyalise High Tide GG
UR Parun Counterspells RU
BB Yawgmoth Token Storm BB
WB Pestilence BW
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
~~~~~
getting Grafdiggers Cage against Storm or Dredge game 1, getting Pithing Needle and naming Teferi, siding out O-Stone and only getting it when you are happy to see it, that is the stuff that puts you in Day 2. the point of new Karn is not to win you the game directly. maybe the plus can do it sometimes, that would be neat, but even Karn Liberated doesn't directly win you the game unless you count them conceding, or restarting the game. the point of new Karn is to be better able to slow them down, because you all know, if the game goes long, we are REALLY hard to beat. let the kitchen table players do the Lattice combo and hope Karn doesn't get nuked. I will be over here winning with the same win conditions as ever, and using Karn to keep me alive.
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
~~~~~
Bonus points that Lattice slightly helps our Stirrings (in casting it or finding anything in the deck...like the next card), and greatly helps any copies of Nature's Claim become powerhouses. Hitting another KGC turns off their mana and allows us to immediately plus on the Lattice to attack (or block) for six as well. I do think that the players gunning to lock opponents with the Karn/Lattice combo without paying enough attention will get wrecked, but I disagree that this is a kitchen table combo.
The way I see it, KGC is just another consistency tool to add to the deck; we shouldn't be cutting any copies of Karn Liberated for them. The fact that the new Karn can set up to stall so well with turn three Tron is great, and the fact that it's only four mana means it's more playable in the face of many common hate cards. Toolboxing, recurring (thanks to Relic), and multiple ways to lock opponents out of the game? This thing has a solid floor, and a very high ceiling.
Bonus points for incidental hate against Chalice, Ad Nauseam (thanks to Pentad Prism and Lotus Bloom), and of course any artifact-heavy deck. Maybe 8-Karn will catch on, haha.
EDIT: I think the new Karn is good enough against control decks together with what we already play that New Ugin (Newgin?) isn't even worth considering. It's a cool card with some nice abilities, but I don't think Gx Tron will make the most of them.
I disagree with your statement that the Mycosynth Lattice lock with Karn, the Great Creator is not worth it: given Karn GC's tendency to be a 4-mana tutor that soaks up part of an aggro swing otherwise, it is THE reason to play Karn GC. Luckily, 1 Mycosynth takes up barely any space in the board, and from my testing, the Mycosynth lock is surprisingly not win-more against most decks that can build up a board presence. In fact, Mycosynth may be Karn GC's best defence against manlands. Against devoted combo, of course, the Mycosynth lock is often the fastest way to make them lose the game.
Karn GC's ability to wish for smaller rocks definitely helps, though. However, in quite a lot of match-ups, the best wish targets are spare copies of cards we already maindeck (Oblivion Stone, Walking Ballista). (Karn GC is the best card in the deck in Game 1 if the sideboard rock is that much of a butt saver, though.) If I'm stuck playing Karn GC early or I need to pop Karn GC for an O. Stone, that lone, used Karn GC does help me stabilize long enough that I win with other haymakers.
Karn GC can both slow them down AND win the game directly. Squint hard enough at Karn GC and he IS a big ass creature, especially if you put a Wurmcoil Engine in the sideboard (or their deck is that Ballista-weak, or they finally crumble to the Mycosynth lock).
I agree that nothing else that requires Karn GC is worth running, though (e.g. Liquimetal Coating), but that's mainly because we cannot afford to consume half our sideboard with wishboard slots. Too many decks either win against us too quickly or go hard on breaking up the Tron and our ability to get it. We need every sideboard slot we can get to handle those decks. Against the decks that win so quickly that only Turn 1-2 answers will save us, we need hate cards like graveyard hate and Grafdigger's Cage. Against the decks that greatly slow us down and break up the Tron, we need a high enough density of midrange cards like Thought-Knot Seer and Thragtusk as well as ways to boot Stony Silence fast (e.g. Nature's Claim). It doesn't help that compact Karn GC wishboards are weak to Stony Silence. Karn GC needs a wishboard to succeed, but we need that wishboard to be as small as possible, so every card in it must be an absolute life-saver or get boarded in at some point. O. Stone, Ballista, Mycosynth, and Witchbane Orb have all been absolute life-savers for me, and those are the only permanent residents of my wishboard.
I agree with Thenarus that we cannot afford to cut any copies of Karn Liberated for Karn GC, though: Karn L similarly does his best to shore up the otherwise unfavourable combo match-ups by booting lands and forcing quasi-discard, he's completely mean in the mirror (play him over Karn GC in the mirror), and he still snipes things and soaks up attacks against aggro. And that's all for the low price of one Tron set with no other lands.
Karn GC's main feature in control match-ups is that, due to their inability to pressure him, he often represents 2 artifacts and the ability to get more. That's enough reason to eat a counterspell.
In the meantime, the Sanctum of Ugin in my deck got noticeably worse after sticking Karn GC in my deck, but I've found I don't care: Karn GC is quite good at helping me stabilize, and once the coast is clear for the Mycosynth lock, I don't need to win with anything else.
4 Chromatic Sphere
4 Chromatic Star
4 Expedition Map
3 Oblivion Stone
2 Relic of Progenitus
Creature
2 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
3 Wurmcoil Engine
2 Walking Ballista
Land
4 Urza's Mine
4 Urza's Power Plant
4 Urza's Tower
5 Forest
1 Sanctum of Ugin
1 Field of Ruin
4 Karn Liberated
3 Karn, the Great Creator
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
Sorcery
4 Ancient Stirrings
4 Sylvan Scrying
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Oblivion Stone
1 Mycosynth Lattice
1 Sorcerous Spyglass
1 Witchbane Orb
1 Walking Ballista
1 Thragtusk
4 Nature's Claim
2 Surgical Extraction
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
~~~~~
Your test list is almost identical to mine in the main, except for two things. I added a fourth KGC and cut the fourth O-Stone out entirely (2 main, 1 SB). To compensate, I cut the fifth Forest for a copy of Blast Zone. I really like the additional copies of Forest and O-Stone though, so if three copies of KGC feels like enough, this is where I'll end up as well, with the single Blast Zone in the side. BZ as a tutorable sweeper that can recur with Crucible and hit Stony Silence seems too good to pass up.
The real experiment is of course the sideboard. Mine is similar to yours, but I have three Thragtusks and no Surgicals, with a single Spellskite to act as a lightning rod and defense instead of the fourth Claim. Claim does get a solid boost from the Lattice, though. Spyglass is much better than Pithing Needle for this build since you can see if the way is clear for a Lattice as well, so I like it in your build.
EDIT: Missed the Field of Ruin in the main; most people run Ghost Quarter there, myself included.
I also agree with Lectrys's sentiment of not going "all-in" on KGC's wishboard. Even if KGC is good enough to see play, I think that it needs to be taken in perspective, and I think that abandoning the postboard Thragtusk/TKS/Claim plan is a mistake (4-6 slots is also "plenty" of space for a toolbox). I also agree that Mycosynth Lattice is very much a necessity when playing with KGC though, as it allows Karn to function as a win condition, which is really important. The only other really strong proactive card that KGC can grab is Ballista, and Ballista can be underwhelming in certain matchups, and is weak to traditional removal spells. While I agree that Karn many times will be a stabilizing agent against aggressive strategies, I think that you need the capability of being a proactive threat against decks that really attack our threat density (Control, Midrange). We've been bleeding MU% against these decks after Field and Trophy, and KGC needs to be able to be a threat that these decks need to answer immediately.
GX Tron XG
UR Phoenix RU
GG Freyalise High Tide GG
UR Parun Counterspells RU
BB Yawgmoth Token Storm BB
WB Pestilence BW
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Sanctum of Ugin
1 Blast Zone
4 Urza's Mine
4 Urza's Power Plant
4 Urza's Tower
4 Forest
Creatures
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
2 Wurmcoil Engine
2 Walking Ballista
4 Ancient Stirrings
2 Bond of Flourishing
4 Sylvan Scrying
4 Expedition Map
4 Chromatic Sphere
4 Chromatic Star
2 Relic of Progenitus
3 Oblivion Stone
4 Karn Liberated
4 Karn, the Great Creator
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
1 Mycosynth Lattice
1 Oblivion Stone
1 Walking Ballista
1 Witchbane Orb
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Spellskite
2 Thought-Knot Seer
2 Thragtusk
1 Seal of Primordium
3 Nature's Claim
Bond of Flourishing has been OK. It seems to be better in match-ups that keep disrupting our lands (e.g. the Rock). Digging 3 is surprisingly disappointing, and the life bump has been a bit hard to notice, but it does have pros over running more Relics (e.g. not as weak to Stony Silence, not weak to Chalice of the Void on X = 1).
Spellskite has proven surprisingly useful as a wishboard target: it's a wall at worst, and it's quite good at protecting the Mycosynth lock from removal. It's often my first wish target with Karn GC whenever I cannot cast Mycosynth that turn but the board is clear. I suppose the days of boarding this guy in are rare, though (Bogles, Infect).
Yes, I anticipate boarding in one graveyard hate rock in match-ups where nuking the yard is important.
Witchbane Orb still feels like a meta slot, but since it's useful against Burn and great against RG Valakut, I believe it's a worthwhile meta slot in an open meta. If your meta is more inbred, I suppose there's stuff like Perilous Vault (for UR Phoenix, Spirits, Hollow One, Hardened Scales, etc.), Culling Scales (may be a way to boot Stony Silence for cheap, definitely a way to mass boot Whir Prison's stuff), and Meteor Golem (an expensive way to boot Stony Silence).
Karn GC still feels like Newlamog But Much Cheaper. It makes sense to boot World Breaker for him if you're looking for room for him, and I still haven't regretted going down to one 10-cmc Eldrazi.
Also, I like the idea of Bond of Flourishing, but the tepid follow up to it makes me a little hesitant to try it out for myself.
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
~~~~~
I played this list for 2 leagues - 8 card wishboard which is all I could justify without cutting into essential sideboard cards too much. It felt fine. Some matchups felt better, but more felt worse. I'm gonna go through the top 10 decks in the format and look at how the matchups change with this configuration.
Dredge first of all gets significantly worse because you're shaving grave-hate cards overall and mostly relying on Great Creator to tutor one up, on turn 3 at the earliest. This is not going to be good enough most of the time.
Grixis Shadow - the Great Creators looked pretty silly here, especially when I had to cut my 2nd and 3rd Dismembers, 3rd Relic and 3rd and 4th Thragtusks to make room for the package.
Phoenix - losing grave-hate and Dismembers, gaining...?
Amulet - worse because you shave TKS and cut Surgicals.
UWx and BGx - I think you improve a bit against UW but not much against BGx because they can pressure him so easily, compared to the 3rd and 4th Thragtusks which impact the board immediately and in a big way.
Burn - probably a minor improvement because fetching up something like Witchbane Orb game 1 is great, but you also might just die first/anyway, plus again, cutting Thragtusks hurts.
Humans - maybe a minor improvement because you effectively have 6 O-Stones, but this matchup is already great.
There are only 2 matchups where I would say Great Creator offers a significant improvement - the Tron mirror and Hardened Scales. Not coincidentally, these are the only 2 matchups where GC's static ability matters on its own. In the mirror, it becomes our second best turn-3 Tron play after Karn Liberated with the ability to fetch a Spyglass to shut off their potential Karn Liberated, and obviously why the static ability is good requires no explanation.
For Scales, again, 1-sided Stony Silence is strong, especially when you consider it shuts down their Darksteel Citadels as well, but it can be slow and they can still just attack and kill Karn.
I will mention decks like Titan Shift, Boggles, and Infect - yeah, getting Witchbane or Spellskite game 1 against these decks is great, but they're also each less than 2% of the metagame.
Now of course, this anaylsis is just based on the list I posted, and certainly you could play different cards and improve a particular matchup - having access to Torpor Orb against Amulet for example. But then you have to cut something and lose that edge in a different matchup.
People may suggest playing fewer copies of Great Creator. I'm skeptical about this as well because as you decrease his numbers, obviously you're less likely to draw him and so that makes it even harder to justify having all those narrow 1-ofs in your sideboard.
A note on Mycosynth Lattice - our deck does not need this card. It's a fun alternate win-con (that I actually found pretty hard to protect), but we already have plenty of things to end the game with that don't require putting 2 pieces together.
So in summary, I think Karn, the Great Creator is a very interesting card, a very versatile card and a very fun card. But does it improve Mono Green Tron against the field? I'm standing by my initial assessment with an emphatic no.