Totally agree @Rendroc. I am so happy it did well in Pioneer as it brought a lot of eyes to Modern Devotion...but we were here for MANY years before Pioneer existed
Sorry for delay in posting. Got SUPER busy with work stuff. Will post again when Primer is updated (now removing Karn right after I added it
have any of you played enough Simic (enough blue splash) to try mystic sanctuary in the deck?
was in a grindy match with control using sanctuary and thought, I have enough islands perhaps that would be a good way to get tooth and nail back into hand if it were countered to have a second go at it.
even more so finale of devastation for primeval titan trigger into simic growth chamber & mystic sanctuary to get finale back after u land drop the sanctuary u bounced back to your hand, so you can following turn get that 12cc finally to go off.
Interesting idea, though it’s hard to find extra space for non-green lands. Perhaps a one-of, alongside 4 Misty Rainforest. Accompanied by Veil of Summmer in the sideboard, it could make T%N much better vs. disruption, which it has struggled against in the past. Running lots of enchantment ramp such as [Overgrowth]], which tradi9tnally has been used in T&N, is a much worse option than it used to be before AssTrophy was around, so I think the ramp should be different.
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LEGACY: Soldier Stompy WW // Blue Stompy UU // Fit Variants BGRW // Sol Land Brews BGRUWC MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
There are probably plenty more but primer could probably use an update
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"To keep things 100, anything I state is an opinion and not intended to be a fact. Any and all suggestions I give are a 100% opinion. If you need further clarification take the conversation to a PM. I am not in the business of assuming things. I'm only interested in 1 business and that business serves 2 things, Cold L's and Hot Dub's."
Thoughts on the new green cards now that spoiler season is over:
Nyx Lotus - A much worse version of Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx. What makes Nykthos so powerful two main things: a low deckbuilding cost and the fact that it's nearly impossible to disrupt as a land. Turning it into a 4 mana artifact makes it vulnerable to naturalize and shatter effects and takes an entire turn to cast while still coming in tapped. I would honestly run karametra's acolyte over Lotus, since it dodges some key cards that Lotus loses to like Abrade, adds 1 to devotion, can be tutored with creature tutors like Primal Command and Summoner's Pact AND can get haste through secondary effects like Temur Ascendancy and Xenagos, God of Revels to tap immediately.
Nylea, Keen-Eyed - An overall better version of our favorite Goddess Nylea, God of the Hunt. 3 Mana to draw a creature or surveil noncreatures away is far better than 4 mana for a paltry +2/+2 and reducing the cost of creature works well with both the activated ability and our deck's main gameplan of playing expensive, big dumb creatures. Losing 1 power and the ability to grant trample is mostly irrelevant since 5/6 indestructible is still massive and most of our large creatures have trample or other evasion anyways i.e. Steel Leaf Champion.
Nylea's intervention - 3 mana for Sylvan Scrying and 1 more mana for two of them is a strong effect but I don't think this is the deck for it. Any deck that wants to grab nonbasics would much rather run Primeval Titan, since it adds devotion, dominates the board AND puts the lands directly into play rather than your hand. The second mode rarely comes up and is mostly overkill unless you're playing against spirits. This card works far better in Scapeshift or Titan decks than here. Unless some mad genius manages to make some kind of hybrid between green devotion and TitanShift decks that isn't strictly worse than a stock list.
Dryad of the Ilysian Grove - The beautiful baby of Prismatic Omen and Courser of Kruphix. Let's get the obvious comparison out of the way. Courser of Kruphix is not a worse version of this card. There are several important differences: Dryad does not draw you cards like Courser does, nor does it let you scry with fetchlands. It also doesn't gain you life or add as much to devotion, which seems more important than most are giving it credit for. On the plus side, this card both ramps you (if you can keep your hand full of lands) and fixes your mana. One important interaction to note: if you play this card after a Blood Moon has been played, it neutralizes its effects on your lands. If Blood Moon enters after Dryad has been played, Blood Moon neutralizes Dryad's effect and turns your nonbasics into mountains with no other abilities. If I were to pick 3 potential decks for this card it would be: TitanShift decks, the potential DevotionShift hybrid I mentioned above, and the new and improved constellation decks that are bound to start popping up once the set releases. Speaking of constellation...
Setessan Champion - Our new best payoff for constellation decks. My main problem with previous versions of this deck was the fact that it relied too heavily on Eidolon of Blossoms, which was strong but didn't really effect the battlefield and was vulnerable to nearly every piece of removal in the format. Champion works as an almost better version of Tireless Tracker in this deck, given that it requires no extra mana to draw cards and grow the Champ and dodges most red removal after a single trigger. I think this card could singlehandedly make constellation a real deck rather than a gimmick, not to mention the other payoffs we got for the archetype in this set like Archon of Sun's Grace.
Once Upon a Time - Free spells are as broken as always. Card is an absolute house in this deck, for 3 main reasons: we love to dig for Nykthos/ Kessig Wolf Run, we rely heavily on turn 1 mana dorks and (most importantly in my opinion) we make enough mana that we don't mind hard-casting it if we draw it later in the game. Card is nuts, the only real question is how many copies to run in any given deck. I feel like 3 is the sweet spot, since anything more 2 copies lets us run 1 less land and still hit land drops consistently, so the 3rd copy is basically free if you already play 2 copies. The fact that this card has already been banned in 2 formats should speak for itself.
Veil of Summer - Our best sideboard card for our worse matchups. It's not even remotely close. Countering Thoughtseize, removal AND counterspells for a single mana would already be absurd. The fact that you also get a card is out of the deal is just stupid. Just like OUaT, the fact that it was already banned in standard and pioneer is all you really need to know.
Nissa, Who Shakes the World - Another great card for our deck. Doubling forest mana basically just doubles our mana since 17+ of our lands are forests. Works great with Leyline of abundance, since animated lands now produce 3 mana instead of 2. My only real gripe with the card is that you can't stack counters on the same land, so it's easy to over extend into an Anger of the Gods or Supreme Verdict. But this is mitigated by the fact that the +1 is a "may" ability. Just be careful to not animate all your lands.
I can’t tell you how happy I am. For those of you to the forum; I have been a relative nut about Genesis Hydra for years and have been a very big advocate for Karn in particular (and walkers in general) for some time.
I was high on LLanowar Tribe; but had moved away from Burning-Tree Emissary and Devited Druid in my play history...I would not have seen their power in the new builds without the community here.
It’s by our community coming together that such awesome lists get made! Christopher Gooch did such an amazing job. What an awesome Devotion player. Hopefully he hops on here so we can thank him!
I think it may finally be time for people to see how good we’ve know this deck could be for a long time!
P.S. Will update the Primer ASAP to add the newest cards/list.
So, I was also attending SCG Knoxville, and also playing the Leyline List. I went 5-1, before hitting a horrible string of matches against Mono-Red Prowess, the Snow-blade deck, and with poor morale, got trash-canned by a terribly lucky TRON deck got to their payoffs faster.
I didn't get 2nd place, but here are some observations on the deck, and what I think that it needs to do to continue in a new meta.
1) Mono-Green Devotion was stupidly well-positioned in the meta at the time. The field was flooded with Urza decks and Oko-Amulit Builds. Our deck literally murders non-interactive match-ups. With any decent hand, we are faster and more explosive than any other deck in the format, and by Turn 3, we can make a ton of mana and often can play Karn, fetch, and play a stumbling block that delays long enough to command the game. In my 5 wins, I 2-0'd Tron, Urza (the most played deck), Dredge, B/G Yawgmoth, and U/G Amulet Titan. My only early loss was to Mono-Red Prowess. Which brings me to #2
2) The deck is weak to interaction / removal. Bolting our birds, or a key Thoughtseize will mess you up playing a deck that is adamant about hitting a 4-cost PW on T3 (and some games T2 - with a couple of Leylines). That's where Prowess got me. Killed any dorks I played, and pinned down the benefit of the Leylines, and hampered Nykthos.
3) Genesis Hydra was the hidden gem. Many of my opponents flipped it over to read it, and my reply was often - "It's like Krasis. No matter what, I get to look, and play." This was the hidden tech against counter-spells. I originally was playing with Krasis and Voracious Hydra, but after some play testing, the Hydra was just bonkers. It can be cast for X=4 as early as T2, but reliably by T3, and at X=4, it literally will play everything in the deck other than Once Upon a Time. If they don't have a counter, it is a game-shattering 2 for 1 on T3. And it's not that hard to consistently do.
4) This deck is fun to play. Like, really fun. I had some of the most fun, even at a high-stakes REL event.
But the real news:
1) With the Oko and Mox bans, the Urza deck is effectively dead. With that, more "fair" decks will sneak in. We are already seeing this with an increase in Mono-Red Prowess, Burn, Death's Shadow, Humans, Tron and Jund. Each of these decks have just enough gas to interrupt us enough for a win. To continue, this deck - whether in the main or in the side has to deal with early creature removal. Options include veil of Summer, or Shaper's Sanctuary - but I had been so underwhelmed with these, they weren't in my SB, though I will say I may have paid for it in my Prowess matchups.
2) The loss of Lattice may not be as bad as people think. Sure, it was a nice lock, but it was hard to pull off through potential disruption, or I was at least delayed a turn between being able to Karn for it, and play it. In fact, in more than one game, I went for the Coating because it could be "on" the next turn, and I Ponza'd out the Titan player. Between Karn and Vivien there are a lot of things out there that can disrupt or end a game. So much so, that the loss of Lattice doesn't even impact Karn's place in the deck.
I am cautiously optimistic about the future of this deck. Will be interested in what comes next.
you were playing the same list? I’m guessing this deck was basically just ported over from Pioneer.
I’m pretty sure the deck needs to be rebuilt to exclude Karn. Besides Lattice being banned, Opal was banned so artifact decks will be less prevalent, and therefore his passive is less relevant.
I’ve never been that high on Hydra, but it worked really well in that deck with not many high cc creatures for a toolbox deck, where it is awkward. It also gave a glass cannon pseudo combo deck some protection and IN ADDITION, it helped dig for the payoffs. Definitely he best deck I’ve seen for Hydra.
Unfortunately I think Karn really smoothed that deck out, and I’m not sure what could replace it.
Up to 4X Vivien for starters. So it’s only 3 slots that need to be replaced
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Always wear protection kids, sleeve up your deck.
LEGACY: Soldier Stompy WW // Blue Stompy UU // Fit Variants BGRW // Sol Land Brews BGRUWC MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
I can’t tell you how happy I am. For those of you to the forum; I have been a relative nut about Genesis Hydra for years and have been a very big advocate for Karn in particular (and walkers in general) for some time.
I was high on LLanowar Tribe; but had moved away from Burning-Tree Emissary and Devited Druid in my play history...I would not have seen their power in the new builds without the community here.
It’s by our community coming together that such awesome lists get made! Christopher Gooch did such an amazing job. What an awesome Devotion player. Hopefully he hops on here so we can thank him!
I think it may finally be time for people to see how good we’ve know this deck could be for a long time!
P.S. Will update the Primer ASAP to add the newest cards/list.
So, I was also attending SCG Knoxville, and also playing the Leyline List. I went 5-1, before hitting a horrible string of matches against Mono-Red Prowess, the Snow-blade deck, and with poor morale, got trash-canned by a terribly lucky TRON deck got to their payoffs faster.
I didn't get 2nd place, but here are some observations on the deck, and what I think that it needs to do to continue in a new meta.
1) Mono-Green Devotion was stupidly well-positioned in the meta at the time. The field was flooded with Urza decks and Oko-Amulit Builds. Our deck literally murders non-interactive match-ups. With any decent hand, we are faster and more explosive than any other deck in the format, and by Turn 3, we can make a ton of mana and often can play Karn, fetch, and play a stumbling block that delays long enough to command the game. In my 5 wins, I 2-0'd Tron, Urza (the most played deck), Dredge, B/G Yawgmoth, and U/G Amulet Titan. My only early loss was to Mono-Red Prowess. Which brings me to #2
2) The deck is weak to interaction / removal. Bolting our birds, or a key Thoughtseize will mess you up playing a deck that is adamant about hitting a 4-cost PW on T3 (and some games T2 - with a couple of Leylines). That's where Prowess got me. Killed any dorks I played, and pinned down the benefit of the Leylines, and hampered Nykthos.
3) Genesis Hydra was the hidden gem. Many of my opponents flipped it over to read it, and my reply was often - "It's like Krasis. No matter what, I get to look, and play." This was the hidden tech against counter-spells. I originally was playing with Krasis and Voracious Hydra, but after some play testing, the Hydra was just bonkers. It can be cast for X=4 as early as T2, but reliably by T3, and at X=4, it literally will play everything in the deck other than Once Upon a Time. If they don't have a counter, it is a game-shattering 2 for 1 on T3. And it's not that hard to consistently do.
4) This deck is fun to play. Like, really fun. I had some of the most fun, even at a high-stakes REL event.
But the real news:
1) With the Oko and Mox bans, the Urza deck is effectively dead. With that, more "fair" decks will sneak in. We are already seeing this with an increase in Mono-Red Prowess, Burn, Death's Shadow, Humans, Tron and Jund. Each of these decks have just enough gas to interrupt us enough for a win. To continue, this deck - whether in the main or in the side has to deal with early creature removal. Options include veil of Summer, or Shaper's Sanctuary - but I had been so underwhelmed with these, they weren't in my SB, though I will say I may have paid for it in my Prowess matchups.
2) The loss of Lattice may not be as bad as people think. Sure, it was a nice lock, but it was hard to pull off through potential disruption, or I was at least delayed a turn between being able to Karn for it, and play it. In fact, in more than one game, I went for the Coating because it could be "on" the next turn, and I Ponza'd out the Titan player. Between Karn and Vivien there are a lot of things out there that can disrupt or end a game. So much so, that the loss of Lattice doesn't even impact Karn's place in the deck.
I am cautiously optimistic about the future of this deck. Will be interested in what comes next.
WOW! Great write up!
I am also still playing Karn. The deck looks different than it used to; but I still think Karn is among the best things we can be doing.
P.S. Updated Primer will be up by Sunday. I have allotted 4 hours Saturday to finish it up. It won’t be super duper nice immediately; but we’ll add what we need overthr next week or so.
you were playing the same list? I’m guessing this deck was basically just ported over from Pioneer.
I’m pretty sure the deck needs to be rebuilt to exclude Karn. Besides Lattice being banned, Opal was banned so artifact decks will be less prevalent, and therefore his passive is less relevant.
I’ve never been that high on Hydra, but it worked really well in that deck with not many high cc creatures for a toolbox deck, where it is awkward. It also gave a glass cannon pseudo combo deck some protection and IN ADDITION, it helped dig for the payoffs. Definitely he best deck I’ve seen for Hydra.
Unfortunately I think Karn really smoothed that deck out, and I’m not sure what could replace it.
Up to 4X Vivien for starters. So it’s only 3 slots that need to be replaced
Yeah...as many know, I have been a Genesis Hydra Nut for a very long time (it is literally the #1 question I got for years...”why do you play Genesis Hydra and not just play Genesis Wave?”).
Having said that, I don’t necessarily believe it is an auto-include in all Devotion decks. The meta I play the most in has a healthy amount of control players and I have always played lot of Planeswalkers...so it wasn’t as much being “ahead of the curve” as much as it just worked well in the decks I played/meta I played in. Yes I think the card is awesome; but I can see decklists not needing or wanting it.
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There are options without Karn that can work fine. I do think that 4-drop Planeswalkers seem to be our “sweet spot” (I’ve been playing a very fun deck with Jace, the Mind Sculptor kinda like the “turbo lands” deck of old) and I’ve like Nahiri in the past (as the deck i played could also just hard-cast Emrakul at times too); but I also am very partial to Planeswalkers.
There is also just the new Tooth and Nail decks, switching to a Vivien & Nissa WSTW heavy version of the current list, or playing a Toolbox/Primal Command list. We have options!
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I tried to brew a list with Setessan Champion and even Calyx...but it’s not there yet.
I do agree that Champion Is great and we have huge advantages in the fact that we already want to play Utopia Sprawl, Oath of Nissa, Courser of Kruphix, and Abundant Growth (a card I like to play)....my only real decision was what payoffs to utilize.
Calyx actually wasn’t bad; but I did often use his -3 ability to start. He does require very heavy enchantment volume.
I’ll post the list if it actually goes anywhere; but right now it’s not where I want it. I thought of doing the Heliod + Ballista combo in it (as Calyx can grab a Heliod and Ballista is good in a Devotion deck); but wasn’t certain if it would just be a worse version of other Heliod combo decks.
you were playing the same list? I’m guessing this deck was basically just ported over from Pioneer.
I’m pretty sure the deck needs to be rebuilt to exclude Karn. Besides Lattice being banned, Opal was banned so artifact decks will be less prevalent, and therefore his passive is less relevant.
I’ve never been that high on Hydra, but it worked really well in that deck with not many high cc creatures for a toolbox deck, where it is awkward. It also gave a glass cannon pseudo combo deck some protection and IN ADDITION, it helped dig for the payoffs. Definitely he best deck I’ve seen for Hydra.
Unfortunately I think Karn really smoothed that deck out, and I’m not sure what could replace it.
Up to 4X Vivien for starters. So it’s only 3 slots that need to be replaced
So, my list wasn't exact. I was playing a couple more lands, and was using Wistful Selkie instead of Llanowar Tribe, so my main deck creature count was a few under the Gooch.
1) Most of the Mono-G at Knox (and I only think there were a handful of them), were already playing 4x Vivien. She is removal, avoidance, and can fetch creatures from sideboard. With 3 pips, I think she is a staple of the deck. A fun trick is tapping Nykthos to get the mana in the pool, -5 Vivien (the turn after she is played), and fetching Ulamog to play with all that fancy mana. Not hard to do T3 (or 4).
2) Llanowar tribe may be a change I make if I continue to play it. It takes a full Lightning Bolt to get rid of (unlike other dorks can get bit with a lava spike), and is not a bad late-game draw. The Selkie gave me the same devotion, but netted me a card, which is what the deck needs IMO.
3) I don't think you give up on Karn. Lattice was nice, but it was fragile. Very few times early game can you play Karn, -2, fetch lattice, and play on the same turn. Sometimes the crack back against a minused Karn (when you tapped your blockers to cast) means the combo breaks down. There are a mountain of other options to fetch for that impact the game long enough for you to win. Just look at the Gooch's SB for proof. I am going to work to keep him, because the toolbox is still powerful in Modern, allowing you to basically sideboard every game. Ponza is still a thing. On the play, you can keep Tron off Tron indefinitely with Karn + Coating.
Again, I loved the deck. It felt explosive and powerful. It is disheartening having your nobles and birds pinged, which is the major weakness of the deck.
There are probably plenty more but primer could probably use an update
the one i can attest to is nissa, who shakes the world just about ever wincon in the deck is castable if she sticks. she has a solid chance to sticking as she has 5 (6) loyalty to start with.
I use to use here with oko just to make 6/6 lands for the beat down game, but now shes back to pure mana doubling.
my deck doesn't support the 3/3 lands in it current form but im tinkering with some ideas on how to make it abusable again.
such at running nexus of fate for multiple turns of beat down.
Quick question about updates Primer...how much historical data should we include? I’m gonna post Primmal Command Loop decks, A Genesis Wave deck, Tooth and nail, and Karn deck (the last few with Leyline as well)...but didn’t know how far to go down the rabbit hole.
I want people to understand they have options; but also want to only present the historical and current most competitive win conditions.
@dos_rogue Interesting point...Nissa is definitely super powerful. The only tension i ran into was that the deck runs on so few lands I sometimes didn’t turn them into 3/3 creatures.
I have been playing a superfriends list (only new card being Dryad of the Ilysian Grove) and it has been pretty good... I do worry not playing OUaT though.
she only needs to mana double to get tooth and nail or finale of devastation to go off. marching in several 3/3s is really just alterior path to victory you use second. in the process of making devastation go off that +10/+10 to a haste vigilance land. an ETB untap all creatures would be a real good FoD fetch. pulling nissa's 3/3 lands into the wincon. dunno what creature would do an untap all though
Super friends bothers me a bit in the meta right now as I see a lot of grixis aggro (something running death's shadow typically) or urza combinations, they seem to bring in negate type cards, thus a high chance for a countered planeswalker which can be game over in these match ups.
I'm a big fan of questing beast really reverses the aggro race on its own with haste.
I do like that its death touch stares down eldrazi threats that otherwise is enough pressure to beat through or force you to block with mana dorks.
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on a side note i'm really missing oko, thief of crowns cause he could level the playing field by taking out flying threats such as spirits. getting them back on the ground as 3/3s
posting in a single thread can be a bit of a "tunnel vision" but i noticed lot of other threads around this one and forums outside of the established are months old without activity,,,
did something happen to mtgsalvation's user bases recently?
Feels like activity dropped off.
posting in a single thread can be a bit of a "tunnel vision" but i noticed lot of other threads around this one and forums outside of the established are months old without activity,,,
did something happen to mtgsalvation's user bases recently?
Feels like activity dropped off.
Yeah...they announced a while back they (Salvations) were shutting down, then didn’t, but created another site...so every Primer has to be maintained on two sites (makes changes/updates difficult especially when you want the community to have a say in it).
Also, Pioneer took a lot of brewers out of Modern for the time being. The established decks don’t really change a lot...so there isn’t a ton to post until new sets/cards change the meta).
There is still a TON going on in Modern though. There is more than enough to keep the Modern community busy. Between streamers like Cherry, Magus, Aspiring Spike, Yellow Hat, YamaKiller, Squacheif, and a few others (I know I’m forgetting some)..you can watch game play and new lists 24/7. There also is a great community in the chats there.
SCG event data can be tough because for whatever reason SCG events tend to bring a lot of spikes that net deck the most recent hot deck; but GP’s and other events on the deck dumps are good sources for info. There is a ton of online and local tournament data on mtgdecks.net, here, and mtggoldfish too.
So there is ample data to learn from; but the community is a little more spread out than it used to be. The Modern season will swing back though (it always does). Pioneer came along at a time where the community wasn’t sure where to go (multiple discord’s were started, so it was just a lot all at once that spread us out. It will definitely swing back around as things settle down.
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I haven’t had a big issue with control (possibly because i play Genesis Hydra and Veil) but I do see what you’re saying. But I tend to do play more interactive versions that overwhelm/combo. I don’t think they are better than the straight “ramp to X” decks (like Tooth and nail, etc.). I just enjoy the play style more personally.
I still, however, do think Karn is amazing in Devotion and wouldn’t move from it yet.
This is built to kill the meta super efficiently. Great list. It contains what k believe are the “Golden Rules” of a Devotion deck:
1. It’s early pieces (1-2 drops) only ramp or develop card advantage/consistency while adding to Devotion.
2. It has mid game interaction (as we are rarely as consistently fast as the fastest combo decks in the format)
3. It’s win-Conditions are Scalable.
Of course I’m a sucker for any deck playing Genesis Hydra and Karn
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The list I’m playing is relatively similar to the above. I do play a 1-of Cloudstone Curio in my board (to enable the deck to play the old Curio Walker infinite combo I used to play)...as Karn can tutor for it and in some situations it’s in auto win; but mine is a little more Suoerfriends and a little less Land Destruction. It runs on the same principles though (ramp to early powerful interactive permanents; then go over the top/overwhelm late with scalable tools).
It also has land destruction built in, which is really rare. Didn't even know green could do that. I knew it wierd stuff like hurricane
side topic is a devotion deck possible going in a stompy direction? I also saw in the primer some elves builds are those still possible?
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"To keep things 100, anything I state is an opinion and not intended to be a fact. Any and all suggestions I give are a 100% opinion. If you need further clarification take the conversation to a PM. I am not in the business of assuming things. I'm only interested in 1 business and that business serves 2 things, Cold L's and Hot Dub's."
It also has land destruction built in, which is really rare. Didn't even know green could do that. I knew it wierd stuff like hurricane
side topic is a devotion deck possible going in a stompy direction? I also saw in the primer some elves builds are those still possible?
You could definitely go Stompy (3-drop Kiora is great in Stompy versions)
Yes...Elves is always a possibility because of Ezuri.
There are two ways you can go with Elves...the Leyline Version can actually lead to infinite combos with Devoted Druid and Ezuri; but just straight up aggro with Joraga Warcaller and/or Ezuri is great too. Elves lend themselves to Devotion so well because they have amazing mana-sinks. I only stopped posting the Elves lists because Elves at the time just took on Nykthos and didn’t consider themselves a Devotion deck (so I didn’t want to take away from that Primer...at the time I ran it as well).
with uro, titan of nature's wrath now in the meta, im thinking if your adding to devotion, then azcanta has even more possibility for the desk as you want to feed uro to some extend.
furthering my speculation on this is often theres game where we need to find our game winning planeswalker or tooth and nail or even finale of devastation, [c]primal command[/c} etc. heck with garruk wildspeaker you may end up just double search for azcanta in a turn.
Sorry for delay in posting. Got SUPER busy with work stuff. Will post again when Primer is updated (now removing Karn right after I added it
was in a grindy match with control using sanctuary and thought, I have enough islands perhaps that would be a good way to get tooth and nail back into hand if it were countered to have a second go at it.
even more so finale of devastation for primeval titan trigger into simic growth chamber & mystic sanctuary to get finale back after u land drop the sanctuary u bounced back to your hand, so you can following turn get that 12cc finally to go off.
went 3-0-1 with a nissa, who shakes the world tooth and nail deck.
I miss the 6/6 elk lands nissa and oko use to make.
MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
nyx lotus
nissa, who shakes the world
nylea keen-eyed
nylea's intervention
once upon a time
veil of summer
There are probably plenty more but primer could probably use an update
-Stay Frosty
Nyx Lotus - A much worse version of Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx. What makes Nykthos so powerful two main things: a low deckbuilding cost and the fact that it's nearly impossible to disrupt as a land. Turning it into a 4 mana artifact makes it vulnerable to naturalize and shatter effects and takes an entire turn to cast while still coming in tapped. I would honestly run karametra's acolyte over Lotus, since it dodges some key cards that Lotus loses to like Abrade, adds 1 to devotion, can be tutored with creature tutors like Primal Command and Summoner's Pact AND can get haste through secondary effects like Temur Ascendancy and Xenagos, God of Revels to tap immediately.
Nylea, Keen-Eyed - An overall better version of our favorite Goddess Nylea, God of the Hunt. 3 Mana to draw a creature or surveil noncreatures away is far better than 4 mana for a paltry +2/+2 and reducing the cost of creature works well with both the activated ability and our deck's main gameplan of playing expensive, big dumb creatures. Losing 1 power and the ability to grant trample is mostly irrelevant since 5/6 indestructible is still massive and most of our large creatures have trample or other evasion anyways i.e. Steel Leaf Champion.
Nylea's intervention - 3 mana for Sylvan Scrying and 1 more mana for two of them is a strong effect but I don't think this is the deck for it. Any deck that wants to grab nonbasics would much rather run Primeval Titan, since it adds devotion, dominates the board AND puts the lands directly into play rather than your hand. The second mode rarely comes up and is mostly overkill unless you're playing against spirits. This card works far better in Scapeshift or Titan decks than here. Unless some mad genius manages to make some kind of hybrid between green devotion and TitanShift decks that isn't strictly worse than a stock list.
Dryad of the Ilysian Grove - The beautiful baby of Prismatic Omen and Courser of Kruphix. Let's get the obvious comparison out of the way. Courser of Kruphix is not a worse version of this card. There are several important differences: Dryad does not draw you cards like Courser does, nor does it let you scry with fetchlands. It also doesn't gain you life or add as much to devotion, which seems more important than most are giving it credit for. On the plus side, this card both ramps you (if you can keep your hand full of lands) and fixes your mana. One important interaction to note: if you play this card after a Blood Moon has been played, it neutralizes its effects on your lands. If Blood Moon enters after Dryad has been played, Blood Moon neutralizes Dryad's effect and turns your nonbasics into mountains with no other abilities. If I were to pick 3 potential decks for this card it would be: TitanShift decks, the potential DevotionShift hybrid I mentioned above, and the new and improved constellation decks that are bound to start popping up once the set releases. Speaking of constellation...
Setessan Champion - Our new best payoff for constellation decks. My main problem with previous versions of this deck was the fact that it relied too heavily on Eidolon of Blossoms, which was strong but didn't really effect the battlefield and was vulnerable to nearly every piece of removal in the format. Champion works as an almost better version of Tireless Tracker in this deck, given that it requires no extra mana to draw cards and grow the Champ and dodges most red removal after a single trigger. I think this card could singlehandedly make constellation a real deck rather than a gimmick, not to mention the other payoffs we got for the archetype in this set like Archon of Sun's Grace.
Once Upon a Time - Free spells are as broken as always. Card is an absolute house in this deck, for 3 main reasons: we love to dig for Nykthos/ Kessig Wolf Run, we rely heavily on turn 1 mana dorks and (most importantly in my opinion) we make enough mana that we don't mind hard-casting it if we draw it later in the game. Card is nuts, the only real question is how many copies to run in any given deck. I feel like 3 is the sweet spot, since anything more 2 copies lets us run 1 less land and still hit land drops consistently, so the 3rd copy is basically free if you already play 2 copies. The fact that this card has already been banned in 2 formats should speak for itself.
Veil of Summer - Our best sideboard card for our worse matchups. It's not even remotely close. Countering Thoughtseize, removal AND counterspells for a single mana would already be absurd. The fact that you also get a card is out of the deal is just stupid. Just like OUaT, the fact that it was already banned in standard and pioneer is all you really need to know.
Nissa, Who Shakes the World - Another great card for our deck. Doubling forest mana basically just doubles our mana since 17+ of our lands are forests. Works great with Leyline of abundance, since animated lands now produce 3 mana instead of 2. My only real gripe with the card is that you can't stack counters on the same land, so it's easy to over extend into an Anger of the Gods or Supreme Verdict. But this is mitigated by the fact that the +1 is a "may" ability. Just be careful to not animate all your lands.
So, I was also attending SCG Knoxville, and also playing the Leyline List. I went 5-1, before hitting a horrible string of matches against Mono-Red Prowess, the Snow-blade deck, and with poor morale, got trash-canned by a terribly lucky TRON deck got to their payoffs faster.
I didn't get 2nd place, but here are some observations on the deck, and what I think that it needs to do to continue in a new meta.
1) Mono-Green Devotion was stupidly well-positioned in the meta at the time. The field was flooded with Urza decks and Oko-Amulit Builds. Our deck literally murders non-interactive match-ups. With any decent hand, we are faster and more explosive than any other deck in the format, and by Turn 3, we can make a ton of mana and often can play Karn, fetch, and play a stumbling block that delays long enough to command the game. In my 5 wins, I 2-0'd Tron, Urza (the most played deck), Dredge, B/G Yawgmoth, and U/G Amulet Titan. My only early loss was to Mono-Red Prowess. Which brings me to #2
2) The deck is weak to interaction / removal. Bolting our birds, or a key Thoughtseize will mess you up playing a deck that is adamant about hitting a 4-cost PW on T3 (and some games T2 - with a couple of Leylines). That's where Prowess got me. Killed any dorks I played, and pinned down the benefit of the Leylines, and hampered Nykthos.
3) Genesis Hydra was the hidden gem. Many of my opponents flipped it over to read it, and my reply was often - "It's like Krasis. No matter what, I get to look, and play." This was the hidden tech against counter-spells. I originally was playing with Krasis and Voracious Hydra, but after some play testing, the Hydra was just bonkers. It can be cast for X=4 as early as T2, but reliably by T3, and at X=4, it literally will play everything in the deck other than Once Upon a Time. If they don't have a counter, it is a game-shattering 2 for 1 on T3. And it's not that hard to consistently do.
4) This deck is fun to play. Like, really fun. I had some of the most fun, even at a high-stakes REL event.
But the real news:
1) With the Oko and Mox bans, the Urza deck is effectively dead. With that, more "fair" decks will sneak in. We are already seeing this with an increase in Mono-Red Prowess, Burn, Death's Shadow, Humans, Tron and Jund. Each of these decks have just enough gas to interrupt us enough for a win. To continue, this deck - whether in the main or in the side has to deal with early creature removal. Options include veil of Summer, or Shaper's Sanctuary - but I had been so underwhelmed with these, they weren't in my SB, though I will say I may have paid for it in my Prowess matchups.
2) The loss of Lattice may not be as bad as people think. Sure, it was a nice lock, but it was hard to pull off through potential disruption, or I was at least delayed a turn between being able to Karn for it, and play it. In fact, in more than one game, I went for the Coating because it could be "on" the next turn, and I Ponza'd out the Titan player. Between Karn and Vivien there are a lot of things out there that can disrupt or end a game. So much so, that the loss of Lattice doesn't even impact Karn's place in the deck.
I am cautiously optimistic about the future of this deck. Will be interested in what comes next.
you were playing the same list? I’m guessing this deck was basically just ported over from Pioneer.
I’m pretty sure the deck needs to be rebuilt to exclude Karn. Besides Lattice being banned, Opal was banned so artifact decks will be less prevalent, and therefore his passive is less relevant.
I’ve never been that high on Hydra, but it worked really well in that deck with not many high cc creatures for a toolbox deck, where it is awkward. It also gave a glass cannon pseudo combo deck some protection and IN ADDITION, it helped dig for the payoffs. Definitely he best deck I’ve seen for Hydra.
Unfortunately I think Karn really smoothed that deck out, and I’m not sure what could replace it.
Up to 4X Vivien for starters. So it’s only 3 slots that need to be replaced
MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
WOW! Great write up!
I am also still playing Karn. The deck looks different than it used to; but I still think Karn is among the best things we can be doing.
P.S. Updated Primer will be up by Sunday. I have allotted 4 hours Saturday to finish it up. It won’t be super duper nice immediately; but we’ll add what we need overthr next week or so.
Yeah...as many know, I have been a Genesis Hydra Nut for a very long time (it is literally the #1 question I got for years...”why do you play Genesis Hydra and not just play Genesis Wave?”).
Having said that, I don’t necessarily believe it is an auto-include in all Devotion decks. The meta I play the most in has a healthy amount of control players and I have always played lot of Planeswalkers...so it wasn’t as much being “ahead of the curve” as much as it just worked well in the decks I played/meta I played in. Yes I think the card is awesome; but I can see decklists not needing or wanting it.
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There are options without Karn that can work fine. I do think that 4-drop Planeswalkers seem to be our “sweet spot” (I’ve been playing a very fun deck with Jace, the Mind Sculptor kinda like the “turbo lands” deck of old) and I’ve like Nahiri in the past (as the deck i played could also just hard-cast Emrakul at times too); but I also am very partial to Planeswalkers.
There is also just the new Tooth and Nail decks, switching to a Vivien & Nissa WSTW heavy version of the current list, or playing a Toolbox/Primal Command list. We have options!
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I tried to brew a list with Setessan Champion and even Calyx...but it’s not there yet.
I do agree that Champion Is great and we have huge advantages in the fact that we already want to play Utopia Sprawl, Oath of Nissa, Courser of Kruphix, and Abundant Growth (a card I like to play)....my only real decision was what payoffs to utilize.
Calyx actually wasn’t bad; but I did often use his -3 ability to start. He does require very heavy enchantment volume.
I’ll post the list if it actually goes anywhere; but right now it’s not where I want it. I thought of doing the Heliod + Ballista combo in it (as Calyx can grab a Heliod and Ballista is good in a Devotion deck); but wasn’t certain if it would just be a worse version of other Heliod combo decks.
So, my list wasn't exact. I was playing a couple more lands, and was using Wistful Selkie instead of Llanowar Tribe, so my main deck creature count was a few under the Gooch.
1) Most of the Mono-G at Knox (and I only think there were a handful of them), were already playing 4x Vivien. She is removal, avoidance, and can fetch creatures from sideboard. With 3 pips, I think she is a staple of the deck. A fun trick is tapping Nykthos to get the mana in the pool, -5 Vivien (the turn after she is played), and fetching Ulamog to play with all that fancy mana. Not hard to do T3 (or 4).
2) Llanowar tribe may be a change I make if I continue to play it. It takes a full Lightning Bolt to get rid of (unlike other dorks can get bit with a lava spike), and is not a bad late-game draw. The Selkie gave me the same devotion, but netted me a card, which is what the deck needs IMO.
3) I don't think you give up on Karn. Lattice was nice, but it was fragile. Very few times early game can you play Karn, -2, fetch lattice, and play on the same turn. Sometimes the crack back against a minused Karn (when you tapped your blockers to cast) means the combo breaks down. There are a mountain of other options to fetch for that impact the game long enough for you to win. Just look at the Gooch's SB for proof. I am going to work to keep him, because the toolbox is still powerful in Modern, allowing you to basically sideboard every game. Ponza is still a thing. On the play, you can keep Tron off Tron indefinitely with Karn + Coating.
Again, I loved the deck. It felt explosive and powerful. It is disheartening having your nobles and birds pinged, which is the major weakness of the deck.
the one i can attest to is nissa, who shakes the world just about ever wincon in the deck is castable if she sticks. she has a solid chance to sticking as she has 5 (6) loyalty to start with.
I use to use here with oko just to make 6/6 lands for the beat down game, but now shes back to pure mana doubling.
my deck doesn't support the 3/3 lands in it current form but im tinkering with some ideas on how to make it abusable again.
such at running nexus of fate for multiple turns of beat down.
I want people to understand they have options; but also want to only present the historical and current most competitive win conditions.
I have been playing a superfriends list (only new card being Dryad of the Ilysian Grove) and it has been pretty good... I do worry not playing OUaT though.
Super friends bothers me a bit in the meta right now as I see a lot of grixis aggro (something running death's shadow typically) or urza combinations, they seem to bring in negate type cards, thus a high chance for a countered planeswalker which can be game over in these match ups.
Dryad definitely replaces courser of kruphix.
I'm a big fan of questing beast really reverses the aggro race on its own with haste.
I do like that its death touch stares down eldrazi threats that otherwise is enough pressure to beat through or force you to block with mana dorks.
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on a side note i'm really missing oko, thief of crowns cause he could level the playing field by taking out flying threats such as spirits. getting them back on the ground as 3/3s
posting in a single thread can be a bit of a "tunnel vision" but i noticed lot of other threads around this one and forums outside of the established are months old without activity,,,
did something happen to mtgsalvation's user bases recently?
Feels like activity dropped off.
Yeah...they announced a while back they (Salvations) were shutting down, then didn’t, but created another site...so every Primer has to be maintained on two sites (makes changes/updates difficult especially when you want the community to have a say in it).
Also, Pioneer took a lot of brewers out of Modern for the time being. The established decks don’t really change a lot...so there isn’t a ton to post until new sets/cards change the meta).
There is still a TON going on in Modern though. There is more than enough to keep the Modern community busy. Between streamers like Cherry, Magus, Aspiring Spike, Yellow Hat, YamaKiller, Squacheif, and a few others (I know I’m forgetting some)..you can watch game play and new lists 24/7. There also is a great community in the chats there.
SCG event data can be tough because for whatever reason SCG events tend to bring a lot of spikes that net deck the most recent hot deck; but GP’s and other events on the deck dumps are good sources for info. There is a ton of online and local tournament data on mtgdecks.net, here, and mtggoldfish too.
So there is ample data to learn from; but the community is a little more spread out than it used to be. The Modern season will swing back though (it always does). Pioneer came along at a time where the community wasn’t sure where to go (multiple discord’s were started, so it was just a lot all at once that spread us out. It will definitely swing back around as things settle down.
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I haven’t had a big issue with control (possibly because i play Genesis Hydra and Veil) but I do see what you’re saying. But I tend to do play more interactive versions that overwhelm/combo. I don’t think they are better than the straight “ramp to X” decks (like Tooth and nail, etc.). I just enjoy the play style more personally.
I still, however, do think Karn is amazing in Devotion and wouldn’t move from it yet.
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And yes...I do really miss Oko. So good!
https://mtgdecks.net/Modern/mono-green-ramp-decklist-by-rpangriff-924222
This is built to kill the meta super efficiently. Great list. It contains what k believe are the “Golden Rules” of a Devotion deck:
1. It’s early pieces (1-2 drops) only ramp or develop card advantage/consistency while adding to Devotion.
2. It has mid game interaction (as we are rarely as consistently fast as the fastest combo decks in the format)
3. It’s win-Conditions are Scalable.
Of course I’m a sucker for any deck playing Genesis Hydra and Karn
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The list I’m playing is relatively similar to the above. I do play a 1-of Cloudstone Curio in my board (to enable the deck to play the old Curio Walker infinite combo I used to play)...as Karn can tutor for it and in some situations it’s in auto win; but mine is a little more Suoerfriends and a little less Land Destruction. It runs on the same principles though (ramp to early powerful interactive permanents; then go over the top/overwhelm late with scalable tools).
side topic is a devotion deck possible going in a stompy direction? I also saw in the primer some elves builds are those still possible?
-Stay Frosty
You could definitely go Stompy (3-drop Kiora is great in Stompy versions)
Yes...Elves is always a possibility because of Ezuri.
There are two ways you can go with Elves...the Leyline Version can actually lead to infinite combos with Devoted Druid and Ezuri; but just straight up aggro with Joraga Warcaller and/or Ezuri is great too. Elves lend themselves to Devotion so well because they have amazing mana-sinks. I only stopped posting the Elves lists because Elves at the time just took on Nykthos and didn’t consider themselves a Devotion deck (so I didn’t want to take away from that Primer...at the time I ran it as well).
more and more recently i've been trying to add search for azcanta to the list.
in a deck even like yours for example, https://mtgdecks.net/Modern/mono-green-ramp-decklist-by-rpangriff-924222
or tooth and nail list like this https://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=32987&iddeck=290140
Azcanta, the sunken ruin has a lot it can dig for in devotion lists.
with uro, titan of nature's wrath now in the meta, im thinking if your adding
furthering my speculation on this is often theres game where we need to find our game winning planeswalker or tooth and nail or even finale of devastation, [c]primal command[/c} etc. heck with garruk wildspeaker you may end up just double search for azcanta in a turn.
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even Narset, Parter of Veils has similar values.