Hey guys! What a great discussion! Hopefully I can add a little insight as well on top of learning.
To begin, I think you are right Pedros that we have to compare apples to apples. Any ramp deck gets kinda broken down into "the engine" and "the win-cons" and there is no point in comparing the engine to the win-cons. I consider Chord of Calling to fall more into the "Win-Con" side of things (although it is extremely versatile) so I will compare it there.
1. When I first began using Chord of Calling (and at the time I ran a full set); I too had a much more "toolbox" version of the deck. After tons of testing, however, I found that often times I had devoted so much of the deck to the "toolbox" that (a) it slowed the deck down and greatly reduced two of the most powerful advantages of the deck, it's speed and it's consistency. Chord has some amazingly great functions though. These include, (a) fetching your win-con when you have a ton of mana (i.e. grabbing a Craterhoof, Prime Time, etc.)...essentially it acts as multiple copies of your win-cons, (b) to tutor up a great sideboard answer (this is kind of self-explanatory and does take advantage of the "toolbox" nature of the card) basically just as before' it can act as more copies of one specific hate card, (c) to help you "get back in the game"...often times you can use it to find an Elvish Archdruid (in my case), and Eternal Witness (in Pedro's build) to grab something important back, or even a Coiling Oracle to draw a card and/or get another land and elf on the board, or (d) to perform some "combat tricks" (i.e. to chord up an Elvish Archdruid to protect two 1/1's from an Electrolyze that was cast, to Chord for an Ezuri to Regenerate a few elves, to chord into a Prime Time when they attack with their 4/4, or to simply give a creature "quasi-haste" by casting it at the end of their turn.
There are a ton of great reasons to utilize Chord of Calling in a devotion build; but I found that I had to be careful not to count on it too much. I found that if I wanted to play a full-on toolbox deck; I was better off just playing Pod. I found that Devotion/Ramp decks get a good part of their power out of outpacing / going over the top of their opponents and getting to an overwhelming board state.
2. Purklepuff, you are right that Ezuri makes little sense in a build unless there is an ample number of elves. I run it as a 1-of (in the past was a 2-of) due to his play-ability and synergy with the other cards in the deck. You are absolutely right that in most cases you want to use great "stand alone" cards like Arbor Elf, Primeval Titan and Garruk Wildspeaker (as you can never truly be certain the synergy will arise); but there are some instances (especially when you have ample card draw and the ability to tutor) that synergy can also be a means to an end as well. I do agree, however, that the cards chosen have to be valuable on their own as well (i.e. I would never simply play a straight up 3/3 elf just to have another elf in the build). The elf idea actually arose simply due to the fact that the best "ramping" and "card draw" creatures I found were elves ... Ezuri just allowed for another potential avenue to win.)
3. Pedros, you are right on the money about not being able to splash 3 additional colors. Even with fetch lands, full sets of both Abundant Growth and Utopia Sprawl, and Cavern of Souls; the speed of the deck makes it difficult to get all of the colors you need as quickly as you need them. I would LOVE to play white in board; but my version plays mainly green with a splash of both red and blue. Blue is almost specifically for Coiling Oracle (although it does allow for some sideboard options as the meta shifts). To answer your questions, I would say that I utilize "blue" via my first Utopia Sprawl approximately 80% of the time (as Coiling Oracle typically comes before Kessig Wolf Run). I would say I fetch Kessig Wolf Run / Nykthos Shrine to nyx with Prime Time approximately 50% of the time. Sometimes it's Kessig/Stomping Ground (if I don't have the red), sometimes it's Kessig/Cavern (if playing against control and I have something in my hand I want to cast the next turn), and sometimes it could even be Nykthos / Forest (in extremely rare/odd situations or if I already have everything else on board). They come into play tapped; so if I already have a Nykthos down, I won't grab another.
I haven't had any real issues with fixing mana. There have been a few games...approximately 10%....where I either can't cast Coiling Oracle on turn two or can't cast two Oracles in a row if I have them in my hand. I most likely will add a fourth Misty Rainforest to the deck to further aid fixing (as I can't recall the exact reason why I only run four...it literally may be because I only had three at the time however at this point the deck runs extremely smoothly. I LOVE the idea of adding white; I'm just not sure it's possible.
3. Without trying to argue too much (as I see merit in both sides of this discussion and do think there is a "happy medium") I would state the following:
(a) In my opinion (and this is only my opinion) green devotion builds do require a healthy amount of card draw. The synergy created by drawing cards actually helps you more quickly ramp (via both devotion and "traditional ramping" and overwhelm the opponent. It's easy when ramping to run out of cards, draw only your "ramping" guys and/or even draw only your win cons...card draw helps you "feed the beast" and helps smooth out your lines.
(b) Purklepuff is right (as are others) that we (devotion brewers that is) can sometimes get a little too focused on devotion count. I have done this in the past as well. Once you've reached 4+ devotion, you already have a good advantage. I have never been a huge fan of Burning-Tree Emissary (however I do understand how it's ETB trigger can work in some cases) and feel that it is one of those cards that doesn't have a large enough effect/value (in Modern) to be used despite it's two green symbols. The same is true of several cards. I even stopped using Wistful Selkie because I found having the card a turn earlier was more important than the extra 2-devotion. Filling the board with green symbols isn't goal number one; it will happen naturally in the right build(s).
(c) I don't think it's crazy to run only 3 Eternal Witness as she does require something to be in the graveyard to obtain the full value from her the first time she is cast. I of course am on the "outside" of the Eternal Witness argument, however (as I don't have her in my build). This is NOT because I think it is a poor card. On the contrary, she is amazing; and if I played Primal Command I would definitely have her in my build as well. I've just found that in my particular build; I'm better off simply drawing a card with a 2-mana creature vs. getting one back from my library for 3-mana. I do understand the amazing power Eternal Witness can have off of a Genesis Wave; and I wouldn't have given up that effect if I hadn't found something similar. I generally will hit enough "draw triggers" off of a wave to hit the creature I want and/or a Chord of Calling that will allow me to use my new lands and creatures to tutor for it at instant speed. I truly believe that in most cases Genesis Wave should be treated as a "win-con" (i.e. you should be able to win the turn you cast it) and Eternal Witness can go a long way to doing so. I'm not against using Eternal Witness at all...in the Primal Command versions of the deck I think she is a perfect 3-4 of. Of course, if the lock is one of your main win-cons...you'll most likely want to run four.
(d) Elesh Norn is a spectacular card. I look at her more as a "Win-Con" than a "hate" card (although she pretty much encompasses both but if I ran white I would run a 1-of in my mainboard as well. It's a great win-con. It doesn't work in my build; but I can definitely see why you like it! Spellskite is also a great hate card and can really hamper a lot of decks. I'm not as high on Linvala and Inferno Titan.
Many of these discussions also boil down to play-style. Green Devotion is going to be a "Teir 1" archetype in my opinion; however just as there are slight iterations of other top-tier decks; the same will be true of Green Devotion. While I prefer a version that is a little more on the "aggressive" end (although I feel there are ways to do this while still maintaining card advantage); I can totally understand how someone else may want to play a turn or two slower and have more disruption. Each type of deck will have slightly different success against different decks (and can sideboard appropriately). In the end, we are all looking for the same thing; bringing Green Devotion to the forefront of Modern and letting people how awesome it is to play! The best things we can do is present the pros and cons of each "archetype" of Green Devotion so that players can choose which they prefer. GnuHouse and Pedro (fortunately for the rest of us) have already done so...and deserve a HUGE thanks for doing so!
Keep up the great work and great discussion guys! I'll try to do my best to present the pro's and cons of my particular build to any and all who ask as well.
As an aside, Pedros, to answer your question, I only run 3 Elvish Archdruid because I don't care to see it until turn 2 or three and it's not entirely necessary to my being able to cast my win-cons. Don't get me wrong, it's a powerful card. Being able to tap for 3+ mana most turns it's down while pumping my draw/mana dorks up is GREAT. I just found that I didn't find myself needing it any more at 3 than I did at 4. It is just one of those things that you get a "feel" for while testing a bunch. I'm not against running four, I just think the deck runs slightly more smoothly with only three Archdruids. There are some games you won't even want/need him (if you begin to ramp faster than he is even necessary for). But the games where he is useful, he is SUPER useful (as the opponent has to deal with him).
If you would run Elesh Norn in the MD, would you cut Craterhoof Behemoth or run both?
Can you tell us how do you sideboard? I am mostly interested how everyone is choosing wich cards to sideboard out, as what to bring is almost given.
BTW am still interested in Elderscale Wurm. As I understand you use it vs combo to not loose. Most combos however have some bounce (cryptic command, void snare, etc). Do you try to Chord for it in response, or want to chord as fast as possible?
I am still thinking if it is possible to run 4 colors. Red only for Kessig. Blue only for Oracle (I felt love with this card, when I went elf into sprawl on blue Garruk untap oracle into land into visionary.) White only for sideboard (linvala, kataki, elesh norn, mindcensor, eidolon of rhetoric, stony silence, path to exile). I think Cavern of Souls and Abundant Growth might be what would make it possible, complemented by fetchlands and utopia sprawl, however not sure if needed. Thats why I am asking about those Elderscale Wurms, Magus of the Moon, Silent Arbiter, etc. How do you like them in matchups they are for?
I like chord of calling answer to problem match-up, however I am thinking can we look for green solution in that instance? scavenging ooze, brindle boar, acidic ooze are such example. of course there are certain solution that are not found in green, but I would prefer the green solution as it aid our game plan. what we do not want is chord of calling slowing down the deck so much that match-up that are favourable become otherwise. there is also thoughts of transformation sideboard where we board out said primal command or genesis wave and board in chord with its solution to cause opponent to mis-sideboard. what I am uncomfortable is too much colour splash and make the original deck less consistent. unless we are going a different approach altogether. what we are trying to do is add cards to improve our overall match-up without too much compromising. chord of calling is definitely a card to consider given its utility. what we will want next is the bullet that fit in well with the overall strategy. I am looking at land destruction tempo strategy that play primal command, plow under and acidic ooze and such. this help us in gaining tempo over some control and combo deck. with affinity and burn as the more difficult matchup, we can just board in creeping corrosion and such. against control or counter heavy deck, we can play dosan the falling leaf and such. I know my creature is perhaps not the optimal, but it is consistent with our game plan of devotion. just my 2 cent on this topic
If you would run Elesh Norn in the MD, would you cut Craterhoof Behemoth or run both?
Can you tell us how do you sideboard? I am mostly interested how everyone is choosing wich cards to sideboard out, as what to bring is almost given.
BTW am still interested in Elderscale Wurm. As I understand you use it vs combo to not loose. Most combos however have some bounce (cryptic command, void snare, etc). Do you try to Chord for it in response, or want to chord as fast as possible?
I am still thinking if it is possible to run 4 colors. Red only for Kessig. Blue only for Oracle (I felt love with this card, when I went elf into sprawl on blue Garruk untap oracle into land into visionary.) White only for sideboard (linvala, kataki, elesh norn, mindcensor, eidolon of rhetoric, stony silence, path to exile). I think Cavern of Souls and Abundant Growth might be what would make it possible, complemented by fetchlands and utopia sprawl, however not sure if needed. Thats why I am asking about those Elderscale Wurms, Magus of the Moon, Silent Arbiter, etc. How do you like them in matchups they are for?
To be honest, if I ran White, I'd probably run 1-of of both Craterhoof and Elesh Norn. They are both equally powerful game enders; and Chord of Calling gives you the choice (in most cases) as to which you prefer for the specific match. Charlesching is right though that we have to be certain that any splash of color does not slow us down at all. One of the biggest advantages the deck has is its speed; so we don't want to take that away if we can help it. The blue for Coiling Oracle (which often can actually speed up the deck and the red for Kessig (which isn't needed in turns one or two) has been fine. Since you mainly discussing the sideboard, however, it may be dooable. I'm excited to see where you take the idea!
As far as Elderscale Wurm is concerned; while it is there mainly to "not lose"; if given enough time; we can pretty much do any amount of damage needed. Also, it's still a 7/7 Trampler. While you want to get to it as quickly as possible; obviously Chord can put you in a position where you have to make choices. If you have a choice of Chording for a Craterhoof to win the game; obviously you probably want to choose that. In any other situation, however, you have to choose whether you want to give you the "back up" of Elderscale Wurm or go for Primeval Titan to keep the pressure one. Traditionally, I keep the pressure on; however there are several match-ups where Elderscale Wurm is just devastating to the opponent. In particular, Scapeshift, RDW / Burn, and Storm have major difficulties with Elderscale Wurm. In these match-ups you simply want to ramp as quickly as you can to get him out. Scapeshift may have some form of "bounce" spell in some instances; but it still forces them to use it prior to Scapeshifting (which costs them more mana). Affinity has equal difficulty (as most Affinity builds don't run adequate removal for it). While Affinity is not our toughest match up in the world; it's nice to land a E.Wurm when you have 5 life left
In terms of sideboarding; it would be a HUGE answer to talk about how I board for every match-up; but there are a few steadfast rules when I sideboard:
1. You really don't want to sideboard much in any match-up. One of the worst things you can do is slow this deck down and keeping it from putting pressure on the opponent. When the opponent has to use its resources to play on the defensive; you've got a huge advantage. You want to be able to continually put pressure on the opponent and force them to answer things. A majority of match ups simply don't require much side boarding at all.
2. Having said this, there are cards that can be very hurtful to us. The main two are Torpor Orb and Damping Matrix. For this reason, I often will include a mixture of 3-4 cards (depending on the match-up) of Nature's Claims and Beast Within's. This just ensures we have an answer if and when the opponent plays what they think will be their "big hoser".
3. In many match-ups, I will replace one win-con with an Elderscale Wurm (as discussed above) as this has no real effect on the speed of the deck. While it is more of a "not lose" card; you can't lose! ha.
4. Pod, Affinity, Boggles, Storm, Tron, and other match-ups where the opponent has very little interaction/removal for us are heavily in our favor. Very little is needed in terms of sideboarding as we often are faster and go well over the top of them. Some are downright beatings
5. Our toughest match ups are Control and Twin (Control to a lesser extent). These are the match ups we side the most in for.
6. Vs. Twin we literally have to race them game and overwhelm them in games 2&3 while keeping them from the combo long enough to win in (as they typically will disrupt one or two things to push you back a turn). I haven't quite fully committed to tact I want to take in games two and three yet. Because I already have Nature's Claim and Beast Within in the board; I obviously have tools to keep them off of the combo...but I'd honestly rather not concern myself with them getting the combo (and simply beat them through the combo). I feel like the deck runs better when it's not trying to react; but obviously that can't be done in 100% of cases. It's important (I think), however, to make it as proactive as it can possibly be in every match-up. Silent Arbiter allows us to beat them regardless how many copies they make, and obviously spellskite can hold them off while also being a Kessig Wolf Run target. I've been trying to think of other cards that may help us in the same way (and am trying out a few); as often times our best defense is a good offense. If they have to block to stay alive; it begins to change how they play. Obviously both Choke or Boil (whichever I end up using) also puts them far behind us (and gives us the time needed to win the "race"). So as you can see, with Nature's Claim, Choke/Boil, Beast Within, Silent Arbiter, and Spellskite coming in; a lot has to come out. In twin match-ups; I usually will side out Ezuri, the Genesis Waves, Nissa Worldwaker, one Elvish Archdruid, and one Elvish Visionary. The main win-con vs Twin normally becomes Prime Time (as they often times can't deal with Kessig Wolf Run); although the Walkers will take over any game that goes past turn 4.
7. Vs. Control I typically side out all three Genesis Waves, one Chord of Calling, and go for a "beat down" strategy using my Boil/Chokes, Summoning Trap, and my creatures. Cavern of Souls is EXTREMELY good here. One card that has also been especially strong against Control (as well as Rock) has been Nissa Worldwaker. Both planeswalkers are good against control (and I'd say approximately 1/3 of my control match-ups are won with them); but Nissa has been especially good in these match-ups. She just puts so many threats out and represents so much ramp that once down, control decks have almost no effect way to deal with her. She keeps "plussing" while making more 4/4's and can end up killing in one "swoop" at any moment. I've especially liked Nissa Worldwaker against the grindier match-ups (such as Control, Jund, and Rock) and they seem to be where she shines. While of course she can help make a huge Wave or Chord in other match-ups; her versatility is part of what makes her powerful. One of the bigger board decisions I am currently deciding on is whether the Summoning Trap should just be another Cavern of Souls (proactive vs. reactive). Cavern is more practive; however Summoning Trap can be a blow out if you hit one of your bigger creatures. This, I feel will simply take more testing (so I can get a better guage on how many games and how long the Trap stays in my hand).
8. Some heavy black-based decks (Rock, Jund, etc.) (with Thoughtseizes, Inquisitions, tons of removal, tons of land destruction etc.) can also be longer matches than most (as they are basically control decks in another fashion). These seem to be growing in popularity. One of the biggest weaknesses I've found with these decks is that they expect a lion's share of the damage to come from Tarmogoyf and Scavenging Ooze (which they typically play 4-ofs). By siding in my own Ooze and Wheel of Sun and moon; I often times can keep their Goyfs and Oozes 2/3 or less and they can't deal enough damage before I can overwhelm them. Between that and the walkers (which tend to be very strong in these match-ups); these decks generally are not one of our tougher match ups.
These are kind of the "bigger ideas" and/or general rules for boarding with the deck. I don't want to go too long outlining every match-up available in Modern, as I don't want to waste everyone's time...and I don't mean to insinuate that this is the "perfect sideboard" for the deck either. I'm sure there is room for improvement. I will make sure to write down my sideboarding (what comes in what goes out) in each match of my testing so I can present a more thorough sideboard "plan" against each specific deck I've played against in an area where those who want to read it can but those who don't wish to don't have to waste time reading it.
elderscale wurm is our silver bullet against burn, twin and perhaps storm. damping matrix don't hurt our deck that bad. it only affect arbor elf. torpor orb hurt us the most as our creatures depend mainly on enter the board effect. viridian zealot might be an option as it provide devotion as well as hate against artifacts and enchantment.
looking back at chord of calling, we can add some green silver bullet as mentioned above without going into other colour. this will ensure speed and consistency as well as help in our devotion.
ok so guys. the discussion here is very positive. cheers for those responses earlier.
my thoughts:
elderscale wurm: i'm playing scapeshift at the next PTQ, and i'm looking at my deck right now, struggling to think what beats elderscale wurm except for remanding your chord, or bouncing the wurm with a cryptic command. other than those options, my deck is dead to wurm. that's pretty decent. excellent, even. i either have the bounce or i lose the game. pretty powerful.
same goes for splinter twin. on turn four, they tap out for splinter twin on their dude, safe in the knowledge that you're playing mono green and you can't counter their spell. you tap out for chord in response to them casting Twin, and fetch elderscale wurm, and then what do they do? they don't have the removal, they only run 2 cryptics. seems strong. only downside is they might be running a singleton pact of negation or dispel which could catch us off guard. but if they rush their combo against "the green deck" and we have enough mana for chord, we'll win.
seems excellent guys. maindeckable, even. hadn't considered it until now, but it's strong.
other cards: spellskite - i think it's strongly maindeckable. most other combo decks will be rushing for their combo game 1. you can chord for this guy as early as turn 2, and redirect triggers, splinter twin, arcbound ravager counters, karn liberated activations, all kinds of shenanigans. i think we strongly need one game 1 when everyone's trying to rush the combo. it'll take people by surprise, and that wins games. linvala, keeper of silence i still think maindeckable, just like pod decks keep her in. she just gives you a free win vs. twin/pod, if they can't find the removal. maybe she just stalls them for 2 turns and in the meantime you win. a 3/4 flyer is decent as well. she's better than resto angel for sure. i can see her as a sideboard option though, that's fine. isn't twin our weakest matchup? elesh norn, grand cenobite - in response to your comments, yes i'd consider dropping craterhoof for Norn. she does craterhoof's job fairly well and also wraths their board. she can also stop Splinter Twin in its tracks, destroy pod, jund, and others. if they have the removal it becomes difficult, that's true. so maybe the deck runs both. thrun, the last troll - i still really like this guy. he's devotion you can't bolt or kill in response to activating nykthos (the ability checks devotion on resolution) and he blocks everything, forever. against quick decks he's a road block. against control (one of the hardest matchups) he swings in effectively for free. sure he's not flashy. but he's hard to kill. if our opponents cast anger of the gods he's still going to stick around afterwards. perhaps he's sideboard only, but i like the fact that once he's on the board, he's effectively "banked" devotion that they can't really get rid of.
inferno titan - i see what you're saying. i would consider just swapping him our for wurmcoil engine as a replacement. i was just thinking "what's the single most damage dealing creature for 6 mana or less that just wins the game if they let me untap with it". inferno titan is that creature. wurmcoil doesn't care about colour fixing and it stabilises very well. flashing it in off a chord could probably net you enough advantage to win anyway. seems decent either way.
and we may still want 1x craterhoof in there for the "i win" moment. but it's unclear. i think kessig wolf run triggers should be enough, so i'll be running a list without craterhoof to test the differences.
yeah that actually seems a lot better. i chose to leave Thrun out of the mix. i'll test a few times with him in and with him out. if i find myself needing or wanting to chord him out with any regularity, i'll suggest to the group that we make a maindeck spot for him.
The second ability of Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx is a mana ability and can't be responded to. If they have priority they can remove your devotion guys but if you activate it they can't burn dudes in response. Mana doesn't use the stack.
605.1a An activated ability is a mana ability if it meets three criteria: it doesn’t have a target, it could put mana into a player’s mana pool when it resolves, and it’s not a loyalty ability.
605.3b An activated mana ability doesn’t go on the stack, so it can’t be targeted, countered, or otherwise responded to. Rather, it resolves immediately after it is activated.
good catch. i was rushing my description and missed that one.
we had a "JUDGE!" moment a few days ago where we needed to know when devotion gets checked on activated/triggered abilities. (on resolution) and i just translated that into nykthos which was, of course, incorrect.
elderscale wurm: i'm playing scapeshift at the next PTQ, and i'm looking at my deck right now, struggling to think what beats elderscale wurm except for remanding your chord, or bouncing the wurm with a cryptic command. other than those options, my deck is dead to wurm. that's pretty decent. excellent, even. i either have the bounce or i lose the game. pretty powerful.
same goes for splinter twin. on turn four, they tap out for splinter twin on their dude, safe in the knowledge that you're playing mono green and you can't counter their spell. you tap out for chord in response to them casting Twin, and fetch elderscale wurm, and then what do they do? they don't have the removal, they only run 2 cryptics. seems strong. only downside is they might be running a singleton pact of negation or dispel which could catch us off guard. but if they rush their combo against "the green deck" and we have enough mana for chord, we'll win.
seems excellent guys. maindeckable, even. hadn't considered it until now, but it's strong.
Yeah it is really powerful thing, might try it out as I am interested in it. However my question is can we chord for it vs twin or storm? Problem is that they have ways of interacting with either counterspells, bounce or burn, so we cant goldfish... You need 10 mana to chord for wurm, if you have that much mana you would either genesis wave hoping for a rebuy or bounce a land with primal command. I found that it is possible to chord for Linvala / Eidolon of Rhetoric vs those decks in response to a combo, as it is easier to have more mana. Vs Twin I would rather try to have silent arbiter or flametongue kavu or spellskite if we stay without white, and vs storm reclamation sage / scavenging ooze and try to distrupt combo that way.
Dont get me wrong, if I have wurm I would still play it in those matchups as a superior choice of hate, so in case I draw it / dont get distrupted I can put it into play. However having something cheaper would be awsome to have.
Vs Scapeshift, a deck that goldfishes around turn ~5-6 (in this matchup not paining yourself it crucial, as staying above 18 means they need 8 lands to combo off), it is very powerful answer, which similary can be suplemented by other stuff like Plow Under (non-white option), Magus of the Moon(red option) or Aven Mindcensor (white option). Even spellskite is good, as they cant kill us out of 7 lands with this on board.
Also as I am playing summoning trap, I love putting something huge vs twin or scapeshift, something that either kill them next turn (primeval titan) or stops them from comboing off.
Courser of Krupnix - is awsome sideboard card, in a 1) grindy matchups 2) lightning bolt matchups 3) matchups where life is important. I liked it so much I started playing 2-3 in a main, suplementing my 4 selkies and 4 witnesses. It is a card that is helping our strategy (more mana for devotion, hard to kill body, digging for nykthos), so dont hate playing it in md.
Wurmcoil Engine - I really like this, awsome vs decks without path to exile or other exile effects, however I dont know if so awsome vs burn (it might be too slow), if you have problem vs burn maybe Baloth/Nylea's Disciple should be better? If not then it is much powerful option. Great thing vs Zoo (I think it is a turn slower than burn so here it is probably better), Living End, Affinity(? depends if you have other choices to slow them down), Rock, Jund, UR delver. Probably also awsome vs Scapeshift or Twin, however not sure there if needed (vs scapeshift you need > 36 life to dont die from 8 lands. vs twin life doesnt matter. Both decks have bounce / counterspells / ways to tap it).
Craterhoof Behemoth - as you said it needs testing if we need more wincons. It gets them dead, while Elesh Norn swipes a board, and Elderscale wurm protects us. However those 2 don't necessary kill your opponent. I almost always feel like I am mulliganing when I see Hoof/Elesh in my opening hand.
Shriekmaw - maybe Flametongue Cavu would be better? I understand it doesnt kill everything, however it doesn't force you going into another color?
Nullmage shepherd is quite a good one, however maybe reclamation sage would be faster? We might not have 4 untapped creatures at the point of getting it into play, I feel it is very good however. Needs more testing if it is better or worse than stuff like Reclamation Sage.
Burning-tree shaman is very good vs twin, however it is not sure answer. They might have more life than we have. They might also combo off with pestermite. It is similar, how rakdos charm isnt sure answer vs twin.
Melira is awsome vs Infect, it is cheap and easy to fetch up. I think we are really dead to infect, however infect isnt a popular choice right now. I would probably always bring it to the site, and if I know huge croud / better players are playing it, I would make a choice of changing my sideboard. It is similar to when I played last PTQ, I heard there is 20% of affinity in a field. I disregarded it and didnt put stony silences in a board, then lost 2 sideboarded games drawing worse cards in this matchup (that were good in other matchups, but much worse vs affinity). So this is probably meta choice, in an open meta I dont think you have slot for it.
Acidic Slime - I really like this card, played it every time I could in standard, in either Junk reanimator or Bant Primespeaker, previously in red green beatdown or green beatdown. I am not sure if it is good in modern, need more testing. Problem is that 5 mana is a lot for this kind of effect. I think this is a card that the users need to tell us a lot how they use it and how this card worked. If it just killed a random mana and died to bolt, if it destroyed man land / only land of color. If it traded with relevant creature / destroyed non-land card. Needs more testing and results, I will probably try to put 1 somewhere.
Dosan the falling leaf - I am not a huge fan of this card, vs counterspells I would either Cavern of Souls/Boseiyu my relevant spell (so turn it off completely) or Summoning Trap it to blow them off (in Witness deck you have a rebuy, this way you have quite a big dig power to fetch relevant 1 off).
After thinking about non-white answers, IMO spellskite, ooze, silent arbiter, elderscale wurm, flametongue cavu, reclamation sage are a must to have. Cavu seams very good vs a lot of decks to be honest, might be better than shriekmaw in Purklefluffs version (you dont need to travel to another color that way? Need to think what you hope to kill with it and then go from it).
EDIT:
I thought Flametongue Cavu was printed in modern era. I just checked it isn't. So disregrad everything I said about him ;/
Excellent discussion and great suggestions even though some of them were already considered in the old primer. Chord is an interesting card, definitely a very powerful in certain situations but what I really feel is that primal command should be the core of every G-devo decks supplemented with either chord, G-wave etc. Primal command is really such a flexible card and represents every answer you need against current meta, gains you life, wrecks every graveyard based decks, stops combo and control decks with looping and fetches creatures.
hmm... being able to cast acidic slime on turn three nearly every game does seem pretty insane. interesting sideboard strategy? or is it a maindeck strategy, feeding off slime's devotion?
for the record i think slime is a bit slow in modern. perhaps in this specific deck it becomes better. my gut says it's not the best plan. not game 1 anyway.
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Modern: G Tron, Vannifar, Jund, Druid/Vizier combo, Humans, Eldrazi Stompy (Serum Powder), Amulet, Grishoalbrand, Breach Titan, Turns, Eternal Command, As Foretold Living End, Elves, Cheerios, RUG Scapeshift
elderscale wurm will not stop scapeshift totally. they can and will go for 8 land, kill elderscale wurm, followed by burning you. however, chord of calling for zo-zu the punisher might kill them outright if they have taken damage earlier.
against twin, i will suggest end turn chord, main phase wave or chord again. this is to force them to tap out against you. nullmage shepherd is more against torpor orb that is played against us. it is also relatively effective against affinity and boggles as it provide recurring disruption. it will be better in a elf support deck as there are more creatures to use it's ability. reclamation sage is definately faster than nullmage shepherd, but it can't deal with torpor orb and is a 1 time activation. melira, sylvok outcast is included in case they use inkmoth nexus against us.
if we are playing kessig wolf run, i will recommend 1 slot for inkmoth nexus as alternate win con when opponent have gain infinite life and such.
elimination creature can come in the form of duplicant. thinking of more useful cards. will add on the list once i found them.
another idea i have is token producing creature with beastmaster ascension. not sure how well it works, read it in commander thread as a win con. it can be useful if we have haste right after a wave and instant kill. have not thought it out fully, open this up for discussion.
Hi guys, really happy to see such a new and active thread for my favorite modern deck. I've been piloting this deck for a long time both online and casually, and a few days ago I just won a tournament with it!
For me, this deck started out as a full-blown G-Wave list. All I wanted to do was jam massive g-waves on turn 3 or 4, and I didn't really have any other real win conditions (other than chord for hoof). Then, I discovered the power of e-witness/primal command. I used to only run 2 primal commands in the deck, but I quickly realized that I was winning games much more often with witness/command than I was when I was casting fat g-waves, so I started to run 4 primal commands and 3 g-waves.
After slowly realizing that (at least in my list) primal command was a much more versatile and powerful card than g-wave, I decided to go the full blown plow under route. To date, I haven't lost a competitive game of Magic when I have resolved plow under on or before turn 4 (Its pretty much game over if I resolve it turn 3 on the play, which is quite easy with this list). It completely rips the carpet out from under an opponent, and gives you 2 turns to find answers and apply pressure. Here's the list I'm currently running:
Mana Ramp:
Where I diverge a bit with my ramp is the inclusion of 3 cards I rarely see on other lists. Magus, overgrowth, and Sachi. The magus and sachi are both one ofs which I very commonly chord for. The overgrowth is flat out DEVASTATING to resolve on turn 2 or 3 with an arbor elf/magus/voyaging satyr/garruk in play.
Overgrowth:
Overgrowth isn't run in many lists I see, presumably because it costs 3 mana and doesn't "win you the game". Its effect is way better than fertile ground's if you have a way to untap mana (arbor elf/magus/garruk), and is castable on turn 2 if you played a turn 1 utopia sprawl or arbor elf. A turn 2 overgrowth, left unchecked, nearly guarantees I can cast plow under/primal command on turn 3 for the blowout (which is the goal of the deck game 1). You'd rather draw one of these bad boys late in the game than a utopia sprawl, but its obviously setting you up for some blowouts against the bounce effect of cryptic command. This is one of the few cards in this deck I would consider cutting, possibly for some elvish visionaries (I will explain why later).
Magus of the Candelabra:
Magus is great because (as far as I know) its the only 1 mana creature capable of untapping Nykthos (yay chord of calling for 1), has 2 toughness (take that electrolyze!) and his ability to untap multiple lands is very relevant. Consider the resolving primeval titan, then untapping the fetched kessig wolf run and stomping ground with magus to attack for lethal. Untapping a nykthos and a land with a utopia sprawl/overgrowth on it to net additional mana is very strong. Overall, its a consistently useful card that slots well into the toolkit of anyone running chord.
Sachi, Daughter of Seshiro:
I always feel great resolving Sachi, my legendary uncommon. My opponent always picks it up and says "what does this do?". She's a sneaky card that catches a lot of players off guard. If you're running chord, and you have 4x burning trees and 4x e-witnesses, guess what? You're running 8 shamans! Elvish visionary is also a shaman, and our new friend reclamation sage is also a shaman. If you're running Thrun (also a shaman), you can block with him then tap him to regenerate himself. Sachi will always at least tap herself for two green mana, and she instantly pays for herself if you already had 2 shamans in play. I end up cutting her against the control matchup because I bring out the burning trees for strangleroot geists, but I absolutely love her in the main board and have a hard time justifying another card over her with 10 shamans in my deck. I am heavily considering cutting the 2 overgrowths and maybe 1 chord for elvish visionaries, as visionaries are also shamans that would power up sachi.
The Spells: Chord of Calling:
I've been running 4 chords in my 60 since the first ever iteration of this list. I might be a bit biased, but I would never consider cutting these. They do so much for this deck. If I need devotion, I can chord for an eternal witness to get back my chord. It allows my sideboard to be full of sexy one of hate cards. It lets me win on turn 3 in christmas land by chording for my craterhoof. It does everything I need in a card, and all at instant speed. This card ends up finishing most of my games for me since I don't run g-wave mainboard. It wins games, it prevents me from losing games, and I really don't mind seeing 2 of them in my hand. It just means I can blow the first one on an arbor elf or a magus of the candelabra before I have to play safe with my second! I really don't know many mono green lists which wouldn't want to run 2 or more chords if they have access to them. Its arguably the best card in the deck.
Primal Command:
The versatility of this card is back breaking. The E-witness/primal command land lock flat out wins games, so I can keep a lot of hands which only get me to 5 mana if they include a primal command. Don't forget about the modes which aren't "search for creature" and "put non-creature permanent on top of library". Shuffling the graveyard of a living end player into their library is devastating. Gaining 7 life against aggro decks is far more relevant than setting them back a land/draw. This card does everything I need and more. IMO, this card should be at LEAST a 3 of in any deck that runs eternal witness.
Plow Under:
What an obscure, beautiful little card this is. In a perfect game you resolve this card turn 3 on the play, leaving your opponent with no lands in play and 2 lands on top of their deck. How do you lose from there? Sure, its not putting permanents into play and attempting to finish the game like a G-wave is, but its setting you up for a very favorable game with a toolkit deck that can dig for answers against a depleted opponent. G-wave is much flashier, but in my opinion is less consistent in a list that runs 11 non-permanents. This is one of the newest cards to make it into my list, but I already love the feel of it. I almost feel like a mono-green control player. I went 2-2 or 3-1 in the 3 tournaments I mainboarded g-wave over plow under, and I split at the final table my first week with the plow under list. I think my list likes this card more than others since it is definitely a toolkit deck, decks which are all out on the g-wave plan would need to cut a few cards to make plow under a good replacement option. This card gives me much more action than g-wave does in G1 against control and midrange decks, but I side them out for g-waves in the aggro matchup. A zoo/affinity player really doesn't mind a plow under as much as a control player does.
The Toolkit:
With 4 chords and 4 primal commands, I can almost always find the answer I need. The toolkit is less apparent in the main 60, as the only cards that really feels like they belong to the toolkit are the reclamation sage and the genesis hydra (to a lesser extent, the magus of the candelabra, primeval titans, sachi, and craterhoof can be considered part of the toolkit). That said, my sideboard is full of answers for games 2 and 3.
Spellskite:
Comes in against control, jund, twin, and any list I expect is running path. This chard is especially good when chorded for, it can do anything from steal a splinter twin to shut down a kikki-pod combo.
Elderscale Wurm:
There are a huge number of decks which cannot beat this card, including ours. Comes in against affinity, zoo, merfolk, and the mirror.
Vexing Shusher:
Pretty straightforward selection. Control is our biggest problem, and this card is amazing against control. Try not to rush these out, its best when you resolve them the same turn as your big devastating spell so the control player can't just bolt it on their turn.
Viridian Zealot:
As far as I'm aware, this is the best answer to torpor orb and it provides 2 devotion while doing it. Orb hoses this deck, so the SB needs something to answer it.
Scavenging Ooze:
Gains life, laughs at goyf/snapcaster/reanimation, and eventually becomes a threat on its own in some matchups. I'm considering running one of these mainboard.
Phyrexian Revoker:
Shuts off walkers and combo pieces. Liliana is a big problem for my list, but this card would probably be the first cut I would make from my toolkit, perhaps for an acidic ooze.
Reclamation Sage:
I prefer this to acidic ooze in the mainboard for 2 reasons. Its a shaman (yay sachi), and it costs less mana. I think I might need one more of these in the sideboard.
Genesis Hydra:
I did not expect this card to be so good when it was first announced. I've only played with it for about a week, but DAMN does he do work. Only really good in non g-wave versions of this list, for obvious reasons. Control almost never gets value for countering this card, as the ability resolves whether or not it enters the battlefield. I'm honestly considering running one more of this card in the main deck.
Summary/Potential Changes:
This list is stupidly fun to play. I feel like a control player in mono green! I can find answers, quickly apply pressure, and make massive tempo plays with plow under/primal command which most decks cannot recover from. If I were to make any changes to this deck, it would likely be to the toolkit or to try and find room for elvish visionaries in the main board. The only red cards in my 75 are sarkhan vol which I bring in with the 3 g-waves, and the kessig wolf run. It kinda feels like I'm missing an opportunity to cash in on some sweet red creatures. Magus of the moon and zealous conscripts seem like solid toolkit options. Thrun could also end up finding a spot in my sideboard (guess what? He's a shaman!). If I had the money for fetchlands, I would definitely run a copy of inkmoth nexus for fetching when primeval titan hits the field. Finally, I would love for someone to suggest cards to cut for Elvish Visionary! With Sachi in play, visionaries become crazy good.
i'd consider running the full playset of garruks and plow unders though. if i was running your version i'd be aiming for turn 3 plow under every single game, and having 4 means that even if one gets thoughtseized, you're more likely to have another in hand.
other than that it seems really good. have you considered 1x elesh norn, grand cenobite as a chord-able metagame crusher? i've been liking it so far.
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Thanks! I'll consider cutting one of the primal commands or chords for the 4th plow under, as like I said in my post, Its really really hard to lose if you can resolve that card. I might be undervaluing it.
For the 4th garruk, I've always been worried about drawing a 2-garruk opening hand. In my current list, there really aren't any cards (other than prime time and nykthos) that I am not happy to have 2 of in my opening hand. Do you all feel like the 4th garruk is just a neccesity due to how powerful he is in this list?
As to the elesh norn, I would be super happy to chord of calling for her, but would be most concerned about being able to cast her if I draw into her. I don't own any fetchlands, so I would most likely need to replace a few forests with temple gardens and my overgrowth's with fertile grounds to support her. I'm not sure if even that would be enough to consistently cast double white if she ends up in my hand. It would certainly open up a few more sideboard cards for the toolkit though (kataki, thalia) and even a few cool mainboard cards (knight of the reliquary, resto angel). Its definitely something worth testing online before I go out and buy her in paper!
Thanks! I'll consider cutting one of the primal commands or chords for the 4th plow under, as like I said in my post, Its really really hard to lose if you can resolve that card. I might be undervaluing it.
For the 4th garruk, I've always been worried about drawing a 2-garruk opening hand. In my current list, there really aren't any cards (other than prime time and nykthos) that I am not happy to have 2 of in my opening hand. Do you all feel like the 4th garruk is just a neccesity due to how powerful he is in this list?
As to the elesh norn, I would be super happy to chord of calling for her, but would be most concerned about being able to cast her if I draw into her. I don't own any fetchlands, so I would most likely need to replace a few forests with temple gardens and my overgrowth's with fertile grounds to support her. I'm not sure if even that would be enough to consistently cast double white if she ends up in my hand. It would certainly open up a few more sideboard cards for the toolkit though (kataki, thalia) and even a few cool mainboard cards (knight of the reliquary, resto angel). Its definitely something worth testing online before I go out and buy her in paper!
a few times i've cast garruk, untapped nykthos, made a bunch of mana, cast a second garruk (ditched the first), untapped the lands again and made a bunch more mana.
take that as you will; but i've used a double garruk hand to ramp into some rather huge Genesis waves while playing the deck. it's not perfect but at least a second garruk in your hand does something. the new legend rule kind of helps us in that regard.
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I think yours ideas are really close to mine, I really like how you build your deck. If you see my earlier posts, I was always supporting Command route, I am currently playing 2 sb plow unders, however playing them in a maindeck - I am totally blown by it! It might be really good idea. Remember, plow into witness into plow is still an option
Magus of a Candalabra is an interesting choice. It works really well with nykthos, overgrowth and utopia sprawls, looks good as a 1 off.
About Sachi - I considered her, however I cut BTEs so moved away from this idea. Can be quite good.
When are you boarding Genesis Wave/Sarkhan Vol/Strangleroots? For what matchups?
@CurdBros
What is a minimum number of elves to run Elvish Archdruid? I liked its engine, however is 4 arbor elves, 4 elvish visionary, 3 archdruid enought or not enought?
I feel like the elf version is going to catch a lot of hate for other deck that are running Damping Matrix for twin/pod or Anger of the Gods for Zoo/Affinity. Anyone run into these SB problems?
Hey Cranial! Sorry it took me a sec to respond to this. To answer your question, not really. Damping Matrix/Torpor Orb can usually be handled pretty easily with a Nature's Claim and/or Beast Within (of which I run two of each in the board). Dampining Matrix is generally not that big of a deal for me (as it doesn't affect most of my deck). Torpor Orb can be worse because it effect's Primeval Titan, Elvish Visionary, and Coiling Oracle. The speed of the deck actually can help play an important role here. Most people only run 1-2 Torpor Orb's; so by the time they get it on the board they are generally well behind. Don't get me wrong, there have been times where the opponent gets it in their opening hand and I don't have a way to deal with it in my opening hand. In those, I don't get to draw as many cards and I do have to play around it (this is where the value of planeswalkers come in very handy Fortunately neither devastates me and the game can still be won effectively with them in play.
Anger of the Gods actually is far worse for anyone running Birds, Nobles, Mystics, Joraga Treespeakers etc....basically anyone running multiple mana dorks as their ramp. This is of course because Anger of the Gods doesn't kill a Utopia Sprawl. Also, Anger can be a little "slow" against our build. You typically can ramp before they can get there. Also, in build where Anger or Pyroclasm is a pretty good chance of being played (UWR Control, R/G Tron, etc.); I generally play a slightly different game (will Chord for Ezuri to regenerate, etc.) Anger and Pyroclasm are actually part of the reason I went back to the Arbor Elf/Utopia Sprawl option (rather than using Elvish Mystic, Harbinger, Birds, etc.)
I will definitely keep an eye out and let you know if I'm running into issues with either; but thus far they have not been too detrimental to the success of the deck.
ok so guys. the discussion here is very positive. cheers for those responses earlier.
my thoughts:
elderscale wurm: i'm playing scapeshift at the next PTQ, and i'm looking at my deck right now, struggling to think what beats elderscale wurm except for remanding your chord, or bouncing the wurm with a cryptic command. other than those options, my deck is dead to wurm. that's pretty decent. excellent, even. i either have the bounce or i lose the game. pretty powerful.
same goes for splinter twin. on turn four, they tap out for splinter twin on their dude, safe in the knowledge that you're playing mono green and you can't counter their spell. you tap out for chord in response to them casting Twin, and fetch elderscale wurm, and then what do they do? they don't have the removal, they only run 2 cryptics. seems strong. only downside is they might be running a singleton pact of negation or dispel which could catch us off guard. but if they rush their combo against "the green deck" and we have enough mana for chord, we'll win.
seems excellent guys. maindeckable, even. hadn't considered it until now, but it's strong.
other cards: spellskite - i think it's strongly maindeckable. most other combo decks will be rushing for their combo game 1. you can chord for this guy as early as turn 2, and redirect triggers, splinter twin, arcbound ravager counters, karn liberated activations, all kinds of shenanigans. i think we strongly need one game 1 when everyone's trying to rush the combo. it'll take people by surprise, and that wins games. linvala, keeper of silence i still think maindeckable, just like pod decks keep her in. she just gives you a free win vs. twin/pod, if they can't find the removal. maybe she just stalls them for 2 turns and in the meantime you win. a 3/4 flyer is decent as well. she's better than resto angel for sure. i can see her as a sideboard option though, that's fine. isn't twin our weakest matchup? elesh norn, grand cenobite - in response to your comments, yes i'd consider dropping craterhoof for Norn. she does craterhoof's job fairly well and also wraths their board. she can also stop Splinter Twin in its tracks, destroy pod, jund, and others. if they have the removal it becomes difficult, that's true. so maybe the deck runs both. thrun, the last troll - i still really like this guy. he's devotion you can't bolt or kill in response to activating nykthos (the ability checks devotion on resolution) and he blocks everything, forever. against quick decks he's a road block. against control (one of the hardest matchups) he swings in effectively for free. sure he's not flashy. but he's hard to kill. if our opponents cast anger of the gods he's still going to stick around afterwards. perhaps he's sideboard only, but i like the fact that once he's on the board, he's effectively "banked" devotion that they can't really get rid of.
inferno titan - i see what you're saying. i would consider just swapping him our for wurmcoil engine as a replacement. i was just thinking "what's the single most damage dealing creature for 6 mana or less that just wins the game if they let me untap with it". inferno titan is that creature. wurmcoil doesn't care about colour fixing and it stabilises very well. flashing it in off a chord could probably net you enough advantage to win anyway. seems decent either way.
and we may still want 1x craterhoof in there for the "i win" moment. but it's unclear. i think kessig wolf run triggers should be enough, so i'll be running a list without craterhoof to test the differences.
yeah that actually seems a lot better. i chose to leave Thrun out of the mix. i'll test a few times with him in and with him out. if i find myself needing or wanting to chord him out with any regularity, i'll suggest to the group that we make a maindeck spot for him.
I really like the removal of Inferno Titan (the double Red seemed like it could be an issue at times with other double White creatures); and to be honest I like all of the changes you've made here! I agree that Spellskite is a great card that can be main-decked in a midrange-style build.
And you read my mind on Burning-Tree Shaman I've been testing with it for about 3 days now (although I haven't got enough matches in with it to post it to the deck); but it seems SUPER promising (given one of my few "tough" match-ups is Twin). Great post and seems like every change was a positive one!
This is a great version of the mid-range style of Deovtion list. I like it's flexibility quite a bit. What you give up in speed you make up with in disruption. Let us know how it does!
What is a minimum number of elves to run Elvish Archdruid? I liked its engine, however is 4 arbor elves, 4 elvish visionary, 3 archdruid enought or not enought?
I've never tested with less than 12 other elves outside of Archdruid...I think it depends on the speed of the deck and how quickly you draw cards. Obviously, Archdruid is extremely powerful with even only 1 elf on board; but he become crazy good with two elves on board or more (as he then taps for 3+ mana, etc.). In all honesty; in most games you will already have an Arbor Elf and/or Visionary on board when you cast him; so you should be good most games. I would suggest using another elf if you can of course, but if you have other options you like; by all means try it out! I've never tested with only 8 other elves though (10 if you count the other two Archdruids). I hate giving too much specific advice on issues/ideas I haven't tested as I believe you can't truly know how something plays until you've tested it. I've seen too many ideas "on paper" perform poorly in reality to say with any certainty that you will consistently have plenty of elves to make it worth it. You SHOULD though. (as it really only takes one other elf to make him worth it).
On that note, I will be testing a bit more tonight and will let everyone know how it goes! It's super important (as Gnuhouse has discussed in the past) that we provide not only our deck ideas within this primer; but also how the deck performs in the meta, in testing etc. This way, we can all benefit from the work all of us Green Mages are putting in and we can continue to develop "core" ideas and philosophies of Green Devotion.
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To begin, I think you are right Pedros that we have to compare apples to apples. Any ramp deck gets kinda broken down into "the engine" and "the win-cons" and there is no point in comparing the engine to the win-cons. I consider Chord of Calling to fall more into the "Win-Con" side of things (although it is extremely versatile) so I will compare it there.
1. When I first began using Chord of Calling (and at the time I ran a full set); I too had a much more "toolbox" version of the deck. After tons of testing, however, I found that often times I had devoted so much of the deck to the "toolbox" that (a) it slowed the deck down and greatly reduced two of the most powerful advantages of the deck, it's speed and it's consistency. Chord has some amazingly great functions though. These include, (a) fetching your win-con when you have a ton of mana (i.e. grabbing a Craterhoof, Prime Time, etc.)...essentially it acts as multiple copies of your win-cons, (b) to tutor up a great sideboard answer (this is kind of self-explanatory and does take advantage of the "toolbox" nature of the card) basically just as before' it can act as more copies of one specific hate card, (c) to help you "get back in the game"...often times you can use it to find an Elvish Archdruid (in my case), and Eternal Witness (in Pedro's build) to grab something important back, or even a Coiling Oracle to draw a card and/or get another land and elf on the board, or (d) to perform some "combat tricks" (i.e. to chord up an Elvish Archdruid to protect two 1/1's from an Electrolyze that was cast, to Chord for an Ezuri to Regenerate a few elves, to chord into a Prime Time when they attack with their 4/4, or to simply give a creature "quasi-haste" by casting it at the end of their turn.
There are a ton of great reasons to utilize Chord of Calling in a devotion build; but I found that I had to be careful not to count on it too much. I found that if I wanted to play a full-on toolbox deck; I was better off just playing Pod. I found that Devotion/Ramp decks get a good part of their power out of outpacing / going over the top of their opponents and getting to an overwhelming board state.
2. Purklepuff, you are right that Ezuri makes little sense in a build unless there is an ample number of elves. I run it as a 1-of (in the past was a 2-of) due to his play-ability and synergy with the other cards in the deck. You are absolutely right that in most cases you want to use great "stand alone" cards like Arbor Elf, Primeval Titan and Garruk Wildspeaker (as you can never truly be certain the synergy will arise); but there are some instances (especially when you have ample card draw and the ability to tutor) that synergy can also be a means to an end as well. I do agree, however, that the cards chosen have to be valuable on their own as well (i.e. I would never simply play a straight up 3/3 elf just to have another elf in the build). The elf idea actually arose simply due to the fact that the best "ramping" and "card draw" creatures I found were elves ... Ezuri just allowed for another potential avenue to win.)
3. Pedros, you are right on the money about not being able to splash 3 additional colors. Even with fetch lands, full sets of both Abundant Growth and Utopia Sprawl, and Cavern of Souls; the speed of the deck makes it difficult to get all of the colors you need as quickly as you need them. I would LOVE to play white in board; but my version plays mainly green with a splash of both red and blue. Blue is almost specifically for Coiling Oracle (although it does allow for some sideboard options as the meta shifts). To answer your questions, I would say that I utilize "blue" via my first Utopia Sprawl approximately 80% of the time (as Coiling Oracle typically comes before Kessig Wolf Run). I would say I fetch Kessig Wolf Run / Nykthos Shrine to nyx with Prime Time approximately 50% of the time. Sometimes it's Kessig/Stomping Ground (if I don't have the red), sometimes it's Kessig/Cavern (if playing against control and I have something in my hand I want to cast the next turn), and sometimes it could even be Nykthos / Forest (in extremely rare/odd situations or if I already have everything else on board). They come into play tapped; so if I already have a Nykthos down, I won't grab another.
I haven't had any real issues with fixing mana. There have been a few games...approximately 10%....where I either can't cast Coiling Oracle on turn two or can't cast two Oracles in a row if I have them in my hand. I most likely will add a fourth Misty Rainforest to the deck to further aid fixing (as I can't recall the exact reason why I only run four...it literally may be because I only had three at the time however at this point the deck runs extremely smoothly. I LOVE the idea of adding white; I'm just not sure it's possible.
3. Without trying to argue too much (as I see merit in both sides of this discussion and do think there is a "happy medium") I would state the following:
(a) In my opinion (and this is only my opinion) green devotion builds do require a healthy amount of card draw. The synergy created by drawing cards actually helps you more quickly ramp (via both devotion and "traditional ramping" and overwhelm the opponent. It's easy when ramping to run out of cards, draw only your "ramping" guys and/or even draw only your win cons...card draw helps you "feed the beast" and helps smooth out your lines.
(b) Purklepuff is right (as are others) that we (devotion brewers that is) can sometimes get a little too focused on devotion count. I have done this in the past as well. Once you've reached 4+ devotion, you already have a good advantage. I have never been a huge fan of Burning-Tree Emissary (however I do understand how it's ETB trigger can work in some cases) and feel that it is one of those cards that doesn't have a large enough effect/value (in Modern) to be used despite it's two green symbols. The same is true of several cards. I even stopped using Wistful Selkie because I found having the card a turn earlier was more important than the extra 2-devotion. Filling the board with green symbols isn't goal number one; it will happen naturally in the right build(s).
(c) I don't think it's crazy to run only 3 Eternal Witness as she does require something to be in the graveyard to obtain the full value from her the first time she is cast. I of course am on the "outside" of the Eternal Witness argument, however (as I don't have her in my build). This is NOT because I think it is a poor card. On the contrary, she is amazing; and if I played Primal Command I would definitely have her in my build as well. I've just found that in my particular build; I'm better off simply drawing a card with a 2-mana creature vs. getting one back from my library for 3-mana. I do understand the amazing power Eternal Witness can have off of a Genesis Wave; and I wouldn't have given up that effect if I hadn't found something similar. I generally will hit enough "draw triggers" off of a wave to hit the creature I want and/or a Chord of Calling that will allow me to use my new lands and creatures to tutor for it at instant speed. I truly believe that in most cases Genesis Wave should be treated as a "win-con" (i.e. you should be able to win the turn you cast it) and Eternal Witness can go a long way to doing so. I'm not against using Eternal Witness at all...in the Primal Command versions of the deck I think she is a perfect 3-4 of. Of course, if the lock is one of your main win-cons...you'll most likely want to run four.
(d) Elesh Norn is a spectacular card. I look at her more as a "Win-Con" than a "hate" card (although she pretty much encompasses both but if I ran white I would run a 1-of in my mainboard as well. It's a great win-con. It doesn't work in my build; but I can definitely see why you like it! Spellskite is also a great hate card and can really hamper a lot of decks. I'm not as high on Linvala and Inferno Titan.
Many of these discussions also boil down to play-style. Green Devotion is going to be a "Teir 1" archetype in my opinion; however just as there are slight iterations of other top-tier decks; the same will be true of Green Devotion. While I prefer a version that is a little more on the "aggressive" end (although I feel there are ways to do this while still maintaining card advantage); I can totally understand how someone else may want to play a turn or two slower and have more disruption. Each type of deck will have slightly different success against different decks (and can sideboard appropriately). In the end, we are all looking for the same thing; bringing Green Devotion to the forefront of Modern and letting people how awesome it is to play! The best things we can do is present the pros and cons of each "archetype" of Green Devotion so that players can choose which they prefer. GnuHouse and Pedro (fortunately for the rest of us) have already done so...and deserve a HUGE thanks for doing so!
Keep up the great work and great discussion guys! I'll try to do my best to present the pro's and cons of my particular build to any and all who ask as well.
As an aside, Pedros, to answer your question, I only run 3 Elvish Archdruid because I don't care to see it until turn 2 or three and it's not entirely necessary to my being able to cast my win-cons. Don't get me wrong, it's a powerful card. Being able to tap for 3+ mana most turns it's down while pumping my draw/mana dorks up is GREAT. I just found that I didn't find myself needing it any more at 3 than I did at 4. It is just one of those things that you get a "feel" for while testing a bunch. I'm not against running four, I just think the deck runs slightly more smoothly with only three Archdruids. There are some games you won't even want/need him (if you begin to ramp faster than he is even necessary for). But the games where he is useful, he is SUPER useful (as the opponent has to deal with him).
Thanks a lot for your answers!
If you would run Elesh Norn in the MD, would you cut Craterhoof Behemoth or run both?
Can you tell us how do you sideboard? I am mostly interested how everyone is choosing wich cards to sideboard out, as what to bring is almost given.
BTW am still interested in Elderscale Wurm. As I understand you use it vs combo to not loose. Most combos however have some bounce (cryptic command, void snare, etc). Do you try to Chord for it in response, or want to chord as fast as possible?
I am still thinking if it is possible to run 4 colors. Red only for Kessig. Blue only for Oracle (I felt love with this card, when I went elf into sprawl on blue Garruk untap oracle into land into visionary.) White only for sideboard (linvala, kataki, elesh norn, mindcensor, eidolon of rhetoric, stony silence, path to exile). I think Cavern of Souls and Abundant Growth might be what would make it possible, complemented by fetchlands and utopia sprawl, however not sure if needed. Thats why I am asking about those Elderscale Wurms, Magus of the Moon, Silent Arbiter, etc. How do you like them in matchups they are for?
To be honest, if I ran White, I'd probably run 1-of of both Craterhoof and Elesh Norn. They are both equally powerful game enders; and Chord of Calling gives you the choice (in most cases) as to which you prefer for the specific match. Charlesching is right though that we have to be certain that any splash of color does not slow us down at all. One of the biggest advantages the deck has is its speed; so we don't want to take that away if we can help it. The blue for Coiling Oracle (which often can actually speed up the deck and the red for Kessig (which isn't needed in turns one or two) has been fine. Since you mainly discussing the sideboard, however, it may be dooable. I'm excited to see where you take the idea!
As far as Elderscale Wurm is concerned; while it is there mainly to "not lose"; if given enough time; we can pretty much do any amount of damage needed. Also, it's still a 7/7 Trampler. While you want to get to it as quickly as possible; obviously Chord can put you in a position where you have to make choices. If you have a choice of Chording for a Craterhoof to win the game; obviously you probably want to choose that. In any other situation, however, you have to choose whether you want to give you the "back up" of Elderscale Wurm or go for Primeval Titan to keep the pressure one. Traditionally, I keep the pressure on; however there are several match-ups where Elderscale Wurm is just devastating to the opponent. In particular, Scapeshift, RDW / Burn, and Storm have major difficulties with Elderscale Wurm. In these match-ups you simply want to ramp as quickly as you can to get him out. Scapeshift may have some form of "bounce" spell in some instances; but it still forces them to use it prior to Scapeshifting (which costs them more mana). Affinity has equal difficulty (as most Affinity builds don't run adequate removal for it). While Affinity is not our toughest match up in the world; it's nice to land a E.Wurm when you have 5 life left
In terms of sideboarding; it would be a HUGE answer to talk about how I board for every match-up; but there are a few steadfast rules when I sideboard:
1. You really don't want to sideboard much in any match-up. One of the worst things you can do is slow this deck down and keeping it from putting pressure on the opponent. When the opponent has to use its resources to play on the defensive; you've got a huge advantage. You want to be able to continually put pressure on the opponent and force them to answer things. A majority of match ups simply don't require much side boarding at all.
2. Having said this, there are cards that can be very hurtful to us. The main two are Torpor Orb and Damping Matrix. For this reason, I often will include a mixture of 3-4 cards (depending on the match-up) of Nature's Claims and Beast Within's. This just ensures we have an answer if and when the opponent plays what they think will be their "big hoser".
3. In many match-ups, I will replace one win-con with an Elderscale Wurm (as discussed above) as this has no real effect on the speed of the deck. While it is more of a "not lose" card; you can't lose! ha.
4. Pod, Affinity, Boggles, Storm, Tron, and other match-ups where the opponent has very little interaction/removal for us are heavily in our favor. Very little is needed in terms of sideboarding as we often are faster and go well over the top of them. Some are downright beatings
5. Our toughest match ups are Control and Twin (Control to a lesser extent). These are the match ups we side the most in for.
6. Vs. Twin we literally have to race them game and overwhelm them in games 2&3 while keeping them from the combo long enough to win in (as they typically will disrupt one or two things to push you back a turn). I haven't quite fully committed to tact I want to take in games two and three yet. Because I already have Nature's Claim and Beast Within in the board; I obviously have tools to keep them off of the combo...but I'd honestly rather not concern myself with them getting the combo (and simply beat them through the combo). I feel like the deck runs better when it's not trying to react; but obviously that can't be done in 100% of cases. It's important (I think), however, to make it as proactive as it can possibly be in every match-up. Silent Arbiter allows us to beat them regardless how many copies they make, and obviously spellskite can hold them off while also being a Kessig Wolf Run target. I've been trying to think of other cards that may help us in the same way (and am trying out a few); as often times our best defense is a good offense. If they have to block to stay alive; it begins to change how they play. Obviously both Choke or Boil (whichever I end up using) also puts them far behind us (and gives us the time needed to win the "race"). So as you can see, with Nature's Claim, Choke/Boil, Beast Within, Silent Arbiter, and Spellskite coming in; a lot has to come out. In twin match-ups; I usually will side out Ezuri, the Genesis Waves, Nissa Worldwaker, one Elvish Archdruid, and one Elvish Visionary. The main win-con vs Twin normally becomes Prime Time (as they often times can't deal with Kessig Wolf Run); although the Walkers will take over any game that goes past turn 4.
7. Vs. Control I typically side out all three Genesis Waves, one Chord of Calling, and go for a "beat down" strategy using my Boil/Chokes, Summoning Trap, and my creatures. Cavern of Souls is EXTREMELY good here. One card that has also been especially strong against Control (as well as Rock) has been Nissa Worldwaker. Both planeswalkers are good against control (and I'd say approximately 1/3 of my control match-ups are won with them); but Nissa has been especially good in these match-ups. She just puts so many threats out and represents so much ramp that once down, control decks have almost no effect way to deal with her. She keeps "plussing" while making more 4/4's and can end up killing in one "swoop" at any moment. I've especially liked Nissa Worldwaker against the grindier match-ups (such as Control, Jund, and Rock) and they seem to be where she shines. While of course she can help make a huge Wave or Chord in other match-ups; her versatility is part of what makes her powerful. One of the bigger board decisions I am currently deciding on is whether the Summoning Trap should just be another Cavern of Souls (proactive vs. reactive). Cavern is more practive; however Summoning Trap can be a blow out if you hit one of your bigger creatures. This, I feel will simply take more testing (so I can get a better guage on how many games and how long the Trap stays in my hand).
8. Some heavy black-based decks (Rock, Jund, etc.) (with Thoughtseizes, Inquisitions, tons of removal, tons of land destruction etc.) can also be longer matches than most (as they are basically control decks in another fashion). These seem to be growing in popularity. One of the biggest weaknesses I've found with these decks is that they expect a lion's share of the damage to come from Tarmogoyf and Scavenging Ooze (which they typically play 4-ofs). By siding in my own Ooze and Wheel of Sun and moon; I often times can keep their Goyfs and Oozes 2/3 or less and they can't deal enough damage before I can overwhelm them. Between that and the walkers (which tend to be very strong in these match-ups); these decks generally are not one of our tougher match ups.
These are kind of the "bigger ideas" and/or general rules for boarding with the deck. I don't want to go too long outlining every match-up available in Modern, as I don't want to waste everyone's time...and I don't mean to insinuate that this is the "perfect sideboard" for the deck either. I'm sure there is room for improvement. I will make sure to write down my sideboarding (what comes in what goes out) in each match of my testing so I can present a more thorough sideboard "plan" against each specific deck I've played against in an area where those who want to read it can but those who don't wish to don't have to waste time reading it.
looking back at chord of calling, we can add some green silver bullet as mentioned above without going into other colour. this will ensure speed and consistency as well as help in our devotion.
my thoughts:
elderscale wurm: i'm playing scapeshift at the next PTQ, and i'm looking at my deck right now, struggling to think what beats elderscale wurm except for remanding your chord, or bouncing the wurm with a cryptic command. other than those options, my deck is dead to wurm. that's pretty decent. excellent, even. i either have the bounce or i lose the game. pretty powerful.
same goes for splinter twin. on turn four, they tap out for splinter twin on their dude, safe in the knowledge that you're playing mono green and you can't counter their spell. you tap out for chord in response to them casting Twin, and fetch elderscale wurm, and then what do they do? they don't have the removal, they only run 2 cryptics. seems strong. only downside is they might be running a singleton pact of negation or dispel which could catch us off guard. but if they rush their combo against "the green deck" and we have enough mana for chord, we'll win.
seems excellent guys. maindeckable, even. hadn't considered it until now, but it's strong.
other cards:
spellskite - i think it's strongly maindeckable. most other combo decks will be rushing for their combo game 1. you can chord for this guy as early as turn 2, and redirect triggers, splinter twin, arcbound ravager counters, karn liberated activations, all kinds of shenanigans. i think we strongly need one game 1 when everyone's trying to rush the combo. it'll take people by surprise, and that wins games.
linvala, keeper of silence i still think maindeckable, just like pod decks keep her in. she just gives you a free win vs. twin/pod, if they can't find the removal. maybe she just stalls them for 2 turns and in the meantime you win. a 3/4 flyer is decent as well. she's better than resto angel for sure. i can see her as a sideboard option though, that's fine. isn't twin our weakest matchup?
elesh norn, grand cenobite - in response to your comments, yes i'd consider dropping craterhoof for Norn. she does craterhoof's job fairly well and also wraths their board. she can also stop Splinter Twin in its tracks, destroy pod, jund, and others. if they have the removal it becomes difficult, that's true. so maybe the deck runs both.
thrun, the last troll - i still really like this guy. he's devotion you can't bolt or kill in response to activating nykthos (the ability checks devotion on resolution) and he blocks everything, forever. against quick decks he's a road block. against control (one of the hardest matchups) he swings in effectively for free. sure he's not flashy. but he's hard to kill. if our opponents cast anger of the gods he's still going to stick around afterwards. perhaps he's sideboard only, but i like the fact that once he's on the board, he's effectively "banked" devotion that they can't really get rid of.
inferno titan - i see what you're saying. i would consider just swapping him our for wurmcoil engine as a replacement. i was just thinking "what's the single most damage dealing creature for 6 mana or less that just wins the game if they let me untap with it". inferno titan is that creature. wurmcoil doesn't care about colour fixing and it stabilises very well. flashing it in off a chord could probably net you enough advantage to win anyway. seems decent either way.
that leaves me with a reduced toolbox of only 4 creatures:
1x spellskite
1x linvala, keeper of secrets
1x elesh norn
1x elderscale wurm (even adds devotion. decent!)
and we may still want 1x craterhoof in there for the "i win" moment. but it's unclear. i think kessig wolf run triggers should be enough, so i'll be running a list without craterhoof to test the differences.
now in the sideboard:
1x courser of kruphix gains a million life when you Wave
1x wurmcoil engine
1x shriekmaw
1x burning-tree shaman (chord-able anti twin tech)
yeah that actually seems a lot better. i chose to leave Thrun out of the mix. i'll test a few times with him in and with him out. if i find myself needing or wanting to chord him out with any regularity, i'll suggest to the group that we make a maindeck spot for him.
elderscale wurm
nullmage shepherd
spellskite
burning-tree shaman
melira, sylvok outcast
acidic slime
scavenging ooze
dosan the falling leaf
I am listing more of the green solution compared to other solution as I want to stay true to green devotion. feel free to add on the list of solution we can have.
good catch. i was rushing my description and missed that one.
we had a "JUDGE!" moment a few days ago where we needed to know when devotion gets checked on activated/triggered abilities. (on resolution) and i just translated that into nykthos which was, of course, incorrect.
another sideboard option: kataki, war's wage
Yeah it is really powerful thing, might try it out as I am interested in it. However my question is can we chord for it vs twin or storm? Problem is that they have ways of interacting with either counterspells, bounce or burn, so we cant goldfish... You need 10 mana to chord for wurm, if you have that much mana you would either genesis wave hoping for a rebuy or bounce a land with primal command. I found that it is possible to chord for Linvala / Eidolon of Rhetoric vs those decks in response to a combo, as it is easier to have more mana. Vs Twin I would rather try to have silent arbiter or flametongue kavu or spellskite if we stay without white, and vs storm reclamation sage / scavenging ooze and try to distrupt combo that way.
Dont get me wrong, if I have wurm I would still play it in those matchups as a superior choice of hate, so in case I draw it / dont get distrupted I can put it into play. However having something cheaper would be awsome to have.
Vs Scapeshift, a deck that goldfishes around turn ~5-6 (in this matchup not paining yourself it crucial, as staying above 18 means they need 8 lands to combo off), it is very powerful answer, which similary can be suplemented by other stuff like Plow Under (non-white option), Magus of the Moon(red option) or Aven Mindcensor (white option). Even spellskite is good, as they cant kill us out of 7 lands with this on board.
Also as I am playing summoning trap, I love putting something huge vs twin or scapeshift, something that either kill them next turn (primeval titan) or stops them from comboing off.
Courser of Krupnix - is awsome sideboard card, in a 1) grindy matchups 2) lightning bolt matchups 3) matchups where life is important. I liked it so much I started playing 2-3 in a main, suplementing my 4 selkies and 4 witnesses. It is a card that is helping our strategy (more mana for devotion, hard to kill body, digging for nykthos), so dont hate playing it in md.
Wurmcoil Engine - I really like this, awsome vs decks without path to exile or other exile effects, however I dont know if so awsome vs burn (it might be too slow), if you have problem vs burn maybe Baloth/Nylea's Disciple should be better? If not then it is much powerful option. Great thing vs Zoo (I think it is a turn slower than burn so here it is probably better), Living End, Affinity(? depends if you have other choices to slow them down), Rock, Jund, UR delver. Probably also awsome vs Scapeshift or Twin, however not sure there if needed (vs scapeshift you need > 36 life to dont die from 8 lands. vs twin life doesnt matter. Both decks have bounce / counterspells / ways to tap it).
Craterhoof Behemoth - as you said it needs testing if we need more wincons. It gets them dead, while Elesh Norn swipes a board, and Elderscale wurm protects us. However those 2 don't necessary kill your opponent. I almost always feel like I am mulliganing when I see Hoof/Elesh in my opening hand.
Shriekmaw - maybe Flametongue Cavu would be better? I understand it doesnt kill everything, however it doesn't force you going into another color?
Rest were discussed, so lets talk about others.
Nullmage shepherd is quite a good one, however maybe reclamation sage would be faster? We might not have 4 untapped creatures at the point of getting it into play, I feel it is very good however. Needs more testing if it is better or worse than stuff like Reclamation Sage.
Burning-tree shaman is very good vs twin, however it is not sure answer. They might have more life than we have. They might also combo off with pestermite. It is similar, how rakdos charm isnt sure answer vs twin.
Melira is awsome vs Infect, it is cheap and easy to fetch up. I think we are really dead to infect, however infect isnt a popular choice right now. I would probably always bring it to the site, and if I know huge croud / better players are playing it, I would make a choice of changing my sideboard. It is similar to when I played last PTQ, I heard there is 20% of affinity in a field. I disregarded it and didnt put stony silences in a board, then lost 2 sideboarded games drawing worse cards in this matchup (that were good in other matchups, but much worse vs affinity). So this is probably meta choice, in an open meta I dont think you have slot for it.
Acidic Slime - I really like this card, played it every time I could in standard, in either Junk reanimator or Bant Primespeaker, previously in red green beatdown or green beatdown. I am not sure if it is good in modern, need more testing. Problem is that 5 mana is a lot for this kind of effect. I think this is a card that the users need to tell us a lot how they use it and how this card worked. If it just killed a random mana and died to bolt, if it destroyed man land / only land of color. If it traded with relevant creature / destroyed non-land card. Needs more testing and results, I will probably try to put 1 somewhere.
Dosan the falling leaf - I am not a huge fan of this card, vs counterspells I would either Cavern of Souls/Boseiyu my relevant spell (so turn it off completely) or Summoning Trap it to blow them off (in Witness deck you have a rebuy, this way you have quite a big dig power to fetch relevant 1 off).
After thinking about non-white answers, IMO spellskite, ooze, silent arbiter, elderscale wurm, flametongue cavu, reclamation sage are a must to have. Cavu seams very good vs a lot of decks to be honest, might be better than shriekmaw in Purklefluffs version (you dont need to travel to another color that way? Need to think what you hope to kill with it and then go from it).
EDIT:
I thought Flametongue Cavu was printed in modern era. I just checked it isn't. So disregrad everything I said about him ;/
hmm... being able to cast acidic slime on turn three nearly every game does seem pretty insane. interesting sideboard strategy? or is it a maindeck strategy, feeding off slime's devotion?
for the record i think slime is a bit slow in modern. perhaps in this specific deck it becomes better. my gut says it's not the best plan. not game 1 anyway.
against twin, i will suggest end turn chord, main phase wave or chord again. this is to force them to tap out against you.
nullmage shepherd is more against torpor orb that is played against us. it is also relatively effective against affinity and boggles as it provide recurring disruption. it will be better in a elf support deck as there are more creatures to use it's ability. reclamation sage is definately faster than nullmage shepherd, but it can't deal with torpor orb and is a 1 time activation.
melira, sylvok outcast is included in case they use inkmoth nexus against us.
if we are playing kessig wolf run, i will recommend 1 slot for inkmoth nexus as alternate win con when opponent have gain infinite life and such.
elimination creature can come in the form of duplicant. thinking of more useful cards. will add on the list once i found them.
another idea i have is token producing creature with beastmaster ascension. not sure how well it works, read it in commander thread as a win con. it can be useful if we have haste right after a wave and instant kill. have not thought it out fully, open this up for discussion.
For me, this deck started out as a full-blown G-Wave list. All I wanted to do was jam massive g-waves on turn 3 or 4, and I didn't really have any other real win conditions (other than chord for hoof). Then, I discovered the power of e-witness/primal command. I used to only run 2 primal commands in the deck, but I quickly realized that I was winning games much more often with witness/command than I was when I was casting fat g-waves, so I started to run 4 primal commands and 3 g-waves.
After slowly realizing that (at least in my list) primal command was a much more versatile and powerful card than g-wave, I decided to go the full blown plow under route. To date, I haven't lost a competitive game of Magic when I have resolved plow under on or before turn 4 (Its pretty much game over if I resolve it turn 3 on the play, which is quite easy with this list). It completely rips the carpet out from under an opponent, and gives you 2 turns to find answers and apply pressure. Here's the list I'm currently running:
4x Arbor Elf
1x Magus of the Candelabra
1x Voyaging Satyr
4x Burning-Tree Emissary
1x Reclamation Sage
4x Eternal Witness
1x Sachi, Daughter of Seshiro
2x Primeval Titan
1x Craterhoof Behemoth
1x Genesis Hydra
4x Chord of Calling
4x Primal Command
3x Plow Under
Enchantments:
4x Utopia Sprawl
2x Overgrowth
Walkers:
3x Garruk Wildspeaker
Land:
1x Stomping Ground
1x Kessig Wolf Run
3x Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
15x Forest
1x Spellskite
1x Elderscale Wurm
3x Genesis Wave
1x Sarkhan Vol
1x Vexing Shusher
1x Viridian Zealot
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Phyrexian Revoker
2x Kitchen Finks
3x Strangleroot Geist
Card Breakdown
Mana Ramp:
Where I diverge a bit with my ramp is the inclusion of 3 cards I rarely see on other lists. Magus, overgrowth, and Sachi. The magus and sachi are both one ofs which I very commonly chord for. The overgrowth is flat out DEVASTATING to resolve on turn 2 or 3 with an arbor elf/magus/voyaging satyr/garruk in play.
Overgrowth:
Overgrowth isn't run in many lists I see, presumably because it costs 3 mana and doesn't "win you the game". Its effect is way better than fertile ground's if you have a way to untap mana (arbor elf/magus/garruk), and is castable on turn 2 if you played a turn 1 utopia sprawl or arbor elf. A turn 2 overgrowth, left unchecked, nearly guarantees I can cast plow under/primal command on turn 3 for the blowout (which is the goal of the deck game 1). You'd rather draw one of these bad boys late in the game than a utopia sprawl, but its obviously setting you up for some blowouts against the bounce effect of cryptic command. This is one of the few cards in this deck I would consider cutting, possibly for some elvish visionaries (I will explain why later).
Magus of the Candelabra:
Magus is great because (as far as I know) its the only 1 mana creature capable of untapping Nykthos (yay chord of calling for 1), has 2 toughness (take that electrolyze!) and his ability to untap multiple lands is very relevant. Consider the resolving primeval titan, then untapping the fetched kessig wolf run and stomping ground with magus to attack for lethal. Untapping a nykthos and a land with a utopia sprawl/overgrowth on it to net additional mana is very strong. Overall, its a consistently useful card that slots well into the toolkit of anyone running chord.
Sachi, Daughter of Seshiro:
I always feel great resolving Sachi, my legendary uncommon. My opponent always picks it up and says "what does this do?". She's a sneaky card that catches a lot of players off guard. If you're running chord, and you have 4x burning trees and 4x e-witnesses, guess what? You're running 8 shamans! Elvish visionary is also a shaman, and our new friend reclamation sage is also a shaman. If you're running Thrun (also a shaman), you can block with him then tap him to regenerate himself. Sachi will always at least tap herself for two green mana, and she instantly pays for herself if you already had 2 shamans in play. I end up cutting her against the control matchup because I bring out the burning trees for strangleroot geists, but I absolutely love her in the main board and have a hard time justifying another card over her with 10 shamans in my deck. I am heavily considering cutting the 2 overgrowths and maybe 1 chord for elvish visionaries, as visionaries are also shamans that would power up sachi.
The Spells:
Chord of Calling:
I've been running 4 chords in my 60 since the first ever iteration of this list. I might be a bit biased, but I would never consider cutting these. They do so much for this deck. If I need devotion, I can chord for an eternal witness to get back my chord. It allows my sideboard to be full of sexy one of hate cards. It lets me win on turn 3 in christmas land by chording for my craterhoof. It does everything I need in a card, and all at instant speed. This card ends up finishing most of my games for me since I don't run g-wave mainboard. It wins games, it prevents me from losing games, and I really don't mind seeing 2 of them in my hand. It just means I can blow the first one on an arbor elf or a magus of the candelabra before I have to play safe with my second! I really don't know many mono green lists which wouldn't want to run 2 or more chords if they have access to them. Its arguably the best card in the deck.
Primal Command:
The versatility of this card is back breaking. The E-witness/primal command land lock flat out wins games, so I can keep a lot of hands which only get me to 5 mana if they include a primal command. Don't forget about the modes which aren't "search for creature" and "put non-creature permanent on top of library". Shuffling the graveyard of a living end player into their library is devastating. Gaining 7 life against aggro decks is far more relevant than setting them back a land/draw. This card does everything I need and more. IMO, this card should be at LEAST a 3 of in any deck that runs eternal witness.
Plow Under:
What an obscure, beautiful little card this is. In a perfect game you resolve this card turn 3 on the play, leaving your opponent with no lands in play and 2 lands on top of their deck. How do you lose from there? Sure, its not putting permanents into play and attempting to finish the game like a G-wave is, but its setting you up for a very favorable game with a toolkit deck that can dig for answers against a depleted opponent. G-wave is much flashier, but in my opinion is less consistent in a list that runs 11 non-permanents. This is one of the newest cards to make it into my list, but I already love the feel of it. I almost feel like a mono-green control player. I went 2-2 or 3-1 in the 3 tournaments I mainboarded g-wave over plow under, and I split at the final table my first week with the plow under list. I think my list likes this card more than others since it is definitely a toolkit deck, decks which are all out on the g-wave plan would need to cut a few cards to make plow under a good replacement option. This card gives me much more action than g-wave does in G1 against control and midrange decks, but I side them out for g-waves in the aggro matchup. A zoo/affinity player really doesn't mind a plow under as much as a control player does.
The Toolkit:
With 4 chords and 4 primal commands, I can almost always find the answer I need. The toolkit is less apparent in the main 60, as the only cards that really feels like they belong to the toolkit are the reclamation sage and the genesis hydra (to a lesser extent, the magus of the candelabra, primeval titans, sachi, and craterhoof can be considered part of the toolkit). That said, my sideboard is full of answers for games 2 and 3.
Spellskite:
Comes in against control, jund, twin, and any list I expect is running path. This chard is especially good when chorded for, it can do anything from steal a splinter twin to shut down a kikki-pod combo.
Elderscale Wurm:
There are a huge number of decks which cannot beat this card, including ours. Comes in against affinity, zoo, merfolk, and the mirror.
Vexing Shusher:
Pretty straightforward selection. Control is our biggest problem, and this card is amazing against control. Try not to rush these out, its best when you resolve them the same turn as your big devastating spell so the control player can't just bolt it on their turn.
Viridian Zealot:
As far as I'm aware, this is the best answer to torpor orb and it provides 2 devotion while doing it. Orb hoses this deck, so the SB needs something to answer it.
Scavenging Ooze:
Gains life, laughs at goyf/snapcaster/reanimation, and eventually becomes a threat on its own in some matchups. I'm considering running one of these mainboard.
Phyrexian Revoker:
Shuts off walkers and combo pieces. Liliana is a big problem for my list, but this card would probably be the first cut I would make from my toolkit, perhaps for an acidic ooze.
Reclamation Sage:
I prefer this to acidic ooze in the mainboard for 2 reasons. Its a shaman (yay sachi), and it costs less mana. I think I might need one more of these in the sideboard.
Genesis Hydra:
I did not expect this card to be so good when it was first announced. I've only played with it for about a week, but DAMN does he do work. Only really good in non g-wave versions of this list, for obvious reasons. Control almost never gets value for countering this card, as the ability resolves whether or not it enters the battlefield. I'm honestly considering running one more of this card in the main deck.
Summary/Potential Changes:
This list is stupidly fun to play. I feel like a control player in mono green! I can find answers, quickly apply pressure, and make massive tempo plays with plow under/primal command which most decks cannot recover from. If I were to make any changes to this deck, it would likely be to the toolkit or to try and find room for elvish visionaries in the main board. The only red cards in my 75 are sarkhan vol which I bring in with the 3 g-waves, and the kessig wolf run. It kinda feels like I'm missing an opportunity to cash in on some sweet red creatures. Magus of the moon and zealous conscripts seem like solid toolkit options. Thrun could also end up finding a spot in my sideboard (guess what? He's a shaman!). If I had the money for fetchlands, I would definitely run a copy of inkmoth nexus for fetching when primeval titan hits the field. Finally, I would love for someone to suggest cards to cut for Elvish Visionary! With Sachi in play, visionaries become crazy good.
Happy ramping, green mages!
i'd consider running the full playset of garruks and plow unders though. if i was running your version i'd be aiming for turn 3 plow under every single game, and having 4 means that even if one gets thoughtseized, you're more likely to have another in hand.
other than that it seems really good. have you considered 1x elesh norn, grand cenobite as a chord-able metagame crusher? i've been liking it so far.
For the 4th garruk, I've always been worried about drawing a 2-garruk opening hand. In my current list, there really aren't any cards (other than prime time and nykthos) that I am not happy to have 2 of in my opening hand. Do you all feel like the 4th garruk is just a neccesity due to how powerful he is in this list?
As to the elesh norn, I would be super happy to chord of calling for her, but would be most concerned about being able to cast her if I draw into her. I don't own any fetchlands, so I would most likely need to replace a few forests with temple gardens and my overgrowth's with fertile grounds to support her. I'm not sure if even that would be enough to consistently cast double white if she ends up in my hand. It would certainly open up a few more sideboard cards for the toolkit though (kataki, thalia) and even a few cool mainboard cards (knight of the reliquary, resto angel). Its definitely something worth testing online before I go out and buy her in paper!
a few times i've cast garruk, untapped nykthos, made a bunch of mana, cast a second garruk (ditched the first), untapped the lands again and made a bunch more mana.
take that as you will; but i've used a double garruk hand to ramp into some rather huge Genesis waves while playing the deck. it's not perfect but at least a second garruk in your hand does something. the new legend rule kind of helps us in that regard.
I think yours ideas are really close to mine, I really like how you build your deck. If you see my earlier posts, I was always supporting Command route, I am currently playing 2 sb plow unders, however playing them in a maindeck - I am totally blown by it! It might be really good idea. Remember, plow into witness into plow is still an option
Magus of a Candalabra is an interesting choice. It works really well with nykthos, overgrowth and utopia sprawls, looks good as a 1 off.
About Sachi - I considered her, however I cut BTEs so moved away from this idea. Can be quite good.
When are you boarding Genesis Wave/Sarkhan Vol/Strangleroots? For what matchups?
@CurdBros
What is a minimum number of elves to run Elvish Archdruid? I liked its engine, however is 4 arbor elves, 4 elvish visionary, 3 archdruid enought or not enought?
Hey Cranial! Sorry it took me a sec to respond to this. To answer your question, not really. Damping Matrix/Torpor Orb can usually be handled pretty easily with a Nature's Claim and/or Beast Within (of which I run two of each in the board). Dampining Matrix is generally not that big of a deal for me (as it doesn't affect most of my deck). Torpor Orb can be worse because it effect's Primeval Titan, Elvish Visionary, and Coiling Oracle. The speed of the deck actually can help play an important role here. Most people only run 1-2 Torpor Orb's; so by the time they get it on the board they are generally well behind. Don't get me wrong, there have been times where the opponent gets it in their opening hand and I don't have a way to deal with it in my opening hand. In those, I don't get to draw as many cards and I do have to play around it (this is where the value of planeswalkers come in very handy Fortunately neither devastates me and the game can still be won effectively with them in play.
Anger of the Gods actually is far worse for anyone running Birds, Nobles, Mystics, Joraga Treespeakers etc....basically anyone running multiple mana dorks as their ramp. This is of course because Anger of the Gods doesn't kill a Utopia Sprawl. Also, Anger can be a little "slow" against our build. You typically can ramp before they can get there. Also, in build where Anger or Pyroclasm is a pretty good chance of being played (UWR Control, R/G Tron, etc.); I generally play a slightly different game (will Chord for Ezuri to regenerate, etc.) Anger and Pyroclasm are actually part of the reason I went back to the Arbor Elf/Utopia Sprawl option (rather than using Elvish Mystic, Harbinger, Birds, etc.)
I will definitely keep an eye out and let you know if I'm running into issues with either; but thus far they have not been too detrimental to the success of the deck.
I really like the removal of Inferno Titan (the double Red seemed like it could be an issue at times with other double White creatures); and to be honest I like all of the changes you've made here! I agree that Spellskite is a great card that can be main-decked in a midrange-style build.
And you read my mind on Burning-Tree Shaman I've been testing with it for about 3 days now (although I haven't got enough matches in with it to post it to the deck); but it seems SUPER promising (given one of my few "tough" match-ups is Twin). Great post and seems like every change was a positive one!
This is a great version of the mid-range style of Deovtion list. I like it's flexibility quite a bit. What you give up in speed you make up with in disruption. Let us know how it does!
** Don't know why it says "Curd Bros Deck...it's Ferragamo's **
I've never tested with less than 12 other elves outside of Archdruid...I think it depends on the speed of the deck and how quickly you draw cards. Obviously, Archdruid is extremely powerful with even only 1 elf on board; but he become crazy good with two elves on board or more (as he then taps for 3+ mana, etc.). In all honesty; in most games you will already have an Arbor Elf and/or Visionary on board when you cast him; so you should be good most games. I would suggest using another elf if you can of course, but if you have other options you like; by all means try it out! I've never tested with only 8 other elves though (10 if you count the other two Archdruids). I hate giving too much specific advice on issues/ideas I haven't tested as I believe you can't truly know how something plays until you've tested it. I've seen too many ideas "on paper" perform poorly in reality to say with any certainty that you will consistently have plenty of elves to make it worth it. You SHOULD though. (as it really only takes one other elf to make him worth it).
On that note, I will be testing a bit more tonight and will let everyone know how it goes! It's super important (as Gnuhouse has discussed in the past) that we provide not only our deck ideas within this primer; but also how the deck performs in the meta, in testing etc. This way, we can all benefit from the work all of us Green Mages are putting in and we can continue to develop "core" ideas and philosophies of Green Devotion.