The different style of the deck was more or less on purpose, as I think we can't hold up to the mostly B 4C mana base while running Growth Spiral and T1 discard effects. You can't ask the deck to produce T1: B, T2: UG, T3: 1BB and T4: 3W for Rites without getting messed with I think. But yes, it will play a little Miracle-ish for sure, which might be a viable option in the current meta where LotV has a little fallen out of favour I feel. And if 4C Gifts Rock isn't something, then that is streamlined. I always experienced it as incredibly durdly, setting aside purposefully streamlined lists with e.g. more Delve threats and Thought Scour instead if the heavy attrition package. Just think of grinding with Loam/Crime/Tec Edge, sure it feels like a well-oiled machinery at times, but the solutions it provides are sometimes really slow, although I will admit the deck has solutions for almost anything.
Regarding your question with the fatties in hand: First and foremost we have JtMS, he cares about things we not want in our hand, be it Terminus or one of the bigger dudes. Apart from this you might notice the 1-of Radical Idea, which can be easily included in a pile with Rites and things like Lingering Souls and Snapcaster/Pulse of Murasa to discard the creature wer can't currently cast and generate incidental value along the way.
As said, I haven't playtested the list so far, it is really just 'theory crafting' if you like. In any case I will let you know how it went.
The different style of the deck was more or less on purpose, as I think we can't hold up to the mostly B 4C mana base while running Growth Spiral and T1 discard effects. You can't ask the deck to produce T1: B, T2: UG, T3: 1BB and T4: 3W for Rites without getting messed with I think. But yes, it will play a little Miracle-ish for sure, which might be a viable option in the current meta where LotV has a little fallen out of favour I feel. And if 4C Gifts Rock isn't something, then that is streamlined. I always experienced it as incredibly durdly, setting aside purposefully streamlined lists with e.g. more Delve threats and Thought Scour instead if the heavy attrition package. Just think of grinding with Loam/Crime/Tec Edge, sure it feels like a well-oiled machinery at times, but the solutions it provides are sometimes really slow, although I will admit the deck has solutions for almost anything.
Regarding your question with the fatties in hand: First and foremost we have JtMS, he cares about things we not want in our hand, be it Terminus or one of the bigger dudes. Apart from this you might notice the 1-of Radical Idea, which can be easily included in a pile with Rites and things like Lingering Souls and Snapcaster/Pulse of Murasa to discard the creature wer can't currently cast and generate incidental value along the way.
As said, I haven't playtested the list so far, it is really just 'theory crafting' if you like. In any case I will let you know how it went.
I personally think gifts decks need to move away from the idea of 1 offs tutor for gifts piles:
1) Gifts decks, especially the Green version without any card draw cannot consistently draw their gifts ungivens. Even with with cards like Jace VP, you're at best 60% to draw your gifts in the matchup by turn 4.
2) You need to assume your graveyard is under attack post board. Especially post board, I think gifts deck needs to move away from their graveyard and move above ground with grindy cards or ways to protect their combo.
3) This Gifts into Radical Idea, Lingering Souls etc isn't really a "winning" line of play.
I'm a strong proponent of gifts decks maxing out on discard outlets such as Brualities, Cliques, Liliana, Nahiri etc and essentially allowing you to play a much higher curve than other archetypes given your combo and your discard outlets and winning that way. I'm also a proponent that 4c gifts lists need a sideboard option of something like Peer through depths or Merchant scroll to help belcher out the combo against non-interactive matchups.
I personally think gifts decks need to move away from the idea of 1 offs tutor for gifts piles:
1) Gifts decks, especially the Green version without any card draw cannot consistently draw their gifts ungivens. Even with with cards like Jace VP, you're at best 60% to draw your gifts in the matchup by turn 4.
2) You need to assume your graveyard is under attack post board. Especially post board, I think gifts deck needs to move away from their graveyard and move above ground with grindy cards or ways to protect their combo.
3) This Gifts into Radical Idea, Lingering Souls etc isn't really a "winning" line of play.
I'm a strong proponent of gifts decks maxing out on discard outlets such as Brualities, Cliques, Liliana, Nahiri etc and essentially allowing you to play a much higher curve than other archetypes given your combo and your discard outlets and winning that way. I'm also a proponent that 4c gifts lists need a sideboard option of something like Peer through depths or Merchant scroll to help belcher out the combo against non-interactive matchups.
While your first point holds some truth indeed, I think that Gifts isn't always needed in certain matchups. Most of the lists, especially the ones leaning more heavily on B and consequently on more discard as well can outgrind an opponent without seeing Gifts only once. Lingering Souls does a great job in this regard, but yes, sometimes one just can't find it in time and ends up a turn short, as one does with other combo decks as well. The more recent iteration holds a number of cantrips in Growth Spiral which might help speed up the deck and see 1 or 2 cards in addition, so we'll see. I considered running Merchant Scroll already, but I fear that it is just too slow or too low impact. On turn 2 or 3 one needs to have some form of disruption/removal available, so I don't think there is time for Scroll. Peer Through Depths could be worth a try, Gifts Storm often uses this post board to reduce the reliance on the GY, so maybe it is a valid strategy here, but we are on a pretty different strategy alltogether.
Moving away from the GY in a Gifts deck is a tough task. As said, R has the opportunity of Nahiri/Emrakul or simply Madcap/Emperion but I don't see how the BGUw lists should operate fully 'above ground' as you say, the GY is intrinsically woven into the strategy. You can't ask Dredge to play without their GY post board, although that admittedly is a little more drastic than with Gifts. And sure, Gifts into Souls/Radical Idea/Rites/X does not win the game on the spot but is a (deterministic!) possibility for discarding a reanimation target in hand without leaning too heavily on B.
I considered going 2 Peer Through depths (still testing it) in the board to try to find Wear // Tear to protect combo, or find high impact cards like K command, Surgical, Unmoored Ego, Radiant Flames, DreadBore or Brutality etc (high impact sideboard cards) or gifts itself to belcher win. I find I'm losing too many games against burn or Dredge because I'm not finding gifts fast enough.
I'm a proponent of Gifts decks playing more discard outlets or Vendilion clique (which gifts list need anyways to get Iona into the bin or into the deck) and playing a higher curve in the main/ sideboard. i don't think Gifts decks should try to use their graveyard as the value engine but more or less use the fact that we can get away with able to mainboard or sideboard 2 Grave Titans/ Dragonlord Silumgar/ Elspeth or other 6 drops at a much lower cost compared to other decks. I like using gifts as a way to tutor up lands to try to hit your 6 drops.
I love this archetype more than anything but am really wondering whether it should still be in the Established section. Nobody has put up even a single result with this deck in, what, years now?
Good to see you guys keeping the flame alive regardless.
I might join you in this regard and run a couple of Peer Through Depths to see how they work out. The Burn matchup is incredibly bad in my experience, unless you can mostly search basics or at least do it as painlessly as possible to T4 Gifts into Iona. A nicely placed T2 Brutality helps a lot, but generally we are on the loosing side. Dredge I can't really comment on as I haven't played the matchup a ton, Elesh seems to do quite a good job though and pseudo sweepers like Flaying Tendrils or Cry of the Carnarium do help. And Kalitas, of course.
Yes, my go-to Gifts list plays 11 discard outlets, 5 of the are reusable. Vendillion Clique did not quite make the cut due to mana requirements up to now, UU and BB on turn 3 together with G for Decay/Trophy/Loam seem to be quite a stretch. I tried Grave Titan a while ago, but the lack of evasion and immediate impact (apart from a 2/2 zombie) wasn't enough to keep him in the board so far. Gifts as mainly a land tutor sounds a little odd to be honest, there are sure situations where it is the correct play, but generally I wouldn't want to run a playset of Realms Uncharted.
Regarding tournament results, it (that is, Esper Gifts) put up some 5-0s in competitive leagues on MtGO last summer. Here are some of the lists: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/1220849#paper
I might join you in this regard and run a couple of Peer Through Depths to see how they work out. The Burn matchup is incredibly bad in my experience, unless you can mostly search basics or at least do it as painlessly as possible to T4 Gifts into Iona. A nicely placed T2 Brutality helps a lot, but generally we are on the loosing side. Dredge I can't really comment on as I haven't played the matchup a ton, Elesh seems to do quite a good job though and pseudo sweepers like Flaying Tendrils or Cry of the Carnarium do help. And Kalitas, of course.
Yes, my go-to Gifts list plays 11 discard outlets, 5 of the are reusable. Vendillion Clique did not quite make the cut due to mana requirements up to now, UU and BB on turn 3 together with G for Decay/Trophy/Loam seem to be quite a stretch. I tried Grave Titan a while ago, but the lack of evasion and immediate impact (apart from a 2/2 zombie) wasn't enough to keep him in the board so far. Gifts as mainly a land tutor sounds a little odd to be honest, there are sure situations where it is the correct play, but generally I wouldn't want to run a playset of Realms Uncharted.
Regarding tournament results, it (that is, Esper Gifts) put up some 5-0s in competitive leagues on MtGO last summer. Here are some of the lists: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/1220849#paper
The Dredge matchup is a bit hard but your deck generally can out race with an early Elesh and you can Sweep their board and then you keep him with the Elesh
Dredge is really picking up speed right now. I wouldn't leave without a minimum of 3 pieces of grave hate now.
Regarding tournament results, it (that is, Esper Gifts) put up some 5-0s in competitive leagues on MtGO last summer. Here are some of the lists: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/1220849#paper
Today I had a testing session with 4C Gifts Rock (so the B-heavy build) against GDS and Sultai Control (with and without Mystical Teachings, essentially Jeff Hoogland's list with minor tweaks). Maybe you all know how the matchups play out, I'll state my experiences anyway: GDS seems to be about even, it strongly depends on how good they draw (that is, how fast their draw is) and how many Stubborn Denials there are, heck is this card annoying at time. Lingering Souls are great in this matchup, although they don't help much against a Temur Battle Rage, however getting through some damage is enough at times. This is a potential matchup where Abrupt Decay might have an upside as compared to Trophy, the uncounterability clause does wonders, whereas Decay does neither hit Angler nor Tasigur though.
Against Sultai Control without Teachings (so roughly 59 out of 60 cards of Hoogland's list basically) it played out quite nicely. Early discard clears the way for Lingering Souls, Liliana or even Gifts Ungiven which usually goes for the Loam/Crime engine together with a Tectonic Edge to shut them off of Cryptic mana. From there on it's a steady grind until we eventually find Lingering Souls, another Gifts or simply Kalitas to close out the game as their capability of removing our threats are greatly diminished. A different story it is when Mystical Teachings come into the equation, that is quite the annoyance. As soon as we stumble with our discard or don't have a play every turn to pressure their hand or threaten to cast Gifts, they can EoT Teachings for Cryptic or another Teachings given they already have counters in hand, all backed up by growth spiral. Another huge liability is a main board Surgical Extraction that can be found with Cryptic Command and cast immediately, which can only be delayed by discard due to the relatively high flashback cost of Teachings, but it is nevertheless going to happen. Going for one of the fatties isn't really an issue, as Rites is usually just countered or the creature is bounced or destroyed with Trophy, maybe even disposed of via Devour Flesh. The upshot is, it is quite a liability if the opponent's deck is close to full instant speed when we have quite a bunch (around 11-13, depending on the build) of sorceries, the only real out is again the Loam/Crime package but even when drawn naturally, Sultai Teachings did put up quite a fight.
Needless to say, Ensnaring Bridge (and EE for the Sultai matchup) weren't great at all. I got some Death Shadows with EE and got an additional turn with Bridge, but I guess these are not the matchups those are in for. I think cutting them from the main board and getting rid of Academy Ruins as a recursion engine is still not correct, but I very well might be wrong and it is plain side board material (maybe for an extra Brutality). Any thoughts? In the upcoming days I might get to some testing against Ponza, where I expect Ensnaring Bridge to shine against their Baloths, Stormbreath Dragons and Inferno Titans, but these guys are of course not the final issue in this particular matchup, although I haven't played it since the release of Trophy, those might go a long way.
What's everyone's initial reaction to the idea that WOTC might move us to a London mulligan? I feel like it'll help us mulligan as seeing 7 and bottoming an iona will feel far better than only seeing the 5 or 6 and having to keep the hand while wishing iona was anything else.
I mean people freaked out about the Vancouver Mulligan rule. To be honest, it wasn't that bad, it significantly helped to improve the game and mulligans.
This ruling could significantly help the "Mulligan into Leyline or Mulligan into hate".
I think I would be slightly in favor of this rule to help decks like Ad Nauseam Mulligan into a Leyline of Sanctity or Burn in Legacy to Mulligan into a Leyline.
Initially I would think the same, maybe I'll just playtest the new mulligan rule and see how it goes. On the other hand, especially post board we might face hate more consistently while also finding disruption ourselves on a more regular basis. The Tron matchup will stay abysmal regardless, I think.
Moving away from the GY in a Gifts deck is a tough task. As said, R has the opportunity of Nahiri/Emrakul or simply Madcap/Emperion but I don't see how the BGUw lists should operate fully 'above ground' as you say, the GY is intrinsically woven into the strategy. You can't ask Dredge to play without their GY post board, although that admittedly is a little more drastic than with Gifts. And sure, Gifts into Souls/Radical Idea/Rites/X does not win the game on the spot but is a (deterministic!) possibility for discarding a reanimation target in hand without leaning too heavily on B.
I think I have to agree with you; This idea of moving gifts away from the combo post sideboard is not a great approach.
Did you playtest the sideboard plan with Madcap/Emperion yet? At least on paper and since you are in Red anyway, this sounds viable.
Needless to say, I tested around 10 matches against Ponza and was able to win a single one where they stumbled on their mana and/or draws, respectively. Not a single game was won by casting Gifts Ungiven, almost everything that mattered was done on the back of an early LotV paired with even earlier discard and enough outs for Blood Moon. Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet was the single best creature one can imagine, as soon as the opponents needs to chump this guy, things get pretty ugly. Occasionally Trophy snipes a Stormbreath Dragon, but it overall feels pretty much like Abrupt Decay in the matchup. Ensnaring Bridge was mediocre, I managed to stabilize for several turns without finding anything that matters while having enough basics under a resolved Blood Moon (WUB basically, so enough for Gifts/Rites). Initially, keeping the number of cards low worked pretty fine until Stone Rains, Acid-Moss and Beast Within started hitting my basics, which led to my hand piling up, rendering Bridge utterly useless. Do you have any experience in running against Ponza? I think I have never had a matchup this bad so far (I'd estimate 10:90, obviously), although Tron sometimes felt pretty similar without Terastodon in the pile, maybe Trophy helps a bit.
Did you playtest the sideboard plan with Madcap/Emperion yet? At least on paper and since you are in Red anyway, this sounds viable.
Needless to say, I tested around 10 matches against Ponza and was able to win a single one where they stumbled on their mana and/or draws, respectively. Not a single game was won by casting Gifts Ungiven, almost everything that mattered was done on the back of an early LotV paired with even earlier discard and enough outs for Blood Moon. Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet was the single best creature one can imagine, as soon as the opponents needs to chump this guy, things get pretty ugly. Occasionally Trophy snipes a Stormbreath Dragon, but it overall feels pretty much like Abrupt Decay in the matchup. Ensnaring Bridge was mediocre, I managed to stabilize for several turns without finding anything that matters while having enough basics under a resolved Blood Moon (WUB basically, so enough for Gifts/Rites). Initially, keeping the number of cards low worked pretty fine until Stone Rains, Acid-Moss and Beast Within started hitting my basics, which led to my hand piling up, rendering Bridge utterly useless. Do you have any experience in running against Ponza? I think I have never had a matchup this bad so far (I'd estimate 10:90, obviously), although Tron sometimes felt pretty similar without Terastodon in the pile, maybe Trophy helps a bit.
I actually liked Madcap Experiment. I think I would like 2 Mapcap and 2 Emperium but not I'm not 100% sure what to cut for it. The issue is we don't have any real ways to really protect the Emperium. But I'm a bigger fan of Nahiri - Emarkul. (I mainboard 2, I could see myself playing a 3rd in the board + 1 Emarkul). Its great against sideboard Blood Moon and the slower grindy threats of Thing In the Ice, Phoneix, Goyf, Reality Smasher etc etc. Sure she exiles Rest in Peace and Leyline but I don't care too much about those if I'm going the Nahiri Route
I run the Dark Jeskai version and I have access to Nahiri which is backbreaking in the Ponza Matchup.
I also mainboard 2 Dragonlord Silumgars so my testings results are alot different from your results.
The list definitely looks spicy, I am always inclined to point out the lack of turn 1 interaction and counters though. Sounds rough if you start on the draw against an opponent on Dredge, Hollow One or Phoenix without being able to disrupt their plan until turn 3, Path to Exile excluded of course, but that's not quite the most powerful thing to do early on. Do you have some experience to share against those archetypes? Also, what's up with Worm Harvest? This doesn't sound overwhelming without Loam, especially when you need to cast it for 2BBB due to the lack of G.
Your statement about the Ponza matchup makes me curious, how does Dragonlord Silumgar matter at all? I was not able to reach 4 lands until turn 6 eventually, but at this time I was facing either Stormbreath Dragon, Inferno Titan or just both, maybe paired with Scavenging Ooze. There is not much one can do at this point, even Damnation is a stretch at 2BB with only one basic Swamp. Same story with Liliana of the Veil and Vendilion Clique in your list, basically uncastable under a Moon. When the Ponza player goes after you Plains, Nahiri is also out of the equation. I don't know how many LD spells current lists play, but the one I tested against runs 8 of them + 4 Blood Moon + recursion in the form of Eternal Witness, that's just miserable.
The list definitely looks spicy, I am always inclined to point out the lack of turn 1 interaction and counters though. Sounds rough if you start on the draw against an opponent on Dredge, Hollow One or Phoenix without being able to disrupt their plan until turn 3, Path to Exile excluded of course, but that's not quite the most powerful thing to do early on. Do you have some experience to share against those archetypes? Also, what's up with Worm Harvest? This doesn't sound overwhelming without Loam, especially when you need to cast it for 2BBB due to the lack of G.
Your statement about the Ponza matchup makes me curious, how does Dragonlord Silumgar matter at all? I was not able to reach 4 lands until turn 6 eventually, but at this time I was facing either Stormbreath Dragon, Inferno Titan or just both, maybe paired with Scavenging Ooze. There is not much one can do at this point, even Damnation is a stretch at 2BB with only one basic Swamp. Same story with Liliana of the Veil and Vendilion Clique in your list, basically uncastable under a Moon. When the Ponza player goes after you Plains, Nahiri is also out of the equation. I don't know how many LD spells current lists play, but the one I tested against runs 8 of them + 4 Blood Moon + recursion in the form of Eternal Witness, that's just miserable.
I need to rely mostly on Nahiri to carry that matchup. The matchup isn't good. The DragonLord Silumgar gives you a somewhat feasible path to victory -> As long as your topdeck is stronger than your opponent and they are using their resources to slow down your land drop but not applying relevant pressure, you're not in a bad position.
90% of the time I clique myself. Clique is relevant as a card draw and to apply pressure on their walkers.
The Worm Harvest is a tutor target where you go Gifts into 3 Fetches + Worm Harvest. Then you use Worm Harvest every turn to retrace 5-10 worms every turn. This is my package against control decks. Its also a second gifts "bullet" in case for some reason your first bullet was removed by some odd way.
The problem was against Control decks like UW, Abzan etc. You cannot name them off a color and they got too many sweepers and removal to make reanimating something like Grave Titan a reasonable plan.
You can also go something like Liliana/ Jace Discard - Hold Priority -> Gifts for Worm, Unburial, Iona. Then discard what they give you.
The deck replaces the Inquisitions with 4 Brutalities.
I need to rely mostly on Nahiri to carry that matchup. The matchup isn't good. The DragonLord Silumgar gives you a somewhat feasible path to victory -> As long as your topdeck is stronger than your opponent and they are using their resources to slow down your land drop but not applying relevant pressure, you're not in a bad position.
90% of the time I clique myself. Clique is relevant as a card draw and to apply pressure on their walkers.
The Worm Harvest is a tutor target where you go Gifts into 3 Fetches + Worm Harvest. Then you use Worm Harvest every turn to retrace 5-10 worms every turn. This is my package against control decks. Its also a second gifts "bullet" in case for some reason your first bullet was removed by some odd way.
The problem was against Control decks like UW, Abzan etc. You cannot name them off a color and they got too many sweepers and removal to make reanimating something like Grave Titan a reasonable plan.
You can also go something like Liliana/ Jace Discard - Hold Priority -> Gifts for Worm, Unburial, Iona. Then discard what they give you.
The deck replaces the Inquisitions with 4 Brutalities.
Well, if they drop a Blood Moon and get either your Swamp or Island, there is no way of casting the Dragon. And there is no way you can discard their Blood Moon apart from Clique (since Brutality does not hit Enchantments), which forces you to fetch for a nonbasic. Same story with the Plains as far as Unburial Rites is concerned, at this point it pretty much does not matter anymore if they apply pressure because essentially your whole deck is uncastable, all but (at best) a few topdecks become dead draws.
True that, the planeswalker issue is solved by Abrupt Decay and Assassin's Trophy in the lists with G, one of the reasons to consider this instead of R.
True, against UWx and other control archetypes we need something to close out the game with, the fatties don't do it reliably enough. Sometimes Elesh + Lingering Souls is a fast enough clock, but the tokens (and somewhat Norn herself) are rather fragile when it comes to removal. I rely on manlands + Loam if they should get disrupted in any way, recently going for 2 Tar Pits instead of a 1/1 split with Colonnades because they can be activated much earlier and provide a B source (I have 17 currently). Still, triple-B seems like a stretch for the manabase, for casting it on curve (that is, after a T4 Gifts) you need 18 black sources (just as for LotV) without a single one being disrupted along the way. Since you don't run G you can't use the hybrid mana either and Remand or any counter is a huge tempo loss with this kind of play, but this gets us in many cases I guess...
As said, Brutalities don't get creatures, enchantments or planeswalkers and are a full turn slower. Imo, Brutalities can supplement the discard suite (hence I run it as a 1-of, maybe exchanging it with Bridge going to the sideboard) but not replace it. Of course, I do not run Clique, but that's two turns slower, where games are sometimes effectively (or actually) over.
I've been tweaking it some but generally go 2-2 or better at my LGS for FNM though I did get a top 4 finish at the stores 18-man tournament a few months ago.
Some notable card choices/results
Earlier versions of my list ran 2 Steves- I’ve recently cut them. I would always want caryatid over him and late game he was a barely usable draw (fog biggest attacker +deck thin). He started to become the first cut for SB cards so dropped them for more impactful cards.
Sylvan Caryatid- This is the premier ramp for me. It's any color is great for mana fixing. The hexproof means the opponent must attack through it and the life it saves helps to get me to the late game in a better state. It also helps to enable an gifts/ wrath on t3 and unburial through LOTV that threatens to edict.
Champion of Wits- I wouldn't go above a 1 of for him. He's good to help filter the hand and doesn't hurt to pitch to LOTV/brutalities. The eternalize comes up occasionally in the late game where the Draw 4 pitch 2 can help close out the game. It being 3cmc is also nice for Sun Titan.
Liliana, Death's Majesty- Big Lili as I like to call her. She is my replacement for Elspeth- she can be a 5cmc reanimate that leaves a walker or fill my grave while making 2/2 zombies. I’ve never had reason to user her ULT though.
Baneslayer Angel- Just a beat stick that can stabilize the board and life total. Nothing unheard of or untested.
I only managed to trade for these 2 last night so they have only a little testing behind them:
Doom Whisperer- In theory this is a pseudo griselbrand that can come down t4 with my ramp. The surveil gives me a way to leverage some of the life caryatid has saved. I only got it out once last night where it was just a beat stick that got a concession next turn.
Search for Azcanta – I got a fair amount of testing with this card last night I managed to get it at least 1 game in every match. I immediately want to go up to a 2 of. It helps to filter draws early and late game once I’ve stabilized it lets me dig for gifts or removal as needed. I’ve always felt the biggest problem with gift decks is the lack of draw/selection so we draw the wrong half sometimes. If I can get a second one I'll either drop doom whisperer (depending on his performance) or the third collective brutality to slot it in the main.
The sideboard feels like a hot mess. Mostly of things I’ve had in older lists. There isn’t a conducive plan yet.
Unmoored Ego- Has been decent good for dealing combo, tron and low threat density decks like Arclight and death’s shadow. Not sure if it makes the cut long term though.
I’m planning on testing a worship in the board to take advantage of caryatid’s Hexproof to form a variant of troll worship lock. Still not 100% the match ups where that lock is better than Iona/ Elesh Norn though. Just need to pickup the card from my LGS/ or trade for it.
Regarding your question with the fatties in hand: First and foremost we have JtMS, he cares about things we not want in our hand, be it Terminus or one of the bigger dudes. Apart from this you might notice the 1-of Radical Idea, which can be easily included in a pile with Rites and things like Lingering Souls and Snapcaster/Pulse of Murasa to discard the creature wer can't currently cast and generate incidental value along the way.
As said, I haven't playtested the list so far, it is really just 'theory crafting' if you like. In any case I will let you know how it went.
I personally think gifts decks need to move away from the idea of 1 offs tutor for gifts piles:
1) Gifts decks, especially the Green version without any card draw cannot consistently draw their gifts ungivens. Even with with cards like Jace VP, you're at best 60% to draw your gifts in the matchup by turn 4.
2) You need to assume your graveyard is under attack post board. Especially post board, I think gifts deck needs to move away from their graveyard and move above ground with grindy cards or ways to protect their combo.
3) This Gifts into Radical Idea, Lingering Souls etc isn't really a "winning" line of play.
I'm a strong proponent of gifts decks maxing out on discard outlets such as Brualities, Cliques, Liliana, Nahiri etc and essentially allowing you to play a much higher curve than other archetypes given your combo and your discard outlets and winning that way. I'm also a proponent that 4c gifts lists need a sideboard option of something like Peer through depths or Merchant scroll to help belcher out the combo against non-interactive matchups.
While your first point holds some truth indeed, I think that Gifts isn't always needed in certain matchups. Most of the lists, especially the ones leaning more heavily on B and consequently on more discard as well can outgrind an opponent without seeing Gifts only once. Lingering Souls does a great job in this regard, but yes, sometimes one just can't find it in time and ends up a turn short, as one does with other combo decks as well. The more recent iteration holds a number of cantrips in Growth Spiral which might help speed up the deck and see 1 or 2 cards in addition, so we'll see. I considered running Merchant Scroll already, but I fear that it is just too slow or too low impact. On turn 2 or 3 one needs to have some form of disruption/removal available, so I don't think there is time for Scroll. Peer Through Depths could be worth a try, Gifts Storm often uses this post board to reduce the reliance on the GY, so maybe it is a valid strategy here, but we are on a pretty different strategy alltogether.
Moving away from the GY in a Gifts deck is a tough task. As said, R has the opportunity of Nahiri/Emrakul or simply Madcap/Emperion but I don't see how the BGUw lists should operate fully 'above ground' as you say, the GY is intrinsically woven into the strategy. You can't ask Dredge to play without their GY post board, although that admittedly is a little more drastic than with Gifts. And sure, Gifts into Souls/Radical Idea/Rites/X does not win the game on the spot but is a (deterministic!) possibility for discarding a reanimation target in hand without leaning too heavily on B.
I'm a proponent of Gifts decks playing more discard outlets or Vendilion clique (which gifts list need anyways to get Iona into the bin or into the deck) and playing a higher curve in the main/ sideboard. i don't think Gifts decks should try to use their graveyard as the value engine but more or less use the fact that we can get away with able to mainboard or sideboard 2 Grave Titans/ Dragonlord Silumgar/ Elspeth or other 6 drops at a much lower cost compared to other decks. I like using gifts as a way to tutor up lands to try to hit your 6 drops.
Good to see you guys keeping the flame alive regardless.
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
Yes, my go-to Gifts list plays 11 discard outlets, 5 of the are reusable. Vendillion Clique did not quite make the cut due to mana requirements up to now, UU and BB on turn 3 together with G for Decay/Trophy/Loam seem to be quite a stretch. I tried Grave Titan a while ago, but the lack of evasion and immediate impact (apart from a 2/2 zombie) wasn't enough to keep him in the board so far. Gifts as mainly a land tutor sounds a little odd to be honest, there are sure situations where it is the correct play, but generally I wouldn't want to run a playset of Realms Uncharted.
Regarding tournament results, it (that is, Esper Gifts) put up some 5-0s in competitive leagues on MtGO last summer. Here are some of the lists: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/1220849#paper
The Dredge matchup is a bit hard but your deck generally can out race with an early Elesh and you can Sweep their board and then you keep him with the Elesh
Dredge is really picking up speed right now. I wouldn't leave without a minimum of 3 pieces of grave hate now.
Thanks, missed those.
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
Against Sultai Control without Teachings (so roughly 59 out of 60 cards of Hoogland's list basically) it played out quite nicely. Early discard clears the way for Lingering Souls, Liliana or even Gifts Ungiven which usually goes for the Loam/Crime engine together with a Tectonic Edge to shut them off of Cryptic mana. From there on it's a steady grind until we eventually find Lingering Souls, another Gifts or simply Kalitas to close out the game as their capability of removing our threats are greatly diminished. A different story it is when Mystical Teachings come into the equation, that is quite the annoyance. As soon as we stumble with our discard or don't have a play every turn to pressure their hand or threaten to cast Gifts, they can EoT Teachings for Cryptic or another Teachings given they already have counters in hand, all backed up by growth spiral. Another huge liability is a main board Surgical Extraction that can be found with Cryptic Command and cast immediately, which can only be delayed by discard due to the relatively high flashback cost of Teachings, but it is nevertheless going to happen. Going for one of the fatties isn't really an issue, as Rites is usually just countered or the creature is bounced or destroyed with Trophy, maybe even disposed of via Devour Flesh. The upshot is, it is quite a liability if the opponent's deck is close to full instant speed when we have quite a bunch (around 11-13, depending on the build) of sorceries, the only real out is again the Loam/Crime package but even when drawn naturally, Sultai Teachings did put up quite a fight.
Needless to say, Ensnaring Bridge (and EE for the Sultai matchup) weren't great at all. I got some Death Shadows with EE and got an additional turn with Bridge, but I guess these are not the matchups those are in for. I think cutting them from the main board and getting rid of Academy Ruins as a recursion engine is still not correct, but I very well might be wrong and it is plain side board material (maybe for an extra Brutality). Any thoughts? In the upcoming days I might get to some testing against Ponza, where I expect Ensnaring Bridge to shine against their Baloths, Stormbreath Dragons and Inferno Titans, but these guys are of course not the final issue in this particular matchup, although I haven't played it since the release of Trophy, those might go a long way.
4c Gifts Deck Stats: https://bit.ly/2XMPrlY
https://pucatrade.com/invite/gift/120495
This ruling could significantly help the "Mulligan into Leyline or Mulligan into hate".
I think I would be slightly in favor of this rule to help decks like Ad Nauseam Mulligan into a Leyline of Sanctity or Burn in Legacy to Mulligan into a Leyline.
- Unfair decks will be able to mulligan to better hands.
- Fair decks will be able to mulligan into Leylines and hate pieces.
I think I have to agree with you; This idea of moving gifts away from the combo post sideboard is not a great approach.
Needless to say, I tested around 10 matches against Ponza and was able to win a single one where they stumbled on their mana and/or draws, respectively. Not a single game was won by casting Gifts Ungiven, almost everything that mattered was done on the back of an early LotV paired with even earlier discard and enough outs for Blood Moon. Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet was the single best creature one can imagine, as soon as the opponents needs to chump this guy, things get pretty ugly. Occasionally Trophy snipes a Stormbreath Dragon, but it overall feels pretty much like Abrupt Decay in the matchup. Ensnaring Bridge was mediocre, I managed to stabilize for several turns without finding anything that matters while having enough basics under a resolved Blood Moon (WUB basically, so enough for Gifts/Rites). Initially, keeping the number of cards low worked pretty fine until Stone Rains, Acid-Moss and Beast Within started hitting my basics, which led to my hand piling up, rendering Bridge utterly useless. Do you have any experience in running against Ponza? I think I have never had a matchup this bad so far (I'd estimate 10:90, obviously), although Tron sometimes felt pretty similar without Terastodon in the pile, maybe Trophy helps a bit.
I actually liked Madcap Experiment. I think I would like 2 Mapcap and 2 Emperium but not I'm not 100% sure what to cut for it. The issue is we don't have any real ways to really protect the Emperium. But I'm a bigger fan of Nahiri - Emarkul. (I mainboard 2, I could see myself playing a 3rd in the board + 1 Emarkul). Its great against sideboard Blood Moon and the slower grindy threats of Thing In the Ice, Phoneix, Goyf, Reality Smasher etc etc. Sure she exiles Rest in Peace and Leyline but I don't care too much about those if I'm going the Nahiri Route
I run the Dark Jeskai version and I have access to Nahiri which is backbreaking in the Ponza Matchup.
I also mainboard 2 Dragonlord Silumgars so my testings results are alot different from your results.
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Watery Grave
1 Godless Shrine
1 Steam Vents
1 Blood Crypt
1 Hallowed Fountain
4 Darkslick Shores
3 Marsh Flats
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Island
Creature
4 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
4 Vendilion Clique
2 Notion Thief
2 Dragonlord Silumgar
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
3 Fatal Push
3 Path to Exile
4 Collective Brutality
2 Kolaghan's command
4 Gifts Ungiven
1 Worm Harvest
1 Unburial Rites
Planeswalker
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Nahiri, the harbinger
3 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Kolaghan's command
2 Duress
2 Radiant Flames
2 Wear // Tear
2 Hero's Downfall
1 Nahiri, the harbinger
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
This is what my deck would look like with Nahiri, Emarkul Sideboard.
Your statement about the Ponza matchup makes me curious, how does Dragonlord Silumgar matter at all? I was not able to reach 4 lands until turn 6 eventually, but at this time I was facing either Stormbreath Dragon, Inferno Titan or just both, maybe paired with Scavenging Ooze. There is not much one can do at this point, even Damnation is a stretch at 2BB with only one basic Swamp. Same story with Liliana of the Veil and Vendilion Clique in your list, basically uncastable under a Moon. When the Ponza player goes after you Plains, Nahiri is also out of the equation. I don't know how many LD spells current lists play, but the one I tested against runs 8 of them + 4 Blood Moon + recursion in the form of Eternal Witness, that's just miserable.
I need to rely mostly on Nahiri to carry that matchup. The matchup isn't good. The DragonLord Silumgar gives you a somewhat feasible path to victory -> As long as your topdeck is stronger than your opponent and they are using their resources to slow down your land drop but not applying relevant pressure, you're not in a bad position.
90% of the time I clique myself. Clique is relevant as a card draw and to apply pressure on their walkers.
The Worm Harvest is a tutor target where you go Gifts into 3 Fetches + Worm Harvest. Then you use Worm Harvest every turn to retrace 5-10 worms every turn. This is my package against control decks. Its also a second gifts "bullet" in case for some reason your first bullet was removed by some odd way.
The problem was against Control decks like UW, Abzan etc. You cannot name them off a color and they got too many sweepers and removal to make reanimating something like Grave Titan a reasonable plan.
You can also go something like Liliana/ Jace Discard - Hold Priority -> Gifts for Worm, Unburial, Iona. Then discard what they give you.
The deck replaces the Inquisitions with 4 Brutalities.
Well, if they drop a Blood Moon and get either your Swamp or Island, there is no way of casting the Dragon. And there is no way you can discard their Blood Moon apart from Clique (since Brutality does not hit Enchantments), which forces you to fetch for a nonbasic. Same story with the Plains as far as Unburial Rites is concerned, at this point it pretty much does not matter anymore if they apply pressure because essentially your whole deck is uncastable, all but (at best) a few topdecks become dead draws.
True that, the planeswalker issue is solved by Abrupt Decay and Assassin's Trophy in the lists with G, one of the reasons to consider this instead of R.
True, against UWx and other control archetypes we need something to close out the game with, the fatties don't do it reliably enough. Sometimes Elesh + Lingering Souls is a fast enough clock, but the tokens (and somewhat Norn herself) are rather fragile when it comes to removal. I rely on manlands + Loam if they should get disrupted in any way, recently going for 2 Tar Pits instead of a 1/1 split with Colonnades because they can be activated much earlier and provide a B source (I have 17 currently). Still, triple-B seems like a stretch for the manabase, for casting it on curve (that is, after a T4 Gifts) you need 18 black sources (just as for LotV) without a single one being disrupted along the way. Since you don't run G you can't use the hybrid mana either and Remand or any counter is a huge tempo loss with this kind of play, but this gets us in many cases I guess...
As said, Brutalities don't get creatures, enchantments or planeswalkers and are a full turn slower. Imo, Brutalities can supplement the discard suite (hence I run it as a 1-of, maybe exchanging it with Bridge going to the sideboard) but not replace it. Of course, I do not run Clique, but that's two turns slower, where games are sometimes effectively (or actually) over.
I've been tweaking it some but generally go 2-2 or better at my LGS for FNM though I did get a top 4 finish at the stores 18-man tournament a few months ago.
Some notable card choices/results
Earlier versions of my list ran 2 Steves- I’ve recently cut them. I would always want caryatid over him and late game he was a barely usable draw (fog biggest attacker +deck thin). He started to become the first cut for SB cards so dropped them for more impactful cards.
Sylvan Caryatid- This is the premier ramp for me. It's any color is great for mana fixing. The hexproof means the opponent must attack through it and the life it saves helps to get me to the late game in a better state. It also helps to enable an gifts/ wrath on t3 and unburial through LOTV that threatens to edict.
Champion of Wits- I wouldn't go above a 1 of for him. He's good to help filter the hand and doesn't hurt to pitch to LOTV/brutalities. The eternalize comes up occasionally in the late game where the Draw 4 pitch 2 can help close out the game. It being 3cmc is also nice for Sun Titan.
Liliana, Death's Majesty- Big Lili as I like to call her. She is my replacement for Elspeth- she can be a 5cmc reanimate that leaves a walker or fill my grave while making 2/2 zombies. I’ve never had reason to user her ULT though.
Baneslayer Angel- Just a beat stick that can stabilize the board and life total. Nothing unheard of or untested.
I only managed to trade for these 2 last night so they have only a little testing behind them:
Doom Whisperer- In theory this is a pseudo griselbrand that can come down t4 with my ramp. The surveil gives me a way to leverage some of the life caryatid has saved. I only got it out once last night where it was just a beat stick that got a concession next turn.
Search for Azcanta – I got a fair amount of testing with this card last night I managed to get it at least 1 game in every match. I immediately want to go up to a 2 of. It helps to filter draws early and late game once I’ve stabilized it lets me dig for gifts or removal as needed. I’ve always felt the biggest problem with gift decks is the lack of draw/selection so we draw the wrong half sometimes. If I can get a second one I'll either drop doom whisperer (depending on his performance) or the third collective brutality to slot it in the main.
The sideboard feels like a hot mess. Mostly of things I’ve had in older lists. There isn’t a conducive plan yet.
Unmoored Ego- Has been decent good for dealing combo, tron and low threat density decks like Arclight and death’s shadow. Not sure if it makes the cut long term though.
I’m planning on testing a worship in the board to take advantage of caryatid’s Hexproof to form a variant of troll worship lock. Still not 100% the match ups where that lock is better than Iona/ Elesh Norn though. Just need to pickup the card from my LGS/ or trade for it.
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Creeping Tar Pit
1x Field of Ruin
1x Flooded Strand
1x Forest
1x Ghost Quarter
1x Godless Shrine
2x Hallowed Fountain
1x Island
2x Overgrown Tomb
1x Plains
2x Polluted Delta
1x Snow-Covered Plains
1x Snow-Covered Swamp
2x Temple Garden
1x Verdant Catacombs
1x Watery Grave
2x Windswept Heath
Spot Removal (9)
2x Abrupt Decay
1x Assassin's Trophy
2x Detention Sphere
1x Maelstrom Pulse
3x Path to Exile
1x Liliana, Death's Majesty
1x Snapcaster Mage
1x Sun Titan
Self Discard (8)
1x Champion of Wits
3x Collective Brutality
4x Lingering Souls
Unburial Package (3)
1x Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1x Iona, Shield of Emeria
1x Unburial Rites
Wrath Package (3)
1x Day of Judgment
1x Supreme Verdict
1x Wrath of God
Value Cards (3)
1x Baneslayer Angel
1x Doom Whisperer
1x Search for Azcanta
Gifts (4)
4x Gifts Ungiven
Ramp (4)
4x Sylvan Caryatid
2x Damping Sphere
1x Eternal Witness
2x Knight of Autumn
2x Knight of the Reliquary
1x Liliana, the Last Hope
2x Nihil Spellbomb
1x Runed Halo
1x Settle the Wreckage
1x Unmoored Ego
1x Worm Harvest
1x Worship
Edit: Updated list with the sideboard I plan on testing.
4c Gifts Deck Stats: https://bit.ly/2XMPrlY
https://pucatrade.com/invite/gift/120495