I feel like Infect isnt all that bad for Scapeshift. We already play 4 Izzet Charm and 2-3 Pyroclasm. If it does get out of control we just start playing Lightning Bolt, which isnt really a bad thing.
I play MB Lightning Bolt, and it's still rough game 1. I generally won't mulligan for one unless I know I need to. They have lots and lots of answers to burn (Every pump spell, Apostle's Blessing). If they play Inkmoth Nexus, we can't tap out for ramp, Pyroclasm becomes dead, and we have no blockers. It's easily my worst MU, and I'll be boarding accordingly for it.
I play MB Lightning Bolt, and it's still rough game 1. I generally won't mulligan for one unless I know I need to. They have lots and lots of answers to burn (Every pump spell, Apostle's Blessing). If they play Inkmoth Nexus, we can't tap out for ramp, Pyroclasm becomes dead, and we have no blockers. It's easily my worst MU, and I'll be boarding accordingly for it.
*Edit* Really nice Sig image there Shoes.
I guess that is fair. I mean we have Tribe Elder that can black for value.
Still I can see it being a hard match.
Meloku is the best card in the deck and comes in for every matchup - literally. The only one where he's kind of loose is the mirror, but even then he's still acceptable as long as you aim counterspells at their ramp and play like a tempo deck with Snapcaster. He's required if they're on the Clutch version and have Slaughter Games.
The worst card in the sideboard is Jace, but he's the best card I could think of for filling the role I wanted. Mindsculptor would be perfect, but, well, you know. The only thing I would want to replace him with right now would be Vendilion Clique.
If Meloku is your best card... something is really, I mean, really wrong with your deck. But you are still having good results. Anyway this is what I dont agree: 4xSnapcaster - too much. 0 Peer tr Depths? I think you've been lucky finding your scapeshift, there's no other word. 2xSakura? Cmon man I see that you're running 4xSnapcaster but 2xSakura? Its a 4 of in my opinion.
Last, I agree that Jace is the worst card, I wouldnt run it... never.
Meloku is the best finisher and makes hate for Leyline, etc unneeded. Since you never know what kind of hate they're going to have, it always comes in. Obviously game one you don't have to deal with any of that save the odd Mindcensor.
I play four Snapcaster because he makes the combo, control, and Jund matchups way better than STE does. Elder can fog a guy and ramp, so can Snapcaster. Snapcaster can counter spells, act as extra cantrips to make Peer unneeded, buyback Cryptic Command, and kill creatures. He also has the all-important ability to attack them to 18 against RG Tron, UW Control w/o fetchlands, monoR, etc.
Farseek > STE with Snapcaster, still need a minimum of 10 ramp spells and STE is better than Rampant Growth.
I wouldn't call finding Scapeshift without Peer lucky. There are 13 cantrips in the deck plus four Snapcaster, who often is another one. All of the ramp thins the deck too.
But yeah, Jace is pretty awful. I just wanted to board into a control deck that can still one-card combo them out of the game for resiliency against hate.
Just lost in the top8 of the last Modern PE this week to Eggs after being triple Silenced in game 3 with the lethal Scapeshift in hand. Haven't made any changes to the list and Jace actually won me a game.
Just a small anecdote of a card I tested a little bit in a UGR scapeshift list that I ended up being a huge fan of.
I've found it's a really potent 1-2 of in scapeshift decks. It does everything you want to be doing in here - plays at instant speed, digs 4 deep for scapeshift, allows you to filter dead draws, and gives you positive card advantage.
When playing with serum visions, I found myself getting flooded without scapeshift in hand, otherwise having the scapeshift, but no protection too often. With thoughtflare, I figured if I could play 1-2 mid-game instant speed draw spells this could help solve the problem of flooding out, or drawing ramp spells with 8+ lands in play. Additionally, since it's instant speed, it will often force control decks to tap out to counter it, leaving them open to scapeshift as they waste their mana & counters on thoughtflare.
In a normal control deck, thoughtflare is decent, albeit a bit slow, but in here, with the ramp you have, it works perfect, and can often be cast as early as turn 3.
Just a small anecdote of a card I tested a little bit in a UGR scapeshift list that I ended up being a huge fan of.
I've found it's a really potent 1-2 of in scapeshift decks. It does everything you want to be doing in here - plays at instant speed, digs 4 deep for scapeshift, allows you to filter dead draws, and gives you positive card advantage.
When playing with serum visions, I found myself getting flooded without scapeshift in hand, otherwise having the scapeshift, but no protection too often. With thoughtflare, I figured if I could play 1-2 mid-game instant speed draw spells this could help solve the problem of flooding out, or drawing ramp spells with 8+ lands in play. Additionally, since it's instant speed, it will often force control decks to tap out to counter it, leaving them open to scapeshift as they waste their mana & counters on thoughtflare.
In a normal control deck, thoughtflare is decent, albeit a bit slow, but in here, with the ramp you have, it works perfect, and can often be cast as early as turn 3.
That's worth a try. I'd been trying Urban Evolution in the deck and just hated tapping out for the effect. Instant speed/better filtering at the cost of the ramp seems pretty good. I think I'll try this as a two of in place of Telling Time.
I've picked up Scapeshift again, I'll test out Thoughtflare as a 1-2 of in the upcoming week. I wish I had more sb slots, this deck can do so well against every deck with just a few card changes.
I just played a couple matches with thoughtflare as a 1-of in place of an explore, and I really liked having it available and I might make it a 2-of. I don't know if replacing explore was the correct decision though, it did feel like the weakest spell.
Is Remand in your budget? If not, then Mana Leak is a solid replacement for it. Solemn Simulacrum is also pretty good if you're expecting ground creatures swinging, but he's not great against combo decks so be wary.
I would suggest Gigadrowse over Blustersquall. Being able to EoT tap down lands against an opposing blue deck is a great way to protect Scapeshift, and it can lock down any annoying permanent. If you're worried about the blue cost, Flooded Grove is a good color fixer.
Anyone got any suggestions for RDW? My local meta has a lot of it and I'm not sure if that would be a problem match-up or not.
My latest list (Pre BBE/SS Bans) took out 4 Remands and 3 Cryptic Commands, brought in 2 Spellskite, 3 Obstinate Baloth, and 2 Spell Pierce. Spellskite is a hero in this matchup. Even if he just blocks and takes a Lightning Bolt he's done enough. Normally though I find it takes 2 spells from them, which really shifts the match in our favour. Be wary of Dismember though. Beyond that, don't crack Tribe-Elders until you either need the mana, or unless they can soak up a hit first. Also, win the die roll.
Quote from HawksSoc »
Hi thanks for the response yeah Remand should be good, would you suggest that alongside Leak or instead?
The removal of the fetches is vexing me a little, that leaves 4-6 land spots open, would you suggest just Evolving Wilds and its ilk for that spot? I also like the look of Gigadrowse. My meta does have a lot of creature swinginess (word?) so maybe Solemn could be worth a two of.
It depends on how many counters you're looking to run. I run 7 in my MB with 3 Spell Pierce in the side. I would start with 4 Remands, and then add from there. Izzet Charm is another good 'counter' to consider just for its versatility. Maybe a split of it and Mana Leak?
Post your list for me (Or PM if you prefer) and I can try to help with the land. Evolving Wilds could simply slow you down a turn, which is a pretty big deal.
Give Sad Robot a shot and let us know how it goes. The nice thing with him, he's an easy thing to side out against non-creature matchups where he doesn't shine.
While sleeving up the Thoughtflares to test tonight, I remembered that I had previously considered Harmonize. Flare digs 1 deeper but Harmonize is +2 cards opposed to Flare's +1 but it's also an instant whereas Harmonize is a sorcery.
I suppose I will have to test both.
You could also try Jace's Ingenuity I guess, it is also an instant.
Ingenuity is also good, but I like the fact that Thoughtflare digs deeper and allows you to filter cards that you don't need.
While sleeving up the Thoughtflares to test tonight, I remembered that I had previously considered Harmonize. Flare digs 1 deeper but Harmonize is +2 cards opposed to Flare's +1 but it's also an instant whereas Harmonize is a sorcery.
I suppose I will have to test both.
If you're playing counterspells in your deck, Harmonize is going to be 10x worse than thoughtflare. Instant speed matters, especially in decks that want to be casting cryptic commands, Remands, and other instant-speed spells. You also won't bait out countermagic nearly as effectively with harmonize as you would Thoughtflare.
Badd Business are you still playing Serum Visions? I hate that card in our deck, but Sleight of Hand is not great too. Can you post your list please?
I am, although I cut one of the visions for the Thoughtflare. I'm at work, but I can pretty much remember the list off the top of my head. I built this to be resistant to stuff that's good against scapeshift. One of the big problems I had with traditional scapeshift lists is that they had zero ways to win without resolving their namesake card... scapeshift. In here, if your shift gets hit with a slaughter games (or you simply can't find it) you can just kill your opponent with prismatic omen + valakuts (typically kills in 2 turns anyway). With muddle the mixture, you not only get an easy way to protect your shift, you also are essentially playing 5 copies of Prismatic Omen as well as a decent tutor package to gran silver bullets as needed.
Post board, you diversify your threats even more, making it much more difficult for your opponents to hate you out. Depending on the matchup, you bring in baloths, thragtusks, and cliques, or simply go with gigadrowse when you need to tap your opponent out. Against blood moons, leylines, nevermores, or other similar cards, you bring in a second echoing truth (another card that can be tutored with muddle).
I don't play cryptic command. I love cryptic, but I've won so many games against scapeshift opponents when playing control decks simply by tec-edging their flooded grove away making it uncastable. I would rather protect my combo with muddle, have a stronger manabase (that can play 4 valakuts to make omen relevant), and better game against tempo decks than live the dream of casting Cryptic without ever having to worry about it getting leaked, remanded, or pierced.
Also, another benefit of omen is that you can drop it pretty reliably on turn 2 against tempo / midrange decks, and they often will just lose to that. It's much easier for an opponent to disrupt scapeshift than it is for them to deal with a Prismatic omen.
Badd how does having only 9 mountains work for you? I run 11 and can't imagine running less than 10. It seems like that makes you too reliant on omen at that point, especially if the game goes long. I know I've had games that if I had drawn another mountain I wouldn't have been able to burst them down.
Badd how does having only 9 mountains work for you? I run 11 and can't imagine running less than 10. It seems like that makes you too reliant on omen at that point, especially if the game goes long. I know I've had games that if I had drawn another mountain I wouldn't have been able to burst them down.
It's not really a problem. Keep in mind, you're running 4x valakuts, so if you need to, you can scapeshift in 4 valakuts and 2 mountains (as long as you're over 6) to deal 24 damage. You just gotta figure out the math.
I guess my main point is, if you've put 9 mountains in play, your opponent is probably dead. If you have 8 mountains in play, you just shift away more lands and grab more valakuts so your last mountain can deal extra damage. If you get past that point and your opponent still isn't dead, you grab omen and start burning them off with fetchlands dealing 10+ damage each.
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I was wondering that myself, it seems like it would be better to run a second pyroclasm over a second firespout so you can tutor for it.
Blade Splicer
Kird Ape
Loam Lion
Merfolk with more than 1 lord (which is just about always)
Admittedly, it's not a ton, but I still like the relevance of being able to hit x3's for an added mana (which rarely matters against the decks it's relevant vs.). I guess it's just a personal preference.
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I play MB Lightning Bolt, and it's still rough game 1. I generally won't mulligan for one unless I know I need to. They have lots and lots of answers to burn (Every pump spell, Apostle's Blessing). If they play Inkmoth Nexus, we can't tap out for ramp, Pyroclasm becomes dead, and we have no blockers. It's easily my worst MU, and I'll be boarding accordingly for it.
*Edit* Really nice Sig image there Shoes.
GWBJunk TokensBWG
Modern
GURScapeshiftRUG
BGRDredgevineRGB
URSTORM!RU
UWTezzeret ControlWU
Legacy
BWStonebladeWB
BUGBUG ControlGUB
I guess that is fair. I mean we have Tribe Elder that can black for value.
Still I can see it being a hard match.
Haha thank you
I like it as well!
1 Breeding Pool
1 Flooded Grove
4 Steam Vents
4 Stomping Ground
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
4 Island
3 Mountain
2 Forest
2 Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 Farseek
4 Search for Tomorrow
2 Izzet Charm
2 Lightning Bolt
2 Pyroclasm
4 Remand
3 Cryptic Command
4 Scapeshift
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Meloku, the Clouded Mirror
2 Jace Beleren
2 Negate
1 Dispel
1 Counterflux
2 Obstinate Baloth
2 Sudden Shock
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Pyroclasm
Meloku is the best card in the deck and comes in for every matchup - literally. The only one where he's kind of loose is the mirror, but even then he's still acceptable as long as you aim counterspells at their ramp and play like a tempo deck with Snapcaster. He's required if they're on the Clutch version and have Slaughter Games.
The worst card in the sideboard is Jace, but he's the best card I could think of for filling the role I wanted. Mindsculptor would be perfect, but, well, you know. The only thing I would want to replace him with right now would be Vendilion Clique.
Meloku is the best finisher and makes hate for Leyline, etc unneeded. Since you never know what kind of hate they're going to have, it always comes in. Obviously game one you don't have to deal with any of that save the odd Mindcensor.
I play four Snapcaster because he makes the combo, control, and Jund matchups way better than STE does. Elder can fog a guy and ramp, so can Snapcaster. Snapcaster can counter spells, act as extra cantrips to make Peer unneeded, buyback Cryptic Command, and kill creatures. He also has the all-important ability to attack them to 18 against RG Tron, UW Control w/o fetchlands, monoR, etc.
Farseek > STE with Snapcaster, still need a minimum of 10 ramp spells and STE is better than Rampant Growth.
I wouldn't call finding Scapeshift without Peer lucky. There are 13 cantrips in the deck plus four Snapcaster, who often is another one. All of the ramp thins the deck too.
But yeah, Jace is pretty awful. I just wanted to board into a control deck that can still one-card combo them out of the game for resiliency against hate.
I've found it's a really potent 1-2 of in scapeshift decks. It does everything you want to be doing in here - plays at instant speed, digs 4 deep for scapeshift, allows you to filter dead draws, and gives you positive card advantage.
When playing with serum visions, I found myself getting flooded without scapeshift in hand, otherwise having the scapeshift, but no protection too often. With thoughtflare, I figured if I could play 1-2 mid-game instant speed draw spells this could help solve the problem of flooding out, or drawing ramp spells with 8+ lands in play. Additionally, since it's instant speed, it will often force control decks to tap out to counter it, leaving them open to scapeshift as they waste their mana & counters on thoughtflare.
In a normal control deck, thoughtflare is decent, albeit a bit slow, but in here, with the ramp you have, it works perfect, and can often be cast as early as turn 3.
That's worth a try. I'd been trying Urban Evolution in the deck and just hated tapping out for the effect. Instant speed/better filtering at the cost of the ramp seems pretty good. I think I'll try this as a two of in place of Telling Time.
GWBJunk TokensBWG
Modern
GURScapeshiftRUG
BGRDredgevineRGB
URSTORM!RU
UWTezzeret ControlWU
Legacy
BWStonebladeWB
BUGBUG ControlGUB
UWRasputin DreamweaverUW
UWBSen TripletsUWB
I would suggest Gigadrowse over Blustersquall. Being able to EoT tap down lands against an opposing blue deck is a great way to protect Scapeshift, and it can lock down any annoying permanent. If you're worried about the blue cost, Flooded Grove is a good color fixer.
GWBJunk TokensBWG
Modern
GURScapeshiftRUG
BGRDredgevineRGB
URSTORM!RU
UWTezzeret ControlWU
Legacy
BWStonebladeWB
BUGBUG ControlGUB
UWRasputin DreamweaverUW
UWBSen TripletsUWB
My latest list (Pre BBE/SS Bans) took out 4 Remands and 3 Cryptic Commands, brought in 2 Spellskite, 3 Obstinate Baloth, and 2 Spell Pierce. Spellskite is a hero in this matchup. Even if he just blocks and takes a Lightning Bolt he's done enough. Normally though I find it takes 2 spells from them, which really shifts the match in our favour. Be wary of Dismember though. Beyond that, don't crack Tribe-Elders until you either need the mana, or unless they can soak up a hit first. Also, win the die roll.
It depends on how many counters you're looking to run. I run 7 in my MB with 3 Spell Pierce in the side. I would start with 4 Remands, and then add from there. Izzet Charm is another good 'counter' to consider just for its versatility. Maybe a split of it and Mana Leak?
Post your list for me (Or PM if you prefer) and I can try to help with the land. Evolving Wilds could simply slow you down a turn, which is a pretty big deal.
Give Sad Robot a shot and let us know how it goes. The nice thing with him, he's an easy thing to side out against non-creature matchups where he doesn't shine.
GWBJunk TokensBWG
Modern
GURScapeshiftRUG
BGRDredgevineRGB
URSTORM!RU
UWTezzeret ControlWU
Legacy
BWStonebladeWB
BUGBUG ControlGUB
I suppose I will have to test both.
UWRasputin DreamweaverUW
UWBSen TripletsUWB
Ingenuity is also good, but I like the fact that Thoughtflare digs deeper and allows you to filter cards that you don't need.
If you're playing counterspells in your deck, Harmonize is going to be 10x worse than thoughtflare. Instant speed matters, especially in decks that want to be casting cryptic commands, Remands, and other instant-speed spells. You also won't bait out countermagic nearly as effectively with harmonize as you would Thoughtflare.
I am, although I cut one of the visions for the Thoughtflare. I'm at work, but I can pretty much remember the list off the top of my head. I built this to be resistant to stuff that's good against scapeshift. One of the big problems I had with traditional scapeshift lists is that they had zero ways to win without resolving their namesake card... scapeshift. In here, if your shift gets hit with a slaughter games (or you simply can't find it) you can just kill your opponent with prismatic omen + valakuts (typically kills in 2 turns anyway). With muddle the mixture, you not only get an easy way to protect your shift, you also are essentially playing 5 copies of Prismatic Omen as well as a decent tutor package to gran silver bullets as needed.
Post board, you diversify your threats even more, making it much more difficult for your opponents to hate you out. Depending on the matchup, you bring in baloths, thragtusks, and cliques, or simply go with gigadrowse when you need to tap your opponent out. Against blood moons, leylines, nevermores, or other similar cards, you bring in a second echoing truth (another card that can be tutored with muddle).
I don't play cryptic command. I love cryptic, but I've won so many games against scapeshift opponents when playing control decks simply by tec-edging their flooded grove away making it uncastable. I would rather protect my combo with muddle, have a stronger manabase (that can play 4 valakuts to make omen relevant), and better game against tempo decks than live the dream of casting Cryptic without ever having to worry about it getting leaked, remanded, or pierced.
Also, another benefit of omen is that you can drop it pretty reliably on turn 2 against tempo / midrange decks, and they often will just lose to that. It's much easier for an opponent to disrupt scapeshift than it is for them to deal with a Prismatic omen.
4x Scapeshift
2x Prismatic Omen (Muddle the Mixture)
Protection / Utility
3x Muddle the Mixture
2x Izzet Charm
2x Firespout
1x Pyroclasm (Muddle the Mixture)
1x Echoing Truth (Muddle the Mixture)
Ramp / Acceleration
4x Explore
4x Search for Tomorrow (Muddle the Mixture)
4x Sakura Tribe Elder
1x Oracle of Mul Daya
3x Peer Through Depths
3x Serum Visions
1x Thoughtflare
Lands
4x Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
4x Misty Rainforest
2x Breeding Pool
4x Steam Vents
4x Stomping Ground
2x Island
2x Forest
1x Mountain
2x Scalding Tarn
1x Thragtusk
2x Obstinate Baloth
2x Spellskite
1x Vendilion Clique
2x Gigadrowse
1x Ancient Grudge
1x Dispel
1x Negate
1x Firespout
1x Primeval Titan
1x Echoing Truth
1x Repeal
Didn't even think of it, thanks.
I have a feeling I will probably just end up settling with Peer Through Depths in the end.
UWRasputin DreamweaverUW
UWBSen TripletsUWB
It's not really a problem. Keep in mind, you're running 4x valakuts, so if you need to, you can scapeshift in 4 valakuts and 2 mountains (as long as you're over 6) to deal 24 damage. You just gotta figure out the math.
I guess my main point is, if you've put 9 mountains in play, your opponent is probably dead. If you have 8 mountains in play, you just shift away more lands and grab more valakuts so your last mountain can deal extra damage. If you get past that point and your opponent still isn't dead, you grab omen and start burning them off with fetchlands dealing 10+ damage each.
UWRasputin DreamweaverUW
UWBSen TripletsUWB
Blade Splicer
Kird Ape
Loam Lion
Merfolk with more than 1 lord (which is just about always)
Admittedly, it's not a ton, but I still like the relevance of being able to hit x3's for an added mana (which rarely matters against the decks it's relevant vs.). I guess it's just a personal preference.