I'm inclined to disagree heavily here. Remand is one of the reasons why we had a good Control and Midrange matchup in the first place. Relic is in comparsion very low impact there. We are also naturally good against strategies that rely primarily on their graveyard like Dredge, Hollow One (with Madcap Experiment). But also decks that have it as a secondary engine like Company decks with Knights and Eternal Witness, Snapcaster Mage decks (if you have 4 Remand) and even Tarmogoyf decks.
While Remand is obviously bad against Humans I think that matchup is about stopping their tempo advantage first and foremost while being able to advance our own game plan at the same time.
I see more use of Explore as a 2 mana cantrip effect than Relic.
I'm not sure if I already responded to you in the Reddit thread or not, but since this was posted a day ago, I'll assume I missed it.
Remand is actively good vs control and ramp decks. Remand is miserable vs every aggro deck. I'll assume we can agree on that. Ramp and control are some of our best matchups just by nature of ramping and having multiple instant kill threats.
Vs mid-range, I'll assume we mean thoughtseize and eldrazi decks, if you mean company, those decks are almost a bye anyway, and it's not like relic is awful there anyway.
Vs thoughtseize decks the whole game plan is to rush out 7 lands and start threatening the topdeck scapeshift. Izzet charm contributes to this plan, relic contribute to this plan (by giving you delayed topdecks and shrinking goyfs, not to mention turning off surgical), remand doesn't. If you're on the draw, you very well might never have a decent remand target, and your opponent can just kill you with what they've played. That is a DISASTER. You also don't want to be forgoing your ramp to hold up remand, if they cast Inquisition in that spot, its not going to feel great. The only spell in Jund that actually gives a tempo advantage when remanded is Liliana. Remand is good when you hit it, but that just doesn't happen often enough.
Eldrazi has cavern so often that remand may as well be a 2 Mana cycle that forces me to stop ramping in order to just get a different card. And again, if they don't cast something because they have enough board presence already, that's a DISASTER.
Remand is even worse than relic in some of it's best matchups, like KCI and storm, Those matchups are one of the big reasons you don't want to just play explore, because remand was crucial to winning these matchups and you need something that can carry the weight alongside Izzet charm.
Blue based control is such a good matchup that remand is honestly overkill, you can just lean on your huge Mana advantage, izzet charm, cryptic, and relic shutting down snapcaster.
I love remand philosophically. It's one of my favorite cards ever, I wish it was better. But when the whole world is playing vials, caverns, and cards that cost less than 3, it's time to let it go.
I think that BGx is just about as lopsided as he makes it out to be. Can you lose? Obviously. Almost every time I've lost however was due to a Liliana on turn 3. Izzet Charm is conveniently very good against that.
@FNMWorldChampion it's pretty obvious that you're way more of an aggressive BtL Shift deck that most lists. Can I get some insight on why you ended up going aggressive, and why you're not playing TitanShift if that's the goal?
I'm still hanging around with a rather control heavy list. One of these days I'll end up testing with yours. I definitely like dropping Remand. I'm unsure if I want to add Farseek (I've long said that turn 3 Cryptic Command is the best part of the deck) especially since I have rougher mana costs than most lists, or Izzet Charm.
Why Black over White?
I hate Repeal almost every time I play it. Sure, I hate Path sometimes, but I've always felt I hate Repeal more.
I've chatted with CJ briefly about his choices over the past 2 weeks, I'll be trying this list (give or take a card -- he wasn't 100% sold on the Obstinate Baloth so might try something else there, not sure yet) at Hartford so I'll be sure to report back. In limited testing so far it's been great, haven't missed Remand
Another question if your in touch with him : is only 1 breeding pool enough with 4 cryptic command ? and isn’t relic to clunky in MD ? thanks ! ^^
So the manabase is pretty close to air tight in my opinion. (Although I could definitely be sold on a 4th stomping ground over the cinder glade.) Here are my rules for the Mana base:
2 valakuts, 10 mountains at leat 2 of them basic for ghost quarter.
At least 3 basic islands for cryptic maindeck bloodmoons.
A way for Misty, the ramp spells, and hunting Wilds to search up every color.
As many green sources as you can fit to reduce Mulligans as much as possible in this 9-card combo deck.
That being said, if you really want to, you can cut a basic Forest for a breeding pool, but I think you're just dealing unnecessary damage to yourself, and making it harder to beat blood moons. If you are ramping on turn 2 like you are supposed to, I don't think cryptic is that difficult to cast by turn 4 or by turn 3 with some sacrifices. That's a decision that needs to be made in context of course. The extra ramp spells do a lot for color fixing and it's important to not forget that.
Relic is less clunky than remand in almost every matchup, except mono green Tron, and there the farseeks help enough there that I'm ok with the exchange.
Thanks , for the answers ! Antoher quick one : isn’t pia and kiran nalaar a better choice for the baloth MD ? Forthe purpose of gainning us time ?
I've only recently picked up the deck, but I think I prefer Baloth here over Pia and Kirin due to (1) not wanting to fetch two red sources when possible and (2) baloth is sooo much better against Hollow One (flip in off inquiry and able to block/kill hollow one himself)
I've been grinding RUGw BTL online for a bit now and have two problems that repeatedly come up: (1) hands that would be incredible if they had a green source and (2) occasional clunkiness with the manabase - either being tough to get to UUU for cryptic or to get 4 colors for BTL - especially by turn 3 or 4. This gets worse when you need UUUU for cryptic+snap or cryptic+BTL, or cryptic+izzetcharm/remand/dispel. See also: when you draw the wrath/damnation and don't have double W or B.
I'm going to try testing a solution to both - 2x manamorphose. It seems like something of a natural inclusion here, giving us a pseudo-green source in opening hands, smoothing for turn 3-4 BTL with 4 colors, smoothing cryptic mana (and letting you cryptic with like GRWU up), giving us an out from under a blood moon that we were unprepared for, and letting us play essentially a 58 card deck.
Downsides I expect - plays worse under Thalia, can lead to some difficult mulligan decisions if you have 2 in the opener or 1+land.
This is the list I've been tweaking for a local 42 person Modern League that starts on Monday. I was testing a list without Remand but also without as many ramp spells as this one is running, and it felt terrible - after adding more ramp spells, I don't miss remand at all. With less ramp in the deck, remand buys you a turn (though that happens less and less with how fast the format has gotten), in which you can hit a land drop and then cast Scapeshift. Why not just ramp and win a turn sooner instead?
A lot of the deck is pretty locked in, the only slots I am still playing with are the Anger in the main, the Relics, and the cards for the Repeal/Into the Roil slot. The logic on Into the Roil is that it's better at bouncing Delve creatures, and if I am Blood Moon'd in game 1 I can find a card to bounce it off of a Bring to Light with all non-basics + 1 Island and 1 Forest. Not having to have the basic swamp in play to be able to BTL for a Cryptic is nice.
I know some players aren't too hot on Jace, and while he is not awesome in some matchups, I expect a lot of control and midrange in the league.
The Relics have been decent, not stellar all the time but when they're good they're great and when they're bad they cantrip. I did lose a match with an old build of this deck when someone Surgical Extraction'd my Valakut, and I like that they answer that line.
I'm posting here because I want people's thoughts on my sideboard - I'm not running the Madcap combo because, after round 1, everyone's decklists will be public to eachother. I feel like losing out on the surprise factor makes that plan way worse.
When I realized that I only have 3 cards main and 1 side with a CMC of 1 (and one of those is an X spell), I started thinking about Chalice of the Void out of the board. I would obviously have to cut some cards for it, but there's been a recent uptick in Death's Shadow decks here and I am trying to figure out a sideboard plan that's good against them. I could run 2 Negate and cut the Dispel, and in the matchups where both Relic and Chalice are good (Storm, KCI, Hollow One(?)... any others?) I am probably not too upset if I can't play my Relic because I've got a Chalice on 1 - it'll be hard for my opponent to win through that anyway.
Has anyone tried Chalice in the board? If so, how was it? Would it be worth bringing in vs. Humans even though they have vial?
This is the list I've been tweaking for a local 42 person Modern League that starts on Monday. I was testing a list without Remand but also without as many ramp spells as this one is running, and it felt terrible - after adding more ramp spells, I don't miss remand at all. With less ramp in the deck, remand buys you a turn (though that happens less and less with how fast the format has gotten), in which you can hit a land drop and then cast Scapeshift. Why not just ramp and win a turn sooner instead?
A lot of the deck is pretty locked in, the only slots I am still playing with are the Anger in the main, the Relics, and the cards for the Repeal/Into the Roil slot. The logic on Into the Roil is that it's better at bouncing Delve creatures, and if I am Blood Moon'd in game 1 I can find a card to bounce it off of a Bring to Light with all non-basics + 1 Island and 1 Forest. Not having to have the basic swamp in play to be able to BTL for a Cryptic is nice.
I know some players aren't too hot on Jace, and while he is not awesome in some matchups, I expect a lot of control and midrange in the league.
The Relics have been decent, not stellar all the time but when they're good they're great and when they're bad they cantrip. I did lose a match with an old build of this deck when someone Surgical Extraction'd my Valakut, and I like that they answer that line.
I'm posting here because I want people's thoughts on my sideboard - I'm not running the Madcap combo because, after round 1, everyone's decklists will be public to eachother. I feel like losing out on the surprise factor makes that plan way worse.
When I realized that I only have 3 cards main and 1 side with a CMC of 1 (and one of those is an X spell), I started thinking about Chalice of the Void out of the board. I would obviously have to cut some cards for it, but there's been a recent uptick in Death's Shadow decks here and I am trying to figure out a sideboard plan that's good against them. I could run 2 Negate and cut the Dispel, and in the matchups where both Relic and Chalice are good (Storm, KCI, Hollow One(?)... any others?) I am probably not too upset if I can't play my Relic because I've got a Chalice on 1 - it'll be hard for my opponent to win through that anyway.
Has anyone tried Chalice in the board? If so, how was it? Would it be worth bringing in vs. Humans even though they have vial?
Quite late replying here - I hope your league starts well!
I'm completely with you on ramp over remand, and I like the one of roil a lot for just that reason. The only time it's really sad to have is when you're bouncing a death's shadow or vial, and I think the added easy of bouncing hollow one/delve threats is probably a good call.
Jace I haven't had much luck with, but I'll be interested to hear your experience.
I was pretty underwhelmed by the relics as well, with the "save me from surgical" line being the most impressive thing about them.
As to Chalice, I'm curious if you decided to use them - I don't like them here at all really. They're pretty weak against Humans due to both cavern and vial, and while they are pretty great against storm and KCI, I feel like you're better off with damping sphere there.
I didn't end up running Chalice - Ran exactly the list I posted, -1 Chameleon Colossus -1 Maelstrom Pulse in the board, +1 Baloth +1 Disdainful Stroke.
Won my first match super easily, my opponent had 5 cards in his 75 that mattered - 1 Boil side, 4 Spreading Seas main.
I know there's a few Hollow One and Storm players, so I like Relic as a freeby card against them in the main.
So far, it's been fine. I really really really like not having Remand. I miss having a second Verdict periodically. Eternal Witness is mediocre, much like Snapcaster Mage. Haven't gotten to use it a bunch yet to solidify my opinion. As others have said, Relic isn't that great. It's mediocre 90% of the time. Sideboard is chill, but will probably play Shatterstorm over Creeping Corrosion in the future.
Could see dropping Relics for a verdict/farseek/charm split. I like the Charms and Farseeks a good bit so far.
As far as going straight RUG, if you're not worried about the Jace nonbo, I suggest trying Hour of Devastation as I've found it to be rather good.
Yes, this is a double post. It's been several weeks.
I'm trying to get my list solidified before I leave for SCG Con. This is my current list https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/681057#paper . Since last time, I dropped the two Relic of Progenitus for a second Supreme Verdict and getting back the Canopy Vista. I really am liking Izzet Charm, but I don't think it warrants a fourth copy.
Eternal Witness has been better than Snapcaster Mage. I'm liking it pretty well so far. At the absolute worst, my wallet likes it better.
My only big issue is that I feel *unfavored* against blue decks with this version. After playing with 4 Remand for so long I was used to crushing blue based control, but now I'm dreading playing against it. Obviously I could start shoving Remands back in, but that doesn't seem quite right. The 3rd Path to Exile, the 26th land (whichever that one would be), Eternal Witness, and the 3rd Farseek are the loosest cards in the decklist, I feel. Any advice there?
I really like having the simple sideboard. It's nice. Loosest sideboard card is the 4th Baloth. Could end up as a Chameleon Colossus, a Crumble to Dust, or a Glen Elendra Archmage. In particular, that last one seems interesting to me. Anyone have experience with it?
I have been playing the BtL version and really like it. I think the big question for the deck is the black or white splash. I think it is a meta call. Black gives you some insane tools in Abrupt decay and Maelstrom pulse. White gives you Timely reinforcements. I think the black splash is much better in an open meta. I also love Sweltering suns in the main over Anger. The exile clause is not super relevant, and I like the cycling upside in matches where it doesn't matter.
I want to test the white version with Teferi and see if a turn 3 or 4 Teferi is good or not ;).
I have been having success recently with the following list. I could see cutting two Jaces for more bullets and be more of an "all-in" combo deck.
Teferi doesn't make as much sense as Jace does, IMO, as the untapped lands generally don't matter the most since we're already ahead on mana.
Just wanted to say I played at SCG Atlanta Open and Classic. Unlike last time I bicycled to a major magic tournament, I did rather poorly, with a 3-6 record in both. All my matches were very close, but it just wasn't quite there, generally needing to draw the Scapeshift and not doing it. I won at least a single game in all but 2 matches between the two events, so clearly the deck is close. My game win rate was right around 50%. Decklist: https://deckbox.org/sets/1712264 If I were to play it against I'd want the fourth Baloth as Baloth + Anger is incredibly hard for creature decks to beat. I couldn't find the fourth before I left to bike down to SCG Con, so I just played 3.
I also played the White Splash Scapeshift Mirror Match during the Classic. I lost, and he pulled a 0-3 into a 6-3. GJ for him!
To reiterate the problems I felt, I felt like I had to get a boardwipe with my Bring to Light too often, which left me without a way to win quickly. As such, I'm planning on swapping things around and trying out something I've always wanted to try but never had the guts to do: Glittering Wish Scapeshift. By adding 2 more win cons that can still find board wipes when needed I'm hoping it will add the extra consistency I was lacking. https://deckbox.org/sets/1871593 It also gives me out to turn 0 double Leyline of Sanctity that I lost to from Bogles, and alternate win conditions that are hard to kill are easily accessible if I lose the Valakut combo. The only notable exclusion on that front that I can think of is Geist of Saint Traft. I am unsure what I need to do to the mana to fix it up for a Glittering Wish. Testing will follow. Currently I'm planning on playing KCI or Affinity for SCG Philadelphia.
After playing a bunch with Eternal Witness a bunch more, I'm not switching back to Snapcaster Mage. I played a single game where the difference could have mattered (against Infect) and every other time Witness was as good or better. I won an entire game against Bogles by Cryptic locking them, and returned Obstinate Baloths and Misty Rainforests as well as spells. It seems much much better to me.
Recent decks on mtgtop8 are using Black over White as the 4th color of BtL Scapeshift decks.
Black does, indeed, provides us some nice spells, such as Abrupt Decay and Slaughter Games. Also, Jace, the Mind Sculptor is getting replaced on those lists as well. How about the inclusion of Nicol Bolas, the Ravager as the deck's alternate kill condition, replacing JTMS?
Seems a good creature to add, because Bolas provides a nice 4/4 body with a discard. And 7 mana is very easy to get by mid/late game, so transform him won't be much of na issue. As for his planeswalker's package, I say that draw 2 extra cards every turn is too sweet to pass and the "-3" and "-4" abilities have a good impact, depending on the matchup. And Bolas is "fetchable" with BtL, while JTMS is not.
Putting BTL Scapeshift together, thinking about the manabase. I saw CJ having success in Toledo I think with a slightly different manabase and I'm pondering over this :
So there are a number of issues. First off, budget limits? Wooded Foothills is almost strictly worse than Misty Rainforest or Windswept Heath in the deck. I generally find basic Forest to be fetched than Plains or Island so I'd play more Foothills over the Strands if I could.
2 Hallowed Fountain is too many. The deck is (generally) really light on white and only needs 1 for the most part.
2 Sheltered Thicket is nice, but entering tapped is a real cost for your green sources. You're far too low on turn 1 green sources for your Search for Tomorrow. If you can afford 3 more Stomping Grounds, do it.
Sacred Foundry is always a kinda meh card. You rarely need red and white mana unless you're running multiple wraths and angers. It can definitely be useful so I won't really hate on it.
You need a Temple Garden, or at least a Canopy Vista.
Can we get the full list? It really helps for us making observations.
Recent decks on mtgtop8 are using Black over White as the 4th color of BtL Scapeshift decks.
Black does, indeed, provides us some nice spells, such as Abrupt Decay and Slaughter Games. Also, Jace, the Mind Sculptor is getting replaced on those lists as well. How about the inclusion of Nicol Bolas, the Ravager as the deck's alternate kill condition, replacing JTMS?
Seems a good creature to add, because Bolas provides a nice 4/4 body with a discard. And 7 mana is very easy to get by mid/late game, so transform him won't be much of na issue. As for his planeswalker's package, I say that draw 2 extra cards every turn is too sweet to pass and the "-3" and "-4" abilities have a good impact, depending on the matchup. And Bolas is "fetchable" with BtL, while JTMS is not.
Regards,
bitbroosher.
Hey, glad to see some new people in on here. It appears that all the old regulars died or something.
So Bolas is another fair deck win condition you can play out of the sideboard. While I don't think it's bad, I feel there are better options. Maindeck is almost definitely off the table as it turns on their removal. Generally, you only need alt win cons g2-3 anyway. It's not a bad option, I'm just not sure it's the best choice.
Jace is getting replaced because he's fragile and the deck can't generally protect him well. Regrettably, I've not tested with him much so I don't know much more than that.
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I'm not sure if I already responded to you in the Reddit thread or not, but since this was posted a day ago, I'll assume I missed it.
Remand is actively good vs control and ramp decks. Remand is miserable vs every aggro deck. I'll assume we can agree on that. Ramp and control are some of our best matchups just by nature of ramping and having multiple instant kill threats.
Vs mid-range, I'll assume we mean thoughtseize and eldrazi decks, if you mean company, those decks are almost a bye anyway, and it's not like relic is awful there anyway.
Vs thoughtseize decks the whole game plan is to rush out 7 lands and start threatening the topdeck scapeshift. Izzet charm contributes to this plan, relic contribute to this plan (by giving you delayed topdecks and shrinking goyfs, not to mention turning off surgical), remand doesn't. If you're on the draw, you very well might never have a decent remand target, and your opponent can just kill you with what they've played. That is a DISASTER. You also don't want to be forgoing your ramp to hold up remand, if they cast Inquisition in that spot, its not going to feel great. The only spell in Jund that actually gives a tempo advantage when remanded is Liliana. Remand is good when you hit it, but that just doesn't happen often enough.
Eldrazi has cavern so often that remand may as well be a 2 Mana cycle that forces me to stop ramping in order to just get a different card. And again, if they don't cast something because they have enough board presence already, that's a DISASTER.
Remand is even worse than relic in some of it's best matchups, like KCI and storm, Those matchups are one of the big reasons you don't want to just play explore, because remand was crucial to winning these matchups and you need something that can carry the weight alongside Izzet charm.
Blue based control is such a good matchup that remand is honestly overkill, you can just lean on your huge Mana advantage, izzet charm, cryptic, and relic shutting down snapcaster.
I love remand philosophically. It's one of my favorite cards ever, I wish it was better. But when the whole world is playing vials, caverns, and cards that cost less than 3, it's time to let it go.
@FNMWorldChampion it's pretty obvious that you're way more of an aggressive BtL Shift deck that most lists. Can I get some insight on why you ended up going aggressive, and why you're not playing TitanShift if that's the goal?
I'm still hanging around with a rather control heavy list. One of these days I'll end up testing with yours. I definitely like dropping Remand. I'm unsure if I want to add Farseek (I've long said that turn 3 Cryptic Command is the best part of the deck) especially since I have rougher mana costs than most lists, or Izzet Charm.
Why Black over White?
I hate Repeal almost every time I play it. Sure, I hate Path sometimes, but I've always felt I hate Repeal more.
Thanks , for the answers ! Antoher quick one : isn’t pia and kiran nalaar a better choice for the baloth MD ? Forthe purpose of gainning us time ?
I'm going to try testing a solution to both - 2x manamorphose. It seems like something of a natural inclusion here, giving us a pseudo-green source in opening hands, smoothing for turn 3-4 BTL with 4 colors, smoothing cryptic mana (and letting you cryptic with like GRWU up), giving us an out from under a blood moon that we were unprepared for, and letting us play essentially a 58 card deck.
Downsides I expect - plays worse under Thalia, can lead to some difficult mulligan decisions if you have 2 in the opener or 1+land.
I'm curious if anyone has tested this before?
Would definitely give that more consideration if Wrath effects weren't so very well positioned right now.
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
4 Steam Vents
3 Stomping Ground
1 Cinder Glade
2 Mountain
2 Forest
3 Island
1 Swamp
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Breeding Pool
1 Flooded Grove
BTL Package:
4 Bring to Light
3 Scapeshift
1 Damnation
1 Anger of the Gods
1 Hunting Wilds
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 Search for Tomorrow
3 Farseek
Other Spells:
4 Cryptic Command
4 Izzet Charm
1 Repeal
1 Into the Roil
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Relic of Progenitus
BTL Targets:
1 Slaughter Games
1 Crumble to Dust
1 Anger of the Gods
1 Glen-Elendra Archmage
1 Shatterstorm
Creatures:
2 Obstinate Baloth
1 Chameleon Colossus
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Krosan Grip
1 Destructive Revelry
1 Maelstrom Pulse
Counterspells:
1 Dispel
1 Negate
This is the list I've been tweaking for a local 42 person Modern League that starts on Monday. I was testing a list without Remand but also without as many ramp spells as this one is running, and it felt terrible - after adding more ramp spells, I don't miss remand at all. With less ramp in the deck, remand buys you a turn (though that happens less and less with how fast the format has gotten), in which you can hit a land drop and then cast Scapeshift. Why not just ramp and win a turn sooner instead?
A lot of the deck is pretty locked in, the only slots I am still playing with are the Anger in the main, the Relics, and the cards for the Repeal/Into the Roil slot. The logic on Into the Roil is that it's better at bouncing Delve creatures, and if I am Blood Moon'd in game 1 I can find a card to bounce it off of a Bring to Light with all non-basics + 1 Island and 1 Forest. Not having to have the basic swamp in play to be able to BTL for a Cryptic is nice.
I know some players aren't too hot on Jace, and while he is not awesome in some matchups, I expect a lot of control and midrange in the league.
The Relics have been decent, not stellar all the time but when they're good they're great and when they're bad they cantrip. I did lose a match with an old build of this deck when someone Surgical Extraction'd my Valakut, and I like that they answer that line.
I'm posting here because I want people's thoughts on my sideboard - I'm not running the Madcap combo because, after round 1, everyone's decklists will be public to eachother. I feel like losing out on the surprise factor makes that plan way worse.
When I realized that I only have 3 cards main and 1 side with a CMC of 1 (and one of those is an X spell), I started thinking about Chalice of the Void out of the board. I would obviously have to cut some cards for it, but there's been a recent uptick in Death's Shadow decks here and I am trying to figure out a sideboard plan that's good against them. I could run 2 Negate and cut the Dispel, and in the matchups where both Relic and Chalice are good (Storm, KCI, Hollow One(?)... any others?) I am probably not too upset if I can't play my Relic because I've got a Chalice on 1 - it'll be hard for my opponent to win through that anyway.
Has anyone tried Chalice in the board? If so, how was it? Would it be worth bringing in vs. Humans even though they have vial?
Quite late replying here - I hope your league starts well!
I'm completely with you on ramp over remand, and I like the one of roil a lot for just that reason. The only time it's really sad to have is when you're bouncing a death's shadow or vial, and I think the added easy of bouncing hollow one/delve threats is probably a good call.
Jace I haven't had much luck with, but I'll be interested to hear your experience.
I was pretty underwhelmed by the relics as well, with the "save me from surgical" line being the most impressive thing about them.
As to Chalice, I'm curious if you decided to use them - I don't like them here at all really. They're pretty weak against Humans due to both cavern and vial, and while they are pretty great against storm and KCI, I feel like you're better off with damping sphere there.
Good luck though, would love a report back!
Won my first match super easily, my opponent had 5 cards in his 75 that mattered - 1 Boil side, 4 Spreading Seas main.
I know there's a few Hollow One and Storm players, so I like Relic as a freeby card against them in the main.
So far, it's been fine. I really really really like not having Remand. I miss having a second Verdict periodically. Eternal Witness is mediocre, much like Snapcaster Mage. Haven't gotten to use it a bunch yet to solidify my opinion. As others have said, Relic isn't that great. It's mediocre 90% of the time. Sideboard is chill, but will probably play Shatterstorm over Creeping Corrosion in the future.
Could see dropping Relics for a verdict/farseek/charm split. I like the Charms and Farseeks a good bit so far.
As far as going straight RUG, if you're not worried about the Jace nonbo, I suggest trying Hour of Devastation as I've found it to be rather good.
I'm trying to get my list solidified before I leave for SCG Con. This is my current list https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/681057#paper . Since last time, I dropped the two Relic of Progenitus for a second Supreme Verdict and getting back the Canopy Vista. I really am liking Izzet Charm, but I don't think it warrants a fourth copy.
Eternal Witness has been better than Snapcaster Mage. I'm liking it pretty well so far. At the absolute worst, my wallet likes it better.
My only big issue is that I feel *unfavored* against blue decks with this version. After playing with 4 Remand for so long I was used to crushing blue based control, but now I'm dreading playing against it. Obviously I could start shoving Remands back in, but that doesn't seem quite right. The 3rd Path to Exile, the 26th land (whichever that one would be), Eternal Witness, and the 3rd Farseek are the loosest cards in the decklist, I feel. Any advice there?
I really like having the simple sideboard. It's nice. Loosest sideboard card is the 4th Baloth. Could end up as a Chameleon Colossus, a Crumble to Dust, or a Glen Elendra Archmage. In particular, that last one seems interesting to me. Anyone have experience with it?
What do you guys think about dragonmaster outcast in scapeshift decks? We already have the mana ramp. Do you think it's viable? Has anyone tried it?
I want to test the white version with Teferi and see if a turn 3 or 4 Teferi is good or not ;).
I have been having success recently with the following list. I could see cutting two Jaces for more bullets and be more of an "all-in" combo deck.
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Snapcaster Mage
Spells: 29
4 Bring to Light
4 Search for Tomorrow
3 Cryptic Command
3 Remand
3 Lightning Bolt
2 Izzet Charm
2 Farseek
2 Jace, The mind sculptor
2 Scapeshift
1 Damnation
1 Sweltering Suns
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Steam Vents
3 Island
3 Stomping Grounds
2 Forest
2 Breeding Pool
2 Mountain
2 Valakut, The Molten Pinnacle
1 Sunken Hollow
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Cinder Glade
1 Swamp
3 obstinate baloth
1 platinum emperion
1 madcap experiments
1 shatterstorm
2 naturalize
1 crumble to dust
1 abrade
1 anger of the gods
1 Slaughter games
2 dispel
1 negate
Just wanted to say I played at SCG Atlanta Open and Classic. Unlike last time I bicycled to a major magic tournament, I did rather poorly, with a 3-6 record in both. All my matches were very close, but it just wasn't quite there, generally needing to draw the Scapeshift and not doing it. I won at least a single game in all but 2 matches between the two events, so clearly the deck is close. My game win rate was right around 50%. Decklist: https://deckbox.org/sets/1712264 If I were to play it against I'd want the fourth Baloth as Baloth + Anger is incredibly hard for creature decks to beat. I couldn't find the fourth before I left to bike down to SCG Con, so I just played 3.
I also played the White Splash Scapeshift Mirror Match during the Classic. I lost, and he pulled a 0-3 into a 6-3. GJ for him!
To reiterate the problems I felt, I felt like I had to get a boardwipe with my Bring to Light too often, which left me without a way to win quickly. As such, I'm planning on swapping things around and trying out something I've always wanted to try but never had the guts to do: Glittering Wish Scapeshift. By adding 2 more win cons that can still find board wipes when needed I'm hoping it will add the extra consistency I was lacking. https://deckbox.org/sets/1871593 It also gives me out to turn 0 double Leyline of Sanctity that I lost to from Bogles, and alternate win conditions that are hard to kill are easily accessible if I lose the Valakut combo. The only notable exclusion on that front that I can think of is Geist of Saint Traft. I am unsure what I need to do to the mana to fix it up for a Glittering Wish. Testing will follow. Currently I'm planning on playing KCI or Affinity for SCG Philadelphia.
After playing a bunch with Eternal Witness a bunch more, I'm not switching back to Snapcaster Mage. I played a single game where the difference could have mattered (against Infect) and every other time Witness was as good or better. I won an entire game against Bogles by Cryptic locking them, and returned Obstinate Baloths and Misty Rainforests as well as spells. It seems much much better to me.
Recent decks on mtgtop8 are using Black over White as the 4th color of BtL Scapeshift decks.
Black does, indeed, provides us some nice spells, such as Abrupt Decay and Slaughter Games. Also, Jace, the Mind Sculptor is getting replaced on those lists as well. How about the inclusion of Nicol Bolas, the Ravager as the deck's alternate kill condition, replacing JTMS?
Seems a good creature to add, because Bolas provides a nice 4/4 body with a discard. And 7 mana is very easy to get by mid/late game, so transform him won't be much of na issue. As for his planeswalker's package, I say that draw 2 extra cards every turn is too sweet to pass and the "-3" and "-4" abilities have a good impact, depending on the matchup. And Bolas is "fetchable" with BtL, while JTMS is not.
Regards,
bitbroosher.
1 Breeding Pool
1 Cinder Glade
1 Flooded Grove
2 Flooded Strand
2 Forest
2 Hallowed Fountain
3 Island
1 Mountain
1 Plains
2 Sheltered Thicket
4 Steam Vents
1 Stomping Ground
1 Sacred Foundry
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
2 Wooded Foothills
Comments are welcomed !
Aggro: Naya Burn RWG
Combo: Scapeshift RG
Control: Jeskai Control UWR
Legacy
Control: Miracles UW
Aggro: Burn R
2 Hallowed Fountain is too many. The deck is (generally) really light on white and only needs 1 for the most part.
2 Sheltered Thicket is nice, but entering tapped is a real cost for your green sources. You're far too low on turn 1 green sources for your Search for Tomorrow. If you can afford 3 more Stomping Grounds, do it.
Sacred Foundry is always a kinda meh card. You rarely need red and white mana unless you're running multiple wraths and angers. It can definitely be useful so I won't really hate on it.
You need a Temple Garden, or at least a Canopy Vista.
Can we get the full list? It really helps for us making observations.
Hey, glad to see some new people in on here. It appears that all the old regulars died or something.
So Bolas is another fair deck win condition you can play out of the sideboard. While I don't think it's bad, I feel there are better options. Maindeck is almost definitely off the table as it turns on their removal. Generally, you only need alt win cons g2-3 anyway. It's not a bad option, I'm just not sure it's the best choice.
Jace is getting replaced because he's fragile and the deck can't generally protect him well. Regrettably, I've not tested with him much so I don't know much more than that.