Maybe I'm a bit thick bit I'm seeing deck lists that have 1 mountain, if you Valakut requires 5 mountains in play to start doing damage how does that work?
I always found it pretty difficult to play with clutch. We're playing such a tight list already and honestly peer through depths tends to be enough to get us there. On top of that, drawing extras isn't nearly as back breaking. Through depths can cantrip to find us more ramp, counterspells, burn etc.
Am I correct in assuming that while playing this deck if you fetch or play SfT you should avoid going after Mountains so they are there when you do cast Scapeshift?
Yeah, I'd generally avoid getting Mountain shocks unless you really need that Bolt/Izzet Charm/Pyroclasm/etc.
If you're unlucky enough to have 5 or fewer Mountains in your library, though, you probably have at least 8 lands (at least 2 of which are Mountains), so you can sac 6 lands for 2 Valakut + 4 Mountains for 24 damage.
Yeah, I'd generally avoid getting Mountain shocks unless you really need that Bolt/Izzet Charm/Pyroclasm/etc.
If you're unlucky enough to have 5 or fewer Mountains in your library, though, you probably have at least 8 lands (at least 2 of which are Mountains), so you can sac 6 lands for 2 Valakut + 4 Mountains for 24 damage.
Ok. I was trying the deck out and always seemed to have an opening hand containing a few mtns and a Valakut, so the whole time I'm thinking "Crap I hope I don't draw the second Valakut!"
I've started building the deck the day Valakut got off the ban list, but stopped since I couldn't find Peer Through Depths and Serum Vision and Telling Time are just so bad :/
So this is the list I brought to this week's weekly Modern League
I did well with a 3-1 finish with 17 persons, only losing to Splinter Twin and winning against B/W Token, Boros Deck win and a Knight deck, pretty much easily each. (They weren't tier 1 decks sadly).
I love my sideboard, since I add multiple ways to win other than Scapeshift, since we are 2 to play the deck, I'll expect even more hate next week.
The 3 Valakuts will go down to 2, since at the beginning there was supposed to have 3 Martyr decks, down to 1 now and have yet to make the change. I'll add a mountain probably.
I think although serum visions is not nearly as good as ponder or preordain. We still need them to be consistent. I don't know how much of a budget you're on but I would run at least 3 misty rf. Kessig wolf run is cute for a back up but with only 6 creatures, 4 of which we want in the yard. It's not the best option. Also personally I would not run dispel mb. I think the biggest improvement would be to drop the number of valakut in your deck to two first.
I'm also on the fence with the 4x farseek. It's a good card for the deck. But you have to ask: would I rather have 4x farseek or 4x serum visions. I did 4x serum visions 2x farseek in my list. Also having 4 search for tomorrow is awesome. It's a card I want to get multiples of in every game I play.
Also can you tell us what part of twin was most difficult for you? Blood moon? Permission? Speed?
Yeah, I'd generally avoid getting Mountain shocks unless you really need that Bolt/Izzet Charm/Pyroclasm/etc.
If you're unlucky enough to have 5 or fewer Mountains in your library, though, you probably have at least 8 lands (at least 2 of which are Mountains), so you can sac 6 lands for 2 Valakut + 4 Mountains for 24 damage.
Ummm, for Valakut to trigger don't you have to bring into to play at least 6 total mountains?
Ummm, for Valakut to trigger don't you have to bring into to play at least 6 total mountains?
Valakut counts every single Mountain that ETB, starting with the 6th one (so if 6 Mountains ETB at once, all of them count). If you originally have 2 Mountains and then you ship in 2 Valakuts and 4 Mountains with a Scapeshift, the 2 Valakuts trigger for the 4 Mountains that ETB, so that's 24 damage.
Also can you tell us what part of twin was most difficult for you? Blood moon? Permission? Speed?
Blood moon and Speed.
Blood moon mostly because I couldn't find a green source with a green hand...
I do not have a budget for the deck, I'll try adding at least 3 Serum Visions somewhere and the 4th Search for Tomorrow, but I love the 4 Farseeks, I generally do not draw all 4 of them, and I like having my 3 Breeding Pools available on the field.
Valakut counts every single Mountain that ETB, starting with the 6th one (so if 6 Mountains ETB at once, all of them count). If you originally have 2 Mountains and then you ship in 2 Valakuts and 4 Mountains with a Scapeshift, the 2 Valakuts trigger for the 4 Mountains that ETB, so that's 24 damage.
So trying to get into Modern, and wanting to try this out as I left standard after my Valakut-Ramp deck rotated.
Any way to build this without the cryptic command? Trying to build this on a budget, the lands shouldn't be too big of a problem though.
Oh, I'm only going to be playing at the semi-competitive fnm level, biggest worry is grix-twin
To be brutally honest, I don't even think the deck is worth playing unless you are running cryptics. It is singlehandedly the best card in the deck. It does so many things: counterspell + cantrip, stalls creatures until you can hit 7 land, bounces liliana etc. Cryptic w/ Snaps to recast pretty much make me feel as if I will always win if I can just get to 4 land
Alternatively, I think you would be better off running the faster R/G version with primeval titan if cryptic isn't an option. I must admit I haven't tried playing without it, but I'd like to think that I have enough experience with Scapeshift to be able to say its absence would be a critical problem.
With my speed Scapeshift list (actually goes off Turn 4 quite consistently), I've only felt the loss of Cryptic Command in really grindy match-ups (mainly blue decks), and the blue match-ups tend to be unfavourable anyway unless they're on Eggs (Twin is favourable pre-board but turns ugly as soon as they board in Blood Moon).
I haven't felt the loss against aggro because my strategy against aggro is to combo off before they kill me, and it's worked (it can actually race Burn pre-board, as opposed to the slower traditional Cryptic lists that have to board in Obstinate Baloth from my testing in order to have a chance).
IMO I really feel that this deck has the WORST match up against anything blue. Cryptic command is just bad against blue imho. Most of the time I just can't get scapeshift through their permission and cryptic command doesn't really help that much. What it does help against are mid range decks.
I tested against blue tron and won maybe 2/15 games because their permission just was a brick wall. Remand my search for tomorrows. Condescend/spellburst/remand my scapeshift and it's gg when they pull out their sundering titan. On top of that they have beautiful tech against us in the form of spellskite. But I think that this is an exception since U tron runs the most permission of any deck in modern.
I've always been happy against aggro or blueless midrange. WUR and U tron are terrible matchups.
Can you post a list for us lectrys?
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My love of lands knows no bounds.
Currently playing: GCasual 8-post R Casual Land Destruction UBRWG Legacy Dredge WGB Modern Melira Pod RUG EDH
The latest incarnation has slowed down a bit after I pulled the lone Wood Elves, but Uncovered Clues's draw has been very powerful (if slow). With the current list, I still seem to get 2 instants/sorceries considerably more than half the time.
I also pulled the lone Dispel recently for Counterflux because Dispel was dead against black-based midrange, Pod, RG Tron, Affinity, and more. Since I tend to combo off on 7 lands, I don't like protection that I can't cast on 3 lands for this build (e.g. Cryptic Command).
Bound // Determined has been just live enough against the above decks to stay in, as it still cantrips at instant speed for 2 mana (and it hoses counterspells, too).
The Boseiju is also currently staying in because it makes my life against blue decks considerably better (except when it's Tectonic Edge fodder), but it makes my life total against aggro decks go way down.
Explore has tested quite well, even as a 2-of. I ramp often enough with it, and late-game, it helps me draw into the awesome Scapeshift. I've been cursed enough times with Search for Tomorrow as my last nonland card in hand that I don't want to try Farseek instead.
I still don't want to pull Augur of Bolas because he's got the best pre-board body in the deck (a great attacker with a large butt that doesn't die to flashed-in Tiagos) and he digs for the Scapeshift I do not have well enough.
Coiling Oracle has tested well enough. It probably ramps me around 25-30% of the time, but the cantrip has always been valuable. It's probably part of the secret of the speed of my version, and I'm not sure why we aren't all taking advantage of this Old Extended tech.
That's an interesting list. I think I might try the Oracles (+Serum Visions) myself. I also really like Bound // Determined but not in main. It could be great SB option against all decks that play counterspells. And since these games are often long, it might be worth it to have one black mana for Bound as well, because you could sac any of your small creatures to return Scapeshift to your hand (idk, maybe it's not worth it).
I don't really like Uncovered Clues, because Peer Through Depths seems much better, mainly because it's an instant, costs one less and digs one deeper and I think you are very often looking for one card in this deck (mainly Scapeshift) + as you said you don't always get 2 cards anyway.
I also don't understand why you play only 23 lands. That seems really low when you want to be hitting additional lands wit Oracle and Explore.
My list is inspired by Old Extended lists, which ran 23-24 lands. Especially with the rate this version rips through the deck, 23 lands have been just fine for me.
I got tired enough of running into Liliana of the Veil backed by disruption to try out 2 Uncovered Clues. Trying to play around Surgical Extraction by discarding lands instead of Scapeshift when I have 2 cards in hand and fewer than 7 lands on the battlefield is not fun (although Slaughter Games is probably more common in Liliana decks).
Im sorry I dont wanna be rude but can someone explain to me please how can a 23 land list with 8 real ramp's and 6 "maybe ramp" with some awkward percentage of flipping land can be faster than one regular list with 24/25 lands and 11/12 real ramps?
If you wanna have the speed percentage edge play one single Prismatic Omen so you can go combo with 6 lands. Also I dont have any idea of your metagame but first uncovered clues and bound determined are just awful, counterflux mb is also awful. Not even a single sweeper cant be right. Again, I dont know your metagame but your list looks really funny but not competitive enought I think.
Edit: I looked again to the list and see that not only you play only 23 lands but you also have one boseiju maindecked in that 23 lands. Im sorry but that's just too much for my magic stomach.
Let's compare a typical Cryptic Scapeshift list with mine:
Primer Alon Chitiz List (looks pretty typical for MTGO, actually, even though it's about 2 Izzet Charms short of something)
24 lands
10 ramp
17 cantrips (Cryptic Command and Remand count, but I don't count Tiago as anything because he's only inconsistently ramp or a cantrip)
My List
23 lands
10 ramp (this is even a conservative figure with 4 Coiling Oracle counting as 1 ramp and 2 Explore counting as 1 ramp--Explore has generally been ramp to me more than half the time, but the Oracle figure feels about right)
19.5 cantrips (Oracle, Explore, and Augur of Bolas count, 2 Uncovered Clues only count as 2 cantrips, Izzet Charm doesn't count since I rarely use it to dig, Bound // Determined counts as 0.5 cantrips because I'll assume I'm against blue half the time)
Especially since Cryptic is a 4-cmc cantrip, those 19.5 cantrips make my version significantly faster than the 17-cantrip typical version.
I've modeled my removal suite on Exarch Twin's, and since my version is about as fast as Twin (maybe even faster, as I only need to assemble a 2-piece combo against decks with counterspells, while Twin needs to assemble a 3-piece combo against removal), I haven't felt the loss of pre-board sweepers in both this and Twin.
Oh boy...brain fart...
I always found it pretty difficult to play with clutch. We're playing such a tight list already and honestly peer through depths tends to be enough to get us there. On top of that, drawing extras isn't nearly as back breaking. Through depths can cantrip to find us more ramp, counterspells, burn etc.
Currently playing:
GCasual 8-post
R Casual Land Destruction
UBRWG Legacy Dredge
WGB Modern Melira Pod
RUG EDH
If you're unlucky enough to have 5 or fewer Mountains in your library, though, you probably have at least 8 lands (at least 2 of which are Mountains), so you can sac 6 lands for 2 Valakut + 4 Mountains for 24 damage.
Ok. I was trying the deck out and always seemed to have an opening hand containing a few mtns and a Valakut, so the whole time I'm thinking "Crap I hope I don't draw the second Valakut!"
So this is the list I brought to this week's weekly Modern League
3x Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
1x Kessig Wolf Run
2x Forest
3x Island
1x Mountain
1x Misty Rainforest
1x Scalding Tarn
4x Steam Vents
4x Stomping Ground
2x Flooded Grove
3x Breeding Pool
4x Sakura-Tribe Elder
2x Snapcaster Mage
Instants
4x Peer Through Depths
3x Cryptic Command
4x Remand
2x Izzet Charm
1x Dispel
2x Lightning Bolt
Sorceries
3x Search for Tomorrow
2x Firespout
4x Farseek
4x Scapeshift
2x Repeal
2x Rude Awakening
2x Obstinate Baloth
3x Naturalize
3x Wurmcoil Engine
1x Counterflux
1x Dispel
2x Thrun, the Last Troll
I did well with a 3-1 finish with 17 persons, only losing to Splinter Twin and winning against B/W Token, Boros Deck win and a Knight deck, pretty much easily each. (They weren't tier 1 decks sadly).
I love my sideboard, since I add multiple ways to win other than Scapeshift, since we are 2 to play the deck, I'll expect even more hate next week.
The 3 Valakuts will go down to 2, since at the beginning there was supposed to have 3 Martyr decks, down to 1 now and have yet to make the change. I'll add a mountain probably.
Any thoughts ?
I'm also on the fence with the 4x farseek. It's a good card for the deck. But you have to ask: would I rather have 4x farseek or 4x serum visions. I did 4x serum visions 2x farseek in my list. Also having 4 search for tomorrow is awesome. It's a card I want to get multiples of in every game I play.
Also can you tell us what part of twin was most difficult for you? Blood moon? Permission? Speed?
Currently playing:
GCasual 8-post
R Casual Land Destruction
UBRWG Legacy Dredge
WGB Modern Melira Pod
RUG EDH
Ummm, for Valakut to trigger don't you have to bring into to play at least 6 total mountains?
Valakut counts every single Mountain that ETB, starting with the 6th one (so if 6 Mountains ETB at once, all of them count). If you originally have 2 Mountains and then you ship in 2 Valakuts and 4 Mountains with a Scapeshift, the 2 Valakuts trigger for the 4 Mountains that ETB, so that's 24 damage.
Blood moon and Speed.
Blood moon mostly because I couldn't find a green source with a green hand...
I do not have a budget for the deck, I'll try adding at least 3 Serum Visions somewhere and the 4th Search for Tomorrow, but I love the 4 Farseeks, I generally do not draw all 4 of them, and I like having my 3 Breeding Pools available on the field.
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Ah ha! Got it, thanks.
Any way to build this without the cryptic command? Trying to build this on a budget, the lands shouldn't be too big of a problem though.
Oh, I'm only going to be playing at the semi-competitive fnm level, biggest worry is grix-twin
URGRiku, Sorcerer SupremeGRU
Who needs permanents anyways?
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Alternatively, I think you would be better off running the faster R/G version with primeval titan if cryptic isn't an option. I must admit I haven't tried playing without it, but I'd like to think that I have enough experience with Scapeshift to be able to say its absence would be a critical problem.
I haven't felt the loss against aggro because my strategy against aggro is to combo off before they kill me, and it's worked (it can actually race Burn pre-board, as opposed to the slower traditional Cryptic lists that have to board in Obstinate Baloth from my testing in order to have a chance).
I tested against blue tron and won maybe 2/15 games because their permission just was a brick wall. Remand my search for tomorrows. Condescend/spellburst/remand my scapeshift and it's gg when they pull out their sundering titan. On top of that they have beautiful tech against us in the form of spellskite. But I think that this is an exception since U tron runs the most permission of any deck in modern.
I've always been happy against aggro or blueless midrange. WUR and U tron are terrible matchups.
Can you post a list for us lectrys?
Currently playing:
GCasual 8-post
R Casual Land Destruction
UBRWG Legacy Dredge
WGB Modern Melira Pod
RUG EDH
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Scalding Tarn
4 Steam Vents
4 Stomping Ground
1 Breeding Pool
2 Forest
2 Island
2 Mountain
Creatures
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 Coiling Oracle
1 Augur of Bolas
4 Scapeshift
4 Serum Visions
2 Peer Through Depths
2 Uncovered Clues
4 Remand
2 Izzet Charm
1 Counterflux
1 Bound // Determined
4 Search for Tomorrow
2 Explore
2 Lightning Bolt
1 Obstinate Baloth
1 Primal Command
1 Meloku the Clouded Mirror
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Firespout
2 Pyroclasm
1 Dispel
1 Muddle the Mixture
1 Gigadrowse
1 Wipe Away
1 Echoing Truth
1 Cyclonic Rift
1 Krosan Grip
The latest incarnation has slowed down a bit after I pulled the lone Wood Elves, but Uncovered Clues's draw has been very powerful (if slow). With the current list, I still seem to get 2 instants/sorceries considerably more than half the time.
I also pulled the lone Dispel recently for Counterflux because Dispel was dead against black-based midrange, Pod, RG Tron, Affinity, and more. Since I tend to combo off on 7 lands, I don't like protection that I can't cast on 3 lands for this build (e.g. Cryptic Command).
Bound // Determined has been just live enough against the above decks to stay in, as it still cantrips at instant speed for 2 mana (and it hoses counterspells, too).
The Boseiju is also currently staying in because it makes my life against blue decks considerably better (except when it's Tectonic Edge fodder), but it makes my life total against aggro decks go way down.
Explore has tested quite well, even as a 2-of. I ramp often enough with it, and late-game, it helps me draw into the awesome Scapeshift. I've been cursed enough times with Search for Tomorrow as my last nonland card in hand that I don't want to try Farseek instead.
I still don't want to pull Augur of Bolas because he's got the best pre-board body in the deck (a great attacker with a large butt that doesn't die to flashed-in Tiagos) and he digs for the Scapeshift I do not have well enough.
Coiling Oracle has tested well enough. It probably ramps me around 25-30% of the time, but the cantrip has always been valuable. It's probably part of the secret of the speed of my version, and I'm not sure why we aren't all taking advantage of this Old Extended tech.
The cheaper Dispel is probably the better anti-blue sideboard option (even Autumn's Veil isn't bad), as it also counters Sphinx's Revelation. I just picked Bound // Determined for the maindeck because it isn't dead Izzet Charm fodder against nonblue decks.
My list is inspired by Old Extended lists, which ran 23-24 lands. Especially with the rate this version rips through the deck, 23 lands have been just fine for me.
I got tired enough of running into Liliana of the Veil backed by disruption to try out 2 Uncovered Clues. Trying to play around Surgical Extraction by discarding lands instead of Scapeshift when I have 2 cards in hand and fewer than 7 lands on the battlefield is not fun (although Slaughter Games is probably more common in Liliana decks).
Let's compare a typical Cryptic Scapeshift list with mine:
Primer Alon Chitiz List (looks pretty typical for MTGO, actually, even though it's about 2 Izzet Charms short of something)
Especially since Cryptic is a 4-cmc cantrip, those 19.5 cantrips make my version significantly faster than the 17-cantrip typical version.
I've modeled my removal suite on Exarch Twin's, and since my version is about as fast as Twin (maybe even faster, as I only need to assemble a 2-piece combo against decks with counterspells, while Twin needs to assemble a 3-piece combo against removal), I haven't felt the loss of pre-board sweepers in both this and Twin.