On the topic of land bases, my meta is heavy on blood moon and land destruction at the moment, what do you guys think would be the best middle ground on basics to run in this environment?
That seems fine, so be honest I don't think the 3rd Island is needed even in a heavy Moon situation (Since you have cantrips/pentads to help fix mana as well). We're pretty resilient against Blood Moon on account of the artifact mana.
Utility is Dreadship Reef atm. I'm pretty happy with this list and the additional Scrylands didn't really hurt my turn 4 kill percentage ...
I'm sure it wouldn't, as long as you're staying around 40% untapped 4th lands you're going to hit the same kill percentages. I really don't like Reef right now because it just does nothing useful against any top deck that isn't Jeskai (Which we're already good against), not making colored mana the turn it comes down sucks. Urborg even is kinda meh and I'm thinking the 3rd basic might just be better (or maybe I'll try Tolaria MD).
try holding off on suspending Lotus Bloom turn 1 if you don't have the turn 4 kill in your opener since they might have Ancient Grudge and you missing out on the white mana will gain you a loss. Prioritize casting your cantrips befor Blood Moon lands. Lotus Bloom is your best friend in comboing off against these decks. I would stay away from too much basics in the deck. Either 2 Plains or 1 Island / 1 Plains should suffice. Also something to note - if you have a Lotus Bloom and Pentad Prism and 4 mana. Even under a Blood Moon, you can still combo off. Just hold off on your Pentad Prism and play it on 1 Sunburst using 2 red mana for White. Then crack the Lotus Bloom for Ad Nauseam / Spoils to Ad Nauseam. Alternatively if you have the Echoing Truth in hand, play your Pentad Prism on Sunburst 1 with 2 red mana and pass. At end of their turn bounce the Blood Moon. That should allow you to comobo off even during your upkeep. Try to keep some number of Pacts for this matchup.
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plays Ad Nauseam and Amulet Bloom in Modern
"He traded sand for skins, skins for gold, gold for life. In the end, he traded life for sand."
—Afari, Tales
What are people doing against these moronic 8-rack/pox-style decks? Leylines are pretty useless vs Liliana and The Rack (namely, they don't work). Bring in Thoughtseize and strategically counter their discard spells?
Leylines, Thoughtseize, I'd probably bring Clique. Celestial Purge is great but not in my board right now since Lili decks are at an all time low.
Interesting to see what removal does or doesn't go in vs certain matchups.
Copying it here for ease of reading:
Humans (Worst MU)
In - 3 Bontu’s Last Reckoning, 2 fatal push, slaughter pact
Out - 3 pact of Negation, 3 pentad prism Jeskai control variant (very good MU)
In - 1 Pact of Negation, 2 Thoughtseize, 1 Echoing Truth
Out - 1 Phyrexian Unlife, 2 Pentad Prism, 1 Sleight of hands Affinity (60/40)
In - Hurkyl’s Recall, 2 Fatal Push, Slaughter Pact
Out - 3 Pact of Negation, Spoils of the Vault Jund (fine MU)
In- 4 Leyline of Sanctity
Out-3 Pact of Negation, 1 Pentad Prism Black-Red hollow one (45/55)
In - 2 Thoughseize ( Leyline if they have discard other than the 2 brutalities)
Out - 2 Pact of Negation Burn (very good MU)
In - 4 Leyline of Sanctity
Out -2 Pact of Negation, 1 sleight of hand, 1 spoils of the vault Tron (Good MU)
In - 2 Thoughtseize
Out - 2 Phyrexian Unlife Mardu Pyromancer
In - 4 Leyline of Sanctity,
Out - 2 Pact of Negations, 2 sleight of hand Grixis Death’s Shadow
In - 4 Leyline of Sanctity, 1 Pact of Negation
Out - 3 pentad prism, 2 sleight of hand TitanShift/Scapeshift
In - 2 Thoughtseize
Out - 1 Spoils of the Vault, 1 Phyrexian Unlife G/W Hexproof
In - 1 Echoing Truth, 2 Fatal Push
Out - 2 Pentad Prism, 1 Pact of Negation U/R Gifts Storm
In - 1 Pact of Negation, 2 Fatal Push, 2 Thoughtseize
Out - 3 Phyrexian Unlife, 2 Sleight of Hand Counters Company
In - 2 Fatal Push, 1 Slaughter Pact, 3 Bontu’s Last Reckoning
Out - 2 Pact of Negation, 2 Phyrexian Unlife, 2 Sleight of Hand Ironworks Combo
In - 1 Pact of Negation, 2 Thoughtseize, 1 Hurkyl’s Recall
Out - 3 Phyrexian Unlife, 1 Sleight of Hand Elves
In - 3 Bontu’s Last Reckoning, 1 Slaughter Pact, (2 Fatal Push if they have gaddock teeg)
Out - 3 Pact of Negation, 1 Sleight of Hand U/W Control
In - 1 Pact of Negation, 2 Thoughtseize, 1 Echoing Truth
Out - 1 Phyrexian Unlife, 2 Pentad Prism, 1 Echoing Truth G/R Land Destruction
In - 2 Thoughtseize, 1 Echoing Truth
Out - 2 Sleight of Hand, 1 Pact of Negation Ad Nauseum
In - 1 Pact of Negation, 2 Thoughtseize
Out - 1 Lightning Storm, 2 Phyrexian Unlife Dredge
In - 2 Thoughtseize
Out - 2 Pact of Negation
About the manabase, I'm on the deck since 2015 and I'm running fetches and shocks. It's the optimal combination when put into the hand of a skilled Ad Nauseam player. My deck right now :
The manabase has been crafted for a long period of time. Aside the 6 temples that come into play tapped, only Tolaria West (and Boseiju out of the SB) come into play untapped which helps not being mana screwed. Also, velocity is the most important asset of this manabase : it is so fast with fetchlands, shocklands and legendary lands. Knowing that the meta is fast and aggro, I feel really good early game getting the mana I need and also late game especially because fastlands might be problematic in the long run when needing mana. Some of these lands are awesome:
1) Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth has amazing synergies with the 4 fetchlands (which can be tapped for black) as well as the 2 Gemstone Mine, which are now eternal (can be tapped for black without using a counter).
2) Tolaria West can be transmutted for any pact or Boseiju, even for a Lotus Bloom.
3) Boseiju, Who Shelters All is the ultimate control land. It gets us there.
Maindeck:
Several things are really relevant here:
1) 1 Mystical Teachings is really safe. It's surprising that in a really aggro meta how this card be relevant : CMC is slow, but it helps you having hands without the combo pieces but lots of mana rocks or useful cards coming from the sideboard. I've been keeping different starting hands with both Mystical Teachings in the deck : it needs more mana and I've been mulliganing to keep hands that are fast to increase the velocity of this tutor.
2) 2 Peer Throug Depth help really against Chalice of the Void to ensure that we still have cantrips. Also, it gets our combo pieces at instant speed.
3) Slaughter Pact becomes more and more useful with the heavy creatures meta environment.
Sideboard:
The idea of this sideboard is to find the cards. You virtualy have 3 copies of each instant cards because Mystical Teachings can find them, which is an amazing thing. Redundancy is way better than it seems and the sideboard covers a large spectrum of matchups. Mortify is surprisingly good.
In all, the manabase which is streamlined everywhere is designed around fastlands and painland, but it's very weak to Blood Moon and any sort of land destruction. Also, life is a ressource that must be used correctly in this game, so having the fetches provides a great equilibrium with the temples. Jonathan Benson, Derk Chad and Nicholas Byrd have been great in many high end tournaments with this kind of configuration and I have myself won a GPT and got to the finals of another GPT.
And if your not convince, just play what feels right for you.
About the manabase, I'm on the deck since 2015 and I'm running fetches and shocks. It's the optimal combination when put into the hand of a skilled Ad Nauseam player.
In all, the manabase which is streamlined everywhere is designed around fastlands and painland, but it's very weak to Blood Moon and any sort of land destruction. Also, life is a resource that must be used correctly in this game, so having the fetches provides a great equilibrium with the temples.
I'd love to see you pull up some actual data to back that claim up. The best manabase for the deck has been quite cemented in the current meta. Benson hasn't topped anything with the deck since 2016 as far as I can tell, Chad only topped once in 2015 (And with a fetchless list no less), Byrd hasn't topped in a year but I'll give him credit for trying Whir of Invention at least.
Our deck isn't really weak to moon anyway, we run 8 artifacts that can help fix it and the MD Echoing Truth that's becoming standard helps as well. Life is a scarce resource in a Humans/Hollow One meta and the Fetch-Shock manabase doesn't seem to be correct by the results we've seen.
Tolaria still feels too slow right now to MD it. I agree with you on Teachings/Peer/Slaughter Pact though, and the benefits of Teachings when building a SB is pretty sweet. That being said, Haze hasn't been great since Infect died and Bontu's got printed and I don't know why you're running the Dispel (Run the 4th Pact, or if it's specifically for Control run a second Boseiju).
Jarred Boettcher and Bryan Gottlieb being the only ones making it to the Pro Tour in 2014 were on the exact same list with fetches and shocks. That the most high-end finish the deck ever had with 7-2 and 8-1-1 records. The only SCG ever won by the deck was last year, still on no fastland by Nicholas Byrd. However, Andreas Ganz won the only GP with a very streamlined list with fastlands and temples. To me, the 8 fastlands version of the deck and 3 Spoils is just the ''easy'' version of it : doesn't need as much decisions in regards of lands and doesn't leave space for flexibility. My taste is with fetches and I just wouldn't ever go back to anything else.
The fact is that at the moment and since 2 years, the deck as been pushed back into tier 2-3 territory. Out of the 8 most played decks in Modern, we have :
- Tron, which should be a piece of cake.
- Humans, which is impossible.
- Jeskai Control should be easy.
- Pyromancer decks seem grindy and maybe 40/60 for them.
- Hollow One decks are rough for us.
- Burn should be easy.
- KCI is faster than us.
- Affinity should be 50/50 pre-board and 60/40 post-board with Stony Silence and Recall.
And we don't perform well. Storm was the combo deck for 2017, KCI is the combo deck for 2018 and Titanshift is the most consistent combo deck all around for a couple of years. We still are doing okay, but maybe thinking about some sideboarding options for those poor matchups should be our priority over anything else at the moment (even thinking about having more maindeck cards to ease up the though matchups).
Oh and I'm running Dispel because of control decks (Boseiju is always dead with FoR).
Jarred Boettcher and Bryan Gottlieb being the only ones making it to the Pro Tour in 2014 were on the exact same list with fetches and shocks. That the most high-end finish the deck ever had with 7-2 and 8-1-1 records. The only SCG ever won by the deck was last year, still on no fastland by Nicholas Byrd. However, Andreas Ganz won the only GP with a very streamlined list with fastlands and temples. To me, the 8 fastlands version of the deck and 3 Spoils is just the ''easy'' version of it : doesn't need as much decisions in regards of lands and doesn't leave space for flexibility. My taste is with fetches and I just wouldn't ever go back to anything else.
The fact is that at the moment and since 2 years, the deck as been pushed back into tier 2-3 territory. Out of the 8 most played decks in Modern, we have :
- Tron, which should be a piece of cake.
- Humans, which is impossible.
- Jeskai Control should be easy.
- Pyromancer decks seem grindy and maybe 40/60 for them.
- Hollow One decks are rough for us.
- Burn should be easy.
- KCI is faster than us.
- Affinity should be 50/50 pre-board and 60/40 post-board with Stony Silence and Recall.
And we don't perform well. Storm was the combo deck for 2017, KCI is the combo deck for 2018 and Titanshift is the most consistent combo deck all around for a couple of years. We still are doing okay, but maybe thinking about some sideboarding options for those poor matchups should be our priority over anything else at the moment (even thinking about having more maindeck cards to ease up the though matchups).
Oh and I'm running Dispel because of control decks (Boseiju is always dead with FoR).
Ah yes, Boettcher.... But of course! We should just play based on lists from 4 years ago, not like you'd get laughed at for playing Ajani in Jeskai or MD Ascension in Storm, maybe I'll just play Twin or Pod! Oh wait... (While we're talking about PT, guess what land build the last reported PT deck was running)
Those results make no sense to reference, they're absurdly far out of date for the current meta. Sure Byrd may have been the only win, but if we just check the five open and classic results from this year they're all fetchless. It's also ridiculous to only look at wins: The difference between a top result and a win is usually tiny compared to the relative size of the event. You should likely be looking at "Tops". Further, the fact that Storm lists (Driven by the Scherer/Muller thinktank) have shifted to fetchless should be telling.
It's not the "easy" version, it's not inflexible, you're just ignorant to the current state of the meta and the deck.
The relative position in the meta hasn't really changed. It's not like we were ever "Tier 1" when those PT results were up, Boettcher's literally doesn't count and it's not unheard of for players to spike events with T2/3 decks (See GP Barcelona 2018 and Hardened Scales Affinity). We've always been a Tier 2 deck at best.
We're relatively easier to disrupt compared to Storm and KCI since these critical mass combo decks get to be better against discard. They've also been running about half a turn faster than us it seems, and with better resilience to hate (See Explosives in KCI and Gifts for Bounce in Storm). We've got a definite edge against control and Burn relative to those two at the cost of being slower. We also have a relatively lower play rate and no popular pro's playing the deck. The other bit of us not preforming well is Humans such a garbage matchup.
Further, saying that we should prioritize SBing continues to emphasize your lack of attention to how the deck is currently built. There's a reason most SB's are on 2 removal and 3 boardwipe (Humans), there's a reason we run 4 Leyline (Mardu), the Hurkyl's and Thoughtseizes too (KCI). The SB for the deck makes sense in it's stock form, you're just out of date (like I said earlier Haze really isn't great anymore). We have seen some MD adjustment in response to the meta already in the form of Echoing Truth coming into the main (and to a lesser extent, Slaughter Pact) and the 4th Unlife becoming standard MD. The MD has gotten very tight and streamlined lately and I feel as though the next adjustment possible in terms of increasing speed/efficiency is moving to 19/18 lands.
Fair enough on the Dispel, I prefer 2 Boseiju since the first usually is dead due to FoR but the second is very likely to stick; i.e. the first gains considerable value from the second. (That and them tapping mana for FoR is good for us anyway) Infraction issued for flaming. --CavalryWolfPack
There's no need to be rude about being ''ignorant to the current state of the meta and the deck''. It's comment like these that don't encourage people to just share ideas, even if you would disagree.
There's no need to be rude about being ''ignorant to the current state of the meta and the deck''. It's comment like these that don't encourage people to just share ideas, even if you would disagree.
There is likewise no need to demean the better build by calling it "easy", yet here we are. Sharing ideas is excellent but it should be in a manner that aims to actively improve the deck, not just making irrelevant points about outdated information. This is not a disagreement about anything subjective, this is - as I said - you being ignorant to the state of the deck. This likewise is a huge part of why I take breaks from this forum: There is a huge amount of wasted discussion on ideas that have minimal potential to improve the deck (e.g. Fetches, that Shared Fate thing, Leyline-less). I would much prefer we had some degree of direction as a community such that we might be able to continue to advance the deck (the shared direction being a necessity to compensate for the lack of players if we're to keep up with the rapid deck development of Tron/Humans/Jeskai).
Fetchless is provably the better manabase for the current meta. I'm being honest, not rude, you should try catching up on the years of data you're ignoring if you want to meaningfully contribute to the development of the deck.
There's no need to be rude about being ''ignorant to the current state of the meta and the deck''. It's comment like these that don't encourage people to just share ideas, even if you would disagree.
There is likewise no need to demean the better build by calling it "easy", yet here we are. Sharing ideas is excellent but it should be in a manner that aims to actively improve the deck, not just making irrelevant points about outdated information. This is not a disagreement about anything subjective, this is - as I said - you being ignorant to the state of the deck. This likewise is a huge part of why I take breaks from this forum: There is a huge amount of wasted discussion on ideas that have minimal potential to improve the deck (e.g. Fetches, that Shared Fate thing, Leyline-less). I would much prefer we had some degree of direction as a community such that we might be able to continue to advance the deck (the shared direction being a necessity to compensate for the lack of players if we're to keep up with the rapid deck development of Tron/Humans/Jeskai).
Fetchless is provably the better manabase for the current meta. I'm being honest, not rude, you should try catching up on the years of data you're ignoring if you want to meaningfully contribute to the development of the deck.
I know the data and I'm not ignoring it. I see what wins, I know what gets played. I know fetches and shocks is not the popular choice, but that doesn't make it not viable nor bad. You implying I don't know what is happening with the deck is simply pedantic : I've contributed to this thread very intensively over the last three years. Something not being played doesn't make it unplayable.
I know that fastlands and temples have proven to be very efficient and I loved that version for a year. But, I prefer to play something different and I don't dismiss the quality of the lists we see right now. It's just not my taste and I would suggest in general for any player beginning with the deck to get the feel of it to play with 8 fastlands and 6 temples.
If by any chance you would be kind enough to share your knowledge about how to bring the deck to the next level, please enlighten us with your wisdom because our community needs a meaningful contribution to compensate for years of wasted discussion
"It's the optimal combination when put into the hand of a skilled Ad Nauseam player."
"The manabase has been crafted for a long period of time."
"Jarred Boettcher" "Pro Tour in 2014"
"The 8 fastlands version of the deck and 3 Spoils is just the ''easy'' version of it : doesn't need as much decisions in regards of lands and doesn't leave space for flexibility."
"Something not being played doesn't make it unplayable."
"I don't dismiss the quality of the lists we see right now."
If by any chance you would be kind enough to share your knowledge about how to bring the deck to the next level, please enlighten us with your wisdom because our community needs a meaningful contribution to compensate for years of wasted discussion
Opinions are fine. Stating your opinion as true without strong supporting data (and even worse, in opposition to the overwhelming majority of the data) is what I think is garbage here. Fetches are playable, sure, but they are not the best way to build the deck and any suggestion that they are is unsupported by recent/large-scale data.
Anywho, here's the list of what I'm upset with you over. Sorry for calling you ignorant.
Citing random people that topped with a deck doesn't make the data better just because they have names.
Citing a known cheater and a Pro Tour from 4 years ago as though it's meaningful.
Demeaning the best build of a deck to try and hype up your unsupported build.
Baseless claims that it's the best version when all recent data says otherwise.
"Don't dismiss" Except for the fact that you just did.
I never said the entire time has been wasted, nor that I was the only one who had answers. Putting words into peoples mouths is poor form. You can also cut the "I've been here for 3 years", so have I, doesn't mean anything.
Contributed intensively: Credit for bringing up Timely, Dromoka, and Tarpit a while ago (even if they aren't good enough to make the cut), but a lot of your posts are just "Here's my deck, you should all play it" without much in the way of in-depth analysis or supporting data. By all means play what you like, but don't lie and say that it's the best.
I've already mentioned that I think 18/19 land considerations are a potential area of improvement (I'm leaning towards shaving two Temples for additional cantrips or the 4th Spoils), Gift SB seems weak but could be worth looking into (Someone mentioned it last page-ish), an aggregated SB guide from Wohlmacher's Primer and DaSneakyPete's list could be very useful.
Now to serious issues, had the idea to test imps mischief again (so much space in the sb w/out the leylines #feelsgoodman), and i must say redirecting abrupt decays, that were targetting P.Unlife, to goyfs and confidants, is priceless. <3
On a separate note, I've finally tried the fetch build like Tom's and play-tested a ton with Humans. Sometimes I'm missing that 4th land to even cast Mystical Teachings to get a Slaughter Pact at least. I feel less in control of my top decks because of the "shuffle" and seems more prone to discard not knowing what the next card is going to be. I don't want to give up on that list, but the life loss definitely makes your opponent kill you quicker by a turn compared to a standard fetchless build and I end up even praying more to top deck a land with the fetch build since I would proactively fetch an Island T1 (just in case there's a Blood Moon) and this is where the fetch build really shines in my opinion but the meta is too fast right now for us. Plus when you're at 1, and you need to top deck that 6th mana to combo and it's a shockland, you lose since it's pay 2 life which if you're already at 1 - this is usually a drawback in my playtesting. I liked the Peer at times but it most often whiffs and a Spoils would have sealed the win right there.
Anyway, I have thought of Axis of Mortality in the sideboard as an alternate for grindy matchups. If we are at negative life and if they can't deal 10 infect damage, then we win on our next upkeep assuming they can't remove the Axis and Unlife. Then if our life is still low, we can always switch to go back to 20 again. I used to have this combo way back in Standard which was Soul Conduit plus Unlife but Soul Conduit is too mana intensive to pull off in 1 turn.
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plays Ad Nauseam and Amulet Bloom in Modern
"He traded sand for skins, skins for gold, gold for life. In the end, he traded life for sand."
—Afari, Tales
Ad Nauseam does not perform very well in the current metagame, unfortunately: the relative dominance of Humans and other decks able to put heavy pressure on the ground while relying on a lot of discard pre- or post-side (Death Shadow, Jund, Mardu), coupled to the rise/return of faster and/or more consistent combo decks (KCI, Storm, Infect) as well as the residual persistance of 75s against which we have a difficult match-up (Hatebear, Death & Taxes...) make the field a nightmare.
There are signs of "hope", though: Tron, Affinity, and RDW remain staples in the current field and it seems that Jeskai/UW control is gaining substantial traction. But all in all, good ol' AdNy (as I like to call it) is not the deck that I would recommend for competitive purposes these days.
No major changes, but the addition of Bontu in the board as you mentioned (takes care of all aggro battlefields "early", no matter the size of the monsters on the ground – and they tend to be big). It also appears that some pilots now play 1 Echoing Truth MD, which I personally highly recommend: it gives you a way out against otherwise unmanageable threats (*wink at Gideon and MD Leylines*) and rarely is a dead draw.
Hope this helps.
I believe this is a great (and sad) truth of the deck at the moment. I've only started getting into the deck and have seen it from the same lenses. I enjoy the deck to a great degree, but sadly it's just not well positioned. Also, I don't see what it's going to take to bring it back up?
Does anyone have experience with the whole "fifth simian spirit guide" in desperate ritual? I say on stream a player said there was math out there that showed the percentage increase of not spoiling away win cons.
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"He traded sand for skins, skins for gold, gold for life. In the end, he traded life for sand."
—Afari, Tales
Interesting to see what removal does or doesn't go in vs certain matchups.
4 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Laboratory Maniac
Lands (20)
2 City of Brass
2 Flooded Strand
2 Island
2 Polluted Delta
4 Temple of Deceit
2 Temple of Enlightenment
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Plains
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Tolaria West
1 Swamp
1 Watery Grave
4 Ad Nauseam
4 Angel's Grace
4 Lotus Bloom
4 Pentad Prism
4 Serum Visions
4 Sleight of Hand
3 Pact of Negation
3 Phyrexian Unlife
2 Peer Through Depths
1 Mystical Teachings
1 Lightning Storm
1 Slaughter Pact
4 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Ethereal Haze
2 Path to Exile
1 Boseiju, who Shelters All
1 Thoughtseize
1 Echoing Truth
1 Dispel
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Timely Reinforcements
1 Wear // Tear
The manabase has been crafted for a long period of time. Aside the 6 temples that come into play tapped, only Tolaria West (and Boseiju out of the SB) come into play untapped which helps not being mana screwed. Also, velocity is the most important asset of this manabase : it is so fast with fetchlands, shocklands and legendary lands. Knowing that the meta is fast and aggro, I feel really good early game getting the mana I need and also late game especially because fastlands might be problematic in the long run when needing mana. Some of these lands are awesome:
1) Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth has amazing synergies with the 4 fetchlands (which can be tapped for black) as well as the 2 Gemstone Mine, which are now eternal (can be tapped for black without using a counter).
2) Tolaria West can be transmutted for any pact or Boseiju, even for a Lotus Bloom.
3) Boseiju, Who Shelters All is the ultimate control land. It gets us there.
Maindeck:
Several things are really relevant here:
1) 1 Mystical Teachings is really safe. It's surprising that in a really aggro meta how this card be relevant : CMC is slow, but it helps you having hands without the combo pieces but lots of mana rocks or useful cards coming from the sideboard. I've been keeping different starting hands with both Mystical Teachings in the deck : it needs more mana and I've been mulliganing to keep hands that are fast to increase the velocity of this tutor.
2) 2 Peer Throug Depth help really against Chalice of the Void to ensure that we still have cantrips. Also, it gets our combo pieces at instant speed.
3) Slaughter Pact becomes more and more useful with the heavy creatures meta environment.
Sideboard:
The idea of this sideboard is to find the cards. You virtualy have 3 copies of each instant cards because Mystical Teachings can find them, which is an amazing thing. Redundancy is way better than it seems and the sideboard covers a large spectrum of matchups. Mortify is surprisingly good.
In all, the manabase which is streamlined everywhere is designed around fastlands and painland, but it's very weak to Blood Moon and any sort of land destruction. Also, life is a ressource that must be used correctly in this game, so having the fetches provides a great equilibrium with the temples. Jonathan Benson, Derk Chad and Nicholas Byrd have been great in many high end tournaments with this kind of configuration and I have myself won a GPT and got to the finals of another GPT.
And if your not convince, just play what feels right for you.
Cheers!
Aggro: Naya Burn RWG
Combo: Scapeshift RG
Control: Jeskai Control UWR
Legacy
Control: Miracles UW
Aggro: Burn R
Our deck isn't really weak to moon anyway, we run 8 artifacts that can help fix it and the MD Echoing Truth that's becoming standard helps as well. Life is a scarce resource in a Humans/Hollow One meta and the Fetch-Shock manabase doesn't seem to be correct by the results we've seen.
Tolaria still feels too slow right now to MD it. I agree with you on Teachings/Peer/Slaughter Pact though, and the benefits of Teachings when building a SB is pretty sweet. That being said, Haze hasn't been great since Infect died and Bontu's got printed and I don't know why you're running the Dispel (Run the 4th Pact, or if it's specifically for Control run a second Boseiju).
The fact is that at the moment and since 2 years, the deck as been pushed back into tier 2-3 territory. Out of the 8 most played decks in Modern, we have :
- Tron, which should be a piece of cake.
- Humans, which is impossible.
- Jeskai Control should be easy.
- Pyromancer decks seem grindy and maybe 40/60 for them.
- Hollow One decks are rough for us.
- Burn should be easy.
- KCI is faster than us.
- Affinity should be 50/50 pre-board and 60/40 post-board with Stony Silence and Recall.
And we don't perform well. Storm was the combo deck for 2017, KCI is the combo deck for 2018 and Titanshift is the most consistent combo deck all around for a couple of years. We still are doing okay, but maybe thinking about some sideboarding options for those poor matchups should be our priority over anything else at the moment (even thinking about having more maindeck cards to ease up the though matchups).
Oh and I'm running Dispel because of control decks (Boseiju is always dead with FoR).
Aggro: Naya Burn RWG
Combo: Scapeshift RG
Control: Jeskai Control UWR
Legacy
Control: Miracles UW
Aggro: Burn R
Those results make no sense to reference, they're absurdly far out of date for the current meta. Sure Byrd may have been the only win, but if we just check the five open and classic results from this year they're all fetchless. It's also ridiculous to only look at wins: The difference between a top result and a win is usually tiny compared to the relative size of the event. You should likely be looking at "Tops". Further, the fact that Storm lists (Driven by the Scherer/Muller thinktank) have shifted to fetchless should be telling.
It's not the "easy" version, it's not inflexible, you're just ignorant to the current state of the meta and the deck.
The relative position in the meta hasn't really changed. It's not like we were ever "Tier 1" when those PT results were up, Boettcher's literally doesn't count and it's not unheard of for players to spike events with T2/3 decks (See GP Barcelona 2018 and Hardened Scales Affinity). We've always been a Tier 2 deck at best.
We're relatively easier to disrupt compared to Storm and KCI since these critical mass combo decks get to be better against discard. They've also been running about half a turn faster than us it seems, and with better resilience to hate (See Explosives in KCI and Gifts for Bounce in Storm). We've got a definite edge against control and Burn relative to those two at the cost of being slower. We also have a relatively lower play rate and no popular pro's playing the deck. The other bit of us not preforming well is Humans such a garbage matchup.
Further, saying that we should prioritize SBing continues to emphasize your lack of attention to how the deck is currently built. There's a reason most SB's are on 2 removal and 3 boardwipe (Humans), there's a reason we run 4 Leyline (Mardu), the Hurkyl's and Thoughtseizes too (KCI). The SB for the deck makes sense in it's stock form, you're just out of date (like I said earlier Haze really isn't great anymore). We have seen some MD adjustment in response to the meta already in the form of Echoing Truth coming into the main (and to a lesser extent, Slaughter Pact) and the 4th Unlife becoming standard MD. The MD has gotten very tight and streamlined lately and I feel as though the next adjustment possible in terms of increasing speed/efficiency is moving to 19/18 lands.
Fair enough on the Dispel, I prefer 2 Boseiju since the first usually is dead due to FoR but the second is very likely to stick; i.e. the first gains considerable value from the second. (That and them tapping mana for FoR is good for us anyway)
Infraction issued for flaming. --CavalryWolfPack
Aggro: Naya Burn RWG
Combo: Scapeshift RG
Control: Jeskai Control UWR
Legacy
Control: Miracles UW
Aggro: Burn R
Fetchless is provably the better manabase for the current meta. I'm being honest, not rude, you should try catching up on the years of data you're ignoring if you want to meaningfully contribute to the development of the deck.
I know the data and I'm not ignoring it. I see what wins, I know what gets played. I know fetches and shocks is not the popular choice, but that doesn't make it not viable nor bad. You implying I don't know what is happening with the deck is simply pedantic : I've contributed to this thread very intensively over the last three years. Something not being played doesn't make it unplayable.
I know that fastlands and temples have proven to be very efficient and I loved that version for a year. But, I prefer to play something different and I don't dismiss the quality of the lists we see right now. It's just not my taste and I would suggest in general for any player beginning with the deck to get the feel of it to play with 8 fastlands and 6 temples.
If by any chance you would be kind enough to share your knowledge about how to bring the deck to the next level, please enlighten us with your wisdom because our community needs a meaningful contribution to compensate for years of wasted discussion
Aggro: Naya Burn RWG
Combo: Scapeshift RG
Control: Jeskai Control UWR
Legacy
Control: Miracles UW
Aggro: Burn R
Anywho, here's the list of what I'm upset with you over. Sorry for calling you ignorant.
Contributed intensively: Credit for bringing up Timely, Dromoka, and Tarpit a while ago (even if they aren't good enough to make the cut), but a lot of your posts are just "Here's my deck, you should all play it" without much in the way of in-depth analysis or supporting data. By all means play what you like, but don't lie and say that it's the best.
I've already mentioned that I think 18/19 land considerations are a potential area of improvement (I'm leaning towards shaving two Temples for additional cantrips or the 4th Spoils), Gift SB seems weak but could be worth looking into (Someone mentioned it last page-ish), an aggregated SB guide from Wohlmacher's Primer and DaSneakyPete's list could be very useful.
Now to serious issues, had the idea to test imps mischief again (so much space in the sb w/out the leylines #feelsgoodman), and i must say redirecting abrupt decays, that were targetting P.Unlife, to goyfs and confidants, is priceless. <3
Anyway, I have thought of Axis of Mortality in the sideboard as an alternate for grindy matchups. If we are at negative life and if they can't deal 10 infect damage, then we win on our next upkeep assuming they can't remove the Axis and Unlife. Then if our life is still low, we can always switch to go back to 20 again. I used to have this combo way back in Standard which was Soul Conduit plus Unlife but Soul Conduit is too mana intensive to pull off in 1 turn.
"He traded sand for skins, skins for gold, gold for life. In the end, he traded life for sand."
—Afari, Tales
I was considering Settle the Wreckage for our boardwipe slot in SB. What do you guys think?
I was wondering how it was doing as of lately. There's a free modern FNM and 2 PPTQ's I was thinking about going to.
Also, are there any significant changes? I saw the 3 bontus(?) In the board. Also, no more dog's?
Thank you in advance.
(I am Stevethedoer, I just forgot all my info...)
I believe this is a great (and sad) truth of the deck at the moment. I've only started getting into the deck and have seen it from the same lenses. I enjoy the deck to a great degree, but sadly it's just not well positioned. Also, I don't see what it's going to take to bring it back up?
RUBDa ShadowBUR
RUBDa ShadowBUR