Sure, she is awesome in this deck. By the way, there's Forbidden Orchard in the manabase, but I was thinking in Glimmervoid instead. Glimmervoid, would certaninly leave play, but that wouldn't be a problem in this deck. Besides, it also has sinergy with Reflecting Pool.
On Mythic Rares: "What's next, Wizards will print six golden Black Lotuses and randomly place them in boosters, and if someone gets one, they get to tour the Wizards facility?"
I have not read the whole thread. So excuse this if already suggested, but has anyone thought of running March of the machines? This looks very good as a plan b and sometime steal a victory for you. Also good at stalling when needed.
I have not read the whole thread. So excuse this if already suggested, but has anyone thought of running March of the machines? This looks very good as a plan b and sometime steal a victory for you. Also good at stalling when needed.
Yeah, I really like the March of the Machines as a 2-of in my list. It isn't your preferred win-con, but it is the one that lets you just come back from nowhere. It is also pretty hilarious tech vs affinity and the equipment lists as it screws with their gameplans pretty hard (drop march, all mox opals die, all darksteel citadels die, cranial plating can't equip, etc).
I really recommend trying out my list if you're curious about the deck. Mine is one of the cheapest competitive lists out there (although I have fallen behind on testing since nacatl's banning), and it is far more consistent than any other restore balance (but is a little less resilient vs hate).
Just got to say, you've definitely earned distinction as an MTGS hero
Quote from Stardust »
Because he's the hero MTGS deserves, and the one it needs right now. So we'll global him. Because he can take it. Because he's not just our hero. He's a silent guardian, a watchful protector. An expired rascal.
Quote from LuckNorris »
ExpiredRascals you sir are a god-like hero.
Quote from Lanxal »
ER is a masterful god who cannot be beaten in any endeavour.
OK I did. How is that pw in your build? How do you deal with rule of law? How do you survive zoo? Doesn't a deck with just a few counters beat you pretty well? Cloudskate is really worth the slots?
Sorry, just a few obvious questions.
OK I did. How is that pw in your build? How do you deal with rule of law? How do you survive zoo? Doesn't a deck with just a few counters beat you pretty well? Cloudskate is really worth the slots?
Sorry, just a few obvious questions.
Ajani Vengeant is solid. Just extremely versatile and it makes recovering from balance that much harder for your opponent.
Counterspells were never that much of an issue if you're used to playing against them. Just carefully husband your cascades, and bring in ricochet traps from the SB. The only counterspell that will screw you big time is spellstutter sprite. Sprite is probably 70% of why faerie-twin is such a bad match-up.
Cloudskate is the best card to run in the maindeck for an unknown meta. It is one of the most common cards to SB out, but I always liked it in G1. What's also important is that it would be coming out for different cards in each match-up, so there is no easy switch to be made. I left them in vs zoo (I literally was so well positioned against zoo that I didn't have any SB cards to use against them).
Just got to say, you've definitely earned distinction as an MTGS hero
Quote from Stardust »
Because he's the hero MTGS deserves, and the one it needs right now. So we'll global him. Because he can take it. Because he's not just our hero. He's a silent guardian, a watchful protector. An expired rascal.
Quote from LuckNorris »
ExpiredRascals you sir are a god-like hero.
Quote from Lanxal »
ER is a masterful god who cannot be beaten in any endeavour.
How is the Affinity matchup for your decklist, ExpiredRascals? I haven't had a chance to test, but I don't see anyone speaking about it much, and it's the premier aggro deck right now.
How is the Affinity matchup for your decklist, ExpiredRascals? I haven't had a chance to test, but I don't see anyone speaking about it much, and it's the premier aggro deck right now.
It is a positive match-up, but pretty draw-dependent.
The problem is if they win the die roll, they have a reasonably large number of draws that end with you dead before your turn3. If you live to T3, you should win.
postboard you bring in more hate than they can deal with. Ingot chewers are especially strong.
Never side out march against them.
I haven't played against erayo affinity, but I assume it would be an easier match-up than normal affinity.
Just got to say, you've definitely earned distinction as an MTGS hero
Quote from Stardust »
Because he's the hero MTGS deserves, and the one it needs right now. So we'll global him. Because he can take it. Because he's not just our hero. He's a silent guardian, a watchful protector. An expired rascal.
Quote from LuckNorris »
ExpiredRascals you sir are a god-like hero.
Quote from Lanxal »
ER is a masterful god who cannot be beaten in any endeavour.
Your list looks interesting. I've been trying out various balance builds and have not yet found one I really like. How does your deck handle storm decks? Also, have you tried adding a few idyllic tutors to help grab march of the machines?
you need to make that t3 or t4 balance. A turn's delay will kill you.
This deck has the power to become more redundant than any other deck out there. That redundancy makes you have the strongest topdecking power and the greatest likelihood of finding what you need anyway.
10 land, 20 borderposts, 10 cascade. That is the core of my deck because it lets me have what other balance decks consider close to "the perfect hand" in most every game. The remaining 20 slots are so competitive that a tutor that costs me a turn just won't cut it, especially when I only have 2 targets for it as is the case with idyllic (ardent plea and march).
Also, I'd like to point out, that in my list, march isn't the preferred win con. It is very powerful, yes (that's why it makes the final 60), but it puts everything on the table. You can't balance anymore. Mass removal becomes suddenly amazing against you. March will end the game in 1-3 turns every single time, but it's like kaervek's spite: it needs to win you the game because if it doesn't, you have no recourse and it will have costed you the game.
March is a fine win-con, but remember that a suspended gargadon will be much stronger in most cases because if it fails, you just balance and then wait to try again.
Just got to say, you've definitely earned distinction as an MTGS hero
Quote from Stardust »
Because he's the hero MTGS deserves, and the one it needs right now. So we'll global him. Because he can take it. Because he's not just our hero. He's a silent guardian, a watchful protector. An expired rascal.
Quote from LuckNorris »
ExpiredRascals you sir are a god-like hero.
Quote from Lanxal »
ER is a masterful god who cannot be beaten in any endeavour.
Thanks for the info. I've been playing your version of the deck on MTGO. I have to say it is pretty solid. I replaced the dismembers with beast withins. I'm not sure if it is an improvement, but in previous balance deck's I've run I've found beasts to be a very versatile card. I think I'm going to give this deck a go tonight on Thursday Night Magic on MTGO. I would really like to stick Nihilith in the deck, but I just don't see anything to take out.
so can someone give me an idea of a typical turns 1-4 look like for this deck?
I've got the basic idea of suspending a Gargadon asap, then playing a cascade to hit balance. I'm just not quite sure how this looks when playing only 10 or so lands.
something like this maybe?
turn 1
Mountain, suspend GG
turn 2, play boarderpost, play the same land, and play 2nd boarder post (GG - 9 counters)
turn 3, play boarderpost, replay land, play cascade spell for balance, sac land to gg (GG -7 counters)..
are we wanting to just balance every few turns to clear the board and wait for GG to drop and start swinging? or is there something i'm missing that would let us have GG hit the board earlier?
Also, another question I was wondering, is what do you do if you topdeck a balance? just suspend it normally?
And i'm also curious of a few cards have been considered for the deck: Kuldotha Pheonix would not only put a huge amount of preasure on your opp, but the metal craft is easy to hit, and its easily recurable to not only swing (with evasion no less) and sac to GG. Grixis Charm comes close to doing what Dismember does, but also does a few other handy things.. this one is iffy i think.
And i'm also curious of a few cards have been considered for the deck: Kuldotha Pheonix would not only put a huge amount of preasure on your opp, but the metal craft is easy to hit, and its easily recurable to not only swing (with evasion no less) and sac to GG..
Kuldotha Pheonix is interesting. In the little bit that I've played with this deck though I'm not sure if a situation came up where I could afford the casting cost. If you could reliably get it into your graveyard from your hand it might be effective, otherwise it will probably just sit in your hand. Usually when I cascade a balance, I have the smaller hand so I don't have to discard. Perhaps as a sideboard card against decks that have a lot of discard.
As for your other questions, that is pretty much how I play the deck. Suspend a gargadon, get the borderposts out, cascade to a balance. I almost allways end up with at least a balance in my hand at some point. I've had some luck just suspending it normally and then setting up a gargadon to come into play right after it resolves.
ya know... i've seen 3 or so total posts discussing Reminisce and one of those mentioned Loaming Shaman and I find it really odd that none of the major decklists even run these cards in the sideboard. One would think that the ability to recur Balances from the GY would be rather important. I believe that it might even be worth slotting in 2 mainboard.
I think there should be some serious discussion of these 2 cards.. mostly discussing whether its better to have the ability on legs (Shaman) so you can play it right after resolving a balance.. and then work on attacking (then sac to Garga).. or using Reminisce to get back the whole GY, including sac'd lands and Boarderposts... all without putting a creature in play.
ya know... i've seen 3 or so total posts discussing Reminisce and one of those mentioned Loaming Shaman and I find it really odd that none of the major decklists even run these cards in the sideboard. One would think that the ability to recur Balances from the GY would be rather important. I believe that it might even be worth slotting in 2 mainboard.
I think there should be some serious discussion of these 2 cards.. mostly discussing whether its better to have the ability on legs (Shaman) so you can play it right after resolving a balance.. and then work on attacking (then sac to Garga).. or using Reminisce to get back the whole GY, including sac'd lands and Boarderposts... all without putting a creature in play.
I was previously running a balance deck that used loaming shaman as a 2 of. It was definitely helpful at times. I think the shaman is somewhat better than Reminisce since it gives you a body to block or attack and something to sac to gargadon. Also, you really only want your balances back and maybe some violent outbursts from the graveyard. I'm not sure how important the card really is though. I've been running ExpiredRascals version and in the games I lose it has not been because I ran out of balances. Most of my loses have come from not being able to get a balance off by turn 3 or 4 or getting hosed by hate cards like Rule of Law.
I could see Kuldotha Phoenix in a list with borderposts and Liliana of the Veil. The problem being the deck is already quite tight, and finding room would be difficult.
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On Mythic Rares: "What's next, Wizards will print six golden Black Lotuses and randomly place them in boosters, and if someone gets one, they get to tour the Wizards facility?"
Ok, lots of card discussion. I'll try to weigh in on each that was brought up.
The problem with kuldotha phoenix is that it is only good when in your graveyard and it only will get there against hyper-aggressive decks (those that will have a lower hand size than you). Those decks aren't the ones where a recursive beater is needed.
I wouldn't run liliana of the veil. I just don't think she does enough for us. the double black is a little rough too.
Loaming shaman is a card that I've considered multiple times in the past. He does very good things for the deck when you run out of balances. Sadly, I don't think this is often or predictable enough to warrant the spot on the SB. Reminisce is essentially a worse shaman.
Grixis Charm doesn't fulfill the same role as dismember. Dismember has no colour requirements and is playable on one mana. This is DRASTIC difference in play, and why I run it. Having 1-mana answers in a deck with no CMCs below 3 is very important.
Just got to say, you've definitely earned distinction as an MTGS hero
Quote from Stardust »
Because he's the hero MTGS deserves, and the one it needs right now. So we'll global him. Because he can take it. Because he's not just our hero. He's a silent guardian, a watchful protector. An expired rascal.
Quote from LuckNorris »
ExpiredRascals you sir are a god-like hero.
Quote from Lanxal »
ER is a masterful god who cannot be beaten in any endeavour.
Loaming shaman is also randomly good. Ive used it to put back uncastable cards or to put back fetch lands in games where they are manaflooded. He is also pretty good against storm pif, dredge, and gift decks. Should get a few sb slots.
It's down side is you can't always have them set up to get the advantage of setting them back by putting uncastables or extra lands. Sorry hard to word that. Trying to say that the situation is often different, and this deck does not create situations where he is really good.
Also it's very hard to judge how strong an effect of putting back 5 cards that they can't cast due to a balance. You can't really judge that. Starting to place little #s on the bottoms to see how often a card is redrawn due to his effect. Playtesting I mean.
Finally ordered the cards, except i'm going to be short 1 balance (stupid thing.. thought i had one, and only ordered 3, turns out i either cant find it, or i never had one). I guess in the mean time i'll be running with the loaming shaman that i did order to make up the difference, until i can get down to a LCS and pick one up.
hopefully the cards should be here by friday, so i can play around and test with them.
Just got to say, you've definitely earned distinction as an MTGS hero
Quote from Stardust »
Because he's the hero MTGS deserves, and the one it needs right now. So we'll global him. Because he can take it. Because he's not just our hero. He's a silent guardian, a watchful protector. An expired rascal.
Quote from LuckNorris »
ExpiredRascals you sir are a god-like hero.
Quote from Lanxal »
ER is a masterful god who cannot be beaten in any endeavour.
Quote from votan »
:ER:, you suck as a hero
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There's also Tendo Ice Bridge.
On Mythic Rares: "What's next, Wizards will print six golden Black Lotuses and randomly place them in boosters, and if someone gets one, they get to tour the Wizards facility?"
Wydwen|Edric|Sakashima|Marrow-Gnawer|Hazezon
8.5 Tails|Seton|Rasputin|Doran|Gisela|Karona|Márton
Yeah, I really like the March of the Machines as a 2-of in my list. It isn't your preferred win-con, but it is the one that lets you just come back from nowhere. It is also pretty hilarious tech vs affinity and the equipment lists as it screws with their gameplans pretty hard (drop march, all mox opals die, all darksteel citadels die, cranial plating can't equip, etc).
I really recommend trying out my list if you're curious about the deck. Mine is one of the cheapest competitive lists out there (although I have fallen behind on testing since nacatl's banning), and it is far more consistent than any other restore balance (but is a little less resilient vs hate).
Body Count: GRRRUUUUUUUUUUU
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Sorry, just a few obvious questions.
Ajani Vengeant is solid. Just extremely versatile and it makes recovering from balance that much harder for your opponent.
Rule of Law/Ethersworn Canonist are dealt with through ingot chewer, dismember, krosan grip, or riftwing cloudskate.
Let's not forget that somewhat often you'll suspend atleast 1 balance.
You should be able to force a balance through them.
Counterspells were never that much of an issue if you're used to playing against them. Just carefully husband your cascades, and bring in ricochet traps from the SB. The only counterspell that will screw you big time is spellstutter sprite. Sprite is probably 70% of why faerie-twin is such a bad match-up.
Cloudskate is the best card to run in the maindeck for an unknown meta. It is one of the most common cards to SB out, but I always liked it in G1. What's also important is that it would be coming out for different cards in each match-up, so there is no easy switch to be made. I left them in vs zoo (I literally was so well positioned against zoo that I didn't have any SB cards to use against them).
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It is a positive match-up, but pretty draw-dependent.
The problem is if they win the die roll, they have a reasonably large number of draws that end with you dead before your turn3. If you live to T3, you should win.
postboard you bring in more hate than they can deal with. Ingot chewers are especially strong.
Never side out march against them.
I haven't played against erayo affinity, but I assume it would be an easier match-up than normal affinity.
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you need to make that t3 or t4 balance. A turn's delay will kill you.
This deck has the power to become more redundant than any other deck out there. That redundancy makes you have the strongest topdecking power and the greatest likelihood of finding what you need anyway.
10 land, 20 borderposts, 10 cascade. That is the core of my deck because it lets me have what other balance decks consider close to "the perfect hand" in most every game. The remaining 20 slots are so competitive that a tutor that costs me a turn just won't cut it, especially when I only have 2 targets for it as is the case with idyllic (ardent plea and march).
Also, I'd like to point out, that in my list, march isn't the preferred win con. It is very powerful, yes (that's why it makes the final 60), but it puts everything on the table. You can't balance anymore. Mass removal becomes suddenly amazing against you. March will end the game in 1-3 turns every single time, but it's like kaervek's spite: it needs to win you the game because if it doesn't, you have no recourse and it will have costed you the game.
March is a fine win-con, but remember that a suspended gargadon will be much stronger in most cases because if it fails, you just balance and then wait to try again.
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My Cube for use with 6th ed. Rules
I've got the basic idea of suspending a Gargadon asap, then playing a cascade to hit balance. I'm just not quite sure how this looks when playing only 10 or so lands.
something like this maybe?
turn 1
Mountain, suspend GG
turn 2, play boarderpost, play the same land, and play 2nd boarder post (GG - 9 counters)
turn 3, play boarderpost, replay land, play cascade spell for balance, sac land to gg (GG -7 counters)..
are we wanting to just balance every few turns to clear the board and wait for GG to drop and start swinging? or is there something i'm missing that would let us have GG hit the board earlier?
Also, another question I was wondering, is what do you do if you topdeck a balance? just suspend it normally?
And i'm also curious of a few cards have been considered for the deck:
Kuldotha Pheonix would not only put a huge amount of preasure on your opp, but the metal craft is easy to hit, and its easily recurable to not only swing (with evasion no less) and sac to GG.
Grixis Charm comes close to doing what Dismember does, but also does a few other handy things.. this one is iffy i think.
Kuldotha Pheonix is interesting. In the little bit that I've played with this deck though I'm not sure if a situation came up where I could afford the casting cost. If you could reliably get it into your graveyard from your hand it might be effective, otherwise it will probably just sit in your hand. Usually when I cascade a balance, I have the smaller hand so I don't have to discard. Perhaps as a sideboard card against decks that have a lot of discard.
As for your other questions, that is pretty much how I play the deck. Suspend a gargadon, get the borderposts out, cascade to a balance. I almost allways end up with at least a balance in my hand at some point. I've had some luck just suspending it normally and then setting up a gargadon to come into play right after it resolves.
I think there should be some serious discussion of these 2 cards.. mostly discussing whether its better to have the ability on legs (Shaman) so you can play it right after resolving a balance.. and then work on attacking (then sac to Garga).. or using Reminisce to get back the whole GY, including sac'd lands and Boarderposts... all without putting a creature in play.
I was previously running a balance deck that used loaming shaman as a 2 of. It was definitely helpful at times. I think the shaman is somewhat better than Reminisce since it gives you a body to block or attack and something to sac to gargadon. Also, you really only want your balances back and maybe some violent outbursts from the graveyard. I'm not sure how important the card really is though. I've been running ExpiredRascals version and in the games I lose it has not been because I ran out of balances. Most of my loses have come from not being able to get a balance off by turn 3 or 4 or getting hosed by hate cards like Rule of Law.
On Mythic Rares: "What's next, Wizards will print six golden Black Lotuses and randomly place them in boosters, and if someone gets one, they get to tour the Wizards facility?"
Wydwen|Edric|Sakashima|Marrow-Gnawer|Hazezon
8.5 Tails|Seton|Rasputin|Doran|Gisela|Karona|Márton
The problem with kuldotha phoenix is that it is only good when in your graveyard and it only will get there against hyper-aggressive decks (those that will have a lower hand size than you). Those decks aren't the ones where a recursive beater is needed.
I wouldn't run liliana of the veil. I just don't think she does enough for us. the double black is a little rough too.
Loaming shaman is a card that I've considered multiple times in the past. He does very good things for the deck when you run out of balances. Sadly, I don't think this is often or predictable enough to warrant the spot on the SB. Reminisce is essentially a worse shaman.
Grixis Charm doesn't fulfill the same role as dismember. Dismember has no colour requirements and is playable on one mana. This is DRASTIC difference in play, and why I run it. Having 1-mana answers in a deck with no CMCs below 3 is very important.
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It's down side is you can't always have them set up to get the advantage of setting them back by putting uncastables or extra lands. Sorry hard to word that. Trying to say that the situation is often different, and this deck does not create situations where he is really good.
Also it's very hard to judge how strong an effect of putting back 5 cards that they can't cast due to a balance. You can't really judge that. Starting to place little #s on the bottoms to see how often a card is redrawn due to his effect. Playtesting I mean.
hopefully the cards should be here by friday, so i can play around and test with them.
Have you tested some of the other builds in this thread for comparison?
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