One thing I just noticed that's kind of cute is that you can win after Melira Pod's infinite life combo if you pack a Wheel of Sun and Moon in your SB (which is relevant anyways).
Basically, just start comboing off, and at the end wish for the Wheel when you're low enough on cards, and cycle through 2 draw effects.
How does the WoSaM anti-infinite work if I assume they have 10,000,000 life and the combo intact? Do I enchant myself and hope they don't gain another 10,000,000 life in response to my kill spell/combat swing, or do I enchant them?
I would imagine that you enchant yourself with WoSaM and point your grapeshot, or whatever your win condition of choice is, at the combo to break it up, then generate enough storm/mana with your last cantrips and then point the kill spell at their face.
He's saying that if they have an infinite life combo, like with Spike Feeder/Angel, then they can just do the combo again to gain more life in response. An instant speed infinite life combo will always beat an infinite damage one because the damage one has to pick a number first, and the life can pick to gain more than that.
Yeah, I was implying that their combo was no longer active. You can easily have a Rakdos Charm or removal for Melira/Spike Weaver in the board to deal with their combo, though.
EDIT: Also, Lectrys - I saw on another thread that this deck's MU vs. G(r) Tron was even, which I found surprising (I expected it to be heavily in Ascendancy's favor). Have you playtested the MU much? If so, what are the key cards/strategies on each side?
You laugh. Honestly. If my opponent plays a Revoker, I'm scared, because that shuts off whichever mana dork I have in play. But it doesn't actually have any interaction with Glittering Wish.
Ah, I'm an idiot lol. Totally mis-remembered the Revoker.
well actually glittering wish for rakdos charm also stops twin combo and kiki pod. wish for a loxodon smiter if you smell a liliana coming. wish for a izzet charm to kill off the melira, counter twin
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You laugh. Honestly. If my opponent plays a Revoker, I'm scared, because that shuts off whichever mana dork I have in play. But it doesn't actually have any interaction with Glittering Wish.
Ah, I'm an idiot lol. Totally mis-remembered the Revoker.
From my experience testing against it as a burn player; Eidolon seems to shut the deck down unless it can wish for an answer. I don't see this deck running into too many Eidolons unless it's facing off against burn. I could be off base but from my experience Eidolon is a good way of putting the deck into check so to speak.
[quote from="Slivortal »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/modern-deck-creation/573634-ascendancy-storm?comment=83"]One thing I just noticed that's kind of cute is that you can win after Melira Pod's infinite life combo if you pack a Wheel of Sun and Moon in your SB (which is relevant anyways).
Basically, just start comboing off, and at the end wish for the Wheel when you're low enough on cards, and cycle through 2 draw effects.
How does the WoSaM anti-infinite work if I assume they have 10,000,000 life and the combo intact? Do I enchant myself and hope they don't gain another 10,000,000 life in response to my kill spell/combat swing, or do I enchant them?
I play Mind Grind and Rakdos charm as an alternate/no target needed/multiplayer wincon. Get the charm vs Tron. Otherwise, no need for it. Emrakul triggers after mill, exile in response et voila.
Since Serum Vision is a 7$ common over here, i'm waiting for a reprint before getting some. So, i've replaced them with Twisted Image and Thought Scour 2/2 split. Scour seems great with Treasur Cruise.
One thing I just noticed that's kind of cute is that you can win after Melira Pod's infinite life combo if you pack a Wheel of Sun and Moon in your SB (which is relevant anyways).
Basically, just start comboing off, and at the end wish for the Wheel when you're low enough on cards, and cycle through 2 draw effects.
How does the WoSaM anti-infinite work if I assume they have 10,000,000 life and the combo intact? Do I enchant myself and hope they don't gain another 10,000,000 life in response to my kill spell/combat swing, or do I enchant them?
I would imagine that you enchant yourself with WoSaM and point your grapeshot, or whatever your win condition of choice is, at the combo to break it up, then generate enough storm/mana with your last cantrips and then point the kill spell at their face.
He's saying that if they have an infinite life combo, like with Spike Feeder/Angel, then they can just do the combo again to gain more life in response. An instant speed infinite life combo will always beat an infinite damage one because the damage one has to pick a number first, and the life can pick to gain more than that.
More accurately, infinite lifegain beats sorcery speed infinite damage. If you can preform repeated infinite damage combos on your opponents turn they aren't allowed to repeatedly use an infinite life combo to survive. The active player is the one responsible for breaking stalemates of optional abilities/spells, which would mean they have to just eat the infinite damage.
As mentioned before, Noah Long won a tournament this past weekend with the deck. He's one of the more known Canadian players. I sat down with him and he has thoughts on an updated list.
Yeah, I was implying that their combo was no longer active. You can easily have a Rakdos Charm or removal for Melira/Spike Weaver in the board to deal with their combo, though.
EDIT: Also, Lectrys - I saw on another thread that this deck's MU vs. G(r) Tron was even, which I found surprising (I expected it to be heavily in Ascendancy's favor). Have you playtested the MU much? If so, what are the key cards/strategies on each side?
I should test more, and I play a slower build, but Oblivion Stone is a huge beating that distracts me into finding removal. Turn 3 Karn is also nigh-unbeatable. Pyroclasm does good work against Sam Black builds.
You laugh. Honestly. If my opponent plays a Revoker, I'm scared, because that shuts off whichever mana dork I have in play. But it doesn't actually have any interaction with Glittering Wish.
Ah, I'm an idiot lol. Totally mis-remembered the Revoker.
From my experience testing against it as a burn player; Eidolon seems to shut the deck down unless it can wish for an answer. I don't see this deck running into too many Eidolons unless it's facing off against burn. I could be off base but from my experience Eidolon is a good way of putting the deck into check so to speak.
Caleb Durward mentioned this deck in his article today.
Most of his changes are OK, except one: cutting Treasure Cruise to 2. Don't do that. He says that it takes up space in your hand early in the combo, but honestly it's not that hard to get 7 cards in the graveyard after a few cantrips.
His other justification, that looting from Ascendancy should make it harder to fizzle, is also incorrect. Treasure Cruise does so much more than Ascendancy loots when it comes to extending your combo. When I play the deck I'm confident that I'm in the clear if I resolve a Cruise, even if I never looted once prior to casting Cruise. I'm not in the clear if I loot 10 times and have yet to see a Cruise.
If you have 3 cards in hand, no matter how much cantripping or looting you do, you will end up with 3 cards in hand. Over the course of the combo those 3 cards can range from 3 cantrips to 3 non-cantrips - as soon as you hit 3 non-cantrips it's curtains; good luck swinging with your mana dork. Treasure Cruise solves this by turning that 3-card hand into a 5-card hand - you now have a wider "range", so to speak, and the spectrum of values in that 5-card hand for which you fizzle is smaller than the spectrum of values in the 3-card hand for which you fizzle. The RNG gods have to work much harder to screw you over, because now you only fizzle if all 5 cards are non-cantrips as opposed to 3. And it's very likely that Cruise drew you into one or two cantrips.
If anything, the fact that Ascendancy lets you loot should be a justification for adding MORE Cruises into the deck, since you can just loot them away if they're dead at that point into the combo.
I've been running a Naya Charm in my wish board and really liking it. All 3 modes have some relevance. The mode that I've used it for mostly was to tap down ALL opposing creatures for the alpha strike. Additionally, I've discarded Grapeshot early in the combo knowing that I could get it back with Naya Charm later once my hand is more established and I have more mana available. The 3rd mode doesn't come up all that much, but dealing 3 damage to a creature can be useful in some cases.
It may not be necessary as the deck gets more streamlined and winning with a single Flesh // Blood is the wincon of choice. Just throwing it out there as an option with a couple useful modes.
More people need to be playing 4x Ideas Unbound. That cards is entirely insane in this deck - especially when combined with fatestitchers.
The 1 cmc cantrips are great, but a 2 cmc card that digs 3 deep, allows you to pitch extra unusable cards (or fatestitchers) is exactly what you need. It also becomes Treasure cruise 4-8 the turn of your combo, which makes it incredibly valuable since you pretty much can't fizzle if you resolve 1 of those 8 cards. Further, it's a strong dig spell when opponents bring in graveyard hate such as rest in peace, which hinders your ability to use Treasure Cruise in the first place. On that same note, the entire notion of card disadvantage due to looting becomes irrelevant when you play 4x treasure cruise since this allows you to regain any card disadvantage you had previously lost (while the looting effects also fill your graveyard much quicker)
And on that note, more people need to be playing fatestitchers. Keep in mind, you are almost never going to hardcast fatestitcher. Fatestitcher allows you to combo off with only an ascendancy in play with a high level of ease. Sylvan caryatid is great for evading removal, but it requires you to untap with it before going off. Fatestitcher provides a ton of inevitability if you can simply stick an ascendancy, since you can then just cantrip your way into a fatestitcher, unearth, then win off it. The same is technically true of Wind Zendikon as well, but zendikon can't be played out of the graveyard, and a bolt will send that land back to your hand, which can be rather disadvantageous.
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against infinite life decks/situations I was pondering whether to run inkmoth nexus or not. once made 10+ in size from jeskai triggers I thought it viable to wish for blood and toss all that infect at an infinite lifer. viable or not so viable?
maybe laboratory maniac is a better alternative wincon? I haven't been in a situation to deck myself yet.
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against infinite life decks/situations I was pondering whether to run inkmoth nexus or not. once made 10+ in size from jeskai triggers I thought it viable to wish for blood and toss all that infect at an infinite lifer. viable or not so viable?
maybe laboratory maniac is a better alternative wincon? I haven't been in a situation to deck myself yet.
If you have enough mana, Villainous Wealth will do the trick. You can wish for it, it dodges an active Melira, and it doesn't care about Eldrazi shenanigans (in the event that Eldrazi players somehow also got three billion life).
Just wish for something that breaks up their life gain combo, Far // Away works, wish for WoSaM, then go infinite yourself and kill them how you normally would. Infinite life means you're more likely to fizzle since you have to break their combo before killing them but you can still kill them. Postboard, you can board in a Helix or something to break up their combo to make it easier on the wishing.
In no Haste dork builds, never. You need your cantrip/CA slot to be cheap, and 4 mana is way too expensive.
I don't like it in Haste dork builds, either--I once nearly got screwed out of casting a Wished-for Esper Charm (this was before I switched to Scarscale Ritual), and Whispering Madness lets them draw into removal.
How has Fiery Justice worked for people? I may cut it for another option. That and Simic Charm.
Fiery Justice has been fine for me--it's killed Qasali Pridemage and Tidehollow Sculler before, as well as Linvala + Viscera Seer (I think I still lost both games, though), and I typically board it in against Pod and Affinity. I've found that Worm Harvest kicks BGx Midrange's butt hard enough that I've taken out the less reliable Simic Charm.
On vs. Melira Pod's infinite life:
In testing, every game Melira Pod won, they won with hate bears and less than 30 life. Winning through Archangel Spike Pod's infinite life is more feasible with Haste dorks, but I bet they'll win with hate bears and less than 30 life, too.
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He's saying that if they have an infinite life combo, like with Spike Feeder/Angel, then they can just do the combo again to gain more life in response. An instant speed infinite life combo will always beat an infinite damage one because the damage one has to pick a number first, and the life can pick to gain more than that.
EDIT: Also, Lectrys - I saw on another thread that this deck's MU vs. G(r) Tron was even, which I found surprising (I expected it to be heavily in Ascendancy's favor). Have you playtested the MU much? If so, what are the key cards/strategies on each side?
GX Tron XG
UR Phoenix RU
GG Freyalise High Tide GG
UR Parun Counterspells RU
BB Yawgmoth Token Storm BB
WB Pestilence BW
Ah, I'm an idiot lol. Totally mis-remembered the Revoker.
Still what are your ideas against the creature based hate? Things like Eidolon of the Great Revel or Ethersworn Canonist?
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From my experience testing against it as a burn player; Eidolon seems to shut the deck down unless it can wish for an answer. I don't see this deck running into too many Eidolons unless it's facing off against burn. I could be off base but from my experience Eidolon is a good way of putting the deck into check so to speak.
I play Mind Grind and Rakdos charm as an alternate/no target needed/multiplayer wincon. Get the charm vs Tron. Otherwise, no need for it. Emrakul triggers after mill, exile in response et voila.
Noxious Revival?
Mind Grind?
Thought Scour?
Since Serum Vision is a 7$ common over here, i'm waiting for a reprint before getting some. So, i've replaced them with Twisted Image and Thought Scour 2/2 split. Scour seems great with Treasur Cruise.
More accurately, infinite lifegain beats sorcery speed infinite damage. If you can preform repeated infinite damage combos on your opponents turn they aren't allowed to repeatedly use an infinite life combo to survive. The active player is the one responsible for breaking stalemates of optional abilities/spells, which would mean they have to just eat the infinite damage.
http://manadeprived.com/captains-log-15-noahs-ascendancy/
1 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Mana Confluence
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Stomping Ground
1 Temple Garden
2 Breeding Pool
Creatures
4 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Jeskai Ascendancy
4 Glittering Wish
4 Serum Visions
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Sleight of Hand
4 Manamorphose
4 Treasure Cruise
4 Cerulean Wisps
2 Silence
1 Jeskai Ascendancy
1 Flesh // Blood
1 Wear // Tear
1 Fiery Justice
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Scarscale Ritual
1 Guttural Response
3 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Path to Exile
3 Swan Song
I should test more, and I play a slower build, but Oblivion Stone is a huge beating that distracts me into finding removal. Turn 3 Karn is also nigh-unbeatable. Pyroclasm does good work against Sam Black builds.
My anti-red Eidolon tech is Lightning Helix and maindeck Pyrite Spellbomb. Everything else eats some other Wishboard answer such as Abrupt Decay and Fiery Justice.
Most of his changes are OK, except one: cutting Treasure Cruise to 2. Don't do that. He says that it takes up space in your hand early in the combo, but honestly it's not that hard to get 7 cards in the graveyard after a few cantrips.
His other justification, that looting from Ascendancy should make it harder to fizzle, is also incorrect. Treasure Cruise does so much more than Ascendancy loots when it comes to extending your combo. When I play the deck I'm confident that I'm in the clear if I resolve a Cruise, even if I never looted once prior to casting Cruise. I'm not in the clear if I loot 10 times and have yet to see a Cruise.
If you have 3 cards in hand, no matter how much cantripping or looting you do, you will end up with 3 cards in hand. Over the course of the combo those 3 cards can range from 3 cantrips to 3 non-cantrips - as soon as you hit 3 non-cantrips it's curtains; good luck swinging with your mana dork. Treasure Cruise solves this by turning that 3-card hand into a 5-card hand - you now have a wider "range", so to speak, and the spectrum of values in that 5-card hand for which you fizzle is smaller than the spectrum of values in the 3-card hand for which you fizzle. The RNG gods have to work much harder to screw you over, because now you only fizzle if all 5 cards are non-cantrips as opposed to 3. And it's very likely that Cruise drew you into one or two cantrips.
If anything, the fact that Ascendancy lets you loot should be a justification for adding MORE Cruises into the deck, since you can just loot them away if they're dead at that point into the combo.
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Here's my updated list:
4 Mana Confluence/City of Brass
2 Stomping Ground
1 Temple Garden
4 Windswept Heath
2 Flooded Strand
1 Island
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Sylvan Caryatid
2 Fatestitcher
4 Cerulean Wisps
4 Manamorphose
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Serum Visions
4 Sleight of Hand
3 Treasure Cruise
4 Glittering Wish
1 Jeskai Ascendancy
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Scarscale Ritual
1 Flesh // Blood
1 Guttural Response
1 Wear // Tear
1 Rakdos Charm
1 Simic Charm
1 Sphinx's Revelation
1 Debt to the Deathless
1 Fiery Justice
2 Swan Song
2 Leyline of Sanctity
"There are no two words in the English language more harmful than 'good job'." -Terrance Fletcher, Whiplash (2014)
It may not be necessary as the deck gets more streamlined and winning with a single Flesh // Blood is the wincon of choice. Just throwing it out there as an option with a couple useful modes.
"There are no two words in the English language more harmful than 'good job'." -Terrance Fletcher, Whiplash (2014)
The 1 cmc cantrips are great, but a 2 cmc card that digs 3 deep, allows you to pitch extra unusable cards (or fatestitchers) is exactly what you need. It also becomes Treasure cruise 4-8 the turn of your combo, which makes it incredibly valuable since you pretty much can't fizzle if you resolve 1 of those 8 cards. Further, it's a strong dig spell when opponents bring in graveyard hate such as rest in peace, which hinders your ability to use Treasure Cruise in the first place. On that same note, the entire notion of card disadvantage due to looting becomes irrelevant when you play 4x treasure cruise since this allows you to regain any card disadvantage you had previously lost (while the looting effects also fill your graveyard much quicker)
And on that note, more people need to be playing fatestitchers. Keep in mind, you are almost never going to hardcast fatestitcher. Fatestitcher allows you to combo off with only an ascendancy in play with a high level of ease. Sylvan caryatid is great for evading removal, but it requires you to untap with it before going off. Fatestitcher provides a ton of inevitability if you can simply stick an ascendancy, since you can then just cantrip your way into a fatestitcher, unearth, then win off it. The same is technically true of Wind Zendikon as well, but zendikon can't be played out of the graveyard, and a bolt will send that land back to your hand, which can be rather disadvantageous.
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maybe laboratory maniac is a better alternative wincon? I haven't been in a situation to deck myself yet.
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If you have enough mana, Villainous Wealth will do the trick. You can wish for it, it dodges an active Melira, and it doesn't care about Eldrazi shenanigans (in the event that Eldrazi players somehow also got three billion life).
In no Haste dork builds, never. You need your cantrip/CA slot to be cheap, and 4 mana is way too expensive.
I don't like it in Haste dork builds, either--I once nearly got screwed out of casting a Wished-for Esper Charm (this was before I switched to Scarscale Ritual), and Whispering Madness lets them draw into removal.
Fiery Justice has been fine for me--it's killed Qasali Pridemage and Tidehollow Sculler before, as well as Linvala + Viscera Seer (I think I still lost both games, though), and I typically board it in against Pod and Affinity. I've found that Worm Harvest kicks BGx Midrange's butt hard enough that I've taken out the less reliable Simic Charm.
On vs. Melira Pod's infinite life:
In testing, every game Melira Pod won, they won with hate bears and less than 30 life. Winning through Archangel Spike Pod's infinite life is more feasible with Haste dorks, but I bet they'll win with hate bears and less than 30 life, too.