Without the manamorphose, you don't have the option to turn your red mana into black. That shuts off any lines that require reanimating Borbor from the bin, and locks you in to having a the Borbor and a Breach in hand *and* being able to get up to at least 4 mana to splice the Breach onto a Shoal or getting to 5 mana to cast in naturally. Both are possible, but discard into Goryo's path usually has a lot less requirements. This means you may need to delay going off for a turn (to have an extra black producing land untapped) or fizzling (because you can't get the complete Breach version combo in hand before you run out of life/shoals).
Going to a 2/2 split of Manamorphose and Decay would be about as low as I'd be willing to go.
Lossett's version, despite his slipping a little I think is close. Don't think you can maindeck Leyline though, he seemed to lose a lot to just not drawing the right cards. I would try a 4th Powder and maybe a 3rd Pull in those slots in the main at least.
I think the shoal version is the most consistent I've seen. And I agree with the above sentiment that manamorphose is a must. You often draw 14, pitch two spirit guides, manamorphose them into black red and goryos away.
I'm fairly new to this deck but could you not run b/r filter lands so you can filter Simian Spirit Guide's mana into black and thoughtseize yourself to remove griselbrand from your hand and cast goryo's vengeance turn 1 (using the two guides) to cheat in griselbrand and keep paying life to get additional combat phases from fury of the horde to win turn 1.
The huge problem with filterlands is, that you have to mulligan nearly every hand which contains no other land than the filter land. Also, comboing of on turn 1 is cute, but you don't need it, since those draws allows you to kill the opponent on turn 2, which is more than enough. If the opponent has a removal (e.g. Path) it is fine, since you still can draw 7-14 cards and make the same play next turn but with Emrakul. Furthermore, it makes the SB Blood Moons even worse, since you have to cut some number of basics to fit them in (and you can't afford to cut your swamps/fetches, since you need B). Conclusion: I wouldn't trade the possibility of Turn 1 kills for the decrease in the consistency of the manabase.
This is actually the first time I've played against it, game one he managed to pull of a turn two win via summoners pact through hive mind, game 2 i boarded in blood moons but wasn't able to draw it despite the aggresive mulls but I managed to combo off while he was trying to resolve a titan turn 3, game 3 was turn too slow he managed to win by pact of negation on my blood moon i needed another land drop for a shoaled breach on turn 4. I guess I'll grab me a couple of abrupt decays then, how many should i board in? Should I board it in with blood moon?
Amulet Bloom is a race, but beside it's nut draw (turn 2 Hive Mind kill otp) we are faster, by around 1 turn. Also, sometimes you can combo off with the pact trigger on the stack (I did this already several times), but I would advise against playing TTB against Hive Mind (can result to awkward moments, when he gets Titan into play and you wanted to kill him with Wurm).
Lossett's version, despite his slipping a little I think is close. Don't think you can maindeck Leyline though, he seemed to lose a lot to just not drawing the right cards. I would try a 4th Powder and maybe a 3rd Pull in those slots in the main at least.
Just checked it, he went 4-4 in modern. There are some things I like about his deck (like Pull+Powder) and some stuff I hate (like Pull+Powder, I know, it may sound strange, but I hate and like them). I understand what he wanted to achieve with this deck (the fastest and consistent kill in Modern), but I think the Shoal version is better suited for this. I think, that an all-in version (like this) can compete, but it will always lack something. I would have gone for the full all-in build (another powder, SSG, Tormenting Voices, kick a TTB (to "slow") and the Leylines), and have the "hate" cards in the SB. Also I miss the Pact of Negation here, when he goes that hard on the all-in route.
Built the deck last night (shoal version) and hated the manamorphose...what do you guys think about replacing them with 4 Decay? Shores up the infect and twin matchups and gives you a little bit of interaction. Plus you can still pitch to shoal.
Also, thoughts about Murderous Cut and or sickening shoal main or sideboarded?
You need at least 2 Manamorphose to be able to filter the R mana into B (or G when you need to cast Decay, or whatever when you have to pay for a Hive Mind Pact). The other two are kinda flex slots, but you should play something G in there. ATM I run 2 Noxious Revival in the 3-4 Manamorphose slot, since they are great at grinding through Countermagic and Discard. Also they can be used in the Combo turn (when you need another Shoal but you didn't draw one, or as ramp with Desperate Ritual).
I have to test the manabase more, but so far I like it. I'm thinking of kicking the Forest for another Blackcleave Cliffs, since it can get pretty awkward with the opening 7 (and I don't need it that often, even post board).
The changes (compared with my last list) are: -2 Manamorphose, -4 lands, -1 Summoner's Pact, -1 TTB, +2 Noxious Revival, +4 Temple, +2 Tormenting Voices
Reasons:
-The Pact was great, but I didn't needed it that often and it felt often as a win-more, exception was the win against Amulet Bloom, where he went for Hive Mind and I killed him with double pact (his and mine).
-I never liked the Manamorphose that much, but they are a necessary evil. Since I know I can go down to 2, I searched for a replacement and I found them in Noxious Revival. They offer some great utility against Discard, Counters and can help in the Grisel combo turns (e.g. you don't draw Shoals -> get back one via Revival, use it as Ramp with Ritual, ...). Also it allows us to play better around graveyard hate, which doesn't exile everything (especially Grafdigger's Cage), since you can get back Grisel and use your breach than. I went from 1 to 2, so far I don't look back.
-The Manabase change was long overdue. The Scrylands offer another turn 1 play and help to set up you draws. I have to test more with them (and with the current Manabase configuration), if I have to change something.
-The TTB cut may look strange, but often I found myself in a position where TTB was just to slow. To compensate the cut I added another 2 draw spells (Tormenting Voices) so that I have more outs of finding a cheat spell. I play the fourth copy in the SB, so that I have against BGx the full playset again (Worldspine Wurm is so good against them). I have to test this more, since this is a pretty significant change, before I can give you my final opinion on this.
General thoughts: I think, I can cut another land (go down to 18), when I add another draw spell. The problem is, that I don't want to play another Tormenting Voice, since it can get pretty awkward with discard part (and Remand says hi). Any ideas?
Greetings,
Kathal
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What I play or have:
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
The changes (compared with my last list) are: -2 Manamorphose, -4 lands, -1 Summoner's Pact, -1 TTB, +2 Noxious Revival, +4 Temple, +2 Tormenting Voices
Reasons:
-The Pact was great, but I didn't needed it that often and it felt often as a win-more, exception was the win against Amulet Bloom, where he went for Hive Mind and I killed him with double pact (his and mine).
-I never liked the Manamorphose that much, but they are a necessary evil. Since I know I can go down to 2, I searched for a replacement and I found them in Noxious Revival. They offer some great utility against Discard, Counters and can help in the Grisel combo turns (e.g. you don't draw Shoals -> get back one via Revival, use it as Ramp with Ritual, ...). Also it allows us to play better around graveyard hate, which doesn't exile everything (especially Grafdigger's Cage), since you can get back Grisel and use your breach than. I went from 1 to 2, so far I don't look back.
-The Manabase change was long overdue. The Scrylands offer another turn 1 play and help to set up you draws. I have to test more with them (and with the current Manabase configuration), if I have to change something.
-The TTB cut may look strange, but often I found myself in a position where TTB was just to slow. To compensate the cut I added another 2 draw spells (Tormenting Voices) so that I have more outs of finding a cheat spell. I play the fourth copy in the SB, so that I have against BGx the full playset again (Worldspine Wurm is so good against them). I have to test this more, since this is a pretty significant change, before I can give you my final opinion on this.
General thoughts: I think, I can cut another land (go down to 18), when I add another draw spell. The problem is, that I don't want to play another Tormenting Voice, since it can get pretty awkward with discard part (and Remand says hi). Any ideas?
That's an interesting set of changes. I'm not sure I could go down to 18 land. I feel I lose to mana issues more than anything, even more often than my opponent having every counterspell ever (and I play in meta that's rife with Mono-U tron and Twin). I suppose the Temples offset that a little, but I also feel that tends to push us back a half turn or so. Lands that come in tapped are just so damn bad if your only hope in a match is to go off on 3 or 4 at latest before they can establish some sort of overwhelming board presence or control via counters and hand disruption.
I do like the use of Noxious Revival. I'll have to try that in my flex slots. I've been relatively happy with my 1-of Dragonlord Atarka, as it's a perfect pitch to Shoal, and still works with both Breach and Goryo's. I also remain a big fan of a singleton Lightning Axe, both as interaction and as a way to combo off completely at instant speed.
As far as other card draw, there's not a lot of good options without changing up your mana base. Wild Guess has the same drawback as Tormenting Voice and is harder on mana. Sign in Blood and Read the Bones work as actual card advantage like Night's Whisper, but are harder to cast if you're trying to skate on land drops. And not being dredge, this deck doesn't want Dangerous Wager, Desperate Ravings, Goblin Lore, or the like. All the other good options want U to cast, and that way lies the Grixis version of the deck.
Hi,
I have been playing other decks for a while, but now I have returned to Modern Reanimator. I have always played grixis but I am starting to like the shoal versions I will eventually switch to it.
I have to disagree with what is written in the primer. It is stated that the grixis version has many free slots, and I feel that in the deck there are between 4 and 6 free slots, which are not too many. I have used these slots for 2x snapcaster and 2x taigam's scheming and also keeping the full 4 of pentad prisms and spirit guides.
I also feel that sideboarding is difficult for this same reason. Taking out parts of the combo to fight specific decks is hard.
The changes (compared with my last list) are: -2 Manamorphose, -4 lands, -1 Summoner's Pact, -1 TTB, +2 Noxious Revival, +4 Temple, +2 Tormenting Voices
Reasons:
-The Pact was great, but I didn't needed it that often and it felt often as a win-more, exception was the win against Amulet Bloom, where he went for Hive Mind and I killed him with double pact (his and mine).
-I never liked the Manamorphose that much, but they are a necessary evil. Since I know I can go down to 2, I searched for a replacement and I found them in Noxious Revival. They offer some great utility against Discard, Counters and can help in the Grisel combo turns (e.g. you don't draw Shoals -> get back one via Revival, use it as Ramp with Ritual, ...). Also it allows us to play better around graveyard hate, which doesn't exile everything (especially Grafdigger's Cage), since you can get back Grisel and use your breach than. I went from 1 to 2, so far I don't look back.
-The Manabase change was long overdue. The Scrylands offer another turn 1 play and help to set up you draws. I have to test more with them (and with the current Manabase configuration), if I have to change something.
-The TTB cut may look strange, but often I found myself in a position where TTB was just to slow. To compensate the cut I added another 2 draw spells (Tormenting Voices) so that I have more outs of finding a cheat spell. I play the fourth copy in the SB, so that I have against BGx the full playset again (Worldspine Wurm is so good against them). I have to test this more, since this is a pretty significant change, before I can give you my final opinion on this.
General thoughts: I think, I can cut another land (go down to 18), when I add another draw spell. The problem is, that I don't want to play another Tormenting Voice, since it can get pretty awkward with discard part (and Remand says hi). Any ideas?
That's an interesting set of changes. I'm not sure I could go down to 18 land. I feel I lose to mana issues more than anything, even more often than my opponent having every counterspell ever (and I play in meta that's rife with Mono-U tron and Twin). I suppose the Temples offset that a little, but I also feel that tends to push us back a half turn or so. Lands that come in tapped are just so damn bad if your only hope in a match is to go off on 3 or 4 at latest before they can establish some sort of overwhelming board presence or control via counters and hand disruption.
I do like the use of Noxious Revival. I'll have to try that in my flex slots. I've been relatively happy with my 1-of Dragonlord Atarka, as it's a perfect pitch to Shoal, and still works with both Breach and Goryo's. I also remain a big fan of a singleton Lightning Axe, both as interaction and as a way to combo off completely at instant speed.
As far as other card draw, there's not a lot of good options without changing up your mana base. Wild Guess has the same drawback as Tormenting Voice and is harder on mana. Sign in Blood and Read the Bones work as actual card advantage like Night's Whisper, but are harder to cast if you're trying to skate on land drops. And not being dredge, this deck doesn't want Dangerous Wager, Desperate Ravings, Goblin Lore, or the like. All the other good options want U to cast, and that way lies the Grixis version of the deck.
To be honest, if I slow the deck down for a half of a turn and increase the consistency without losing anything else, I'm fine with it.
I have to test the Dragonlord more, but in my initial testing I didn't like her at all. And yeah, it still bothers me that B/R has no good carddraw. Maybe I could move to U to get better one, the problem is with the G count (and the manabase).
Hi,
I have been playing other decks for a while, but now I have returned to Modern Reanimator. I have always played grixis but I am starting to like the shoal versions I will eventually switch to it.
This is my current list:
~deck~
I have to disagree with what is written in the primer. It is stated that the grixis version has many free slots, and I feel that in the deck there are between 4 and 6 free slots, which are not too many. I have used these slots for 2x snapcaster and 2x taigam's scheming and also keeping the full 4 of pentad prisms and spirit guides.
I also feel that sideboarding is difficult for this same reason. Taking out parts of the combo to fight specific decks is hard.
In the primer I compared the different versions, there the classic Grixis version (or the BR version) has between 6-12 free slots (depending on the build), which is more than the Shoal version (which has exactly 2, or 4 where 2 of them have to be G). Overall, the classic builds have the most flex slots, since there are builds which aren't using Fury (as Caleb does, he plays Lillies instead).
Greetings,
Kathal
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What I play or have:
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
So long time lurker finally getting interested in the new shoal version. Let me start with, I love combo, but unfortunately, UR storm has been underperforming hard. My current meta at FNM consist a lot of UWR control, amulet bloom, GR tron, Burn, and some grits delver. I also play on MTGO where we all know burn runs pretty rampant. So for those of you who play the deck consistently, hopefully you can answer some questions,
1) How is the grixis delver matchup? How is the jund matchup? I feel the shoal version with abrupt decay and access to inquisition must be quite a bit stronger.
2) On cockatrice in my short time testing, it seems counters wreck me and so do paths. If I cannot win in the first few turns against control I get wrecked. How do I fix this? Whats the key to a late game with this deck? Even infect can fair well in the late game.
3) Would you keep a hand of 2 faithless looting, 1 nights torment, 1 goryo, 3 lands?
Thanks, looking forward to some testing coming up!
1) How is the grixis delver matchup? How is the jund matchup? I feel the shoal version with abrupt decay and access to inquisition must be quite a bit stronger.
Delver in any form is a mediocre to bad matchup, depending on how heavy they are on counters and if they can get an early delver flipped. If they devote the early game to aggro and don't leave up counters, you're generally faster than they are. If they don't have early pressure, they generally don't have enough counters to outlast your attempts. But if they can drop a T1 Delver and flip it on 2, you will often run out of time before they run out of remands, mana leaks, and spell snares.
Counters are generally the biggest weakness of any variant of this deck, and while the shoal version can fight through them given time, delver doesn't usually give you a lot, unlike pure control or control/combo decks like UWR or Twin.
2) On cockatrice in my short time testing, it seems counters wreck me and so do paths. If I cannot win in the first few turns against control I get wrecked. How do I fix this? Whats the key to a late game with this deck? Even infect can fair well in the late game.
Counters are hard, as mentioned, to fight through. For shoal, this usually means surviving long enough to be able to play a Breach or Shoal (preferably spliced) at their end step to draw out the counter, then untapping and doing it again. The other option is to go off in response to them finally tapping out to do something. Eventually they're going to need to put pressure on the table, and the shoal version's ability to go off at mostly instant speed (or completely instant if you're running a Lightning Axe or other instant speed discard outlet like Funeral Charm, Kolaghan's Command, or similar) can shine here. Oh, you want to put your Keranos in play? Okay, here we go.
Paths (and other hard removal like terminate) are much easier to play around, especially for the shoal version. You can actually win with a Path on the stack, if all goes well. The key thing for dealing with removal is that if you think they have it, attack first.
You want to force them to have to use the removal and then be able to react to it by drawing 7, rather than have them react to the draw with removal. If they can react to you, that's 7 cards you don't have in hand before the removal resolves, which may have been the ones you needed to continue the combo chain. And depending on how deep you dig before you fizzle, you may prevent yourself from going off in the future.
For non-shoal versions, the usual answer is just to give up on that attempt and draw enough to ensure you'll be able to go off with an Emrakul, since that's immune to most removal.
3) Would you keep a hand of 2 faithless looting, 1 nights torment, 1 goryo, 3 lands?
I would. You've got at least 5 looks for Griselbrand (1 or 2 draws, 4 cards from 2 Faithless) by the end of turn 2, and can untap on 3 and get 3 more (draw + 2 from whisper), letting you flash back faithless on turn 4 to ditch a reanimation target if you find one. If the Goryo's were anything else, I would probably not keep, though. Unless it were a Breach, and one of the three draw/filter spells was instead an SSG. If your opening 7 doesn't have at least one actual combo piece, I'd be really hard pressed to keep, unless literally everything else in hand was a dig spell plus 2 or 3 lands.
So long time lurker finally getting interested in the new shoal version. Let me start with, I love combo, but unfortunately, UR storm has been underperforming hard. My current meta at FNM consist a lot of UWR control, amulet bloom, GR tron, Burn, and some grits delver. I also play on MTGO where we all know burn runs pretty rampant. So for those of you who play the deck consistently, hopefully you can answer some questions,
1) How is the grixis delver matchup? How is the jund matchup? I feel the shoal version with abrupt decay and access to inquisition must be quite a bit stronger.
2) On cockatrice in my short time testing, it seems counters wreck me and so do paths. If I cannot win in the first few turns against control I get wrecked. How do I fix this? Whats the key to a late game with this deck? Even infect can fair well in the late game.
3) Would you keep a hand of 2 faithless looting, 1 nights torment, 1 goryo, 3 lands?
Thanks, looking forward to some testing coming up!
DaR already gave a pretty good explanation about several things. I just want to add some things:
1) Grixis Delver: There is a single question in this match-up, has he the turn 1 Delver or not. Everything but the turn 1 Delver with a flip on turn 2 is to slow (even a turn 2 Tasigur or Pyro). A few weeks ago I could play around 20 pre board games against Grixis Delver (as I posted earlier), and went 14-6, the loses were only because of the turn 1 Delver into flip. In every other game I could easily grind through his counters. Also, it helps if you know how Grixis Delver works and how much damage the deck can represent.
2) Jund: Jund is quite a decent match-up (better than 55-45 in my experience), since a breached Worldspine Wurm is gg. Also, since they decreased the number of Thoughtseize for IoK (thanks Burn) they have only 3 Discard spells between MD/SB which can target Breach. Also, Blood Moon is great against them (if you want to play them).
3) If you have massive problems with counters (again, experience helps here a ton, so it shouldn't be that big of a problem) you can still run Boseijus/Pact of Negation in the SB. Note, if you are running Temples, you never want to have more than 4 tap lands in your deck, so if you have the playset Temples and want to bring in 2 Bosejius, board 2 Temples out (otherwise you will be to slow, when you draw to many taplands).
Greetings,
Kathal
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What I play or have:
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
Thanks so much guys! You all have been such a big help, and glad to here after some good practice I will be able to get my matchup in my favor. I can definitely tell that experience with the deck helps haha. A few more questions if you all don't mind,
1) What is a general side boarding strategy against Grixis delver and control? I honestly never know what to take out. I never want to take out threats, lands, or faithless looting. Can manamorphose go? I play the noxious revival as a 2 of, i assume they can go. What about desperate rituals. I am just confused what cards I can usually take out and what cards are too core to the deck to be taken out (number of griselbrands for example seems huge).
Against Grixis Delver it depends on your list. If you are playing the stock list (4 Manamorphose, 2 Desperate Rituals, 2 Borbor, random G spell (G-Pact/Time of Need/Explore/...)) you can cut up to 3 Manamorphose (although cutting the third one is pretty greedy), 1 Night's Whisper (Tormenting Voice if you are running it) and 1 SSG. What you want depends, I like 2 IoK/Pact of Negation and the 1 Bosejiu (remember to cut a land if you add Bosejiu).
Delver usually doesn't run any discard (neither MD nor SB), just more cheap counters (Dispel, Countersquall/Negate, Flashfreeze, Spell Pierce,...) so don't bring in the Leylines/Decays.
Against the Control versions it gets difficult. When you see a lot of Discard pre board you want to have the Leylines, if you don't see anything preboard, than you can go with the same SB plan as against the Delver deck (remember, Control usually has Discard in the SB, but you don't want to board in Leylines for 4 SB Discard spells, if they aren't running it MD).
Overall, both decks don't have "good" graveyard hate (no RiP/Ooze in those colours) but they can play Grafdigger's Cage. If they play Cage and it goes to game 3, you can bring some numbers of Decay in or more discard (hit it before it can land).
In general, depending against what deck we are playing, these are the possible boarding cards (depends on the versions and especially how YOUR list looks like):
0-3 Manamorphose (worst card in the deck but you need it and never board out the full playset, since you might need one if you have to go off on turn 2 (to get B mana for Goryo's a Borbor))
0-3 SSG/Desperate Ritual (when we have more than enough time (like against U/UW Tron))
0-2 Night's Whisper (against fast aggro decks (like 1-drop Zoo, Affinity))
0-2 Tormenting Voice (against Remand heavy decks or when you are playing against hyper aggro decks)
0-1 TTB (often to slow against Infect/Affinity or bad against Twin (especially with Worldspine Wurm, but you can play around it by playing it in your opp second mainphase, so that you get the 3 5/5 tokens and he likely can't tap down all 3 of them, still you could argue for cutting one)
0-1 Goryo's Vengeance (against Surgicals and heavy graveyard hate, when you aren't running Discard, but it is a corner case)
0-1 Worldspine Wurm (against slow decks with Paths, since TTB Wurm is not good there)
0-1 Shoal (often in combination with a Wurm, when I need more slots for SB cards)
0-1 Land (when you have Bosejiu in your board/when you mull every hand which doesn't represent a turn 3 kill (infect says hi))
0-X random G spells (depending on what you have here, like Summoner's Pact, Time for Need, Noxious Revival, Explore,...)
Depending what the opp is playing you can board a ton of cards out (my max was 10), but it will start to dilute the deck so much that you can hardly combo off (or be able to find the combo in the first place).
Greetings,
Kathal
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What I play or have:
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
Kathal, thanks for all the help! Its pretty fascinating the lines of play with the deck, but I think I am still getting used to what hands to mulligan. It's definitely more inconsistent then UR storm, but that may be to my inexperience. I just feel like unless its Griselbrand, I'm not winning. Worldspine TTB whens sometimes, but unless I'm combing the Borgborymos is just so bad.
Do you by chance know how the fury of the horde deck gets through so many paths? Why would the fury of the horde version also play some number of combo cards like shoal? The only one getting pitched is wurm, and I am sure you can make it work. You lose abrupt decay which may hurt in twin matchup, but you get blue and can always echoing truth, etc.
TTB Worldspine Wurm wins me around 40% of my games which I won (Grisel the rest). Worlspine Wurm is awesome against many decks, but you have to know, against which deck and especially when you should "cast" it.
And yeah, Groyo's is more inconsistent than storm, because we can't play around 16-20 Cantrips as Storm does, but we have the faster combo and we are more immune to stuff storm hoses (like Eidolon, Rule of Law, RiP (we still have TTB, where Storm needs to find a bounce spell)).
And just that you know, I saw some Shoal version without G (so only Shoal, Borbor, Wurm and Manamorphose were the G spells), so that he can support Blood Moon better in the SB (Turn 2 Blood Moon otp against BGx is game).
Regarding the Classic approach (so with Grisel+Emmi), their out against Path is Emrakul, as simple as it is. When they cheat in Griselbrand, swing with him and then he gets pathed, they still can draw at least 7 cards (depending on the board state), which has a high chance of finding Emrakul+Combo piece (or enough draw to get there next turn). The thing with the classic take is, the best card in their deck isn't Griselbrand but Emmi, cause Emmi just wins you the game because of his annihilation.
The down side is, that their twin match-up is a horror. They can't play around counterspells (at least not that good as the Shoal version can), and getting an Emmi tapped down really hurts (with Griselbrand you can still draw a ton of cards). That's why you will see Defense Grids, Torpor Orb and other Twin hosers in their SBs.
The thing is, you can't just smash both the Shoal and the classic version together. The classic version can play Emrakul, probably the best creature for this whole archetype (I mean, destroying the whole opponents board is just op) and the Shoal version needs Worldspine Wurm, because of the G count for Shoal. You can't play both (you simply have not enough slots in the deck). Earlier in the thread somebody suggested to run some numbers of Fury of the Hordes in the Shoal version, but I don't know his results with this list.
Greetings,
Kathal
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What I play or have:
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
thought you all might like to see this, http://www.twitch.tv/oarsman79/v/6038409. This is a link to Joe Lossett playing his UPDATED list of fury of the horde reanimator. Few changes to the list, I really like Not of This World. Card seems great for that list to counter the path problem, but not sure if its better than Pact of Negation. Either way, he has some good games, and his rate of play and lines are just so different than what I imagined. Worth a watch!
thought you all might like to see this, http://www.twitch.tv/oarsman79/v/6038409. This is a link to Joe Lossett playing his UPDATED list of fury of the horde reanimator. Few changes to the list, I really like Not of This World. Card seems great for that list to counter the path problem, but not sure if its better than Pact of Negation. Either way, he has some good games, and his rate of play and lines are just so different than what I imagined. Worth a watch!
Unfortuantely Joe plays this deck horribly, due to inexperience with it. Even watching him in that first match he plays, he could have done many different lines. Against zoo, you have to race, you cannot waste izzet charm to save 3 damage, zoo will beat you. I would not take advice from the video Joe is an amazing player, but he hasn't mastered when he should dig for his combo, what lands to play, what to discard to looting, etc.
I recently placed Top 4 in a 44 person Modern event at my local LGS.
2-0 Bloom
2-0 Junk
1-2 Merfolk
2-1 Twin
2-0 4-color Control
draw into T8
Top8: 2-0 American Control
My personal notes:
Noxious revival is one of the best cards in this deck. go for the combo on turn 2 at the end of their turn to draw out the snare, then noxious it to the top, draw, win. the best version for this deck is to go heavy handed on the 'free' counters like pact and backups for your win cards with noxious. it is absurdly good.
Noxious is fury 2-7. I played this at GP richmond last year (BR version) and went 6-3, and lost one of my games (and matches) due to drawing 28 cards and only seeing 1 fury of the horde. this way you are nearly guaranteed to see "both" with noxious.
Yeah, I came to the same conclusion after I watched him, he has just no experience with such decks (or with combo decks in general).
I like your list (especially that you adapted Noxious Revival too). Revival may even be stronger in the classic versions than in the Shoal version (since you have a limited number of big things). How do you like the Twin match-up (it's been a while since I played with the classic version against Twin)?
Greetings,
Kathal
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
What I play or have:
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
thought you all might like to see this, http://www.twitch.tv/oarsman79/v/6038409. This is a link to Joe Lossett playing his UPDATED list of fury of the horde reanimator. Few changes to the list, I really like Not of This World. Card seems great for that list to counter the path problem, but not sure if its better than Pact of Negation. Either way, he has some good games, and his rate of play and lines are just so different than what I imagined. Worth a watch!
Unfortuantely Joe plays this deck horribly, due to inexperience with it. Even watching him in that first match he plays, he could have done many different lines. Against zoo, you have to race, you cannot waste izzet charm to save 3 damage, zoo will beat you. I would not take advice from the video Joe is an amazing player, but he hasn't mastered when he should dig for his combo, what lands to play, what to discard to looting, etc.
I recently placed Top 4 in a 44 person Modern event at my local LGS.
2-0 Bloom
2-0 Junk
1-2 Merfolk
2-1 Twin
2-0 4-color Control
draw into T8
Top8: 2-0 American Control
My personal notes:
Noxious revival is one of the best cards in this deck. go for the combo on turn 2 at the end of their turn to draw out the snare, then noxious it to the top, draw, win. the best version for this deck is to go heavy handed on the 'free' counters like pact and backups for your win cards with noxious. it is absurdly good.
Noxious is fury 2-7. I played this at GP richmond last year (BR version) and went 6-3, and lost one of my games (and matches) due to drawing 28 cards and only seeing 1 fury of the horde. this way you are nearly guaranteed to see "both" with noxious.
Hi,
I tried the revival and rally liked it. Now I am testing with snapcaster mage, which works in a similar way, but costing 2 mana and having a body. It sometimes comes in handy, specially when opponents are still alive after an Emrakul swing or just for chumpblocking.
When do you bring your lilianas in?
I tried the revival and rally liked it. Now I am testing with snapcaster mage, which works in a similar way, but costing 2 mana and having a body. It sometimes comes in handy, specially when opponents are still alive after an Emrakul swing or just for chumpblocking.
When do you bring your lilianas in?
Lili is for junk/jund, when i also bring in leylines. its to kill off their goyf/bobs, providing a discard outlet, and protecting vs getting beaten down by scoozes.
Yeah, I came to the same conclusion after I watched him, he has just no experience with such decks (or with combo decks in general).
I like your list (especially that you adapted Noxious Revival too). Revival may even be stronger in the classic versions than in the Shoal version (since you have a limited number of big things). How do you like the Twin match-up (it's been a while since I played with the classic version against Twin)?
Greetings,
Kathal
Twin is TERRIBLE game 1...they just remand, remand, combo, win. Game 2 i bring in all 4 pacts and 2 spellskite, taking out 2 prism, 1 breach, 1-2 of the looters to force the issue of casting 2 combo pieces in 1 turn with pact backup. I know they will have a combo piece or disruption (counter) for me, so end of turn goryos, knowing it will get countered, then noxious it back to cast again with pact backup to win on that same turn is my usual jam. its about 50/50 post-board as they dont have a ton to bring in vs us except more counter, but by that point im holding 1-2 pact and 1-2 goryos. I will prefer using griselbrand over emrakul when given the option, as getting the last 3 points of damage in will be hard (they will have fetched twice by this point).
Noxious is literally my favorite card in this deck, and 2-of seems the right # of....the terror in peoples eyes when they see what happens after they counter your combo wombo makes them cry.
twin is my other modern deck, so i have a familiarity with how the deck should pilot, and the entire goal should be to combo off before they can, and usually catching them offguard when they think you shouldn't be able to combo... especially useful to have extra simians to pay for things like izzet charm with 1 mana open.
We're faster than amulet, we're fast enough for affinity unless they god-draw, and even then, it makes a turn 2 emrakul even sweeter.... burn is bad G1, g2 is a joke with leyline. Jund can hurt when they thoughtsieze/iok but beatable with leylines. twin is hard, american control isnt so bad, just fight through counters. infect can be rough if they god-draw. Tron is also miserable as they can hold o-stone up...just have to get online before they can karn you/your hand. i dont have a good plan vs tron atm.
Without the manamorphose, you don't have the option to turn your red mana into black. That shuts off any lines that require reanimating Borbor from the bin, and locks you in to having a the Borbor and a Breach in hand *and* being able to get up to at least 4 mana to splice the Breach onto a Shoal or getting to 5 mana to cast in naturally. Both are possible, but discard into Goryo's path usually has a lot less requirements. This means you may need to delay going off for a turn (to have an extra black producing land untapped) or fizzling (because you can't get the complete Breach version combo in hand before you run out of life/shoals).
Going to a 2/2 split of Manamorphose and Decay would be about as low as I'd be willing to go.
Some of my decks:
Oath Walker Devo - Modern
Stompy - Modern
Battle of Wits - Modern
Teysa's Sac Circus - EDH
Rob's 450 Unpowered - Cube
The huge problem with filterlands is, that you have to mulligan nearly every hand which contains no other land than the filter land. Also, comboing of on turn 1 is cute, but you don't need it, since those draws allows you to kill the opponent on turn 2, which is more than enough. If the opponent has a removal (e.g. Path) it is fine, since you still can draw 7-14 cards and make the same play next turn but with Emrakul. Furthermore, it makes the SB Blood Moons even worse, since you have to cut some number of basics to fit them in (and you can't afford to cut your swamps/fetches, since you need B). Conclusion: I wouldn't trade the possibility of Turn 1 kills for the decrease in the consistency of the manabase.
Amulet Bloom is a race, but beside it's nut draw (turn 2 Hive Mind kill otp) we are faster, by around 1 turn. Also, sometimes you can combo off with the pact trigger on the stack (I did this already several times), but I would advise against playing TTB against Hive Mind (can result to awkward moments, when he gets Titan into play and you wanted to kill him with Wurm).
Just checked it, he went 4-4 in modern. There are some things I like about his deck (like Pull+Powder) and some stuff I hate (like Pull+Powder, I know, it may sound strange, but I hate and like them). I understand what he wanted to achieve with this deck (the fastest and consistent kill in Modern), but I think the Shoal version is better suited for this. I think, that an all-in version (like this) can compete, but it will always lack something. I would have gone for the full all-in build (another powder, SSG, Tormenting Voices, kick a TTB (to "slow") and the Leylines), and have the "hate" cards in the SB. Also I miss the Pact of Negation here, when he goes that hard on the all-in route.
But overall I dunno how good this version can be.
You need at least 2 Manamorphose to be able to filter the R mana into B (or G when you need to cast Decay, or whatever when you have to pay for a Hive Mind Pact). The other two are kinda flex slots, but you should play something G in there. ATM I run 2 Noxious Revival in the 3-4 Manamorphose slot, since they are great at grinding through Countermagic and Discard. Also they can be used in the Combo turn (when you need another Shoal but you didn't draw one, or as ramp with Desperate Ritual).
@All, this is my current list:
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Blood Crypt
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Stomping Ground
1 Blackcleave Cliffs
4 Temple of Malice
2 Swamp
1 Mountain
1 Forest
//Creatures
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Griselbrand
4 Worldspine Wurm
2 Borborygmos Enraged
2 Noxious Revival
4 Faithless Looting
2 Desperate Ritual
4 Goryo's Vengeance
4 Night's Whisper
2 Tormenting Voice
4 Nourishing Shoal
2 Manamorphose
3 Through the Breach
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
2 Pact of Negation
1 Duress
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Through the Breach
2 flex spots
I have to test the manabase more, but so far I like it. I'm thinking of kicking the Forest for another Blackcleave Cliffs, since it can get pretty awkward with the opening 7 (and I don't need it that often, even post board).
The changes (compared with my last list) are: -2 Manamorphose, -4 lands, -1 Summoner's Pact, -1 TTB, +2 Noxious Revival, +4 Temple, +2 Tormenting Voices
Reasons:
-The Pact was great, but I didn't needed it that often and it felt often as a win-more, exception was the win against Amulet Bloom, where he went for Hive Mind and I killed him with double pact (his and mine).
-I never liked the Manamorphose that much, but they are a necessary evil. Since I know I can go down to 2, I searched for a replacement and I found them in Noxious Revival. They offer some great utility against Discard, Counters and can help in the Grisel combo turns (e.g. you don't draw Shoals -> get back one via Revival, use it as Ramp with Ritual, ...). Also it allows us to play better around graveyard hate, which doesn't exile everything (especially Grafdigger's Cage), since you can get back Grisel and use your breach than. I went from 1 to 2, so far I don't look back.
-The Manabase change was long overdue. The Scrylands offer another turn 1 play and help to set up you draws. I have to test more with them (and with the current Manabase configuration), if I have to change something.
-The TTB cut may look strange, but often I found myself in a position where TTB was just to slow. To compensate the cut I added another 2 draw spells (Tormenting Voices) so that I have more outs of finding a cheat spell. I play the fourth copy in the SB, so that I have against BGx the full playset again (Worldspine Wurm is so good against them). I have to test this more, since this is a pretty significant change, before I can give you my final opinion on this.
General thoughts: I think, I can cut another land (go down to 18), when I add another draw spell. The problem is, that I don't want to play another Tormenting Voice, since it can get pretty awkward with discard part (and Remand says hi). Any ideas?
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
That's an interesting set of changes. I'm not sure I could go down to 18 land. I feel I lose to mana issues more than anything, even more often than my opponent having every counterspell ever (and I play in meta that's rife with Mono-U tron and Twin). I suppose the Temples offset that a little, but I also feel that tends to push us back a half turn or so. Lands that come in tapped are just so damn bad if your only hope in a match is to go off on 3 or 4 at latest before they can establish some sort of overwhelming board presence or control via counters and hand disruption.
I do like the use of Noxious Revival. I'll have to try that in my flex slots. I've been relatively happy with my 1-of Dragonlord Atarka, as it's a perfect pitch to Shoal, and still works with both Breach and Goryo's. I also remain a big fan of a singleton Lightning Axe, both as interaction and as a way to combo off completely at instant speed.
As far as other card draw, there's not a lot of good options without changing up your mana base. Wild Guess has the same drawback as Tormenting Voice and is harder on mana. Sign in Blood and Read the Bones work as actual card advantage like Night's Whisper, but are harder to cast if you're trying to skate on land drops. And not being dredge, this deck doesn't want Dangerous Wager, Desperate Ravings, Goblin Lore, or the like. All the other good options want U to cast, and that way lies the Grixis version of the deck.
I have been playing other decks for a while, but now I have returned to Modern Reanimator. I have always played grixis but I am starting to like the shoal versions I will eventually switch to it.
This is my current list:
4x Emrakul, the aeons torn
4x Simian spirit guide
2x Snapcaster mage
4x Faithless looting
4x Izzet charm
2x Taigam's scheming
4x Goryo's vengeance
4x Through the breach
4x Pentad prism
4x Fury of the horde
4x Polluted delta
4x Bloodstained mire
3x Blackcleave cliffs
1x Watery grave
1x Steam vents
1x Blood crypt
1x Temple of deceit
1x Temple of malice
1x Island
1x Swamp
1x Creeping tar pit
1x Desolate lighthouse
3x Pact of negation
2x Volcanic fallout
2x Boseiju, who shelters all
4x (Pack rat / 3x Liliana of the veil + additional volcanic fallout/ 4x Thoughtseize) Not sure by now.
I have to disagree with what is written in the primer. It is stated that the grixis version has many free slots, and I feel that in the deck there are between 4 and 6 free slots, which are not too many. I have used these slots for 2x snapcaster and 2x taigam's scheming and also keeping the full 4 of pentad prisms and spirit guides.
I also feel that sideboarding is difficult for this same reason. Taking out parts of the combo to fight specific decks is hard.
To be honest, if I slow the deck down for a half of a turn and increase the consistency without losing anything else, I'm fine with it.
I have to test the Dragonlord more, but in my initial testing I didn't like her at all. And yeah, it still bothers me that B/R has no good carddraw. Maybe I could move to U to get better one, the problem is with the G count (and the manabase).
In the primer I compared the different versions, there the classic Grixis version (or the BR version) has between 6-12 free slots (depending on the build), which is more than the Shoal version (which has exactly 2, or 4 where 2 of them have to be G). Overall, the classic builds have the most flex slots, since there are builds which aren't using Fury (as Caleb does, he plays Lillies instead).
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
So long time lurker finally getting interested in the new shoal version. Let me start with, I love combo, but unfortunately, UR storm has been underperforming hard. My current meta at FNM consist a lot of UWR control, amulet bloom, GR tron, Burn, and some grits delver. I also play on MTGO where we all know burn runs pretty rampant. So for those of you who play the deck consistently, hopefully you can answer some questions,
1) How is the grixis delver matchup? How is the jund matchup? I feel the shoal version with abrupt decay and access to inquisition must be quite a bit stronger.
2) On cockatrice in my short time testing, it seems counters wreck me and so do paths. If I cannot win in the first few turns against control I get wrecked. How do I fix this? Whats the key to a late game with this deck? Even infect can fair well in the late game.
3) Would you keep a hand of 2 faithless looting, 1 nights torment, 1 goryo, 3 lands?
Thanks, looking forward to some testing coming up!
Delver in any form is a mediocre to bad matchup, depending on how heavy they are on counters and if they can get an early delver flipped. If they devote the early game to aggro and don't leave up counters, you're generally faster than they are. If they don't have early pressure, they generally don't have enough counters to outlast your attempts. But if they can drop a T1 Delver and flip it on 2, you will often run out of time before they run out of remands, mana leaks, and spell snares.
Counters are generally the biggest weakness of any variant of this deck, and while the shoal version can fight through them given time, delver doesn't usually give you a lot, unlike pure control or control/combo decks like UWR or Twin.
Counters are hard, as mentioned, to fight through. For shoal, this usually means surviving long enough to be able to play a Breach or Shoal (preferably spliced) at their end step to draw out the counter, then untapping and doing it again. The other option is to go off in response to them finally tapping out to do something. Eventually they're going to need to put pressure on the table, and the shoal version's ability to go off at mostly instant speed (or completely instant if you're running a Lightning Axe or other instant speed discard outlet like Funeral Charm, Kolaghan's Command, or similar) can shine here. Oh, you want to put your Keranos in play? Okay, here we go.
Paths (and other hard removal like terminate) are much easier to play around, especially for the shoal version. You can actually win with a Path on the stack, if all goes well. The key thing for dealing with removal is that if you think they have it, attack first.
You want to force them to have to use the removal and then be able to react to it by drawing 7, rather than have them react to the draw with removal. If they can react to you, that's 7 cards you don't have in hand before the removal resolves, which may have been the ones you needed to continue the combo chain. And depending on how deep you dig before you fizzle, you may prevent yourself from going off in the future.
For non-shoal versions, the usual answer is just to give up on that attempt and draw enough to ensure you'll be able to go off with an Emrakul, since that's immune to most removal.
I would. You've got at least 5 looks for Griselbrand (1 or 2 draws, 4 cards from 2 Faithless) by the end of turn 2, and can untap on 3 and get 3 more (draw + 2 from whisper), letting you flash back faithless on turn 4 to ditch a reanimation target if you find one. If the Goryo's were anything else, I would probably not keep, though. Unless it were a Breach, and one of the three draw/filter spells was instead an SSG. If your opening 7 doesn't have at least one actual combo piece, I'd be really hard pressed to keep, unless literally everything else in hand was a dig spell plus 2 or 3 lands.
DaR already gave a pretty good explanation about several things. I just want to add some things:
1) Grixis Delver: There is a single question in this match-up, has he the turn 1 Delver or not. Everything but the turn 1 Delver with a flip on turn 2 is to slow (even a turn 2 Tasigur or Pyro). A few weeks ago I could play around 20 pre board games against Grixis Delver (as I posted earlier), and went 14-6, the loses were only because of the turn 1 Delver into flip. In every other game I could easily grind through his counters. Also, it helps if you know how Grixis Delver works and how much damage the deck can represent.
2) Jund: Jund is quite a decent match-up (better than 55-45 in my experience), since a breached Worldspine Wurm is gg. Also, since they decreased the number of Thoughtseize for IoK (thanks Burn) they have only 3 Discard spells between MD/SB which can target Breach. Also, Blood Moon is great against them (if you want to play them).
3) If you have massive problems with counters (again, experience helps here a ton, so it shouldn't be that big of a problem) you can still run Boseijus/Pact of Negation in the SB. Note, if you are running Temples, you never want to have more than 4 tap lands in your deck, so if you have the playset Temples and want to bring in 2 Bosejius, board 2 Temples out (otherwise you will be to slow, when you draw to many taplands).
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
1) What is a general side boarding strategy against Grixis delver and control? I honestly never know what to take out. I never want to take out threats, lands, or faithless looting. Can manamorphose go? I play the noxious revival as a 2 of, i assume they can go. What about desperate rituals. I am just confused what cards I can usually take out and what cards are too core to the deck to be taken out (number of griselbrands for example seems huge).
Delver usually doesn't run any discard (neither MD nor SB), just more cheap counters (Dispel, Countersquall/Negate, Flashfreeze, Spell Pierce,...) so don't bring in the Leylines/Decays.
Against the Control versions it gets difficult. When you see a lot of Discard pre board you want to have the Leylines, if you don't see anything preboard, than you can go with the same SB plan as against the Delver deck (remember, Control usually has Discard in the SB, but you don't want to board in Leylines for 4 SB Discard spells, if they aren't running it MD).
Overall, both decks don't have "good" graveyard hate (no RiP/Ooze in those colours) but they can play Grafdigger's Cage. If they play Cage and it goes to game 3, you can bring some numbers of Decay in or more discard (hit it before it can land).
In general, depending against what deck we are playing, these are the possible boarding cards (depends on the versions and especially how YOUR list looks like):
0-3 Manamorphose (worst card in the deck but you need it and never board out the full playset, since you might need one if you have to go off on turn 2 (to get B mana for Goryo's a Borbor))
0-3 SSG/Desperate Ritual (when we have more than enough time (like against U/UW Tron))
0-2 Night's Whisper (against fast aggro decks (like 1-drop Zoo, Affinity))
0-2 Tormenting Voice (against Remand heavy decks or when you are playing against hyper aggro decks)
0-1 TTB (often to slow against Infect/Affinity or bad against Twin (especially with Worldspine Wurm, but you can play around it by playing it in your opp second mainphase, so that you get the 3 5/5 tokens and he likely can't tap down all 3 of them, still you could argue for cutting one)
0-1 Goryo's Vengeance (against Surgicals and heavy graveyard hate, when you aren't running Discard, but it is a corner case)
0-1 Worldspine Wurm (against slow decks with Paths, since TTB Wurm is not good there)
0-1 Shoal (often in combination with a Wurm, when I need more slots for SB cards)
0-1 Land (when you have Bosejiu in your board/when you mull every hand which doesn't represent a turn 3 kill (infect says hi))
0-X random G spells (depending on what you have here, like Summoner's Pact, Time for Need, Noxious Revival, Explore,...)
Depending what the opp is playing you can board a ton of cards out (my max was 10), but it will start to dilute the deck so much that you can hardly combo off (or be able to find the combo in the first place).
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
Do you by chance know how the fury of the horde deck gets through so many paths? Why would the fury of the horde version also play some number of combo cards like shoal? The only one getting pitched is wurm, and I am sure you can make it work. You lose abrupt decay which may hurt in twin matchup, but you get blue and can always echoing truth, etc.
And yeah, Groyo's is more inconsistent than storm, because we can't play around 16-20 Cantrips as Storm does, but we have the faster combo and we are more immune to stuff storm hoses (like Eidolon, Rule of Law, RiP (we still have TTB, where Storm needs to find a bounce spell)).
And just that you know, I saw some Shoal version without G (so only Shoal, Borbor, Wurm and Manamorphose were the G spells), so that he can support Blood Moon better in the SB (Turn 2 Blood Moon otp against BGx is game).
Regarding the Classic approach (so with Grisel+Emmi), their out against Path is Emrakul, as simple as it is. When they cheat in Griselbrand, swing with him and then he gets pathed, they still can draw at least 7 cards (depending on the board state), which has a high chance of finding Emrakul+Combo piece (or enough draw to get there next turn). The thing with the classic take is, the best card in their deck isn't Griselbrand but Emmi, cause Emmi just wins you the game because of his annihilation.
The down side is, that their twin match-up is a horror. They can't play around counterspells (at least not that good as the Shoal version can), and getting an Emmi tapped down really hurts (with Griselbrand you can still draw a ton of cards). That's why you will see Defense Grids, Torpor Orb and other Twin hosers in their SBs.
The thing is, you can't just smash both the Shoal and the classic version together. The classic version can play Emrakul, probably the best creature for this whole archetype (I mean, destroying the whole opponents board is just op) and the Shoal version needs Worldspine Wurm, because of the G count for Shoal. You can't play both (you simply have not enough slots in the deck). Earlier in the thread somebody suggested to run some numbers of Fury of the Hordes in the Shoal version, but I don't know his results with this list.
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
thought you all might like to see this, http://www.twitch.tv/oarsman79/v/6038409. This is a link to Joe Lossett playing his UPDATED list of fury of the horde reanimator. Few changes to the list, I really like Not of This World. Card seems great for that list to counter the path problem, but not sure if its better than Pact of Negation. Either way, he has some good games, and his rate of play and lines are just so different than what I imagined. Worth a watch!
Unfortuantely Joe plays this deck horribly, due to inexperience with it. Even watching him in that first match he plays, he could have done many different lines. Against zoo, you have to race, you cannot waste izzet charm to save 3 damage, zoo will beat you. I would not take advice from the video Joe is an amazing player, but he hasn't mastered when he should dig for his combo, what lands to play, what to discard to looting, etc.
with that said, my current list:
4 Through the Breach
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Griselbrand
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Faithless Looting
4 Izzet Charm
4 Fury of the Horde
2 Pentad Prism
2 Serum Visions
2 Noxious Revival
2 Tormenting Voice
1 watery Grave
1 Blood Crypt
1 Steam Vents
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 scalding Tarn
3 Gemstone Mine
1 island
1 swamp
1 mountain
1 Urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
4 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Pact of Negation
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Spellskite
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Surgical Extraction
I recently placed Top 4 in a 44 person Modern event at my local LGS.
2-0 Bloom
2-0 Junk
1-2 Merfolk
2-1 Twin
2-0 4-color Control
draw into T8
Top8: 2-0 American Control
My personal notes:
Noxious revival is one of the best cards in this deck. go for the combo on turn 2 at the end of their turn to draw out the snare, then noxious it to the top, draw, win. the best version for this deck is to go heavy handed on the 'free' counters like pact and backups for your win cards with noxious. it is absurdly good.
Noxious is fury 2-7. I played this at GP richmond last year (BR version) and went 6-3, and lost one of my games (and matches) due to drawing 28 cards and only seeing 1 fury of the horde. this way you are nearly guaranteed to see "both" with noxious.
I like your list (especially that you adapted Noxious Revival too). Revival may even be stronger in the classic versions than in the Shoal version (since you have a limited number of big things). How do you like the Twin match-up (it's been a while since I played with the classic version against Twin)?
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
Hi,
I tried the revival and rally liked it. Now I am testing with snapcaster mage, which works in a similar way, but costing 2 mana and having a body. It sometimes comes in handy, specially when opponents are still alive after an Emrakul swing or just for chumpblocking.
When do you bring your lilianas in?
Lili is for junk/jund, when i also bring in leylines. its to kill off their goyf/bobs, providing a discard outlet, and protecting vs getting beaten down by scoozes.
Twin is TERRIBLE game 1...they just remand, remand, combo, win. Game 2 i bring in all 4 pacts and 2 spellskite, taking out 2 prism, 1 breach, 1-2 of the looters to force the issue of casting 2 combo pieces in 1 turn with pact backup. I know they will have a combo piece or disruption (counter) for me, so end of turn goryos, knowing it will get countered, then noxious it back to cast again with pact backup to win on that same turn is my usual jam. its about 50/50 post-board as they dont have a ton to bring in vs us except more counter, but by that point im holding 1-2 pact and 1-2 goryos. I will prefer using griselbrand over emrakul when given the option, as getting the last 3 points of damage in will be hard (they will have fetched twice by this point).
Noxious is literally my favorite card in this deck, and 2-of seems the right # of....the terror in peoples eyes when they see what happens after they counter your combo wombo makes them cry.
We're faster than amulet, we're fast enough for affinity unless they god-draw, and even then, it makes a turn 2 emrakul even sweeter.... burn is bad G1, g2 is a joke with leyline. Jund can hurt when they thoughtsieze/iok but beatable with leylines. twin is hard, american control isnt so bad, just fight through counters. infect can be rough if they god-draw. Tron is also miserable as they can hold o-stone up...just have to get online before they can karn you/your hand. i dont have a good plan vs tron atm.