I think one thing that could help, for those of you dissatisfied with current builds, is cutting the Spirit guides for more interaction. The deck kills turn 2 so infrequently that it doesn't seem worth it to bother having the capability. Reliable self defense becomes more valuable. SSG gets sided out first anyway most games anyway.
The other option would be to try to come up with a good gifts list. But many of us have tried and failed to come up with one that was better than the current configuration. The idea of a smaller combo package and more control, effectively turning it into a 1-card combo and playing almost entirely on your opponents endstep, seems appealing, but it's difficult to build a good list.
Why no Summoner's Pacts? I ran a janky Hulk combo a couple years ago and ran Summoner's Pact as Hulk 5-8. If I'd known about Footsteps back then, it'd have been a much better deck rather than just using Through the Breach. http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/protean-combo-melira/
Not sure if it's been brought up or discussed previously, but what about having a sideboard to just transform the deck into a Breach build for post-board games? Avoiding graveyard hate and hosers seems like a more sound plan than trying to fight it in theory IMO.
Finally I got some time to do some serious testing. As you guys wrote first, the biggest problem is finding Hulk. I got a plenty of games with a decent hand (Reanimatorspell+Dig) and there is no Hulk in the top 25 cards. Thats the reason I start playing Glimpse the Unthinkable. I think its a huge improvement to find Hulk. I tried it in combination with Noxious Revival and it felt ok. Did anybody consider playing Jace, Vryn's Prodigy? On paper he looks amazing, especially with Glimpse the Unthinkable. The discard effect is nice (maybe we can play Summoners Pact), he flips really fast, the -3 ability is awesome in this deck and even the +1 ability can target for the mannequin. Biggest downside is that they can use their removal, and of course he costs like $50. However I will try it out.
and of course he costs like $50. However I will try it out.
This is not a budget thread
You're point is well taken, but I think he means that he doesn't want to buy 4 of these to test them if they don't end up in the deck. I think in this case he needs to proxy the cards and test.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
Played a few games with Sleight of Hand, didn't like it. I'm only playing 2 Makeshift Mannequin but I feel we have a lot of redundancy in reanimation spells already. Most of the time I just need Hulk.
Finally I got some time to do some serious testing. As you guys wrote first, the biggest problem is finding Hulk. I got a plenty of games with a decent hand (Reanimatorspell+Dig) and there is no Hulk in the top 25 cards. Thats the reason I start playing Glimpse the Unthinkable. I think its a huge improvement to find Hulk. I tried it in combination with Noxious Revival and it felt ok. Did anybody consider playing Jace, Vryn's Prodigy? On paper he looks amazing, especially with Glimpse the Unthinkable. The discard effect is nice (maybe we can play Summoners Pact), he flips really fast, the -3 ability is awesome in this deck and even the +1 ability can target for the mannequin. Biggest downside is that they can use their removal, and of course he costs like $50. However I will try it out.
ashen rider in my list is carrying its weight. running a full set now!.
with ashen locked twin off of its red mana 2 games. and kept scapeshift off of 7 mana 1 game and locked them out of green in a second game. I would have rather combo'ed but the damn protean hulk wasn't showing up until I already had beat down via makeshift mannequin'ed ashen rider already securing me victory most games.
I dove head first into a faithless looting in the tron match both games and he had relic of projenitus wiating for me. even after mulliganing I couldn't pull anything to interact with tron.
ashen rider in my list is carrying its weight. running a full set now!.
with ashen locked twin off of its red mana 2 games. and kept scapeshift off of 7 mana 1 game and locked them out of green in a second game. I would have rather combo'ed but the damn protean hulk wasn't showing up until I already had beat down via makeshift mannequin'ed ashen rider already securing me victory most games.
I dove head first into a faithless looting in the tron match both games and he had relic of projenitus wiating for me. even after mulliganing I couldn't pull anything to interact with tron.
Have you considered Woodfall Primus instead? Because of persist it will stick around even with a footsteps. You won't be able to hit creatures with it but I think a turn 3 primus combined with blowing up 2 of your opponents land may turn into a win. 5/5 body swinging as well.
Other options that might work as well are Ætherling (on color) and obzedat, ghost council. Both will stay on the field through a footsteps or Makeshift
This feels like the direction this deck needs to move, based on my experiences with it. Darkblast gives you plenty of interaction for the linear aggro decks (it's probably the single best spell to have against both Infect and Affinity). Thoughtseize lets you interact with both combo and control decks to either stop them going off or give you a clear path to go off. Jace lets you rebuy any of those from the graveyard along with your dig spells.
I'm still not sold on Glimpse the Unthinkable, but I can see the thought process behind it, especially with Jace.
Hey guys. I'll introduce myself later, but a quick thought: what about Stinkweed Imp / Golgari Grave-Troll? If our game is to find a hulk and get it in the yard, what about going slightly dredge with it? If you're thinking about glimpse, which digs 10 deep, a troll or two will net u more combined with any of the 'draw 2' spells. Not to mention it gives a bit of a Plan B if things get Extracted. I am def on board with the addition of Darkblast somewhere in the 75, not only for the dredge, but for the fact that it is a fantastic removal spell for a lot of cards. I don't know about thoughtseize, with fetches and shock lands and how fast the format can be, I don't know if taking 2+ damage just to pitch a Hulk is great... But maybe because I'm so used to lists without discard in it that I'm biased...
ashen rider in my list is carrying its weight. running a full set now!.
with ashen locked twin off of its red mana 2 games. and kept scapeshift off of 7 mana 1 game and locked them out of green in a second game. I would have rather combo'ed but the damn protean hulk wasn't showing up until I already had beat down via makeshift mannequin'ed ashen rider already securing me victory most games.
I dove head first into a faithless looting in the tron match both games and he had relic of projenitus wiating for me. even after mulliganing I couldn't pull anything to interact with tron.
Have you considered Woodfall Primus instead? Because of persist it will stick around even with a footsteps. You won't be able to hit creatures with it but I think a turn 3 primus combined with blowing up 2 of your opponents game may turn into a win. 5/5 body swinging as well.
Other options that might work as well are Ætherling (on color) and obzedat, ghost council. Both will stay on the field through a footsteps or Makeshift
i did. Ashen rider just appealled to me since exiles everything.
You still need discard outlet to get the dredge cards into the yard.
I like the Thougthseize+Jace combo. I don't like the life loss against some decks though. If we employ Jace, we may have to tune the manabase (Darkslick Shores and stuff?)
A notable omission is Serum Visions though.. not sure if it's correct
Breaking // entering could work for milling as well instead of Glimpse the unthinkable and give another mode.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Valanarch was messing around with a list he called Breaking Bad Reanimator, which was built around cascading into Breaking // Entering. I don't think I'd go that route with this deck, because it limits what cards we can play, but it's an interesting idea.
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Well, I can saw a woman in two, but you won't wanna look in the box when I'm through.
Wonder if we can just use Merfolk looter instead of Jace. That guy is way overpriced to be viable unless someone has gold bricks in their basement somewhere. Sure we can use his flip form, but 11 cents vs 60+ usd? When we are mostly just using it for the card draw / discard? I know this isn't the budget forum, but this is one of those rare cases where it feels like more bling than necessary.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
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The other option would be to try to come up with a good gifts list. But many of us have tried and failed to come up with one that was better than the current configuration. The idea of a smaller combo package and more control, effectively turning it into a 1-card combo and playing almost entirely on your opponents endstep, seems appealing, but it's difficult to build a good list.
Which Pact doesn't do, and gives you a trigger such that if you can't pay for it you lose the game.
Which is why you run Faithless Looting and Izzet Charm and builds like mine still run Through the Breach, where you want Hulk in hand.
You're point is well taken, but I think he means that he doesn't want to buy 4 of these to test them if they don't end up in the deck. I think in this case he needs to proxy the cards and test.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Do you have a tentative list with Glimpse?
ashen rider in my list is carrying its weight. running a full set now!.
with ashen locked twin off of its red mana 2 games. and kept scapeshift off of 7 mana 1 game and locked them out of green in a second game. I would have rather combo'ed but the damn protean hulk wasn't showing up until I already had beat down via makeshift mannequin'ed ashen rider already securing me victory most games.
I dove head first into a faithless looting in the tron match both games and he had relic of projenitus wiating for me. even after mulliganing I couldn't pull anything to interact with tron.
http://www.hareruyamtg.com/jp/k/kD00902W/
Edit: the same guy went 4-1-1 the day before
Edit: List
3 Darkslick Shores
1 Forbiddin Orchard
1 Mana Confluence
1 Blood Crypt
1 Watery Grave
1 Steam Vents
1 Island
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
1 Temple of Deceit
1 Temple of Epiphany
1 Temple of Malice
4 Protean Hulk
2 Body Double
2 Reveillark
3 Viscera Seer
1 Mogg Fanatic
2 Darkblast
4 Izzet Charm
2 Makeshift Mannequin
4 Faithless Looting
4 Footsteps of the Goryo
4 Glimpse the Unthinkable
4 Thoughtseize
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Hibernation
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Pact of Negation
2 Slaughter Pact
1 Swan Song
1 Damnation
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Pithing Needle
2 Ratchet Bomb
I plan on giving this deck a spin on local game nights and adding to the literature.
Have you considered Woodfall Primus instead? Because of persist it will stick around even with a footsteps. You won't be able to hit creatures with it but I think a turn 3 primus combined with blowing up 2 of your opponents land may turn into a win. 5/5 body swinging as well.
Other options that might work as well are Ætherling (on color) and obzedat, ghost council. Both will stay on the field through a footsteps or Makeshift
This feels like the direction this deck needs to move, based on my experiences with it. Darkblast gives you plenty of interaction for the linear aggro decks (it's probably the single best spell to have against both Infect and Affinity). Thoughtseize lets you interact with both combo and control decks to either stop them going off or give you a clear path to go off. Jace lets you rebuy any of those from the graveyard along with your dig spells.
I'm still not sold on Glimpse the Unthinkable, but I can see the thought process behind it, especially with Jace.
-Yawg
i did. Ashen rider just appealled to me since exiles everything.
I'll try some woodfall primus at next tournament.
I like the Thougthseize+Jace combo. I don't like the life loss against some decks though. If we employ Jace, we may have to tune the manabase (Darkslick Shores and stuff?)
A notable omission is Serum Visions though.. not sure if it's correct
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
--
Possible Insights from our Grishoalbrand friend?
http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/50-shades-of-griselbrand/
We are a worse Jace deck as we don't have Goryo's Vengeance.
Sideboard Painful Truth against BGx looks good though.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!