could chain body double and Sidisi's Faithful to bounce anything on opponents side that might remain in the way as far as blockers goes. body double gets hulk and is expoited to go find master and torch courier.
I have a headache with your idea,Do you think the combo with torch courer and master of cruelties is better than Mog Fanatic and Reveillak?
it may not be lethal but it takes them to 1 life on turn 2/3 thats still something. shuts off all there fetch lands. a collective brutality would finish them.
don't miss my initial point though, it was asking if there are any good 5cc creatures to couple the goblin with that would be effective, if not game winning. its not like hulking into grave titan wins on the spot when you are going for a back up/alternative plan.
Thopter engineer or Grave Titan in the sideboard or both of them?
I think both of them is a lot, what do you prefer?
Why the buble hulk players prefer in the sideboard swan song than Pact of negation?? I think is because if you play Woodfall primus, is correct?
In my experience Grave Titan is better since reanimating it when there is no Hulk in the bin can just win games. It's also better in games where you need to hardcast it. Recently, I've actually forgone both in favor of Venser, Shaper Savant. It both acts as a wincon (bounce all their permanents and future spells) and as an anti-hate card (bounce Rest in Peace, Leylines, Etc.)
Swan Song is preferable in Bubble Hulk for a few reasons. Pact of Negation is really only good when you have the chance to go off and Swan Song has the potential to both give you more combo opportunities and protect the combo. For example, against white decks it can stop an early Rest in Peace or a late Path to Exile. Also, in many of the matchups where you want to bring in Swan Song, the game is going to go long enough where the cost of paying 1 mana instead of 0 is negligible. Giving your opponent a Swan usually doesn't matter either, as you are not trying to play a fair game.
The lose the game clause on Pact is truly a problem for us. The decks that can get away with playing it in Modern can either consistently combo at instant speed (Ad Nauseum) or usually have extra mana to pay (Amulet Titan). While we do have the ability to combo outside of our main phases, we are much too reliant on Footsteps of the Goryo to get around paying for Pact.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Grixis Shadow UBR Grixis Control UBR Bubble Hulk UBR
Thopter engineer or Grave Titan in the sideboard or both of them?
I think both of them is a lot, what do you prefer?
Why the buble hulk players prefer in the sideboard swan song than Pact of negation?? I think is because if you play Woodfall primus, is correct?
In my experience Grave Titan is better since reanimating it when there is no Hulk in the bin can just win games. It's also better in games where you need to hardcast it. Recently, I've actually forgone both in favor of Venser, Shaper Savant. It both acts as a wincon (bounce all their permanents and future spells) and as an anti-hate card (bounce Rest in Peace, Leylines, Etc.)
Swan Song is preferable in Bubble Hulk for a few reasons. Pact of Negation is really only good when you have the chance to go off and Swan Song has the potential to both give you more combo opportunities and protect the combo. For example, against white decks it can stop an early Rest in Peace or a late Path to Exile. Also, in many of the matchups where you want to bring in Swan Song, the game is going to go long enough where the cost of paying 1 mana instead of 0 is negligible. Giving your opponent a Swan usually doesn't matter either, as you are not trying to play a fair game.
The lose the game clause on Pact is truly a problem for us. The decks that can get away with playing it in Modern can either consistently combo at instant speed (Ad Nauseum) or usually have extra mana to pay (Amulet Titan). While we do have the ability to combo outside of our main phases, we are much too reliant on Footsteps of the Goryo to get around paying for Pact.
Thanks The Khack,your advices are great!!!, two things,the Woodfall Primus is bad in the deck?when reanimate primus,destroy two permanents,is better than Shaper Shavant who return hand the permanents.
And do you prefer pyroclasm, anger or bontu for kill creatures?
Personally, I've strayed away from Primus in order to focus on more consistent comboing. However, I still think it is quite powerful, especially if you go down the Through the Breach route instead of playing Makeshift Mannequin.
Primus and Venser are fighting on slightly different axes so they aren't really competing for the same slot. Primus is at its best in game ones, as a lot of decks have no way to answer the amount of value it creates. In post board games, having access to Venser is really useful because you don't need to cheat it into play to get its effect. If the opponent has a piece of hate, a Primus could get stranded in either the graveyard or your hand. Venser, on the other hand, can always be cast to bounce the hate and then act as a combo piece.
I haven't tested Bontu's Last Reckoning so I can't say if it's better than the other two, but I certainly prefer Anger of the Gods over Pyroclasm. The exile clause is quite relevant against Dredge, BridgeVine, and Hollow One, and the extra damage can be the difference against decks like Humans and Spirits. We also have access to Simian Spirit Guide, so the one extra mana in the cost of Anger is less of a drawback for us than it is for other decks looking for a similar effect.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Grixis Shadow UBR Grixis Control UBR Bubble Hulk UBR
Thopter engineer or Grave Titan in the sideboard or both of them?
I think both of them is a lot, what do you prefer?
Why the buble hulk players prefer in the sideboard swan song than Pact of negation?? I think is because if you play Woodfall primus, is correct?
In my experience Grave Titan is better since reanimating it when there is no Hulk in the bin can just win games. It's also better in games where you need to hardcast it. Recently, I've actually forgone both in favor of Venser, Shaper Savant. It both acts as a wincon (bounce all their permanents and future spells) and as an anti-hate card (bounce Rest in Peace, Leylines, Etc.)
Swan Song is preferable in Bubble Hulk for a few reasons. Pact of Negation is really only good when you have the chance to go off and Swan Song has the potential to both give you more combo opportunities and protect the combo. For example, against white decks it can stop an early Rest in Peace or a late Path to Exile. Also, in many of the matchups where you want to bring in Swan Song, the game is going to go long enough where the cost of paying 1 mana instead of 0 is negligible. Giving your opponent a Swan usually doesn't matter either, as you are not trying to play a fair game.
The lose the game clause on Pact is truly a problem for us. The decks that can get away with playing it in Modern can either consistently combo at instant speed (Ad Nauseum) or usually have extra mana to pay (Amulet Titan). While we do have the ability to combo outside of our main phases, we are much too reliant on Footsteps of the Goryo to get around paying for Pact.
Thanks The Khack,your advices are great!!!, two things,the Woodfall Primus is bad in the deck?when reanimate primus,destroy two permanents,is better than Shaper Shavant who return hand the permanents.
And do you prefer pyroclasm, anger or bontu for kill creatures?
Personally, I've strayed away from Primus in order to focus on more consistent comboing. However, I still think it is quite powerful, especially if you go down the Through the Breach route instead of playing Makeshift Mannequin.
Primus and Venser are fighting on slightly different axes so they aren't really competing for the same slot. Primus is at its best in game ones, as a lot of decks have no way to answer the amount of value it creates. In post board games, having access to Venser is really useful because you don't need to cheat it into play to get its effect. If the opponent has a piece of hate, a Primus could get stranded in either the graveyard or your hand. Venser, on the other hand, can always be cast to bounce the hate and then act as a combo piece.
I haven't tested Bontu's Last Reckoning so I can't say if it's better than the other two, but I certainly prefer Anger of the Gods over Pyroclasm. The exile clause is quite relevant against Dredge, BridgeVine, and Hollow One, and the extra damage can be the difference against decks like Humans and Spirits. We also have access to Simian Spirit Guide, so the one extra mana in the cost of Anger is less of a drawback for us than it is for other decks looking for a similar effect.
How many Venser do you play in the sideboard? 4 pack rat + 2 venser+ counters+ destroy creatures + pitting, the sideboard is difficult:-(
I'm on the fence between 1 and 2 Vensers. I'm also entirely off of Pack Rat. I absolutely loved Pack Rat at first and I still think it's great, I just don't think it's needed. It's too slow against much of modern, and in the matchups where it really shines (U/W, Mardu, Jund) it feels unnecessary as you are already a heavy favorite. I'd rather dedicate those 4 slots to getting an edge in worse matchups. Right now my sideboard looks like this:
After a break from Magic for like 2 years, I´m about to get into it again, and I´m thinking about starting with this deck. Combo is my thing, and this looks like a really fun deck.
I´ve thrown this together, and would like some thoughts from you guys that actually played it. Any thoughts?
You go get Body double and a seer, double makes a hulk, sac the double, get 2nd double and seer, double makes a hulk, sac the double, get reveillark and seer, sac the lark and bring two body doubles, one of which should be a lark and keep that lark in play while continuing.
Has anyone eyed the new Heartwarming Redemption? Seems interesting to me. At instant speed, it seems powerful, as so much of the discard effects in the deck are mainly sorcery speed.
An instant-speed Wheel that we can drop on an opponent's endstep like CoCo players get to do is definitely interesting.
I think the current Surgical Extraction meta still makes it hard to really pull off that big shields-down play reliably, though; but it could be that I'm just underestimating our ability to play Sorcerous Spyglass, Damping Sphere, etc.
I have been considering picking up this deck for a while now, but I have a few questions:
What does Insolate Neonate contribute to the deck?
Which version is better: R/B or Grixis?
What does the average sideboard configuration look like?
Is Lightning Axe worth running?
Is Woodfall primus worth running?
Is control a good matchup?
usually against control its a race, you can typically get there answers out of there hand with collective brutality
lightning axe is more for killing creatures that can put a fast clock on you, or stifle the graveyard in some way.
theres no right or wrong way to get it set up, so you can splash blue for grixis, but the core of the combo set up is always red and black for looting and ranimate spells. personally i feel like grixis makes me more vulnerable to blood moon as my mana base is more non-basic with blue. again this is preference its not making my turn 3 kill any more or less consistent.
I prefer woodfall primus as looting for hulk sometimes misses and his destroy effect and a 5/5 trampler gives you another path to victory.
Neonate is a good one of spell like serum visions, but loots. I do find that he helps in putting extra damage on an opponent if you have to go the beat down route with 5/5 trampler woodfall primus.
also Yawgmoth, Thran Physician could be something young wolf + Essence Warden draw whole deck. Problem with this combo is i don't think the wolf can reanimate then have the -1/-1 counter applied, sacrificing to yawgmoth might disable the abilities target with nothing to put the counter on.
Did the addition of carrion feeder add any new combos we can fetch?
Carrion Feeder is basically the same as Viscera Seer; though I suppose it can swing for lethal if you hardcast it on a previous turn rather than digging it out with Hulk.
... Yawgmoth, Thran Physician could be something young wolf + Essence Warden draw whole deck. Problem with this combo is i don't think the wolf can reanimate then have the -1/-1 counter applied, sacrificing to yawgmoth might disable the abilities target with nothing to put the counter on.
I'm pretty sure you're right about the timing issues regarding putting -1/-1 counters the very Young Wolf that you sacrifice for the effect; however, Young Wolf and Essence Warden being 1cmc creatures also makes them easy to cast in an earlier turn. Hulk-fetching Yawg+Wolf+Wolf might be perfectly fine when Warden is already in play (or something more permanent like Ajani's Welcome).
However, a different MH1 card that looks very good is Vesperlark. Being 3cmc compared to Reveillark's 5cmc (while still being able to revive Body Double) opens up a ton of new options for pulling win conditions out of the deck (Mogg and Death Cultist being the only 1cmc options that worked with Rlark for a kill loop). With 3cmc worth of cards to tutor, Zulaport Cuthroat becomes a very good target (and you can grab a backup Viscera Seer as well). Perhaps the biggest boon that Vlark has going for it is the very very attractive evoke cost of 2cmc; which is actually cheap enough to hardcast if you have the right combination of bodies in the graveyard.
Hulk Footsteps apparently has zero MTGO published results so far, though - not even in leagues or preliminaries - so we apparently have a bunch of bad match-ups somewhere.
it may not be lethal but it takes them to 1 life on turn 2/3 thats still something. shuts off all there fetch lands. a collective brutality would finish them.
don't miss my initial point though, it was asking if there are any good 5cc creatures to couple the goblin with that would be effective, if not game winning. its not like hulking into grave titan wins on the spot when you are going for a back up/alternative plan.
In my experience Grave Titan is better since reanimating it when there is no Hulk in the bin can just win games. It's also better in games where you need to hardcast it. Recently, I've actually forgone both in favor of Venser, Shaper Savant. It both acts as a wincon (bounce all their permanents and future spells) and as an anti-hate card (bounce Rest in Peace, Leylines, Etc.)
Swan Song is preferable in Bubble Hulk for a few reasons. Pact of Negation is really only good when you have the chance to go off and Swan Song has the potential to both give you more combo opportunities and protect the combo. For example, against white decks it can stop an early Rest in Peace or a late Path to Exile. Also, in many of the matchups where you want to bring in Swan Song, the game is going to go long enough where the cost of paying 1 mana instead of 0 is negligible. Giving your opponent a Swan usually doesn't matter either, as you are not trying to play a fair game.
The lose the game clause on Pact is truly a problem for us. The decks that can get away with playing it in Modern can either consistently combo at instant speed (Ad Nauseum) or usually have extra mana to pay (Amulet Titan). While we do have the ability to combo outside of our main phases, we are much too reliant on Footsteps of the Goryo to get around paying for Pact.
Personally, I've strayed away from Primus in order to focus on more consistent comboing. However, I still think it is quite powerful, especially if you go down the Through the Breach route instead of playing Makeshift Mannequin.
Primus and Venser are fighting on slightly different axes so they aren't really competing for the same slot. Primus is at its best in game ones, as a lot of decks have no way to answer the amount of value it creates. In post board games, having access to Venser is really useful because you don't need to cheat it into play to get its effect. If the opponent has a piece of hate, a Primus could get stranded in either the graveyard or your hand. Venser, on the other hand, can always be cast to bounce the hate and then act as a combo piece.
I haven't tested Bontu's Last Reckoning so I can't say if it's better than the other two, but I certainly prefer Anger of the Gods over Pyroclasm. The exile clause is quite relevant against Dredge, BridgeVine, and Hollow One, and the extra damage can be the difference against decks like Humans and Spirits. We also have access to Simian Spirit Guide, so the one extra mana in the cost of Anger is less of a drawback for us than it is for other decks looking for a similar effect.
I'm on the fence between 1 and 2 Vensers. I'm also entirely off of Pack Rat. I absolutely loved Pack Rat at first and I still think it's great, I just don't think it's needed. It's too slow against much of modern, and in the matchups where it really shines (U/W, Mardu, Jund) it feels unnecessary as you are already a heavy favorite. I'd rather dedicate those 4 slots to getting an edge in worse matchups. Right now my sideboard looks like this:
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Swan Song
2 Consign // Oblivion
2 Venser, Shaper Savant
2 Anger of the Gods
2 Collective Brutality
1 Lighting Axe
I´ve thrown this together, and would like some thoughts from you guys that actually played it. Any thoughts?
// 15 Creature
4 Protean Hulk
2 Reveillark
2 Viscera Seer
1 Mogg Fanatic
3 Simian Spirit Guide
2 Body Double
1 Insolent Neonate
// 8 Instant
3 Through the Breach
3 Izzet Charm
2 Pact of Negation
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Watery Grave
1 Blood Crypt
1 Steam Vents
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
1 Darkslick Shores
2 Spirebluff Canal
4 Footsteps of the Goryo
4 Serum Visions
4 Faithless Looting
2 Collective Brutality
4 Chart a Course
Sideboard looks like this. No idea why I can´t upload it.
15 Sideboard
// 2 Artifact
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
// 4 Creature
SB: 2 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
SB: 2 Venser, Shaper Savant
// 5 Instant
SB: 2 Swan Song
SB: 2 Echoing Truth
SB: 1 Through the Breach
// 4 Sorcery
SB: 2 Anger of the Gods
SB: 2 Duress
Shouldn't it be enough with only one as I keep priority when saccing?
BUWGRChilds PlayGRWUB
BUWGR Highlander GRWUB
UBSquee's Shapeshifting PetBU
BW Multiplayer Control WB
RG Changeling GR
UR Mana FlareRU
UMerfolkU
B MBMC B
I think the current Surgical Extraction meta still makes it hard to really pull off that big shields-down play reliably, though; but it could be that I'm just underestimating our ability to play Sorcerous Spyglass, Damping Sphere, etc.
What does Insolate Neonate contribute to the deck?
Which version is better: R/B or Grixis?
What does the average sideboard configuration look like?
Is Lightning Axe worth running?
Is Woodfall primus worth running?
Is control a good matchup?
lightning axe is more for killing creatures that can put a fast clock on you, or stifle the graveyard in some way.
theres no right or wrong way to get it set up, so you can splash blue for grixis, but the core of the combo set up is always red and black for looting and ranimate spells. personally i feel like grixis makes me more vulnerable to blood moon as my mana base is more non-basic with blue. again this is preference its not making my turn 3 kill any more or less consistent.
I prefer woodfall primus as looting for hulk sometimes misses and his destroy effect and a 5/5 trampler gives you another path to victory.
Neonate is a good one of spell like serum visions, but loots. I do find that he helps in putting extra damage on an opponent if you have to go the beat down route with 5/5 trampler woodfall primus.
I was thinking carrion feeder + geralf's messenger + Vizier of Remedies was a combo, but then realized it wasn't...
also Yawgmoth, Thran Physician could be something young wolf + Essence Warden draw whole deck. Problem with this combo is i don't think the wolf can reanimate then have the -1/-1 counter applied, sacrificing to yawgmoth might disable the abilities target with nothing to put the counter on.
I'm pretty sure you're right about the timing issues regarding putting -1/-1 counters the very Young Wolf that you sacrifice for the effect; however, Young Wolf and Essence Warden being 1cmc creatures also makes them easy to cast in an earlier turn. Hulk-fetching Yawg+Wolf+Wolf might be perfectly fine when Warden is already in play (or something more permanent like Ajani's Welcome).
However, a different MH1 card that looks very good is Vesperlark. Being 3cmc compared to Reveillark's 5cmc (while still being able to revive Body Double) opens up a ton of new options for pulling win conditions out of the deck (Mogg and Death Cultist being the only 1cmc options that worked with Rlark for a kill loop). With 3cmc worth of cards to tutor, Zulaport Cuthroat becomes a very good target (and you can grab a backup Viscera Seer as well). Perhaps the biggest boon that Vlark has going for it is the very very attractive evoke cost of 2cmc; which is actually cheap enough to hardcast if you have the right combination of bodies in the graveyard.
BUWGRChilds PlayGRWUB
BUWGR Highlander GRWUB
UBSquee's Shapeshifting PetBU
BW Multiplayer Control WB
RG Changeling GR
UR Mana FlareRU
UMerfolkU
B MBMC B
BUWGRChilds PlayGRWUB
BUWGR Highlander GRWUB
UBSquee's Shapeshifting PetBU
BW Multiplayer Control WB
RG Changeling GR
UR Mana FlareRU
UMerfolkU
B MBMC B
I think 4 Unmarked Grave is a new staple, and now we can go down to 2 Protean Hulk and give up on the discard pile in favour of sweet 1-mana blue cantrips. Profane Tutor is great at tutoring for Footsteps of the Goryo but not Unmarked Grave.
Hulk Footsteps apparently has zero MTGO published results so far, though - not even in leagues or preliminaries - so we apparently have a bunch of bad match-ups somewhere.
but it is nice to have the legacy combo finally karmic guide combo in modern finally