Tagging on the haunted dead comment. I think it'll be interesting and I will have to try it in place of my skaabs without the rainbow mana and see how I like it.
Compared to Skaab
Pros:
-Higher total stats
-Splits stats across 2 bodies (less prone to removal & better for rites+craterhoof)
-The token does not come in tapped (if needing a blocker immediately)
-Lets the mana stay in 3 colors (probably don't need rainbow manabase)
Cons:
-1 flying power vs. 3 (skaab is a better evasive beatstick)
I don't like Wager because in game 2 when we board in Grudge/lightning Axe/etc, we are going to end up discarding our sideboard spells against the hate cards that shut us down. I run Inquiry and even though it's random, you will dredge harder game 1 and hopefully have your opponent discard their hate when you cast it
I haven't tested Scour versus Inquiry, I don't know if I like the change. Running Tome Scour keeps us in blue (which means an additional shock for Steam Vents), and if you end up having two in hand and blank your first dredge they don't get very far. I would prefer Voice over Scour I think
i run Dredge for myself, tapping into BUG-Colors as i love Thought Scouring myself.
Sadly my 1-mana-Enablers are all worse than Faithless Looting.
I run 4 Dream Twist and 4 Thought Scour nowadays, but that feels wrong in many cases.
The first digs just 3 Cards, teh latter 2, which isn't enough sadly.
What's your recommendation here?
4 Tome Scour, 4 Drowned Rusalka?
I'd really be goin' mad if i must cut Scour - it's just a bunch of fun to play.
Geier Reach Sanitarium isn't good in this deck. Usually you can get one or more Faithless Looting into the graveyard once you start dredging. Those give twice as many dredges as a single Sanitarium activation for the same cost, and your opponent doesn't get in on the action.
I don't like Scourge Devils unless your meta is extremely control heavy. Rally overall I think is a better choice. Also, why do you run Flame Jab?
With 3 or less creatures, Scourge Devil deals more damage. With 5 or more creatures, Rally the Peasants deals more damage.
This is not based on the number of attacking creatures, but on the number of creatures that connect, as most opponents have blockers, removals, or both, especially on the first 'big' attack. Scourge Devil adds a creature that has to be removed or blocked: it spreads the damage, so that it will be harder to prevent for your opponent, and pushing damage through is a key strategy of the deck.
Additionally, I prefer it over Rally the Peasants because it brings back Prized Amalgams, adding consistency to the deck. The fact that it's uncounterable in a side effect, but it already won me a couple games.
I added Flame Jab because I wanted a 1-of removal or something similar, it won over Lightning Axe because it can be cast from the graveyard and the deck dredges really hard G1. It kills dorks and things like Viscera Seer which are huge in my meta, plus it can solve a turn2 Scavenging Ooze if milled in the first couple dredges (or if it's in your starting hand, but Lightning Axe does that as well). Plus, it can mess with combat, as your opponent can no longer effectively block our 2/3 power creatures with 3/4 thoughness creatures.
I added Flame Jab because I wanted a 1-of removal or something similar, it won over Lightning Axe because it can be cast from the graveyard and the deck dredges really hard G1.
Darkblast seems to be much better at this. You can get it every turn you need it or instantly off a draw ability.
I added Flame Jab because I wanted a 1-of removal or something similar, it won over Lightning Axe because it can be cast from the graveyard and the deck dredges really hard G1.
Darkblast seems to be much better at this. You can get it every turn you need it or instantly off a draw ability.
Sadly Darkblast doesn't kill 2-thoughness creatures (unless done in upkeep+mainphase, which needs double black mana which is really hard), G1 Scavenging Oozes are everywhere.
I just wanted a payoff card instead of an enabler, plus without it I don't need black mana at all pre-sideboard. I want to dredge way harder than 3 G1, unless I'm building towards a huge Conflagrate. With Flame Jab, I can still Dredge 3 anyway with loam, then deal up to 3 damage instead of max 1 'damage' (of course, I have to spend more mana to deal more damage, but it's a non-issue when LftL is online).
Obviously Darkblast is huge in some matchups, but I prefer them in the sideboard. Flame Jab makes up for a nice 1-of card in the maindeck, it gets rid of any dork without wasting draws/dredges on it.
For bigger creatures u have Conflagrate, Dakblast is both removal for early creatures AND little help to start engine. Flame Jab looks very bad, why u want to play bad cards while we already rely on 1/1s and 2/1s? Other cards should be as synergistic as they can be, Flame Jab won't help.
For bigger creatures u have Conflagrate, Dakblast is both removal for early creatures AND little help to start engine. Flame Jab looks very bad, why u want to play bad cards while we already rely on 1/1s and 2/1s? Other cards should be as synergistic as they can be, Flame Jab won't help.
Still, it won me games killing a couple of turn2 Scavenging Ooze G1 and messed with combat multiple times. Have you tried it?
I will probably replace it with something else, but for sure not with Darkblast. Lightning Axe could be nice as it's an enabler, but it does nothing while in GY.
Garindan - I have read the last page of posts, and I really like your reasoning on card selection. A lot of the cards have been dismissed but people haven't tested them - so for me, kudos for trying new tech and sharing it!
I tried Scourge Devil last night in just 1 game. I misplayed instantly, thinking i could flash the ability from GY, but can't. Doh. So then i started to flame the card, thinking that it's not as tricky as it could be. Then I stopped and worked out the maths. I was up against Eldrazi, and they had path mana open. Rally would not beat path (as they had a few blockers), but Scourge would - since its an extra body and spreads the damage out. Had I not misplayed, I would have won that turn. I won eventually anyway, but the point is - scourge was decent.
I haven't tested Flame Jab, and at first glance, I'm not in love with it. I do run Lightning Axe as a 1-of in the main, and quite like it. I also have darkblast in the main - so I have 1 card that's an enabler, and 1 card that's relevant from GY. It works for me. However, the point about messing up combat is fairly relevant with Jab. I've often had to attack, then flashback looting to dredge darkblast to -1 something. That's really inefficient (4 mana to -1), and jab does that job better. I guess my thing with flame jab is that conflagerate is probably the better card on balance, and that card I don't feel fits into the deck.
I am going to test Scourge Devil, because it's amalgam triggers are pretty cool
Thank you so much, finally someone who is actually testing the cards! I'm glad you're liking Devils, if feel like it's slightly worse than Rally on the damage part (but very very close), but the fact that it's an Amalgam enabler puts it on top. I like playing 2, because I really want to push hard G1 and then they are the cards that come out in almost every match. Also think about Scourge vs Rally on an empty board (ours shouldn't be empty, but MD Anger of the Gods exists).
Regarding Flame Jab, I was really, really close to playing Lightning Axe instead, but I wanted to try it and I got rewarded. Most of the time, if they see it in our graveyard they won't block our Bloodghast with their x/3 value creature, so that we're pushing damage through spending 0 mana and 0 cards. Then when they find a permanent answer to our threats we're already building towards a huge Conflagrate, and at that point that extra 2 damage from Bloodghast matters a lot.
I agree it's very narrow and I would probably cut it for a multi-purpose enabler (something like Ligthning Axe), but I would rather play a 1-of that's good in the graveyard. Worm Harvest for some trolling? There's nothing that really satisfies me in that slot, maybe a 1-of good enabler is the best thing to improve consistency.
My initial thought is no. There aren't a lot of commonly played instants or sorceries that give us trouble - the main things that mess us up are artifacts or enchantments, so the enemy discard is not as good as it seems. That leaves removal as the primary option, which Lightning Axe does a lot better.
You could say that it can be SBed to shore up the combo matchups, but Thoughtseize is cheaper and can grab artifacts/enchantments too.
What do u think about Thoughtseize in sideboard? On paper It looks great - for 1 mana deals with opponent's best card. But after testing I realized that Thoughtseize is not that great:
1. To be effective we should cast it on turn 1 (to shot grave hate) but lists have only 10-11 sources of black mana on turn 1. After turn 1 Thoughtseize can be too late.
2. It's much weaker on draw since opponent can play Grafdigger's Cage before we get a chance to interact. For example Natural State would be better becouse it will deal with a problem both on play and draw.
3. 2 life it's a big cost in 3 colored manabase and sometimes rainbow lands.
Of course Thoughtseize is the best card we can have against combo decks for example Scapeshift or Ad Nauseam but that match ups are so bad that probably the best plan is to be fast and hope they don't have something.
In my opinion dredge's sideboard should be focused on dealing with specific hate not having "catch all" answers.
I don't think Collective Brutality will see play in dredge - if it's not in our opening hand we are never going to play it, and the effect isn't really what we are going for. It's a great card, but not for dredge.
As far as Thoughtsieze goes, I think it would be meta dependent. If your meta is a lot of combo it would be good in games 2/3, but if it's not I would think it's a dead card most of the time (again, not being able to be cast once in the graveyard).
"if it's not in our opening hand we are never going to play it"
Irrelevant, dredge plays a bunch of cards that are useless when they hit the graveyard and we will never play them (in each game). The list includes tormenting voice, burning inquiry, streetwraith, lightning axe.. The list goes on.
"and the effect isn't really what we are going for"
This makes no sense; it's uncounterable discard, it kills x/2's, gains life and gets rid of potential main deck hate like anger of the gods.
Thoughtseize is widely played as a sideboard card against jund and jeskai decks that could board in rest in peace, gets rid of kalitas and scooze (two huge issues for us) for 1 mana. Again calling it a "dead card most of the time" due to it being uncastable once hitting the graveyard is entirely irrelevant.
EDIT: The real reason this card isn't good for us is because our gameplan has the misfortune of being non-interactive. You'd be cutting speed, like street wraiths, or burning inquiries to accommodate this card. It fights tormenting voice, which accelerates our game plan further. It isn't as good as conflagration in any way and fights to perform a similar action. It isn't a creature, which makes it worse to have post board with gnaw to the bone in the deck (small negative). Lastly the "sorcery or instant" clause is what kills the potential here. There is practically no reason to play this card over conflagration or tormenting voice and cutting speed for interaction is not worth it in game one.
Compared to Skaab
Pros:
-Higher total stats
-Splits stats across 2 bodies (less prone to removal & better for rites+craterhoof)
-The token does not come in tapped (if needing a blocker immediately)
-Lets the mana stay in 3 colors (probably don't need rainbow manabase)
Cons:
-1 flying power vs. 3 (skaab is a better evasive beatstick)
UR Storm
RBG Dredge
EDH:
UR Mizzix
GB Gitrog
WB Daxos
UR Storm
RBG Dredge
EDH:
UR Mizzix
GB Gitrog
WB Daxos
i run Dredge for myself, tapping into BUG-Colors as i love Thought Scouring myself.
Sadly my 1-mana-Enablers are all worse than Faithless Looting.
I run 4 Dream Twist and 4 Thought Scour nowadays, but that feels wrong in many cases.
The first digs just 3 Cards, teh latter 2, which isn't enough sadly.
What's your recommendation here?
4 Tome Scour, 4 Drowned Rusalka?
I'd really be goin' mad if i must cut Scour - it's just a bunch of fun to play.
Green @ it's best
1 Yavimaya Coast
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 polluted Delta
2 Overgrown Tomb
2 Watery Grave
1 Breeding Pool
1 Swamp
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Dakmor Salvage
20 Lands
4 Dream Twist
1 Raven's Crime
9 Turn 1 Plays
4 Bloodghast
4 Prized Amalgam
4 Gravecrawler
4 Dregscape Zombie
16 Grave-Dudes
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
11 Dredgers
4 Stitchwing Skaab
4 Discard Outlets
I'm discovered Sinister Concoction could be a great Enabler too, serving double purposes.
Green @ it's best
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
With 3 or less creatures, Scourge Devil deals more damage. With 5 or more creatures, Rally the Peasants deals more damage.
This is not based on the number of attacking creatures, but on the number of creatures that connect, as most opponents have blockers, removals, or both, especially on the first 'big' attack. Scourge Devil adds a creature that has to be removed or blocked: it spreads the damage, so that it will be harder to prevent for your opponent, and pushing damage through is a key strategy of the deck.
Additionally, I prefer it over Rally the Peasants because it brings back Prized Amalgams, adding consistency to the deck. The fact that it's uncounterable in a side effect, but it already won me a couple games.
I added Flame Jab because I wanted a 1-of removal or something similar, it won over Lightning Axe because it can be cast from the graveyard and the deck dredges really hard G1. It kills dorks and things like Viscera Seer which are huge in my meta, plus it can solve a turn2 Scavenging Ooze if milled in the first couple dredges (or if it's in your starting hand, but Lightning Axe does that as well). Plus, it can mess with combat, as your opponent can no longer effectively block our 2/3 power creatures with 3/4 thoughness creatures.
Darkblast seems to be much better at this. You can get it every turn you need it or instantly off a draw ability.
Sadly Darkblast doesn't kill 2-thoughness creatures (unless done in upkeep+mainphase, which needs double black mana which is really hard), G1 Scavenging Oozes are everywhere.
I just wanted a payoff card instead of an enabler, plus without it I don't need black mana at all pre-sideboard. I want to dredge way harder than 3 G1, unless I'm building towards a huge Conflagrate. With Flame Jab, I can still Dredge 3 anyway with loam, then deal up to 3 damage instead of max 1 'damage' (of course, I have to spend more mana to deal more damage, but it's a non-issue when LftL is online).
Obviously Darkblast is huge in some matchups, but I prefer them in the sideboard. Flame Jab makes up for a nice 1-of card in the maindeck, it gets rid of any dork without wasting draws/dredges on it.
I don't like that it taps for colorless, and it does allow your opponent to draw their hate faster in game 2.
UR Storm
RBG Dredge
EDH:
UR Mizzix
GB Gitrog
WB Daxos
Still, it won me games killing a couple of turn2 Scavenging Ooze G1 and messed with combat multiple times. Have you tried it?
I will probably replace it with something else, but for sure not with Darkblast. Lightning Axe could be nice as it's an enabler, but it does nothing while in GY.
Thank you so much, finally someone who is actually testing the cards! I'm glad you're liking Devils, if feel like it's slightly worse than Rally on the damage part (but very very close), but the fact that it's an Amalgam enabler puts it on top. I like playing 2, because I really want to push hard G1 and then they are the cards that come out in almost every match. Also think about Scourge vs Rally on an empty board (ours shouldn't be empty, but MD Anger of the Gods exists).
Regarding Flame Jab, I was really, really close to playing Lightning Axe instead, but I wanted to try it and I got rewarded. Most of the time, if they see it in our graveyard they won't block our Bloodghast with their x/3 value creature, so that we're pushing damage through spending 0 mana and 0 cards. Then when they find a permanent answer to our threats we're already building towards a huge Conflagrate, and at that point that extra 2 damage from Bloodghast matters a lot.
I agree it's very narrow and I would probably cut it for a multi-purpose enabler (something like Ligthning Axe), but I would rather play a 1-of that's good in the graveyard. Worm Harvest for some trolling? There's nothing that really satisfies me in that slot, maybe a 1-of good enabler is the best thing to improve consistency.
You could say that it can be SBed to shore up the combo matchups, but Thoughtseize is cheaper and can grab artifacts/enchantments too.
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
1. To be effective we should cast it on turn 1 (to shot grave hate) but lists have only 10-11 sources of black mana on turn 1. After turn 1 Thoughtseize can be too late.
2. It's much weaker on draw since opponent can play Grafdigger's Cage before we get a chance to interact. For example Natural State would be better becouse it will deal with a problem both on play and draw.
3. 2 life it's a big cost in 3 colored manabase and sometimes rainbow lands.
Of course Thoughtseize is the best card we can have against combo decks for example Scapeshift or Ad Nauseam but that match ups are so bad that probably the best plan is to be fast and hope they don't have something.
In my opinion dredge's sideboard should be focused on dealing with specific hate not having "catch all" answers.
As far as Thoughtsieze goes, I think it would be meta dependent. If your meta is a lot of combo it would be good in games 2/3, but if it's not I would think it's a dead card most of the time (again, not being able to be cast once in the graveyard).
UR Storm
RBG Dredge
EDH:
UR Mizzix
GB Gitrog
WB Daxos
Irrelevant, dredge plays a bunch of cards that are useless when they hit the graveyard and we will never play them (in each game). The list includes tormenting voice, burning inquiry, streetwraith, lightning axe.. The list goes on.
"and the effect isn't really what we are going for"
This makes no sense; it's uncounterable discard, it kills x/2's, gains life and gets rid of potential main deck hate like anger of the gods.
Thoughtseize is widely played as a sideboard card against jund and jeskai decks that could board in rest in peace, gets rid of kalitas and scooze (two huge issues for us) for 1 mana. Again calling it a "dead card most of the time" due to it being uncastable once hitting the graveyard is entirely irrelevant.
EDIT: The real reason this card isn't good for us is because our gameplan has the misfortune of being non-interactive. You'd be cutting speed, like street wraiths, or burning inquiries to accommodate this card. It fights tormenting voice, which accelerates our game plan further. It isn't as good as conflagration in any way and fights to perform a similar action. It isn't a creature, which makes it worse to have post board with gnaw to the bone in the deck (small negative). Lastly the "sorcery or instant" clause is what kills the potential here. There is practically no reason to play this card over conflagration or tormenting voice and cutting speed for interaction is not worth it in game one.