Noxious Revival is way better than most people seem to think.
It can stick a fetch on top of your library if you want to draw a land.
It can stick a killed or discarded Paladin on top.
It can stick a Retract on top just before playing your last 0 during a combo turn.
You can use it to dodge discard, let's say you have a Paladin in the yard and your opponent casts Thoughtseize. You can Revival your Paladin in response to stick it back on top, safe from any more discard, which you know they have because they always have more.
You can cast it in response to removal on your Mentor to get an extra trigger without spending any mana.
As mentioned earlier, too much pain in your mana base, Cavern isn't great in our deck, and I love Noxious but more than two feels like too many. I used to run one Nox and two Muddle, but Muddle isn't quite as necessary with Sram coming.
Since you're all in on the combo, you might want to look into Serum Powder. The last time I saw that this deck did well in a big tourney the guy was running a full playset.
I don't own the Opals or Leyline of Sanctity yet, so I dropped the Leylines for now and shifted the Mentor plan to the SB. This is more focused on the combo kill game 1 and Cranes are more of an assumption of setting up for the solid turn 3. The fact that it finds us an artifact and acts as a blocker for Inkmoth Nexus helps as well. I like the idea of the Muddles as well, but they would likely slot in over Repeal or the Cranes if they were determined to not add enough to the decklist. I did go ahead and pre-order a set of Sram @$2 each today tho, so let's see what happens w/this deck Haven't actually played any games w/this one yet but I've been keeping tabs on it for awhile. Likely pick up Opals end of the month if things look to be shaking out well in this deck's favor in the meta post-B&R.
This deck doesn't work without Mox Opal. If you really want to, you can play a non-combo version like this which wins with Myth Realized and Monastery Mentor instead of Grapeshot. You won't get any T2/T3 kills with it though, which is kind of the point of playing the deck.
Izzetmage, I think you aswell could benefit from adding a second basic Plains to your list. Also, if you can afford it, it's probably better to max Hallowed Fountain before playing fastlands and painlands, and same as Serenechaos, you're all in on the Paladin/Sram and soft to removal without Sigarda's Aid or Monastery Mentor.
Why do you recommend cutting fastlands? They're painless and this deck's curve is low.
Fastlands are better than pain lands, I think, but in my experience the deck thinning is quite significant in a 13 land deck. I also play a Sacred Foundry to help cast my red spells. Your 8 cantrips might change things, so your milage may vary. As for the second basic Plains, it's so you can cast a Paladin through a Mentor.
As someone mentioned about a posible mox opal ban, this would cripple the decks ability to go off on turn 2 and make it very hard to even win until turn 4 while you build up mana. I dont like mainboard retracts i cut them as there not that good and if your looking to build up storm you've got enough in the 4 retracts and the paladins. Im not sure why people are considering dropping down below 8 paladins as the deck needs them and if one dies and your running 6 as someone mentioned the odds are not in your favour for drawing another one fast enough. The problem with runing mentor mainboard though is we wont have to the mana to play it likely, so for this gavaleer is better. Also 1 Noxious revival might be ok but more than that and your cutting artifacts which you need to go off or paladins which you also need.
Are you saying you cut your main deck Repeals? As I've said many a time in the old thread, Repeal is the best card in the deck. I like how the Noxious Revival thing looked, so I'll make a list for Repeal.
Repeal a Mox Opal to simply cycle it while being mana neutral.
Repeal a cheeri0 to draw 1 + the number of Paladin/Sram you have for U.
Do either of the above tricks to get extra Monastery Mentor triggers. This can be done in response to removal if you don't have the 3U to save Mentor.
Repeal a Paladin/Sram to dodge a removal spell. This does cost 2U and sets you back a turn, but it's better than letting your guy die.
Repeal a creature that's about to kill you to buy time to go off. Most attacking creatures in Modern cost 1 or 2 mana.
Repeal an artifact, enchantment, or creature that's preventing you from comboing. Most hate cards against us cost 2 or 3 mana.
I think that covers Repeal. As for my decision to only play 3 (yes, I know I said 2 in my first post) Sram, Senior Edificer, he's just not as good as Paladin since you can't play multiples and you don't want to get creature flooded. Mentor and Ghirapur Æther Grid can pick up the slack in removal heavy matchups.
I don't own the Opals or Leyline of Sanctity yet, so I dropped the Leylines for now and shifted the Mentor plan to the SB. This is more focused on the combo kill game 1 and Cranes are more of an assumption of setting up for the solid turn 3. The fact that it finds us an artifact and acts as a blocker for Inkmoth Nexus helps as well. I like the idea of the Muddles as well, but they would likely slot in over Repeal or the Cranes if they were determined to not add enough to the decklist. I did go ahead and pre-order a set of Sram @$2 each today tho, so let's see what happens w/this deck Haven't actually played any games w/this one yet but I've been keeping tabs on it for awhile. Likely pick up Opals end of the month if things look to be shaking out well in this deck's favor in the meta post-B&R.
Thoughts?
Hi SSquirrel, not having Leylines is probably fine, I actually hate boarding them in against anything that isn't hand hate. They take up too much room and by the time we could cast one we don't really need it. That said, they are pretty cheap right now.
As for your main deck, what does Glint-Nest Crane actually do for you? All our artifacts are generally terrible unless we're comboing, and 1U for a 1/2 flying cantrip seems bad. Ornithopter is a good option for a flying blocker with the added bonus of costing 0 so we can turn 1 land, thopter, play and equip Paradise Mantle and do the build-you-own Mox thing with Mass Hysteria.
4 Noxious Revival is a must in any version of this deck that aims to push the combo hard. Removal is just too painful and the card has way too many niche uses to pass up.
Painlands are not a problem, only Burn is a serious consideration for hoarding life totals, and they're already a bad matchup due to having so many Bolts with our Paladin's name written on them. Even using painlands exclusively would only top out at maybe ~5 or 6 damage in a long game. Every cheeri0s deck in every format should have a very Black conception of life totals.
20-23 0-drops is about the perfect zone. Depends on what you want to do and what your support cards are (such as Mentor wanting maybe 22 for more explosive turns), but 16 is far too few and 18 is optimal for versions aiming at Turn 3. Legacy Cheeri0s traditionally runs 26-28, but the balance has to be slightly different because it goes off Turn 1 instead of Turn 2 and essentially can't use lands.
Cavern of Souls is a must-use in combo centric lists. It does not at all interfere with Retract, Noxious Revival should virtually always be cast for 2 life, and it can cast Grapeshot, Transmute Muddle, and pay for a non-zero Repeal. Beating turn 2 and 3 counterspells is way too important to ignore. I have never, ever run this deck without 4 Caverns.
To expand on that a little bit, here's why it doesn't interfere with casting anything:
Either you go off Turn 2, in which case you used both your lands for Paladin or Sram already, and NO land in your deck would be useful for casting things, or you went off Turn 3, meaning you got to choose which 2 of your 3 lands you used to cast Paladin/Sram, and which one is open for Retract. If you chose to leave Cavern open...well stop that. Maybe you'd holding 3 Caverns or you go off on 2 lands turn 3 and draw Cavern. These won't come up often, but in each case chances are you're better off holding the Cavern (in the first case) or that you would've bricked on any land (in the second case). Only very rarely will you draw Cavern, Retract, and no other mana source or way to continue.
2 Plains is generally a judgment call, but when pushing as hard as possible for turn 2 wins, it's too many. It essentially only serves as a basic for when you get Path'd, so that your opponent isn't just using the single best removal spell in the game.
When the deck was young, it was able to reach about a 50% turn 2 goldfish. Having 8 Paladins raises that to (at a rough estimate before doing lots of crazy math) about 80%. That's based on a 92% of seeing a Paladin or Sram within a mulligan to 6, and the increased odds of opening with 2 mana sources+engine because you need fewer mulligans and thus start with more cards.
Also, having 8 guys means that you should NOT mulligan to 4, and should mulligan to 5 less aggressively; the increase for an 8-of on the mull to 5 (92% to 96%) is not large enough to be worth it in most cases.
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Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
The deck got a giant consistency boost from Sram, but its engines still belong to the most vulnerable card type in the game.
Agree that this is the way to go. I'd consider shaving a land for a Noxious, but wouldn't get much trickier than that. I'd also think about Caverns in certain metagames, particularly those with lots of Delver, Grixis, and Jeskai.
Good combo decks don't need too much protection/utility with cute things like Repeal, Muddle, or Noxious. Pre-ban Storm didn't have it, nor did TC Jeskai Ascendancy. Contemporary Ad Nauseam has 3-4 Pacts in the main, but it's a much leaner combo than we are running and doesn't need "engine" pieces like ours. Under no circumstances should we go over the Ad Nauseam interaction count, and I'd keep it on the lower end (0-1) than the higher end (3-4).
Good combo decks don't need too much protection/utility
I'm going to disagree with this ktkenshinx (also hey! Long time no see). Good combo decks have utility built into them without disrupting the engine, otherwise every combo deck would be glass cannon. Things like Noxious revival, which cost minimal resources (one card, 2 life, 4 deck slots) but offer multiple uses, and flow well with the engine (which Noxious does magnificently) are very important. In Legacy Cheeri0s, things like Summoner's Pact, Noxious, and Ingot Chewer fill this role. In Vintage Oath, Swan Song, Beast Within, and niche things like Memory's Journey. In Elves, the choices of specific elves are based on utility. Combos can stand as "good" on their own, but a full combo deck has to have something built into it that covers a lot of bases or offers seamless protection.
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Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
I still dont see the appeal for repeal, by the time your going off its probably too late to worry about a path or removal which is why pact of negation is am ust have 4 of. In all my testing with a previous list pact proved to be the most useful card in the deck and saved me so many times from either a counter or removal. It allows the deck to Achieve a fairly high turn 2 in rate and post board you can adjust to suit your matchup. Retract already does the job of cycling artifacts to draw you more cards. Your going to draw enough artifacts to go off anyway or draw a retract to do it anyway. When going off it doesnt matter if your draw the excess paladins, you need 8 of them to ensure you go off in the first place with one in your opening hand, and cutting down below this makes the deck less good.
Im still not happy with the points for noxious revival. Your cutting too much to make room for it, Also 24 artifacts is enough to guarantee going off turn 2 unless you get flooded with other cards. As for the Mana base 15 lands is perfect With some number of basic plains, ideally 2 and 4 hallowed fountain and a number of fetches and mana confluence and city of brass. This has been my mana base so far and has done perfectly for me.
With this you can fight through blood moon as you can fetch the basics before it hits. Cavern of souls is not good. If both the paladins were the same creature type i would happily run 4 however there not so it can make the already slightly awkward mana base horrendous.
As serenechaos said about the win percentage on turn 2, this deck can be very explosive and cutting down on the cards we need or adding too many cards we rarely will use will make this deck suffer.
I guess those are fair arguments. My experience playing Eggs has lead me to play a more resilient deck that you're proposing. Yeah, your turn 2 rate goes down, but I think the overall win rate goes up. When you're all in on the turn 2 but your engine dies to Spell Snare, Fatal Push, Path to Exile, Lightning Bolt and some other, less played, one mana spells and another few two mana spells you're betting on your opponent not having any interaction on your turn two. Sure, some matchups don't play that stuff, but not many. My builds tend to be able to combo well while not straight up losing the game when my first Paladin gets countered, killed, or discarded as well as having outs to any hate cards my opponent might play, be that Eidolon of the Great Revel, Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, or even Rule of Law. Basically, we're all playing Cheeri0s, but you and Serenechaos are playing the turbo version while the_falsehate, be_lakor, and myself are playing a slower, grindier, more resilient version. I think both have merit, and you know more about the turbo version than I do, and I wasn't really considering the idea of playing that version. I still think my Repeals and Noxious Revivals are worth it in my build, but I see why they might not be in yours.
Also, can someone explain some of the math you're doing to calculate the ideal number of lands and cheeri0s and what not?
Good to see some old faces on this thread as well as new ones.
It seems that we are going round in circles regarding the mana base and certain spells. Is the best possible solution that everyone sticks to their respective lists and tries to keep accurate logs of their match ups so that we can see statistically what the best win rates are.... Just a suggestion
On a separate note, someone mentioned the possibility of a ban on Mox Opal. Was this based on any fact or just hearsay?
Overall good to see such an interest in the deck!
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I'm going to disagree with this ktkenshinx (also hey! Long time no see). Good combo decks have utility built into them without disrupting the engine, otherwise every combo deck would be glass cannon. Things like Noxious revival, which cost minimal resources (one card, 2 life, 4 deck slots) but offer multiple uses, and flow well with the engine (which Noxious does magnificently) are very important. In Legacy Cheeri0s, things like Summoner's Pact, Noxious, and Ingot Chewer fill this role. In Vintage Oath, Swan Song, Beast Within, and niche things like Memory's Journey. In Elves, the choices of specific elves are based on utility. Combos can stand as "good" on their own, but a full combo deck has to have something built into it that covers a lot of bases or offers seamless protection.
Oath is a very different combo deck in a very different format, so we can't compare the two. Nor Elves because it has a combo route, a midrange plan, and an aggro plan all in the same deck. We're a dedicated engine combo that commits a whopping 32-34 slots to the combo (8 engines, 4 Retract, 18-20 equipment, 2 GS) and another 8 for cantrips. The remaining slots need to shore up that redundancy, not dilute it with tricks. 1 Noxious accomplishes that. 3-4 do not, especially on top of 3-4 Muddle/Repeal. That's just too much filler for an engine deck like ours, especially when we are using bad cantrips (Sleight, SV) compared to those available in other formats.
On a separate note, someone mentioned the possibility of a ban on Mox Opal. Was this based on any fact or just hearsay?
Things like this are never based in fact. Some of the various articles in the recent past that were focused on potential bannings have brought it up. The main one off the top of my head being Sam Black's article on SCG. I don't recall if he listed it as one he believed would improve the format or just one that he saw as a potential that was a sensible choice. He was approaching that card from a pure power level, considering it would also neuter the Lantern Control deck he likes to play. Banlist talk is off limits tho, so I'm not going to go further in depth than a quick explanation of where that comment came from
I think people are trying to do too many things all at once at the moment, alot of the above discussion I feel is trying to tune the deck based on tweaking around the edges when the core hasn't been settled yet. As I stated a while ago, I won't be posting a decklist until AER is fully spoiled, and even then, I suspect it should take a few weeks at least of testing to get enough data to make any real commentary on what works and what does not.
Nonetheless, here are my two cents:
There are a spectrum of possible decks, ranging from full combo to aggro. Aggro sacrifices speed and the possibility of fizzling for resilience in the form of multiple wincons. Full combo can also come in different varieties: combo with filtration, combo with protection, combo with nothing but the combo, etc. It is important to recognise what type of deck you are making, and what type of deck others are making, when analysing the lists in this thread. Every change you make to the deck effects your odds of drawing a dead hand, fizzling mid combo and your clock if paladin dies. Balancing these three criteria are key to deckbuilding this deck, and I suspect there will be no one "optimal" deck, rather a spectrum of possible decks each with slightly different strategies and tuned for specific metas.
When playtesting a new version of the deck, I always find it is preferable to start with a full undiluted combo version and, if that doesn't work, to add aggro or combo support cards. Once I dilute the combo too much, I know where the sweetspot of 'flex' cards are, and that gives me a based to build from. Analysing individual cards without determining the number of flex slots in your deck is, in my view, and exercise in randomness and won't allow you to determine if your deck is optimal or not.
That said, here's my thoughts:
1)Number of Paladins
This used to be a no-brainer: run all 4. With sram, the count can go up to 8. No decks have tested with 8 paladins, and it is possible that 8 is too many. Some lists above seem to have decided to above run less than 8. However, in my view, the starting point should be running the full 8 unless your playtesting tells you that 8 is too many. This is moreso a mathematical exercise: what are the odds of bricking by drawing too many srams? How much value does the extra couple of cards added by removing sram add as compared to running the full 8? Only once that exercise is done can there be meaningful discussion on this point. I certainly haven't done it yet. My gut feel is "run 8", but I could be wrong.
Card count:8
2)Number of Cheeri0s
I think it is more or less decided that 16 is default number, but is highly flexible. A more aggro deck requires less cheeri0s than a full combo deck, and the number is also influenced by the amount of filtration being run. 12 and 20 are probably the comfort bounds, so plus or minus 4 flex slots
Card count: 24 +-4
2)Retract and Repeal
Although many are adamant that 4-of-each are optimal, it is worth recognising that running less can be viable. The value of repeal, in particular, changes depending on what is being run with it. More mentors (storm entity, myth realized, etc) make repeal more valuable, whereas more cantrips make repeal less valuable. It is worth recognising that retract can be dead if you don't draw a paladin or other engine. I have had some success with decks running less than 4 retracts. Nonetheless, undiluted full combo will typically run all 8, but the number is flexible, though I would typically only adjust this after running out of flex slots elsewhere.
Card count: 32 +-8
3) lands +mox opal
You can play this deck on a budget without mox opal, but you will sacrifice speed and greatly increase your risks of fizzling as you can't cast multiple retracts. This means an aggro strategy is probably better than a combo strategy if you don't have moxes.
That said, including the 4 moxes, the deck will typically run 12-16 lands (16-20 mana sources).
Fetchlands are typically preferred since they get cards out of your deck and marginally reduce your odds of fizzling mid-combo. This means running shocklands. Typically, 2-3 hallowed fountain and 1 sacred foundry is sufficient, to give access to WW for paladin, once blue for retract/repeal, and one red for grapeshot. Redundant copies can be added in case of ghost quarter, and also because sometimes you can run out of fetch targets if only the bare minimum is run. You don't need to worry too much about red for grapeshot, that usually comes from moxes.
The advantage of fetchlands is not set in stone however, the lifeloss from shocks can be material, and the filtration advantage is typically marginal. Running fastlands, or any other modern-playble land, including painlands, glimmervoid, is viable.
Meta calls should also be made here- if your opponent has paths, ghost quarter, then you should run one or two basics. I typically like one plains, one island, if the meta demands it. Cavern of souls is also a good choice if counterspells are a thing. I find creature counters to be pretty rare, so I don't cavern for budget reasons, but your mileage may vary.
Count: 52 +-12
Wincon: Grapeshot
Can't forget a wincon. Dedicate at least one card, usually two in case of discard.
Count: 53 +-13
Flex slots: 7 +-13
This is where card choices belong- determine your number of flex slots and go from there. These slots will be filled up with aggro, protection or filtration/support cards.
my initial testing will be with a reduction in lands to, say 14, to up the flex slots, then test with a few copies of monastary mentor, a full set of sigarda's aid, and fill the remaining slots with cantrips, extra Cheeri0s, silence or one redundant retracts (recall or paradoxical outcome). The new Reverse Engineer could also be good?
It seems that we are going round in circles regarding the mana base and certain spells. Is the best possible solution that everyone sticks to their respective lists and tries to keep accurate logs of their match ups so that we can see statistically what the best win rates are.... Just a suggestion
This is a bad idea. We should keep records and talk about what is good or bad in a specific matchup, but we'd need hundreds of matches, minimum, per list, to get any useful data. Add in the fact that we all have different skill levels and local metas and any win statistics become complete garbage.
tl;dr share specific info on what you played against, how you won or lost, and how you sideboarded, just plain win/loss stats are garbage.
As someone mentioned about a posible mox opal ban, this would cripple the decks ability to go off on turn 2 and make it very hard to even win until turn 4 while you build up mana. I dont like mainboard retracts i cut them as there not that good and if your looking to build up storm you've got enough in the 4 retracts and the paladins. Im not sure why people are considering dropping down below 8 paladins as the deck needs them and if one dies and your running 6 as someone mentioned the odds are not in your favour for drawing another one fast enough. The problem with runing mentor mainboard though is we wont have to the mana to play it likely, so for this gavaleer is better. Also 1 Noxious revival might be ok but more than that and your cutting artifacts which you need to go off or paladins which you also need.
Did you mean "...I don't like mainboard Repeals ..."? I'm not as enamoured with mainboard Repeals as many others on the prior forum were, but it is incredibly powerful. Based on my tournament experiences I would take 4 mainboard Repeal over 4 mainboard Noxious Revival for sure!
As far as Mentor goes, T1: Land, Ornithopter, Sigarda's Aid; T2: Land, Paradise Mantle (on Ornithopter), Mentor, Opal, Retract, Ornithopter, Mantle, Opal is hilarious if the Mentor sticks. I did that against Soul Sisters one time and took over before my opponent could get going. There are multiple scenarios where a T3 Mentor follows a T2 Pally with mana to spare. Having said that I'm not certain if Gavaleer or Mentor will be in my build until I complete a few hours of goldfishing with proxied playsets of Sram and Serum Powder. My heart wants a Combo/Aggro blend, but my mind wants data before deciding.
If you're wanting to playtest for "optimal", I recommend treating the Mana Confluence as Glimmervoid and increasing to a playset. You can always play with what you have, but this will give you an idea of how the upgrade would help.
I would actually see dropping Muddled altogether in an extremely aggressive, streamlined list; Datka is still for it but I'm not sure it's worth the dead draws now that there are 8 natural Paladins. At least not in every playstyle.
I would still not play cantrips, and never play any Cheeri0s deck without the full playset of Noxious.
And comparing decks across formats is fine when we're looking at very fundamental elements of an archetype. We aren't comparing Oath's plan to ours, or the meta that Oath has to contend with to Burn and BG/x; we're comparing basic functionality. It has an engine, cards devoted to making that engine run, cards that the engine turns into wins, and it has elements that flow seamlessly into the engine to perform important side jobs. Almost every combo deck ever does. Noxious Revival does many, many things, and it does them while playing straight into our engine (manipulating the topdeck in a combo that uses draw power as fuel). 1 Noxious will not reliably be an anti-Bolt when you need it. 1-ofs and 2-ofs in this style of deck mean "I need this, but not until after I've drawn my deck". I need Noxious almost all the time.
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Slowly breaking.
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
It seems that we are going round in circles regarding the mana base and certain spells. Is the best possible solution that everyone sticks to their respective lists and tries to keep accurate logs of their match ups so that we can see statistically what the best win rates are.... Just a suggestion
This is a bad idea. We should keep records and talk about what is good or bad in a specific matchup, but we'd need hundreds of matches, minimum, per list, to get any useful data. Add in the fact that we all have different skill levels and local metas and any win statistics become complete garbage.
tl;dr share specific info on what you played against, how you won or lost, and how you sideboarded, just plain win/loss stats are garbage.
Smash, don't get me wrong, I was only messing around. More meant as a light hearted jest
I agree with Slax01, regarding waiting until full release of AER before formulating a decklist.
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...Having said that I'm not certain if Gavaleer or Mentor will be in my build until I complete a few hours of goldfishing with proxied playsets of Sram and Serum Powder. My heart wants a Combo/Aggro blend, but my mind wants data before deciding.
Maybe go for an online playtester? Less time spent shuffling, though some people play better with physical cards, especially with a deck like this.
I'm not sure why the downward trend continued after we tested down to 22, but I say very, very confidently that 18 is the absolute minimum, and that only for slower lists. 20-23 is optimal for normal lists, 24 or 25 for very streamlined lists, and 26 is the upper bound (and I can't think of a list that actually would be good with that many). This deck is about chaining equipments until you find Retract or a second Paladin, and having too few equipments makes that very unlikely. 16 is not going to be smooth on turn 2, ever, and it probably won't be very consistent on turn 3 unless you manage to open with Retract or a second Paladin.
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Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
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Great write-up on Noxious!
As mentioned earlier, too much pain in your mana base, Cavern isn't great in our deck, and I love Noxious but more than two feels like too many. I used to run one Nox and two Muddle, but Muddle isn't quite as necessary with Sram coming.
Since you're all in on the combo, you might want to look into Serum Powder. The last time I saw that this deck did well in a big tourney the guy was running a full playset.
Creatures: 12
4 Puresteel Paladin
4 Sram, Senior Edificer
4 Glint-Nest Crane
Spells: 34
4 Mox Opal
4 Paradise Mantle
4 Retract
4 Repeal
4 Spidersilk Net
4 Accorder's Shield
4 Cathar's Shield
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Grapeshot
2 Sigarda's Aid
2 Noxious Revival
4 Flooded Strand
4 Windswept Heath
2 Seachrome Coast
2 Hallowed Fountain
2 Plains
3 Dispatch
1 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
1 Kor Firewalker
2 Disenchant
2 Monastery Mentor
1 Laboratory Maniac
1 Myth Realized
2 Mass Hysteria
Thoughts?
Fastlands are better than pain lands, I think, but in my experience the deck thinning is quite significant in a 13 land deck. I also play a Sacred Foundry to help cast my red spells. Your 8 cantrips might change things, so your milage may vary. As for the second basic Plains, it's so you can cast a Paladin through a Mentor.
Are you saying you cut your main deck Repeals? As I've said many a time in the old thread, Repeal is the best card in the deck. I like how the Noxious Revival thing looked, so I'll make a list for Repeal.
I think that covers Repeal. As for my decision to only play 3 (yes, I know I said 2 in my first post) Sram, Senior Edificer, he's just not as good as Paladin since you can't play multiples and you don't want to get creature flooded. Mentor and Ghirapur Æther Grid can pick up the slack in removal heavy matchups.
Hi SSquirrel, not having Leylines is probably fine, I actually hate boarding them in against anything that isn't hand hate. They take up too much room and by the time we could cast one we don't really need it. That said, they are pretty cheap right now.
As for your main deck, what does Glint-Nest Crane actually do for you? All our artifacts are generally terrible unless we're comboing, and 1U for a 1/2 flying cantrip seems bad. Ornithopter is a good option for a flying blocker with the added bonus of costing 0 so we can turn 1 land, thopter, play and equip Paradise Mantle and do the build-you-own Mox thing with Mass Hysteria.
Painlands are not a problem, only Burn is a serious consideration for hoarding life totals, and they're already a bad matchup due to having so many Bolts with our Paladin's name written on them. Even using painlands exclusively would only top out at maybe ~5 or 6 damage in a long game. Every cheeri0s deck in every format should have a very Black conception of life totals.
20-23 0-drops is about the perfect zone. Depends on what you want to do and what your support cards are (such as Mentor wanting maybe 22 for more explosive turns), but 16 is far too few and 18 is optimal for versions aiming at Turn 3. Legacy Cheeri0s traditionally runs 26-28, but the balance has to be slightly different because it goes off Turn 1 instead of Turn 2 and essentially can't use lands.
Cavern of Souls is a must-use in combo centric lists. It does not at all interfere with Retract, Noxious Revival should virtually always be cast for 2 life, and it can cast Grapeshot, Transmute Muddle, and pay for a non-zero Repeal. Beating turn 2 and 3 counterspells is way too important to ignore. I have never, ever run this deck without 4 Caverns.
To expand on that a little bit, here's why it doesn't interfere with casting anything:
Either you go off Turn 2, in which case you used both your lands for Paladin or Sram already, and NO land in your deck would be useful for casting things, or you went off Turn 3, meaning you got to choose which 2 of your 3 lands you used to cast Paladin/Sram, and which one is open for Retract. If you chose to leave Cavern open...well stop that. Maybe you'd holding 3 Caverns or you go off on 2 lands turn 3 and draw Cavern. These won't come up often, but in each case chances are you're better off holding the Cavern (in the first case) or that you would've bricked on any land (in the second case). Only very rarely will you draw Cavern, Retract, and no other mana source or way to continue.
2 Plains is generally a judgment call, but when pushing as hard as possible for turn 2 wins, it's too many. It essentially only serves as a basic for when you get Path'd, so that your opponent isn't just using the single best removal spell in the game.
When the deck was young, it was able to reach about a 50% turn 2 goldfish. Having 8 Paladins raises that to (at a rough estimate before doing lots of crazy math) about 80%. That's based on a 92% of seeing a Paladin or Sram within a mulligan to 6, and the increased odds of opening with 2 mana sources+engine because you need fewer mulligans and thus start with more cards.
Also, having 8 guys means that you should NOT mulligan to 4, and should mulligan to 5 less aggressively; the increase for an 8-of on the mull to 5 (92% to 96%) is not large enough to be worth it in most cases.
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
I know where you post.
Agree that this is the way to go. I'd consider shaving a land for a Noxious, but wouldn't get much trickier than that. I'd also think about Caverns in certain metagames, particularly those with lots of Delver, Grixis, and Jeskai.
Good combo decks don't need too much protection/utility with cute things like Repeal, Muddle, or Noxious. Pre-ban Storm didn't have it, nor did TC Jeskai Ascendancy. Contemporary Ad Nauseam has 3-4 Pacts in the main, but it's a much leaner combo than we are running and doesn't need "engine" pieces like ours. Under no circumstances should we go over the Ad Nauseam interaction count, and I'd keep it on the lower end (0-1) than the higher end (3-4).
I'm going to disagree with this ktkenshinx (also hey! Long time no see). Good combo decks have utility built into them without disrupting the engine, otherwise every combo deck would be glass cannon. Things like Noxious revival, which cost minimal resources (one card, 2 life, 4 deck slots) but offer multiple uses, and flow well with the engine (which Noxious does magnificently) are very important. In Legacy Cheeri0s, things like Summoner's Pact, Noxious, and Ingot Chewer fill this role. In Vintage Oath, Swan Song, Beast Within, and niche things like Memory's Journey. In Elves, the choices of specific elves are based on utility. Combos can stand as "good" on their own, but a full combo deck has to have something built into it that covers a lot of bases or offers seamless protection.
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
I know where you post.
I guess those are fair arguments. My experience playing Eggs has lead me to play a more resilient deck that you're proposing. Yeah, your turn 2 rate goes down, but I think the overall win rate goes up. When you're all in on the turn 2 but your engine dies to Spell Snare, Fatal Push, Path to Exile, Lightning Bolt and some other, less played, one mana spells and another few two mana spells you're betting on your opponent not having any interaction on your turn two. Sure, some matchups don't play that stuff, but not many. My builds tend to be able to combo well while not straight up losing the game when my first Paladin gets countered, killed, or discarded as well as having outs to any hate cards my opponent might play, be that Eidolon of the Great Revel, Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, or even Rule of Law. Basically, we're all playing Cheeri0s, but you and Serenechaos are playing the turbo version while the_falsehate, be_lakor, and myself are playing a slower, grindier, more resilient version. I think both have merit, and you know more about the turbo version than I do, and I wasn't really considering the idea of playing that version. I still think my Repeals and Noxious Revivals are worth it in my build, but I see why they might not be in yours.
Also, can someone explain some of the math you're doing to calculate the ideal number of lands and cheeri0s and what not?
It seems that we are going round in circles regarding the mana base and certain spells. Is the best possible solution that everyone sticks to their respective lists and tries to keep accurate logs of their match ups so that we can see statistically what the best win rates are.... Just a suggestion
On a separate note, someone mentioned the possibility of a ban on Mox Opal. Was this based on any fact or just hearsay?
Overall good to see such an interest in the deck!
Everyone loves an angry mob RWG
Why so Bloo? RU
Oath is a very different combo deck in a very different format, so we can't compare the two. Nor Elves because it has a combo route, a midrange plan, and an aggro plan all in the same deck. We're a dedicated engine combo that commits a whopping 32-34 slots to the combo (8 engines, 4 Retract, 18-20 equipment, 2 GS) and another 8 for cantrips. The remaining slots need to shore up that redundancy, not dilute it with tricks. 1 Noxious accomplishes that. 3-4 do not, especially on top of 3-4 Muddle/Repeal. That's just too much filler for an engine deck like ours, especially when we are using bad cantrips (Sleight, SV) compared to those available in other formats.
Things like this are never based in fact. Some of the various articles in the recent past that were focused on potential bannings have brought it up. The main one off the top of my head being Sam Black's article on SCG. I don't recall if he listed it as one he believed would improve the format or just one that he saw as a potential that was a sensible choice. He was approaching that card from a pure power level, considering it would also neuter the Lantern Control deck he likes to play. Banlist talk is off limits tho, so I'm not going to go further in depth than a quick explanation of where that comment came from
Nonetheless, here are my two cents:
There are a spectrum of possible decks, ranging from full combo to aggro. Aggro sacrifices speed and the possibility of fizzling for resilience in the form of multiple wincons. Full combo can also come in different varieties: combo with filtration, combo with protection, combo with nothing but the combo, etc. It is important to recognise what type of deck you are making, and what type of deck others are making, when analysing the lists in this thread. Every change you make to the deck effects your odds of drawing a dead hand, fizzling mid combo and your clock if paladin dies. Balancing these three criteria are key to deckbuilding this deck, and I suspect there will be no one "optimal" deck, rather a spectrum of possible decks each with slightly different strategies and tuned for specific metas.
When playtesting a new version of the deck, I always find it is preferable to start with a full undiluted combo version and, if that doesn't work, to add aggro or combo support cards. Once I dilute the combo too much, I know where the sweetspot of 'flex' cards are, and that gives me a based to build from. Analysing individual cards without determining the number of flex slots in your deck is, in my view, and exercise in randomness and won't allow you to determine if your deck is optimal or not.
That said, here's my thoughts:
1)Number of Paladins
This used to be a no-brainer: run all 4. With sram, the count can go up to 8. No decks have tested with 8 paladins, and it is possible that 8 is too many. Some lists above seem to have decided to above run less than 8. However, in my view, the starting point should be running the full 8 unless your playtesting tells you that 8 is too many. This is moreso a mathematical exercise: what are the odds of bricking by drawing too many srams? How much value does the extra couple of cards added by removing sram add as compared to running the full 8? Only once that exercise is done can there be meaningful discussion on this point. I certainly haven't done it yet. My gut feel is "run 8", but I could be wrong.
Card count:8
2)Number of Cheeri0s
I think it is more or less decided that 16 is default number, but is highly flexible. A more aggro deck requires less cheeri0s than a full combo deck, and the number is also influenced by the amount of filtration being run. 12 and 20 are probably the comfort bounds, so plus or minus 4 flex slots
Card count: 24 +-4
2)Retract and Repeal
Although many are adamant that 4-of-each are optimal, it is worth recognising that running less can be viable. The value of repeal, in particular, changes depending on what is being run with it. More mentors (storm entity, myth realized, etc) make repeal more valuable, whereas more cantrips make repeal less valuable. It is worth recognising that retract can be dead if you don't draw a paladin or other engine. I have had some success with decks running less than 4 retracts. Nonetheless, undiluted full combo will typically run all 8, but the number is flexible, though I would typically only adjust this after running out of flex slots elsewhere.
Card count: 32 +-8
3) lands +mox opal
You can play this deck on a budget without mox opal, but you will sacrifice speed and greatly increase your risks of fizzling as you can't cast multiple retracts. This means an aggro strategy is probably better than a combo strategy if you don't have moxes.
That said, including the 4 moxes, the deck will typically run 12-16 lands (16-20 mana sources).
Fetchlands are typically preferred since they get cards out of your deck and marginally reduce your odds of fizzling mid-combo. This means running shocklands. Typically, 2-3 hallowed fountain and 1 sacred foundry is sufficient, to give access to WW for paladin, once blue for retract/repeal, and one red for grapeshot. Redundant copies can be added in case of ghost quarter, and also because sometimes you can run out of fetch targets if only the bare minimum is run. You don't need to worry too much about red for grapeshot, that usually comes from moxes.
The advantage of fetchlands is not set in stone however, the lifeloss from shocks can be material, and the filtration advantage is typically marginal. Running fastlands, or any other modern-playble land, including painlands, glimmervoid, is viable.
Meta calls should also be made here- if your opponent has paths, ghost quarter, then you should run one or two basics. I typically like one plains, one island, if the meta demands it. Cavern of souls is also a good choice if counterspells are a thing. I find creature counters to be pretty rare, so I don't cavern for budget reasons, but your mileage may vary.
Count: 52 +-12
Wincon: Grapeshot
Can't forget a wincon. Dedicate at least one card, usually two in case of discard.
Count: 53 +-13
Flex slots: 7 +-13
This is where card choices belong- determine your number of flex slots and go from there. These slots will be filled up with aggro, protection or filtration/support cards.
my initial testing will be with a reduction in lands to, say 14, to up the flex slots, then test with a few copies of monastary mentor, a full set of sigarda's aid, and fill the remaining slots with cantrips, extra Cheeri0s, silence or one redundant retracts (recall or paradoxical outcome). The new Reverse Engineer could also be good?
4x Accorder's Shield
4x Cathar's Shield
4x Kite Shield
4x Mox Opal
4x Paradise Mantle
4x Spidersilk Net
4x Flooded Strand
4x Hallowed Fountain
3x Mana Confluence
1x Plains
1x Godless Shrine
2x Marsh Flats
4x Puresteel Paladin
4x Sram, Senior Edificer
Instant (8)
3x Noxious Revival
1x Plunge into Darkness
4x Retract
Sorcery (5)
4x Gitaxian Probe
1x Grapeshot
This is a bad idea. We should keep records and talk about what is good or bad in a specific matchup, but we'd need hundreds of matches, minimum, per list, to get any useful data. Add in the fact that we all have different skill levels and local metas and any win statistics become complete garbage.
tl;dr share specific info on what you played against, how you won or lost, and how you sideboarded, just plain win/loss stats are garbage.
Did you mean "...I don't like mainboard Repeals ..."? I'm not as enamoured with mainboard Repeals as many others on the prior forum were, but it is incredibly powerful. Based on my tournament experiences I would take 4 mainboard Repeal over 4 mainboard Noxious Revival for sure!
As far as Mentor goes, T1: Land, Ornithopter, Sigarda's Aid; T2: Land, Paradise Mantle (on Ornithopter), Mentor, Opal, Retract, Ornithopter, Mantle, Opal is hilarious if the Mentor sticks. I did that against Soul Sisters one time and took over before my opponent could get going. There are multiple scenarios where a T3 Mentor follows a T2 Pally with mana to spare. Having said that I'm not certain if Gavaleer or Mentor will be in my build until I complete a few hours of goldfishing with proxied playsets of Sram and Serum Powder. My heart wants a Combo/Aggro blend, but my mind wants data before deciding.
If you're wanting to playtest for "optimal", I recommend treating the Mana Confluence as Glimmervoid and increasing to a playset. You can always play with what you have, but this will give you an idea of how the upgrade would help.
I would still not play cantrips, and never play any Cheeri0s deck without the full playset of Noxious.
And comparing decks across formats is fine when we're looking at very fundamental elements of an archetype. We aren't comparing Oath's plan to ours, or the meta that Oath has to contend with to Burn and BG/x; we're comparing basic functionality. It has an engine, cards devoted to making that engine run, cards that the engine turns into wins, and it has elements that flow seamlessly into the engine to perform important side jobs. Almost every combo deck ever does. Noxious Revival does many, many things, and it does them while playing straight into our engine (manipulating the topdeck in a combo that uses draw power as fuel). 1 Noxious will not reliably be an anti-Bolt when you need it. 1-ofs and 2-ofs in this style of deck mean "I need this, but not until after I've drawn my deck". I need Noxious almost all the time.
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
I know where you post.
Smash, don't get me wrong, I was only messing around. More meant as a light hearted jest
I agree with Slax01, regarding waiting until full release of AER before formulating a decklist.
Everyone loves an angry mob RWG
Why so Bloo? RU
Maybe go for an online playtester? Less time spent shuffling, though some people play better with physical cards, especially with a deck like this.
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
I know where you post.