Just want to point out that Bob was considered a long time ago in this thread.... particularly in a few Esper builds. I think it wasn’t discussed too much more because no one posted any major benefits of including him. However, I would be intrigued to see people’s results.
I've been really happy with Bob so far. He is great in grindy matchups, and has unexpectedly won me matches vs RW prison and Lantern control. That being said, I really miss the silence slot. It's pretty necessary for the izzet phoenix matchup, because they are light on counters but heavy on removal. Most wins come from a turn 3/4 silence --> engine --> win. I really want to keep Bobs, but am working on finding space for silences too.
Stirrings gets lands and action, this gets only creatures. Even with 4 Birds, it's only 12 hits in the deck. Looks inappropriate in the current lists.
I agree with this completely. As neat as the card is, it's worse than serum visions, as it can't setup future turns. That being said, I might try to play it as a 1-of, as pseudo-engine #9, just to test. I could see many situations where it could be really useful.
I played for the first time in almost month last night, beating Humans, Living End and Tron before losing game 3 to Bant Spirits on the play to a mull to 5 with 2 lands, Retract, Equip & Serum Visions that didn't get there. I think against that deck on the play I might try siding in all 3 Claim to increase the range of keepable hands to include Fetch/Claim/Creature, skipping land drop and discarding creature T1. The only thing is I might have to wait on Claim, they could drop a Wanderer T1. Is this just reaching because I'm salty?
Claim was really good against Living End and against Humans I got to Echoing Truth 3 Meddling Mages (1 was a Phantasmal Image; don't target that with ET!) naming Retract, Path & Grapeshot and my opponent was like: Woops!!
I think you are just salty (but I completely understand). I lost to spirits in 3/4 matches at the grand prix, but am firmly in the camp that it is a great matchup for us. Their only interactions that are fast enough are 3 path to exile, and hierarch into spellqueller. Mosoleum wanderer has rarely ever been relevant against me. My losses to spirits at the grand prix were due to mulligans into oblivion, and fizzling after having three (!!) engines on the board, with 2 cheerios in hand. I am still 12-1 vs spirits on magic online. I think you just got really unlucky, and that claim is wholly unnecessary vs spirits. Post SB the biggest threat is Thalia, and it is most important to be sure that you have an answer to her.
Interesting. Doesn't look like it will replace claim/fame. The WW is much nicer, but CMC of 2 could be relevant and hampering at times. I've found often times casting an engine, getting it bolted, and casting claim to return it on the same turn is the best way to fight through removal, and 3 mana is much easier to come by than 4.
I have been interested in trying a "man-plan" though, where the deck switches from full combo to 3/4 combo, and adds cards like monestary mentor and geist. This card plays better with those 3cmc creatures that generate great value for us, which is something to consider.
Hey guys! I'm new to the deck,but I created a discord link that we could hopefully discuss updates on strategy/sideboarding/tech with in real time. https://discord.gg/FPNkpJh
CMC of 2 means it will be harder on the manabase to bait an engine for removal/counter and then revive
The black splash has bitten me a few times. And I am really really interested in adding Geist to the SB, as it really shores up removal heavy matchups (especially after sticking a shield on it). I do think the 2cmc will be relevant often, but I am still going to test it.
On another note, I've added 3 Swan Song MD, cutting 1 SV and 2 Repeal, running 15 land again. I've been really impressed with it so far, but also MTGO has been infested with burn decks of late. And I mean really infested. Last league I played in I faced 5 different burn pilots, and wound up 3-2 mostly on the back of swan song. We thwomp non-interactive decks regardless, so I haven't noticed cutting the SV or repeals much. Especially with the rise of UR phoenix decks, waiting until turn 3 to drop a Sram with Swansong protection has shifted that matchup to favorable.
I also think Swan Song helps with the #1 problem of this deck, which is that it's much stronger game 1 when the opponent doesn;t know what you're doing. When they are not under pressure and choose to tap out on turn 2/3 even if they have removal in hand, it generates free wins for us. If we manage to get to the high tables later in a big tournament, everyone will know our deck, and we lose that advantage. Swan Song helps to retain the advantage by punishing them for holding up mana. So far I've been really happy with it, but will keep testing, and post my findings.
CMC of 2 means it will be harder on the manabase to bait an engine for removal/counter and then revive
The black splash has bitten me a few times. And I am really really interested in adding Geist to the SB, as it really shores up removal heavy matchups (especially after sticking a shield on it). I do think the 2cmc will be relevant often, but I am still going to test it.
On another note, I've added 3 Swan Song MD, cutting 1 SV and 2 Repeal, running 15 land again. I've been really impressed with it so far, but also MTGO has been infested with burn decks of late. And I mean really infested. Last league I played in I faced 5 different burn pilots, and wound up 3-2 mostly on the back of swan song. We thwomp non-interactive decks regardless, so I haven't noticed cutting the SV or repeals much. Especially with the rise of UR phoenix decks, waiting until turn 3 to drop a Sram with Swansong protection has shifted that matchup to favorable.
I also think Swan Song helps with the #1 problem of this deck, which is that it's much stronger game 1 when the opponent doesn;t know what you're doing. When they are not under pressure and choose to tap out on turn 2/3 even if they have removal in hand, it generates free wins for us. If we manage to get to the high tables later in a big tournament, everyone will know our deck, and we lose that advantage. Swan Song helps to retain the advantage by punishing them for holding up mana. So far I've been really happy with it, but will keep testing, and post my findings.
Are you on 2 Serum Visions then? Is Invisible too slow, even with all the equipment? That one works with Claim // Fame
Hey I know everyone is like all in on the combo and that but I've been testing a singleton Sai, Master Thopterist in the maindeck and its so good in games where you get disrupted or can't find a combo piece. It gives the deck so much staying power. I'm probably going to try something a bit different from now on, not as focused on comboing but still very much capable of it.
He was especially good against humans, turning games that would've been a loss into wins
Its pretty relevant because you want to go over clogged boards (it happens a lot against humans)
Edit: Its obviously not the only point in favor of Sai... being a 1/4 makes him a better blocker, and you can also draw cards from his ability after blocking with thopters
Hello everyone! Wait no... That seems so underwhelming. Let me try again...
Cheerio!
Ahhhhhh so much better. I haven't posted much since I created this account and for that I am truly sorry. Puresteel Paladin will always be my first love in Modern and you never forget your first (although sometimes I wish I could... I hope you're doing well Bobbi-Jean Joe!)
I got a few quick asides and then I'm gonna link you guys to a tool I've used for the past couple years when evaluating this deck specifically.
1.) I scanned the last several pages and see people talking about having to aggressively mulligan to find more than one land etc. and I also read someone say they trimmed down to ONE Noxious Revival main deck. I don't want this post to get too wordy, but to me Noxious Revival is in the deck first and foremost for it's ability to get you that second land. Turn 1 Fetch, Turn 2 upkeep (gotta add to Storm Count amiright?) Revival to put Fetch on top, Fetch BOOM! Second Land. I would never go below 2 personally, but I always find myself trying to find room for a 3rd (for reference I tend to count Revivals as half a land in any calculations along with Mox Opal).
2.) I'm glad to see people finally realized the Bird was indeed NOT the word and allowed it to flap back to the bulk Dominaria boxes.
3.) Claim // Fame auto include in the board?
4.) Shout out to the guy who linked to my post about me explaining the 'Raw Dog Kill'! I once ran 4 Grapeshots in the 75 as my plan against Jund opponents. It wasn't pretty, but it worked. Made the local Affinity players switch to Vs. for a few months too
It is a quick program I got a buddy to help me write up. After years of playing the deck (pre-Sram, RIP Serum Powders) I was looking for something better to look at changes/numbers in the deck without having to break out the calculator and google 'hyper-geometric calculator'. It's fairly simple, but brutally efficient (as long as you don't do too many simulations at a time).
Pretty much it builds a 60 deck based on the numbers provided (manually adjustable) and runs simulations looking for whatever 'God Hand' you set. It does this by randomly building the deck 1 card at a time until it contains 60 cards then shuffles (very important btw we couldn't figure out why the percents kept messing up and realized it wasn't truly randomizing each time) and compares whatever the X amount of the top cards of the deck you want to the 'God Hand' you set. Right now if you execute it will show you what the odds of your opening hand (topdeck = 7) containing 2 Lands and a Sram or Paladin (needhand = [2, 2, 1]) is.
UW control / Jeskai
+3 Silence
+2 Ghirapur Aether-Grid
+2 Echoing Truth
-1 Hurkyl's Recall
-2 Sigil of Distinction
-2 Serum Visions/Swan Song
-1 Paradise Mantle
-1 Noxious Revival
G tron / Valakut
+2 Echoing Truth
-1 Serum Visions
-1 Hurkyl's Recall
Prison
+2 Ghirapur Aether-Grid
+2 Echoing Truth
+3 Silence
-2 Sigil of Distinction
-3 Serum Visions/Swan Song
-1 Paradise Mantle
-1 Noxious Revival
Hardened Scales
+2 Echoing Truth
-2 Serum Visions/Swan Song/Noxious Revival
Affinity
+2 Echoing Truth
+2 Ghirapur Aether-Grid
-2 Serum Visions/Swan Song
-1 Sigil of Distinction
-1 Paradise Mantle
Infect / Boggles
+2 Echoing Truth
-1 Serum Visions
-1 Sigil of Distinction
Some things you can see I haven't decided on 100%. I am also still unsold on the swan songs, but will leave them in for now. I think swansong will win a lot more games than SV will, especially since our #1 weakness is bolt and thoughtseize.
You cut serum visions a lot. I personally would never cut one in any matchup. They help us find sideboard cards or our engines. I'd trim more equipment before trimming SV.
Instead of SV we also could use Incubation // Incongruity to find an engine. has anyone thought about it? it digs a bit deeper and also only requires blue.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
My decks:
Competetive: Lantern Control, MonoR Phoenix, Dredge
Meta-Dependant: Modern Cheeri0s, Esper Spirits, Wilderness Teachings , Modern Elves, All-in Death's Shadow, Aristocrats, BW Death&Taxes
Fun own projects: Spireside Industries, UB Scrapyard, Thundercat Worship, Dirty Kitten, RB Rock, Eternal Toolbox
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I've been really happy with Bob so far. He is great in grindy matchups, and has unexpectedly won me matches vs RW prison and Lantern control. That being said, I really miss the silence slot. It's pretty necessary for the izzet phoenix matchup, because they are light on counters but heavy on removal. Most wins come from a turn 3/4 silence --> engine --> win. I really want to keep Bobs, but am working on finding space for silences too.
I agree with this completely. As neat as the card is, it's worse than serum visions, as it can't setup future turns. That being said, I might try to play it as a 1-of, as pseudo-engine #9, just to test. I could see many situations where it could be really useful.
I think you are just salty (but I completely understand). I lost to spirits in 3/4 matches at the grand prix, but am firmly in the camp that it is a great matchup for us. Their only interactions that are fast enough are 3 path to exile, and hierarch into spellqueller. Mosoleum wanderer has rarely ever been relevant against me. My losses to spirits at the grand prix were due to mulligans into oblivion, and fizzling after having three (!!) engines on the board, with 2 cheerios in hand. I am still 12-1 vs spirits on magic online. I think you just got really unlucky, and that claim is wholly unnecessary vs spirits. Post SB the biggest threat is Thalia, and it is most important to be sure that you have an answer to her.
Double white!
Interesting. Doesn't look like it will replace claim/fame. The WW is much nicer, but CMC of 2 could be relevant and hampering at times. I've found often times casting an engine, getting it bolted, and casting claim to return it on the same turn is the best way to fight through removal, and 3 mana is much easier to come by than 4.
I have been interested in trying a "man-plan" though, where the deck switches from full combo to 3/4 combo, and adds cards like monestary mentor and geist. This card plays better with those 3cmc creatures that generate great value for us, which is something to consider.
likely too niche for us, but still
Everyone loves an angry mob RWG
Why so Bloo? RU
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https://discord.gg/FPNkpJh
I don't think the list will change much with the new set. The only change I would consider is revival/revenge over claim/fame.
Pros of Revival over Claim
Cons of Revival over Claim
The black splash has bitten me a few times. And I am really really interested in adding Geist to the SB, as it really shores up removal heavy matchups (especially after sticking a shield on it). I do think the 2cmc will be relevant often, but I am still going to test it.
On another note, I've added 3 Swan Song MD, cutting 1 SV and 2 Repeal, running 15 land again. I've been really impressed with it so far, but also MTGO has been infested with burn decks of late. And I mean really infested. Last league I played in I faced 5 different burn pilots, and wound up 3-2 mostly on the back of swan song. We thwomp non-interactive decks regardless, so I haven't noticed cutting the SV or repeals much. Especially with the rise of UR phoenix decks, waiting until turn 3 to drop a Sram with Swansong protection has shifted that matchup to favorable.
I also think Swan Song helps with the #1 problem of this deck, which is that it's much stronger game 1 when the opponent doesn;t know what you're doing. When they are not under pressure and choose to tap out on turn 2/3 even if they have removal in hand, it generates free wins for us. If we manage to get to the high tables later in a big tournament, everyone will know our deck, and we lose that advantage. Swan Song helps to retain the advantage by punishing them for holding up mana. So far I've been really happy with it, but will keep testing, and post my findings.
Are you on 2 Serum Visions then? Is Invisible too slow, even with all the equipment? That one works with Claim // Fame
I'm on 3 SV as of now. Here's my most recent list:
4 Cathar's Shield
3 Flooded Strand
1 Godless Shrine
1 Grapeshot
2 Hallowed Fountain
1 Hurkyl's Recall
4 Mox Opal
1 Noxious Revival
4 Paradise Mantle
2 Plains
4 Puresteel Paladin
4 Retract
1 Sacred Foundry
2 Seachrome Coast
3 Serum Visions
4 Sigil of Distinction
4 Spidersilk Net
4 Sram, Senior Edificer
3 Swan Song
4 Windswept Heath
3 Claim/Fame
2 Echoing Truth
2 Ghirapur Aether Grid
3 Path to Exile
3 Silence
And what is Invisible? Invisible Stalker?
He was especially good against humans, turning games that would've been a loss into wins
Oh and I might try to update the deck a bit. With Claim/Fame and Revival/Revenge we got some new toys and ways to play the deck.
Competetive: Lantern Control, MonoR Phoenix, Dredge
Meta-Dependant: Modern Cheeri0s, Esper Spirits, Wilderness Teachings , Modern Elves, All-in Death's Shadow, Aristocrats, BW Death&Taxes
Fun own projects: Spireside Industries, UB Scrapyard, Thundercat Worship, Dirty Kitten, RB Rock, Eternal Toolbox
Edit: Its obviously not the only point in favor of Sai... being a 1/4 makes him a better blocker, and you can also draw cards from his ability after blocking with thopters
Cheerio!
Ahhhhhh so much better. I haven't posted much since I created this account and for that I am truly sorry. Puresteel Paladin will always be my first love in Modern and you never forget your first (although sometimes I wish I could... I hope you're doing well Bobbi-Jean Joe!)
I got a few quick asides and then I'm gonna link you guys to a tool I've used for the past couple years when evaluating this deck specifically.
1.) I scanned the last several pages and see people talking about having to aggressively mulligan to find more than one land etc. and I also read someone say they trimmed down to ONE Noxious Revival main deck. I don't want this post to get too wordy, but to me Noxious Revival is in the deck first and foremost for it's ability to get you that second land. Turn 1 Fetch, Turn 2 upkeep (gotta add to Storm Count amiright?) Revival to put Fetch on top, Fetch BOOM! Second Land. I would never go below 2 personally, but I always find myself trying to find room for a 3rd (for reference I tend to count Revivals as half a land in any calculations along with Mox Opal).
2.) I'm glad to see people finally realized the Bird was indeed NOT the word and allowed it to flap back to the bulk Dominaria boxes.
3.) Claim // Fame auto include in the board?
4.) Shout out to the guy who linked to my post about me explaining the 'Raw Dog Kill'! I once ran 4 Grapeshots in the 75 as my plan against Jund opponents. It wasn't pretty, but it worked. Made the local Affinity players switch to Vs. for a few months too
Okay, okay here is what I logged in to share:
http://tpcg.io/9SJ3mc
It is a quick program I got a buddy to help me write up. After years of playing the deck (pre-Sram, RIP Serum Powders) I was looking for something better to look at changes/numbers in the deck without having to break out the calculator and google 'hyper-geometric calculator'. It's fairly simple, but brutally efficient (as long as you don't do too many simulations at a time).
Pretty much it builds a 60 deck based on the numbers provided (manually adjustable) and runs simulations looking for whatever 'God Hand' you set. It does this by randomly building the deck 1 card at a time until it contains 60 cards then shuffles (very important btw we couldn't figure out why the percents kept messing up and realized it wasn't truly randomizing each time) and compares whatever the X amount of the top cards of the deck you want to the 'God Hand' you set. Right now if you execute it will show you what the odds of your opening hand (topdeck = 7) containing 2 Lands and a Sram or Paladin (needhand = [2, 2, 1]) is.
Enjoy, friends.
marit Could You post a quick sideboard guide? Meaning What do you side out against burn, jeskai control, GDS and what you side in?
Phoenix
+3 Silence
+2 Echoing Truth
-1 Hurkyl's Recall
-2 Sigil of Distinction
-1 Serum Visions/Swan Song
-1 Paradise Mantle
GDS /Jund / Rock / JDS
+2 Ghirapur Aether Grid
+3 Claim/Fame
+2 Echoing Truth
-1 Hurkyl's Recall
-2 Sigil of Distinction
-2 Serum Visions/Swan Song
-1 Paradise Mantle
-1 Noxious Revival
Burn
+3 Path to Exile
+2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
-1 Hurkyl's Recall
-2 Sigil of Distinction
-1 Serum Visions
-1 Paradise Mantle
Dredge
+2 Echoing Truth
-2 Serum Visions/Swan Song
Spirits
+3 Path to Exile
+2 Echoing Truth
-1 Hurkyl's Recall
-2 Swan Song/Serum Visions
-1 Sigil of Distinction
-1 Paradise Mantle
Humans
+3 Path to Exile
+2 Echoing Truth
+2 Ghirapur Aether-Grid
-3 Swan Song
-1 Hurkyl's Recall
-1 Serum Visions
-1 Sigil of Distinction
-1 Paradise Mantle
Amulet Titan
+2 Echoing Truth
-2 Serum Visions/Swan Song/Noxious Revival
Storm
+2 Echoing Truth
+3 Silence
-1 Hurkyl's Recall
-1 Serum Visions
-1 Sigil of Distinction
-1 Noxious Revival
-1 Paradise Mantle
UW control / Jeskai
+3 Silence
+2 Ghirapur Aether-Grid
+2 Echoing Truth
-1 Hurkyl's Recall
-2 Sigil of Distinction
-2 Serum Visions/Swan Song
-1 Paradise Mantle
-1 Noxious Revival
G tron / Valakut
+2 Echoing Truth
-1 Serum Visions
-1 Hurkyl's Recall
Prison
+2 Ghirapur Aether-Grid
+2 Echoing Truth
+3 Silence
-2 Sigil of Distinction
-3 Serum Visions/Swan Song
-1 Paradise Mantle
-1 Noxious Revival
Hardened Scales
+2 Echoing Truth
-2 Serum Visions/Swan Song/Noxious Revival
Affinity
+2 Echoing Truth
+2 Ghirapur Aether-Grid
-2 Serum Visions/Swan Song
-1 Sigil of Distinction
-1 Paradise Mantle
Infect / Boggles
+2 Echoing Truth
-1 Serum Visions
-1 Sigil of Distinction
Some things you can see I haven't decided on 100%. I am also still unsold on the swan songs, but will leave them in for now. I think swansong will win a lot more games than SV will, especially since our #1 weakness is bolt and thoughtseize.
Competetive: Lantern Control, MonoR Phoenix, Dredge
Meta-Dependant: Modern Cheeri0s, Esper Spirits, Wilderness Teachings , Modern Elves, All-in Death's Shadow, Aristocrats, BW Death&Taxes
Fun own projects: Spireside Industries, UB Scrapyard, Thundercat Worship, Dirty Kitten, RB Rock, Eternal Toolbox