I was suggesting alternatives to Bedevil that you mentioned you were considering. I think unmaking or GG could be better as BBR is alot harder to have then wb or just w and they are less restrictive in what they can handle. 3cmc removal is not ideal but it works when there isn't a better option. I run 2 dspheres and a maelstrom in my list personally.
As hot as the Mardu Blue list looks, I am still ever so wary of not running green for cards like Abrupt Decay and Assassin's Trophy. You have no outs to a resolved Bloodmoon. That has to feel pretty bad.
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LEGACY|UWStonebladeCOMMANDER|UBGThe Mimeoplsm Ooze & Aghhs!MODERN|UWAzorius Control THE JUICE[BOX]³ CUBE
I'll admit I was surprised how much adding green to esper alleviates the issue of blood moon, the removal suite is nice but a Caryatid or BoP goes along ways to ignoring blood moons.
Looking for feedback- I'm looking at Dropping my Loam/Crime from the SB. So before I do, what other match ups do you normally look towards loam/crime for? As I've understood the package its almost exclusively for control matches. I have found Thrunn to be the stronger SB card for the matchup as it lets me really pressure control without giving them a near infinite amount of time to find an out, at worst they have to find the answer in 5 turns which has to be something like terminus.
some cards that caught my interest- chart a course- really wish it was instant but its flexible letting you draw 2 or draw 2 discard 1 depending if you actually want to draw cards. Kambal, Consul of Allocation in the board- it's a great storm hoser I guess.
4x Leyline of the Void- that's where we are folks we have to run all the grave hate....
The deck is heavy on walkers with a total of 6 straight walkers and 2 jace vp for a total of 8 walkers in the main.
I have toyed with a similar approach about 3 weeks ago, the list looks somewhat like this: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/2137915#paper. The main goal was to stay within the usual disruptive shell instead of branching out into some control hybrid with counters, hence the full 4 LotV and quite some discard. In my limited testing, concerning creature-heavy matchups, the list is far superior to the 4C version and less clunky (or versatile, depending on what you want to call it), given you run Urborg, there is also room for 3 utility lands in the form of Field of Ruin. Not sure yet whether I want Kaya's Guile as a 2-of or 1-of, it can be a little slow for 3 mana, it complements the edict effects of LotV pretty well though.
Regarding your comment of cutting the Loam/Crime package I would say it boils down to a meta choice. I have for a long time played it mainboard and it still is there in the current 4C version I play. It is pretty key against UWx and Sultai Reclamation, otherwise these decks take over at some point in the game, recurring manlands and Tec Edge is also a thing to consider against those archetypes. Occasionally Crime gets rid off a creature in your own hand which would have either cost you life or wouldn't be possible at all. Then again, I haven't tried Thrun so far, but "find the answer in 5 turns" sounds like a lot of time for control decks, Wrath of God, Settle or Damnation also do the trick besides Terminus.
Last night I ran Kaya's guile as a 1 of in my list, I didn't get much testing as the only time I saw it was my match against esper control who was running there's as a 4 of. I agree its slow but the versatility is strong enough that a 2 of in a list with lotv should be doable. I think right now if you're going into an unknown meta and have flex slots in the board Kaya's guile should be the fillers fyi.
Concerning Loam/Crime- we're currently in a meta that is grave hate centric so Loam/crime is pretty easily interrupted. Its not all that cost efficient- 1GBB +/- B to discard a couple cards is not great rate. It doesn't prevent them from drawing and playing cards on their turn but every time you dredge loam you're not drawing a new card so you fall behind in virtual card advantage (the mill may recover some of it though). Loaming a GQ/Field has a similar drawback. For the first few turns you don't go up in lands and can very well end up falling behind in lands on top of not drawing new cards. The only way I can see this lock as being strong enough to reliably turn the tide in a control match would be with 3feri - then you could effectively prevent them from drawing another card the rest of the game. but there is not a way to Gifts Pile that and resolving 3feri followed by gifts seems like a tall order for a control match.
Thrunn- yes the listed cards are outs to Thrunn, but in a control match they are unlikely to keep or bring in more wraths and generally will actively side those cards out depending on the build of course. And that's 5 turns to draw a 1 or 2 of in their 75 so not that likely. I do worry that if control decks start running several kaya's guile that could be an issue for him, but hopefully caryatids and souls can be sac fodder to let him do his work.
I will continue testing Kaya's Guile as a 2-of, maybe go one higher to increase the rate at which I draw them.
Supposedly Hogaak gets the axe during the next announcement, which can be a chance for other graveyard strategies to thrive after the hate has settled a little. This always was the case with the rise and decline of Dredge, at least one can hope. But I agree, Loam/Crime is pretty slow and cost intensive, after the Gifts pile it take Dredge 3 + 1GB (+ BB) as you said, the heavy black requirements are usually met by an Urborg thrown into the pile. We can draw cards eventually while holding back lands, going for the full 3 every turn is not always correct nor necessary. Against UWx and Sultai control builds it has frequently won me the game, although cards with flash or good topdecks can be a problem, especially when it's not paired with any sort of pressure from our side. I tried to come up with a hardlock using T3feri, but 1WU paired with G and the heavy black requirements in builds with Loam/Crime have made me let go of the idea, although very appealing in paper.
I might try Thrun in the sideboard, but the GG gives me a headache at first. I already need to meet BB on turn 3 for LotV, UU on turn 4 for JtMS, so we will see. I might resort to Esper if the 4C mana base increasingly becomes a liability.
Yeah all those color requirements are hard. I help my reliability by limiting my double color requirements and leaning heavily on caryatid. Games without them (caryatid) are noticeably harder.
That's why I lean on blue and black, respectively. Green (somewhat) and even more so white are splash colours, which is why I am a little hesitant of increasing the mana requirements even further, although a single card like Thrun or JtMS shouldn't do much harm (and he's quite good, frankly), especially since I haven't seen Blood Moon, Spreading Seas or Field of Ruin in a while now, the latter being the least problematic anyway. In purely Esper I feel that one might get away with double costs in all three colours eventually, the card draw coming from Narset seems so appealing.
Have you tried Kalitas? Every time he comes up during gameplay I end up being more convinced, recently letting me get rid off Voice of Resurgence and Glen Elendra Archmage the cleanest way possible using Decay and Trophy. He closes out games incredibly fast, helps with gaining life and has a disruptive element against graveyard synergies.
I have not, main deck is where I would want him the most but I aim to blank removal with only running caryatid tokens reanimation targets and 1 snapcaster 1 champion of wits. As Gravehate Kayas guile and Nihil come down faster which when siding in is really important.
It felt a little unusual but fine apart from some details. Growth Spiral is quite good at providing ramp for Gifts on turn 3, the only issue was discarding creatures if one happens to draw them naturally, Radical Idea can be a little slow at times and JtMS can only put them on top to shuffle them away before casting Gifts, so there's some room for improvement. The deck is a little light on interaction, the BUGw build has more Trophies and Pulse in place of Growth Spiral, discard instead of Opt and Spell Pierce. Overgrown Tomb is a little awkward as well, maybe this should be another basic (Island?), I did not include a Swamp due to the heavy U requirements. Terminus did not come up in the games at all, but I can see including a different sweeper package instead of Azcanta and 4x Terminus, running 3x Narset and 2x Supreme Verdicts, eventually replacing a JtMS by a Wrath of God. The mana was mostly fine, although Godless Shrine in the opener is somewhat clunky, I managed to enable Logic Knot and Cryptic on a reliable basis (Frank Karsten's article suggests 89% confidence of casting both on curve given the land base I run).
T3feri is pretty great as a tempo play and with the Unburial package, we can hold up interaction and reanimate end of turn with Spell Pierce or even Logic Knot up some of the time. Traditional sweepers at instant speed sound pretty sweet, too. I tried Collective Brutality in the slot of Radical Idea, which is comparable in clunkiness but adds some value on top of the looting effect, Lingering Souls are greatly missed in this build though. Compared to my traditional list, this version is a little more straightforward without the vast amount of versatility Loam/Academy Ruins/EE/Bridge/Crime and the plethora of different removal spells give. Comments, questions, suggestions?
Faithless and hogaak banned, sfm unbanned. Thoughts?
Today was a good day. I expect the overall meta to slow down a little, giving us more breathing space and possibilities to interact meaningfully. If the meta settles towards a more fair environment, graveyard hate should get significantly reduced among main- and sideboards, which makes our lives less miserable as well. Unfortunately, I feel like the moist Mardu Gifts list is obsolete without Looting, it looked promising.
With the assumption that graveyard hate is going to be dialed back considerably, we may have a shot at competitive once again. Stoneforge unban means people will likely play slower in general. I predict Jund and Tron to be top tier, with possible Esper Urza close behind.
My question to you fellas is: do we adopt the SFM package as well?
I also fear that the B&R announcement leads to a rise in G Tron, Jund I do not mind nearly as much. I can't say anything about Grixis/Esper Urza as I haven't played the matchup a single time but I could imagine that Elesh Norn, Academy Ruins/EE together with Decay/Trophy and heavy discard is pretty good against the archetype, paired with Surgicals and Stony Silence from the board the matchup should be feasible. Any experience from you guys?
I do not plan to include the Stoneforge package, the plan is somewhat different I feel. Janking out a win due to a turn 3 Batterskull might be possible at times but I'd rather prefer the attrition route we followed so far. I have ever since kept a Batterskull in my board for grindy attrition games such as Jund or Abzan, Academy Ruins and Loam add some inevitability against K-Command and the likes while Lingering Souls carry the equipment excellently. Regarding the Thopter/Sword combo in Gifts, I tried a Dark Jeskai list a year and a half ago, Izzet Charm feld pretty great in the deck and Desolate Lighthouse made a good impression as a utility land, however I agree that Urza is the guy for these kinds of shenanigans now.
We can spec to beat tron. It's no secret that I'm a big fan of the Fulminator / Sun Titan plan in the main board.
Izzet charm is an interesting idea if I continue to push those colors (WBUR). I guess a Grixis variant with a white splash could have some merit
4c Gifts Deck Stats: https://bit.ly/2XMPrlY
https://pucatrade.com/invite/gift/120495
THE JUICE[BOX]³ CUBE
4c Gifts Deck Stats: https://bit.ly/2XMPrlY
https://pucatrade.com/invite/gift/120495
4c Gifts Deck Stats: https://bit.ly/2XMPrlY
https://pucatrade.com/invite/gift/120495
https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/modern-league-2019-08-16#dabiggestb_-
2x Creeping Tar Pit
2x Field of Ruin
4x Flooded Strand
1x Godless Shrine
2x Hallowed Fountain
2x Island
1x Plains
4x Polluted Delta
2x Shambling Vent
2x Swamp
2x Watery Grave
Planeswalker (6)
2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2x Narset, Parter of Veils
2x Teferi, Time Raveler
Sorcery (15)
2x Chart a Course
2x Collective Brutality
1x Damnation
2x Inquisition of Kozilek
3x Lingering Souls
1x Supreme Verdict
3x Thoughtseize
1x Unburial Rites
2x Fatal Push
3x Gifts Ungiven
1x Kaya's Guile
3x Path to Exile
Creature (6)
1x Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1x Iona, Shield of Emeria
2x Jace, Vryn's Prodigy Flip
2x Snapcaster Mage
1x Anguished Unmaking
1x Ceremonious Rejection
2x Damping Sphere
2x Dovin's Veto
1x Kambal, Consul of Allocation
4x Leyline of the Void
2x Stony Silence
2x Unmoored Ego
some cards that caught my interest-
chart a course- really wish it was instant but its flexible letting you draw 2 or draw 2 discard 1 depending if you actually want to draw cards.
Kambal, Consul of Allocation in the board- it's a great storm hoser I guess.
4x Leyline of the Void- that's where we are folks we have to run all the grave hate....
The deck is heavy on walkers with a total of 6 straight walkers and 2 jace vp for a total of 8 walkers in the main.
4c Gifts Deck Stats: https://bit.ly/2XMPrlY
https://pucatrade.com/invite/gift/120495
Regarding your comment of cutting the Loam/Crime package I would say it boils down to a meta choice. I have for a long time played it mainboard and it still is there in the current 4C version I play. It is pretty key against UWx and Sultai Reclamation, otherwise these decks take over at some point in the game, recurring manlands and Tec Edge is also a thing to consider against those archetypes. Occasionally Crime gets rid off a creature in your own hand which would have either cost you life or wouldn't be possible at all. Then again, I haven't tried Thrun so far, but "find the answer in 5 turns" sounds like a lot of time for control decks, Wrath of God, Settle or Damnation also do the trick besides Terminus.
Concerning Loam/Crime- we're currently in a meta that is grave hate centric so Loam/crime is pretty easily interrupted. Its not all that cost efficient- 1GBB +/- B to discard a couple cards is not great rate. It doesn't prevent them from drawing and playing cards on their turn but every time you dredge loam you're not drawing a new card so you fall behind in virtual card advantage (the mill may recover some of it though). Loaming a GQ/Field has a similar drawback. For the first few turns you don't go up in lands and can very well end up falling behind in lands on top of not drawing new cards. The only way I can see this lock as being strong enough to reliably turn the tide in a control match would be with 3feri - then you could effectively prevent them from drawing another card the rest of the game. but there is not a way to Gifts Pile that and resolving 3feri followed by gifts seems like a tall order for a control match.
Thrunn- yes the listed cards are outs to Thrunn, but in a control match they are unlikely to keep or bring in more wraths and generally will actively side those cards out depending on the build of course. And that's 5 turns to draw a 1 or 2 of in their 75 so not that likely. I do worry that if control decks start running several kaya's guile that could be an issue for him, but hopefully caryatids and souls can be sac fodder to let him do his work.
4c Gifts Deck Stats: https://bit.ly/2XMPrlY
https://pucatrade.com/invite/gift/120495
Supposedly Hogaak gets the axe during the next announcement, which can be a chance for other graveyard strategies to thrive after the hate has settled a little. This always was the case with the rise and decline of Dredge, at least one can hope. But I agree, Loam/Crime is pretty slow and cost intensive, after the Gifts pile it take Dredge 3 + 1GB (+ BB) as you said, the heavy black requirements are usually met by an Urborg thrown into the pile. We can draw cards eventually while holding back lands, going for the full 3 every turn is not always correct nor necessary. Against UWx and Sultai control builds it has frequently won me the game, although cards with flash or good topdecks can be a problem, especially when it's not paired with any sort of pressure from our side. I tried to come up with a hardlock using T3feri, but 1WU paired with G and the heavy black requirements in builds with Loam/Crime have made me let go of the idea, although very appealing in paper.
I might try Thrun in the sideboard, but the GG gives me a headache at first. I already need to meet BB on turn 3 for LotV, UU on turn 4 for JtMS, so we will see. I might resort to Esper if the 4C mana base increasingly becomes a liability.
4c Gifts Deck Stats: https://bit.ly/2XMPrlY
https://pucatrade.com/invite/gift/120495
Have you tried Kalitas? Every time he comes up during gameplay I end up being more convinced, recently letting me get rid off Voice of Resurgence and Glen Elendra Archmage the cleanest way possible using Decay and Trophy. He closes out games incredibly fast, helps with gaining life and has a disruptive element against graveyard synergies.
4c Gifts Deck Stats: https://bit.ly/2XMPrlY
https://pucatrade.com/invite/gift/120495
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
Enchantment
1 Search for Azcanta
Land (23)
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Temple Garden
1 Watery Grave
1 Godless Shrine
1 Breeding Pool
2 Hallowed Fountain
1 Forest
2 Marsh Flats
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Plains
1 Celestial Colonnade
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Island
1 Hinterland Harbor
3 Gifts Ungiven
2 Logic Knot
1 Cryptic Command
3 Path to Exile
2 Spell Pierce
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Pulse of Murasa
4 Opt
1 Radical Idea
1 Assassin's Trophy
3 Growth Spiral
Sorcery
1 Unburial Rites
4 Terminus
Planeswalker
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Teferi, Time Raveler
2 Stony Silence
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Damping Sphere
1 Extirpate
2 Celestial Purge
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Pulse of Murasa
2 Dovin's Veto
2 Timely Reinforcements
It felt a little unusual but fine apart from some details. Growth Spiral is quite good at providing ramp for Gifts on turn 3, the only issue was discarding creatures if one happens to draw them naturally, Radical Idea can be a little slow at times and JtMS can only put them on top to shuffle them away before casting Gifts, so there's some room for improvement. The deck is a little light on interaction, the BUGw build has more Trophies and Pulse in place of Growth Spiral, discard instead of Opt and Spell Pierce. Overgrown Tomb is a little awkward as well, maybe this should be another basic (Island?), I did not include a Swamp due to the heavy U requirements. Terminus did not come up in the games at all, but I can see including a different sweeper package instead of Azcanta and 4x Terminus, running 3x Narset and 2x Supreme Verdicts, eventually replacing a JtMS by a Wrath of God. The mana was mostly fine, although Godless Shrine in the opener is somewhat clunky, I managed to enable Logic Knot and Cryptic on a reliable basis (Frank Karsten's article suggests 89% confidence of casting both on curve given the land base I run).
T3feri is pretty great as a tempo play and with the Unburial package, we can hold up interaction and reanimate end of turn with Spell Pierce or even Logic Knot up some of the time. Traditional sweepers at instant speed sound pretty sweet, too. I tried Collective Brutality in the slot of Radical Idea, which is comparable in clunkiness but adds some value on top of the looting effect, Lingering Souls are greatly missed in this build though. Compared to my traditional list, this version is a little more straightforward without the vast amount of versatility Loam/Academy Ruins/EE/Bridge/Crime and the plethora of different removal spells give. Comments, questions, suggestions?
4c Gifts Deck Stats: https://bit.ly/2XMPrlY
https://pucatrade.com/invite/gift/120495
4c Gifts Deck Stats: https://bit.ly/2XMPrlY
https://pucatrade.com/invite/gift/120495
My question to you fellas is: do we adopt the SFM package as well?
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
Spells
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
4 Gifts ungiven
2 Fatal Push
2 Assassin's Trophy
2 Path to exile
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Unburial Rites
1 Unearth
1 Chart a Course
1 Kaya's Guile
3 Lingering Souls
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
23 lands
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Sun Titan
2 Fulminator Mage
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Monastery Mentor
1 Jace, Vryn's prodigy
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Life from the Loam
1 Raven's Crime
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Linvala, Keeper of Silence
2 Collective Brutality
I can't help but feel that the Artifact package simply isn't worth it. But I guess only time will tell
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At that point it really just makes more sense to use Urza as your 4-mana spell, seeing as he goes infinite with Thopter + sword
The loss of Looting is crippling for moist Mardu, but I haven't given up on seasoned Pyromancer just yet
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I do not plan to include the Stoneforge package, the plan is somewhat different I feel. Janking out a win due to a turn 3 Batterskull might be possible at times but I'd rather prefer the attrition route we followed so far. I have ever since kept a Batterskull in my board for grindy attrition games such as Jund or Abzan, Academy Ruins and Loam add some inevitability against K-Command and the likes while Lingering Souls carry the equipment excellently. Regarding the Thopter/Sword combo in Gifts, I tried a Dark Jeskai list a year and a half ago, Izzet Charm feld pretty great in the deck and Desolate Lighthouse made a good impression as a utility land, however I agree that Urza is the guy for these kinds of shenanigans now.
Izzet charm is an interesting idea if I continue to push those colors (WBUR). I guess a Grixis variant with a white splash could have some merit
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