Congratulations on taking down your FNM! I have to admit, your build looks quite wild, I haven't seen Gideon, Sultai Charm, Sigarda or BtL in a long time, let alone successful. Any comments on these particular choices, I suppose they are tailored towards your local meta. Izzet Tempo means something along the lines of Thing/Fiend/Drakes I guess? I have found Humans to be a tricky matchup, heavily depending on their pace and, especially if they know what you're playing, their amount of disruption in Freebooter/Meddling Mage and Thalia. With Burning Tree you mean Bushwhacker Zoo I suppose?
I have been toying around with the (preboard) UWx matchup, since I own both decks and they have a small overlap in cards, I proxied up the rest and tested against my girlfriend, her playing 'traditional' non-Terminus UW Control w/o Stoneforge but with the standard planeswalker package in T3feri, Narset, T5feri and JtMS. The matchup is definitely trickier than anticipated, LotV and early discard or even Loam/Crime are crucial to get ahead, then apply pressure via Tar Pit or Lingering Souls tokens. Manlands are essential for getting rid of their high-loyalty planeswalkers, the unblockable Tar Pit was indeed the best choice. Even after a resolved Gifts for Loam/Crime/Tec Edge/Souls the game went out of hand due to Vendilion Clique getting rid of a dredged Loam, then Narset and JtMS pulling ahead on cards. Engineered Explosives has turned out to be worth the slot, the non-Terminus version plays a significant amount of permanents in the 3-drop slot with Clique, Detention Sphere, Narset and T3feri. Kaya's Guile has been quite good, acting as an edict, exiling Snapcaster targets and generating another 1/1 spirit token. I ended up with an ever so slightly winning record, but the games were almost always close calls. Drown in the Loch wasn't in the list yet, however the number of cards UWx puts in the bin is suitable for enabling the card and I have high hopes that it is an improvement in versatility while simultaneously streamlining the deck and lowering its curve. This is my actual list:
I finally made it to an FNM after a long month of chaos that kept me from playing any mtg. It was well worth it as I was able to test a build with BtL in it and go completely undefeated(didn't lose a single game). The list below is what I tested and though I only saw BtL twice throughout the night it was nice as it served as extra copies of wraths (used against Humans and Boggles). It never felt like a dead card which I really liked, though I'll have to test it more as seeing it twice is a really small sample size.
Izzet Tempo 2-0
Lingering souls beats game 1 thrunn beats game 2
Humans 2-0
Game one btl for wrath and midrange beats game 2 gifts elsh norn. Player was a young kid that was new to the game
Burning Tree 2-0
Iona lock, elesh norn lock
Boggles 2-0
Pulse and wraths game 1 game 2 runed halo bought me time to get elesh norn on a clean board
Congrats on that finish! Game 4 against Boggles you say that Runed Halo bought you some time but I don't see any on the list, it's sideboard I'm guessing?
@EOT -
Sultai Charm- wanted an instant speed loot that was more versatile than my Champion. With everyone testing SFM builds Sultai charm is really killer- can kill a creature in response to an equip, break equipment and loot as needed.
Sigarda- Opposing Lotv protection and its a 5drop that can be had with BTL. It can stabilize a board more reliably than Baneslayer/Lyra as its hexproof.
Gideon- great way to close games out quickly as it can swing for 5 or emblem a board of tokens out of nowhere.
Izzet tempo is a local brew I've played against a few iterations of the build. The latest aims to play play things like brazen borrower and cliques to tempo you by countering and riding the small creatures to the win. The humans player was a newish player on a borrowed deck so super low skill level/experience. The burning tree deck was a deck using Pelt Collector, Vexing Devil, Burning tree to aggro but it did have bushwacker too so I guess maybe that's the name for it? I took this FNM off to play Niv to Light (2/2 suboptimal build) as I am getting to be known as the gifts player skewing what people keep against me; I bring it up as my list had a set of Drown in the Lochs. It was powerful and that deck had no discard so I have to agree it will be super powerful in our builds with t1 discards and t3 lotv's.
@user#-
Yes the runed halo is Sideboard card and I wouldn't consider cutting it as it so versatile. Being able to turn off a loaded bogle or large deathshadow is nice and it stops pesky lands like valukut from hitting you.
Oh, I forgot Sultai Charm has a Naturalize-like effect, thought it could only hit enchantments such as Esper Charm. It seems to be a little overcosted at 3 mana though, this is what threw me off when testing Kaya's Guile as well, even if versatility is key. Maybe try Drown in the Loch in this slot, the cheaper casting cost can make a big difference and even without discard on your own, Modern decks fill their cards quickly. Haven't seen LotV on the other side of the table recently, but Sigarda makes sense if your LGS is heavy on Rock or Jund. Any insights in sideboard slots? Your posted list doesn't run Runed Halo, hence the confusion since you mentioned it in your report.
How does Niv to Light compare to Gifts in your local meta?
Found The error in my posted list-Supreme in the board zhould be runed halo.
Niv is different it nice slamming a 5cmc draw ~4 action cards on a 6/6 body. I've only played 2 fnms and both builds were nowhere near a correct build, no pillars, astrolabes, or w6. But it's definitely fun. The consistency I've been able to assemble 5 colors without the extra fixing w6 and pillars provide makes me want to theory craft/test a 5c Gifts list.
At some point I have mentioned already that I tried a 5C Gifts list about 2 years ago, I sent you my list from back then via PM. Although it was enjoyable to play, I think R (or G, however you wanna put it) doesn't add enough to warrant the inclusion of a fifth colour, especially since the ways the mana bases are built are different between 4C and 5C.
Maybe I'm getting expelled from the thread for the following suggestion, in any case I'll start to re-ignite the discussion going on in here. Do you guys think that Oko, Thief of Crowns might have a place in this archetype? He is seeing very good results in Urza builds of course, Sultai Snow has been on the rise as well, at least partly on the back of Oko. It could remedy our miserable matchup against Burn if it comes down on turn 2 or 3 while dealing with problematic artifacts postboard (Grafdigger's Cage, Relic of Progenitus, Pithing Needle, Spyglass, maybe Oblivion Stone and so forth). Not sure if I can find an expendable slot though.
Regarding the newest take on Urza, I'm always thinking that the matchup should not be too bad at the moment. If we can stick an Iona on Blue preboard, most lists have nothing to do against it apart from drawing some of their artifacts, but this will only postpone the inevitable. Postboard it is a little more difficult with Brutality, Assassin's Trophy, Thoughtseize and such, but we have our own disruption suite available, only the very fast starts can be an issue as we're a little durdly at times. Any experience on the matchup, did I overlook anything?
Regarding the Oko + goose in the deck. I believe its a must. I've been testing it so far with success. We all know that Oko alone can buy enough time/attention for the deck to combo. It is at the same time a life gainer, removal and finisher. Goose also ramps or blocks and fixes mana issues.
With the green and ramp.. cards like Sultai Charm are probably worth considering.
I'll test it for a few more days and let you know how it went.
You think Goose is the way to go? Not having a repeatable mana source is a serious downside, is the food synergy worth it? That said, there is a very recent list that made a 5-0 finish in a league, have a look at the spice: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/2587217#paper.
Interesting list. I also find Teferi to fit the deck very properly. This approach with Astrolabe is more control. I wonder if the field of the dead combo is worth it.
I'm still curious to try it.
Astrolabe is definitely needed when I have a look at the distribution of mana costs, I am more conservative on the coloured mana requirements and limit myself to mostly BB and a single UU card. I think I'll try an adaptation of this list at some point, having Field of the Dead against UWx Control sounds like a great deal, although Loam/Crime used to be quite good as well, resolving Gifts is the crucial point overall. Not sure what to think about Elesh Norn in the board, just 1 Snapcaster Mage and things like Murderous Cut and the lack of Drown in the Loch, but we'll see.
I agree on astrolabe, the draw and mana fix are very very good.
The deck is surprisingly hard to pilot and could be easily hated. I remember when I won a couple of local FNM with a esper version 2 years ago.. next thing I knew.. everybody was packing anti graveyard cards and disrupt... But now we have Oko and Teferi who can buy time and draw attention and also don't need graveyard.
I still think it needs more draw/search.
I made a few cuts and rearrangements in my list and incorporated the Field of the Dead/Primeval Titan/Life from the Loam engine into the deck, basically instead of the Lingering Souls plan and the artifact package together with Academy Ruins. A convenient package could now be Field/Crime/Loam/TecEdge, playing excellently in the long game both dropping threats and decimating the opponent's hand, even more so with T3feri joined into the game. Sweepers have wandered off to the sideboard altogether, which made space for the full set of Astrolabes and two copies of T3feri, LotV occupies 3 instead of 4 slots in this particular list, not sure whether I'd like to have the full set though. Maelstrom Pulse has been cut due to its clunkiness as well, the mana curve hence was lowered quite a bit with Drown in the Loch taking the spots of Pulse and Path, the latter relieving some strain from the land base as well. The mana base was adjusted accordingly with 6 snow basics and 10 fetchlands (as before) and works mostly fine without an Astrolabe in play, although more often than not turn 1 basic into Astrolabe is really good. Having many 1-drops is a little awkward if one needs to decide whether Astrolabe or discard is more important at the time.
Long story short, here's the current list. Not sure if LtLH and Stony Silence (awkward with Astrolabe) are still in place in the sideboard, time will tell. The rest is pretty much standard, I could see Unmoored Ego as a 3-of against the myriad of Titan decks that will approach us in the upcoming season.
Interesting take on the loam/crime package. With the name clause for FotD wouldn't it be better to make the second basic regular? I know you want snow for astrolabe but my exp with Niv just the 5 snow basics is enough to regularly cast astrolabes so I doubt it'll be a problem. In general I like that this list has a lower than average CMC for Gift decks. With the recent banning of opal I don't think stony silence will be that needed (I cut mine way back when they banned KCI for my local meta but haven't played gifts in a urza meta).
I got inspired to theorycraft my take on your idea, mainly changes for what I have on hand. Basically Sultai Gifts as MD only Unburial and its targets have white. SB I get some more white options but honestly I'm not sure if a tested version would keep white at all really. Outside of discard and astrolabe everything is instant speed, and with 25 lands I think we can try growth spiral to draw through the deck and ramp a little. I stand by that a T3 Gifts is leagues better than a T4 Gifts. I think Golos can help with titan and is something that can be hit with BtL.
I think this is the right direction at the moment. Are you sure that you want BtL in this list though? You have no sweepers mainboard and BtL into Gifts at sorcery speed is super awkward. Golos is a nice payoff especially with Astrolabes, but BtL into Golos for Field of the Dead doesn't sound too great either, especially since it takes 5 mana and only nets you a single land when Golos gets killed, most likely 1-2 to go until the desired 7 for the trigger. Maybe Bring to Light should be T3feri? He does a ton of work in (re-)buying tempo and is hilarious with Raven's Crime and Loam. I'd swap a Drown in the Loch for a Fatal Push, the full set is a little much and diversifying your removal suite is always a good idea.
Maybe Stony Silence can be retired for the moment, Veil of Summer could be a nice option.
I agree about T3ferie as the deck really needs a hard lock and Loam/crime/t3feri is a hard lock once you strip their hand as you just draw step crime them. And a fun line for him with astrolabe is bounce labe draw a card, play labe draw a card.
Here's another version of the idea- Focusing on reducing dead draws and setting up Teferi +loam/crime to lock. With us milling lands KoR is back and with Kor and tefri Sun Titan becomes stronger. The odd Spice is Fae of Wishes as a way to tutor from our board if needed and a discard outlet. Worth noting it's not a split card and in the grave is only 2 cmc so titan can grab it, pitch 2 cards to setup another tutor/titan.
Unsure about-
golos and azcanta as picks. I think the one of drown will be key since we're heavy on discard the grave will be stocked so 95% of the time it'll be unconditional removal or counter as needed.
MY CURRENT ITERATION
This is the current iteration of my 4 Color Gifts list. A bit of a throwback to more control oriented lists. I think cards like Tarmogoyf are just too fair these days and can leave you having to claw back from really oppressive board states, which can be difficult. I am really curious to see how something like Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath plays out. I was running 2 copies of Oko, Thief of Crowns, but we all know how that played out. If Uro does not pan out, I may just shove another meat piece in or another Rites.
On the topic of MB Loam Locks, I think if you are running it as a 1-off engine, you are probably just better gifting for the Iona, Shield of Emeria lock and focusing on grinding out the game with Grave Titan. The Loam lock requires you to generally use a Gifts Ungiven to set up, in my experience, and at that point you should probably just go for the gold. But take that with a grain of salt, because I don't play Knight of the Reliquary so I still have to find win conditions unlike you.
As for reducing dead draws, I think Sultai Charm is pretty underrated to be honest. It is not really all that demanding to play and it filters through cards and sets you up if you have early draws into a Unburial Rites target. I would even go as far as to say that these days, it is probably a bit safer to dive into the graveyard a bit deeper with a 2nd copy of Unburial Rites and Snapcaster Mage. Speaking of Snapcaster, he also really helps give you flexibility in the mid and late game without constituting a dead draw. So in the games where you have not just gone ham with Gifts, you have the opportunity to just rebuy relevant spells be it a discard spell or gifts vs Control or a removal spell and blocker vs aggro decks.
I am back and forth on the split between Assassin's Trophy and Abrupt Decay. I like them both, but I recently swapped a 3rd Fatal Push for a 3rd Path to Exile and because of that, I kind of want to shift away from favoring Assassin's Trophy. I think ultimately this is a marginal change and that is why I don't particularly favor one or the other.
I will admit, while my manabase does not feel terrible, I think it could use some slight tweaking. Sometimes it can lead to puzzling turns just because of how the drops line up, and I think I can streamline it a bit more. But that is what I like about 4C Gifts, even with mana not always lining up perfectly, you generally are good if you just play smart.
I would also probably work on some SB changes in the next week or so, I think a single Wrath of God would be nice to get into the SB. This change would be at the expense of Spell Pierce, which I think is fine. Collector Ouphe can also probably come out, but I don't currently have a card I feel like swapping it for, outside of possible a Surgical Extraction.
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The list feels very retro at the first glance, mainly due to the 3 copies of Path to Exile and Noxious Revival. Spell Snare is also an uncommon inclusion nowadays, I always felt that it was in conflict with the turn 1 hand disruption plan the deck tries to execute, which is why Serum Visions is a little awkward as well. As far as countermagic goes, I'd advocate for Drown in the Loch in this kind of list, your 5 discard slots are fine overall, Sultai Charm feels a little clunky at times as it has the very real cost of 3 mana (colour mostly not being an issue) for the effect. Reducing dead draws is LotV's second name while simultaneously pressuring the opponent's resources. Have you tried her as a 3-of already? I'd never go back in most matchups.
Regarding the mana base I can see your concern, turn 1 W, U or B, turn 2 BG and turn 3 UW for T3feri is a challenge, which is why I'd suggest cutting down on Path to Exile as your premier spot removal spell, especially since this deck tries to stabilize until it can resolve Gifts, donating lands to your opponent early isn't a necessity with all the options in Modern and the exile clause doesn't matter as much as it did a while ago. Arcum's Astrolabe works wonders with only 6 snow basics and provides a welcome cantrip while a single copy on the field is enough to fix the mana almost perfectly fine, and it's more painless (or faster) than going for shockland after shockland. I have thought about switching the 2nd Trophy for a Maelstrom Pulse, T3feri can speed it up for the opponent's turn and I kinda want to be able to get rid off any nonland permanent with a Gifts pile if needed.
The play patterns you mentioned are generally fine, but for 2016 I fear. A single Grave Titan doesn't outgrind some (or even most) decks in Modern and immediately gets removed, having paid 3U + 3W for two 2/2 tokens, which isn't great. This is why some resilience in the choice of threats is important, which is precisely why Loam/Crime/Edge/Field is really good, there is no straightforward way a deck like UWx can interact with this combination without eventually getting behind on cards, countering things and destroying Field of the Dead doesn't achieve anything but delay. Even more so with T3feri on the board, keeping them from getting value of off instants cast in response to Crime. Iona does nothing against UWx, she either gets path'd or bounced and isn't a fast enough clock on her own. Rites/Titan doesn't do it either, as they can very easily interact with a sorcery spell for 3W, wheres a Gifts can be cast at instant speed and hence sneak through their defence, it's irrelevant which cards are in the yard from there on, the above-mentioned package keeps coming for them after this. That said, against opponents with less interaction, Rites/Titan can power out a myriad of zombie tokens within 2 turns, Rites/Elesh Norn is a nice option against opposing Fields and beefs up our own zombies immensely, the choice of reanimation target is heavily dependent on the opponent's deck and currently I think the trio of Titan, Elesh and Iona is the way to go.
I will first iterate that I am just sharing my own list for those interested. I have little interest in making it uniform to recent shared lists, especially some of the more stable iterations, as those the the ones I was working with prior to working with ones more in-line with my current iteration.
The way that decks come to be is important, no matter how counter-intuitive that seems. The process of building a deck is vital because it shows why certain cards were added/shaved, what interactions and matchups specific things are for, and the way the deck handles in dynamic situations.
In life, we don’t learn lessons by studying nonstop. We figure something out, discuss life strategies, discover a pattern, then we ponder them. We consider them and think about them and time passes. We mature and the lesson assimilates itself into our being through that very passage of time.
Deck building is no different, and anyone who tells you that decks don’t have inherent knowledge that is comprised within it through its development and maturation is either lying to you or ignorant. You need to be privy to that knowledge if you want to truly access a deck instead of just using it. It is the difference between playing a deck and piloting it.
Much Like AJ, I begin to digress.
The list feels very retro at the first glance, mainly due to the 3 copies of Path to Exile and Noxious Revival. Spell Snare is also an uncommon inclusion nowadays, I always felt that it was in conflict with the turn 1 hand disruption plan the deck tries to execute, which is why Serum Visions is a little awkward as well.
3 Path to Exile has been fine. I don't recall any games where them getting a land has really made any difference when playing a deck that one-trick ponies out a win condition like Gifts often does. In a game of attrition, if you grind them down on answers and threats, how many lands they have essentially becomes somewhat moot in my experience. They could have 5 more lands than me, if they cannot answer an Iona or Titan, then what does it matter? I think this is a big lesson I learned when messing with the number of Assassin's Trophy. The decks that are going over you are going over you regardless if you give them a land or not and if they are going under you, you can come over the top with Gifts in the mid and we are back to the land not really being of much consequence.
As for Spell Snare, as a 2-of, it does not really compete much with discard. If I wanted it in openers, I would run more than 2. It is really there as just an opportunistic play for snagging various things at various times. You are not looking to counter cards like Temur Battle Rage, Snapcaster Mage, Drown in the Loch, Thassa's Oracle, Assassin's Trophy or a myriad of other cards in the format, on turn 1 or 2. So while I understand that it is a 1 drop similar to cards like Inquisition of Kozilek, and Serum Visions, it has a different play cadence entirely. Sometimes you open with it and it snags an early Tarmogoyf or something, but as a 2-of card, that really isn't the intention.
Sultai Charm feels a little clunky at times as it has the very real cost of 3 mana (colour mostly not being an issue) for the effect. Reducing dead draws is LotV's second name while simultaneously pressuring the opponent's resources. Have you tried her as a 3-of already? I'd never go back in most matchups.
I think people sleeep pretty hard on Sultai Charm. I have never wished this card to be anything other than what it is. I talked about it reducing dead draws, but the reality is that the reason I run it isn't even the draw factor. It is hitting artifacts and enchantments and the attrition game it plays on decks trying to attack you in ways that Liliana cannot address. You cannot throw Trophy's at everything when the deck is trying to put a boot on your face with artifacts, lands, and planes-walkers. Tron and Titan are great matches where Liliana can sometimes just be utterly terrible and Charm snags things while letting you keep Trophies for everything else so they don't just go over you. So while I always loved Liliana, I think the deck is pretty efficient at answering things that Liliana can address - without her and that is where something like Charm comes in and shines. I used to run her a lot and I think since Fatal Push has arrived on the scene along with other great early removal options, she has taken a back seat so the deck can focus on having answers to decks trying to beat you by less traditional means while still helping you smooth out draws here and there.
Arcum's Astrolabe works wonders with only 6 snow basics and provides a welcome cantrip while a single copy on the field is enough to fix the mana almost perfectly fine, and it's more painless (or faster) than going for shockland after shockland. I have thought about switching the 2nd Trophy for a Maelstrom Pulse, T3feri can speed it up for the opponent's turn and I kinda want to be able to get rid off any nonland permanent with a Gifts pile if needed.
I was pretty hot on Arcum's Astrolabe with Oko, Thief of Crowns. But with the banning, I don't have much interest in it anymore. A big part about it was that Oko helped make up for the ground game you lose to fast decks by running Astrolabe. Without Oko, I don't really want to give up the ground game as much as I have to in order to do it. I think the mana base can just use some number tuning more than anything and you can gover your basis with a single flex slot if you need to. With 3 path and 2 Push, I am comfortable enough with the ground game to get Iona into the mainboard over something like Elesh Norn and I think that says a lot about Astrolabe in the deck without Oko. Overall, I don't have many mana issues outside of sometimess just wanting another basic for the sake of having one. With the iteration posted above, it really has not been that bad and I think it is a numbers thing not necessarily cards straining it by cost alone.
The play patterns you mentioned are generally fine, but for 2016 I fear. A single Grave Titan doesn't outgrind some (or even most) decks in Modern and immediately gets removed, having paid 3U + 3W for two 2/2 tokens, which isn't great
I am not sure what Modern you are playing, but it is probably pretty different than mine. Titan and Tron decks are not removing Grave Titan. Urza decks might bounce him here and there, but I could cast him all day here. Fatal Push, Dismember, Lightning Bolt, modern is incredibly greedy with their removal options right now and it has let me get away with things that the format shouldn't, because I agree, Grave Titan really isn't good in the format if decks are more conservative... but they are not. In the past 2 weeks and over 30 games, I recall 1 instance where my Grave Titan was actually removed. Most decks in the format do not currently run broad spectrum spot removal. But this really brings me back to why I am enjoying Path to Exile right now. Amulet Titan isn't just a good deck right now, it is a good deck preying on a format that isn't running adequate removal for cards like Titans right now.
Iona does nothing against UWx, she either gets path'd or bounced and isn't a fast enough clock on her own. Rites/Titan doesn't do it either, as they can very easily interact with a sorcery spell for 3W, wheres a Gifts can be cast at instant speed and hence sneak through their defence, it's irrelevant which cards are in the yard from there on, the above-mentioned package keeps coming for them after this. That said, against opponents with less interaction, Rites/Titan can power out a myriad of zombie tokens within 2 turns, Rites/Elesh Norn is a nice option against opposing Fields and beefs up our own zombies immensely, the choice of reanimation target is heavily dependent on the opponent's deck and currently I think the trio of Titan, Elesh and Iona is the way to go.
I am not sure what you are getting at with your comments about UW followed by your proposal of finisher selection. Elesh Norn doesn't change the UW match at all and Grave Titan and Iona shouldn't be your game plan vs UW anyways. Creeping Tar Pit is king and you can ratio their spot removal for it (and technically out ratio it) with hand disruption and Teferi.
As for your comments about Loam and Crime package main, I left that a long time ago. It is pretty painful when you draw into these cards in anything other than a control match. I don't want it against Tron in games 1 if I am also running things like Fatal Push, Iona, and Snare in the main and I don't think Titan is really all that rough of a match. I like the Loam/Crime package, just not in the MB. I feel like a lot of these trivial interactions cost the deck a lot of footing across a series of games vs unknown decks in game 1 for an event.
I will conclude that you mention 2016 play patterns, but seem to think about these matches in a way that is a complete 180 from my experience and approach with the list, so I am not entirely sure where that is coming from other than the list does look like more of a throwback. I don't think the part that is off about it, is the year, but the pilot approach. Which brings me full circle to the quote above by AJ Sacher, which I don't quote with ill intentions. I appreciate you chiming in, I have played this deck since 2014 and it is hands down my favorite deck in Modern and I am excited that people are still talking about it. You mentioned LoTV and how much you like her, and that tells me that she still has some play and while she does not currently fill the shoe I am looking to fill, she is still a good option for me to revisit over perhaps other cards. That is important to me, that people are still liking some things I have cooled off on over the years.
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I have been toying around with the (preboard) UWx matchup, since I own both decks and they have a small overlap in cards, I proxied up the rest and tested against my girlfriend, her playing 'traditional' non-Terminus UW Control w/o Stoneforge but with the standard planeswalker package in T3feri, Narset, T5feri and JtMS. The matchup is definitely trickier than anticipated, LotV and early discard or even Loam/Crime are crucial to get ahead, then apply pressure via Tar Pit or Lingering Souls tokens. Manlands are essential for getting rid of their high-loyalty planeswalkers, the unblockable Tar Pit was indeed the best choice. Even after a resolved Gifts for Loam/Crime/Tec Edge/Souls the game went out of hand due to Vendilion Clique getting rid of a dredged Loam, then Narset and JtMS pulling ahead on cards. Engineered Explosives has turned out to be worth the slot, the non-Terminus version plays a significant amount of permanents in the 3-drop slot with Clique, Detention Sphere, Narset and T3feri. Kaya's Guile has been quite good, acting as an edict, exiling Snapcaster targets and generating another 1/1 spirit token. I ended up with an ever so slightly winning record, but the games were almost always close calls. Drown in the Loch wasn't in the list yet, however the number of cards UWx puts in the bin is suitable for enabling the card and I have high hopes that it is an improvement in versatility while simultaneously streamlining the deck and lowering its curve. This is my actual list:
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
Land
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Temple Garden
1 Watery Grave
1 Godless Shrine
1 Breeding Pool
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Academy Ruins
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Forest
4 Marsh Flats
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Plains
1 Swamp
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Tectonic Edge
2 Polluted Delta
1 Island
1 Engineered Explosives
Instant
4 Gifts Ungiven
1 Path to Exile
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Fatal Push
3 Assassin's Trophy
2 Drown in the Loch
Sorcery
1 Life from the Loam
1 Raven's Crime
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Unburial Rites
2 Lingering Souls
2 Thoughtseize
1 Collective Brutality
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
Planeswalker
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Stony Silence
2 Torpor Orb
1 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Damping Sphere
1 Extirpate
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Damnation
2 Unmoored Ego
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
Congrats on that finish! Game 4 against Boggles you say that Runed Halo bought you some time but I don't see any on the list, it's sideboard I'm guessing?
Sultai Charm- wanted an instant speed loot that was more versatile than my Champion. With everyone testing SFM builds Sultai charm is really killer- can kill a creature in response to an equip, break equipment and loot as needed.
Sigarda- Opposing Lotv protection and its a 5drop that can be had with BTL. It can stabilize a board more reliably than Baneslayer/Lyra as its hexproof.
Gideon- great way to close games out quickly as it can swing for 5 or emblem a board of tokens out of nowhere.
Izzet tempo is a local brew I've played against a few iterations of the build. The latest aims to play play things like brazen borrower and cliques to tempo you by countering and riding the small creatures to the win. The humans player was a newish player on a borrowed deck so super low skill level/experience. The burning tree deck was a deck using Pelt Collector, Vexing Devil, Burning tree to aggro but it did have bushwacker too so I guess maybe that's the name for it? I took this FNM off to play Niv to Light (2/2 suboptimal build) as I am getting to be known as the gifts player skewing what people keep against me; I bring it up as my list had a set of Drown in the Lochs. It was powerful and that deck had no discard so I have to agree it will be super powerful in our builds with t1 discards and t3 lotv's.
@user#-
Yes the runed halo is Sideboard card and I wouldn't consider cutting it as it so versatile. Being able to turn off a loaded bogle or large deathshadow is nice and it stops pesky lands like valukut from hitting you.
4c Gifts Deck Stats: https://bit.ly/2XMPrlY
https://pucatrade.com/invite/gift/120495
How does Niv to Light compare to Gifts in your local meta?
Niv is different it nice slamming a 5cmc draw ~4 action cards on a 6/6 body. I've only played 2 fnms and both builds were nowhere near a correct build, no pillars, astrolabes, or w6. But it's definitely fun. The consistency I've been able to assemble 5 colors without the extra fixing w6 and pillars provide makes me want to theory craft/test a 5c Gifts list.
4c Gifts Deck Stats: https://bit.ly/2XMPrlY
https://pucatrade.com/invite/gift/120495
Regarding the newest take on Urza, I'm always thinking that the matchup should not be too bad at the moment. If we can stick an Iona on Blue preboard, most lists have nothing to do against it apart from drawing some of their artifacts, but this will only postpone the inevitable. Postboard it is a little more difficult with Brutality, Assassin's Trophy, Thoughtseize and such, but we have our own disruption suite available, only the very fast starts can be an issue as we're a little durdly at times. Any experience on the matchup, did I overlook anything?
With the green and ramp.. cards like Sultai Charm are probably worth considering.
I'll test it for a few more days and let you know how it went.
I'm still curious to try it.
The deck is surprisingly hard to pilot and could be easily hated. I remember when I won a couple of local FNM with a esper version 2 years ago.. next thing I knew.. everybody was packing anti graveyard cards and disrupt... But now we have Oko and Teferi who can buy time and draw attention and also don't need graveyard.
I still think it needs more draw/search.
Long story short, here's the current list. Not sure if LtLH and Stony Silence (awkward with Astrolabe) are still in place in the sideboard, time will tell. The rest is pretty much standard, I could see Unmoored Ego as a 3-of against the myriad of Titan decks that will approach us in the upcoming season.
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Primeval Titan
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
Land
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Watery Grave
1 Godless Shrine
1 Breeding Pool
1 Hallowed Fountain
2 Marsh Flats
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Tectonic Edge
3 Polluted Delta
1 Snow-Covered Plains
2 Snow-Covered Island
2 Snow-Covered Swamp
1 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Field of the Dead
4 Arcum's Astrolabe
Instant
4 Gifts Ungiven
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Fatal Push
2 Assassin's Trophy
2 Drown in the Loch
Sorcery
1 Life from the Loam
1 Raven's Crime
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Unburial Rites
2 Thoughtseize
1 Collective Brutality
Planeswalker
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Teferi, Time Raveler
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Stony Silence
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Damping Sphere
1 Extirpate
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Damnation
1 Wrath of God
1 Supreme Verdict
2 Unmoored Ego
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
I got inspired to theorycraft my take on your idea, mainly changes for what I have on hand. Basically Sultai Gifts as MD only Unburial and its targets have white. SB I get some more white options but honestly I'm not sure if a tested version would keep white at all really. Outside of discard and astrolabe everything is instant speed, and with 25 lands I think we can try growth spiral to draw through the deck and ramp a little. I stand by that a T3 Gifts is leagues better than a T4 Gifts. I think Golos can help with titan and is something that can be hit with BtL.
1 Primeval Titan
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Raven's Crime
1 Unburial Rites
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Life from the Loam
Card Draw
1 Search for Azcanta // Azcanta, the Sunken Ruin
3 Growth Spiral
4 Arcum's Astrolabe
1 Sultai Charm
Land
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Island
1 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
3 Windswept Heath
1 Plains
1 Stirring Wildwood
1 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Snow-Covered Swamp
1 Snow-Covered Plains
1 Field of the Dead
1 Forest
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Godless Shrine
1 Breeding Pool
1 Watery Grave
1 Temple Garden
1 Overgrown Tomb
2 Ghost Quarter
1 Field of Ruin
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Bring to Light
3 Gifts Ungiven
Spot Removal
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Assassin's Trophy
4 Drown in the Loch
Creature
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Golos, Tireless Pilgrim
Discard
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Collective Brutality
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Unmoored Ego
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Extirpate
2 Damping Sphere
1 Runed Halo
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Wrath of God
2 Ashiok, Dream Render
4 Lingering Souls
4c Gifts Deck Stats: https://bit.ly/2XMPrlY
https://pucatrade.com/invite/gift/120495
Maybe Stony Silence can be retired for the moment, Veil of Summer could be a nice option.
4c Gifts Deck Stats: https://bit.ly/2XMPrlY
https://pucatrade.com/invite/gift/120495
2 Thoughtseize
1 Raven's Crime
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
Unburial Target
1 Primeval Titan
1 Sun Titan
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
Creature
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Golos, Tireless Pilgrim
1 Eternal Witness
1 uro titan of nature's wrath
Land
1 Swamp
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Island
1 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
3 Windswept Heath
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Snow-Covered Swamp
1 Snow-Covered Island
1 Snow-Covered Plains
2 Field of the Dead
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Godless Shrine
1 Breeding Pool
1 Watery Grave
1 Temple Garden
1 Overgrown Tomb
3 Gifts Ungiven
1 Unburial Rites
1 Fae of Wishes // Granted
Removal
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Assassin's Trophy
1 Drown in the Loch
1 Sultai Charm
Planeswalker
3 Teferi, Time Raveler
Mana Fixing
4 Arcum's Astrolabe
2 Life from the Loam
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
2 Damping Sphere
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
2 Ashiok, Dream Render
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Unmoored Ego
1 Runed Halo
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Crumble to Dust
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Underworld Breach
Unsure about-
golos and azcanta as picks. I think the one of drown will be key since we're heavy on discard the grave will be stocked so 95% of the time it'll be unconditional removal or counter as needed.
4c Gifts Deck Stats: https://bit.ly/2XMPrlY
https://pucatrade.com/invite/gift/120495
MY CURRENT ITERATION
This is the current iteration of my 4 Color Gifts list. A bit of a throwback to more control oriented lists. I think cards like Tarmogoyf are just too fair these days and can leave you having to claw back from really oppressive board states, which can be difficult. I am really curious to see how something like Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath plays out. I was running 2 copies of Oko, Thief of Crowns, but we all know how that played out. If Uro does not pan out, I may just shove another meat piece in or another Rites.
On the topic of MB Loam Locks, I think if you are running it as a 1-off engine, you are probably just better gifting for the Iona, Shield of Emeria lock and focusing on grinding out the game with Grave Titan. The Loam lock requires you to generally use a Gifts Ungiven to set up, in my experience, and at that point you should probably just go for the gold. But take that with a grain of salt, because I don't play Knight of the Reliquary so I still have to find win conditions unlike you.
As for reducing dead draws, I think Sultai Charm is pretty underrated to be honest. It is not really all that demanding to play and it filters through cards and sets you up if you have early draws into a Unburial Rites target. I would even go as far as to say that these days, it is probably a bit safer to dive into the graveyard a bit deeper with a 2nd copy of Unburial Rites and Snapcaster Mage. Speaking of Snapcaster, he also really helps give you flexibility in the mid and late game without constituting a dead draw. So in the games where you have not just gone ham with Gifts, you have the opportunity to just rebuy relevant spells be it a discard spell or gifts vs Control or a removal spell and blocker vs aggro decks.
I am back and forth on the split between Assassin's Trophy and Abrupt Decay. I like them both, but I recently swapped a 3rd Fatal Push for a 3rd Path to Exile and because of that, I kind of want to shift away from favoring Assassin's Trophy. I think ultimately this is a marginal change and that is why I don't particularly favor one or the other.
I will admit, while my manabase does not feel terrible, I think it could use some slight tweaking. Sometimes it can lead to puzzling turns just because of how the drops line up, and I think I can streamline it a bit more. But that is what I like about 4C Gifts, even with mana not always lining up perfectly, you generally are good if you just play smart.
I would also probably work on some SB changes in the next week or so, I think a single Wrath of God would be nice to get into the SB. This change would be at the expense of Spell Pierce, which I think is fine. Collector Ouphe can also probably come out, but I don't currently have a card I feel like swapping it for, outside of possible a Surgical Extraction.
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Regarding the mana base I can see your concern, turn 1 W, U or B, turn 2 BG and turn 3 UW for T3feri is a challenge, which is why I'd suggest cutting down on Path to Exile as your premier spot removal spell, especially since this deck tries to stabilize until it can resolve Gifts, donating lands to your opponent early isn't a necessity with all the options in Modern and the exile clause doesn't matter as much as it did a while ago. Arcum's Astrolabe works wonders with only 6 snow basics and provides a welcome cantrip while a single copy on the field is enough to fix the mana almost perfectly fine, and it's more painless (or faster) than going for shockland after shockland. I have thought about switching the 2nd Trophy for a Maelstrom Pulse, T3feri can speed it up for the opponent's turn and I kinda want to be able to get rid off any nonland permanent with a Gifts pile if needed.
The play patterns you mentioned are generally fine, but for 2016 I fear. A single Grave Titan doesn't outgrind some (or even most) decks in Modern and immediately gets removed, having paid 3U + 3W for two 2/2 tokens, which isn't great. This is why some resilience in the choice of threats is important, which is precisely why Loam/Crime/Edge/Field is really good, there is no straightforward way a deck like UWx can interact with this combination without eventually getting behind on cards, countering things and destroying Field of the Dead doesn't achieve anything but delay. Even more so with T3feri on the board, keeping them from getting value of off instants cast in response to Crime. Iona does nothing against UWx, she either gets path'd or bounced and isn't a fast enough clock on her own. Rites/Titan doesn't do it either, as they can very easily interact with a sorcery spell for 3W, wheres a Gifts can be cast at instant speed and hence sneak through their defence, it's irrelevant which cards are in the yard from there on, the above-mentioned package keeps coming for them after this. That said, against opponents with less interaction, Rites/Titan can power out a myriad of zombie tokens within 2 turns, Rites/Elesh Norn is a nice option against opposing Fields and beefs up our own zombies immensely, the choice of reanimation target is heavily dependent on the opponent's deck and currently I think the trio of Titan, Elesh and Iona is the way to go.
Much Like AJ, I begin to digress.
3 Path to Exile has been fine. I don't recall any games where them getting a land has really made any difference when playing a deck that one-trick ponies out a win condition like Gifts often does. In a game of attrition, if you grind them down on answers and threats, how many lands they have essentially becomes somewhat moot in my experience. They could have 5 more lands than me, if they cannot answer an Iona or Titan, then what does it matter? I think this is a big lesson I learned when messing with the number of Assassin's Trophy. The decks that are going over you are going over you regardless if you give them a land or not and if they are going under you, you can come over the top with Gifts in the mid and we are back to the land not really being of much consequence.
As for Spell Snare, as a 2-of, it does not really compete much with discard. If I wanted it in openers, I would run more than 2. It is really there as just an opportunistic play for snagging various things at various times. You are not looking to counter cards like Temur Battle Rage, Snapcaster Mage, Drown in the Loch, Thassa's Oracle, Assassin's Trophy or a myriad of other cards in the format, on turn 1 or 2. So while I understand that it is a 1 drop similar to cards like Inquisition of Kozilek, and Serum Visions, it has a different play cadence entirely. Sometimes you open with it and it snags an early Tarmogoyf or something, but as a 2-of card, that really isn't the intention.
I think people sleeep pretty hard on Sultai Charm. I have never wished this card to be anything other than what it is. I talked about it reducing dead draws, but the reality is that the reason I run it isn't even the draw factor. It is hitting artifacts and enchantments and the attrition game it plays on decks trying to attack you in ways that Liliana cannot address. You cannot throw Trophy's at everything when the deck is trying to put a boot on your face with artifacts, lands, and planes-walkers. Tron and Titan are great matches where Liliana can sometimes just be utterly terrible and Charm snags things while letting you keep Trophies for everything else so they don't just go over you. So while I always loved Liliana, I think the deck is pretty efficient at answering things that Liliana can address - without her and that is where something like Charm comes in and shines. I used to run her a lot and I think since Fatal Push has arrived on the scene along with other great early removal options, she has taken a back seat so the deck can focus on having answers to decks trying to beat you by less traditional means while still helping you smooth out draws here and there.
I was pretty hot on Arcum's Astrolabe with Oko, Thief of Crowns. But with the banning, I don't have much interest in it anymore. A big part about it was that Oko helped make up for the ground game you lose to fast decks by running Astrolabe. Without Oko, I don't really want to give up the ground game as much as I have to in order to do it. I think the mana base can just use some number tuning more than anything and you can gover your basis with a single flex slot if you need to. With 3 path and 2 Push, I am comfortable enough with the ground game to get Iona into the mainboard over something like Elesh Norn and I think that says a lot about Astrolabe in the deck without Oko. Overall, I don't have many mana issues outside of sometimess just wanting another basic for the sake of having one. With the iteration posted above, it really has not been that bad and I think it is a numbers thing not necessarily cards straining it by cost alone.
I am not sure what Modern you are playing, but it is probably pretty different than mine. Titan and Tron decks are not removing Grave Titan. Urza decks might bounce him here and there, but I could cast him all day here. Fatal Push, Dismember, Lightning Bolt, modern is incredibly greedy with their removal options right now and it has let me get away with things that the format shouldn't, because I agree, Grave Titan really isn't good in the format if decks are more conservative... but they are not. In the past 2 weeks and over 30 games, I recall 1 instance where my Grave Titan was actually removed. Most decks in the format do not currently run broad spectrum spot removal. But this really brings me back to why I am enjoying Path to Exile right now. Amulet Titan isn't just a good deck right now, it is a good deck preying on a format that isn't running adequate removal for cards like Titans right now.
I am not sure what you are getting at with your comments about UW followed by your proposal of finisher selection. Elesh Norn doesn't change the UW match at all and Grave Titan and Iona shouldn't be your game plan vs UW anyways. Creeping Tar Pit is king and you can ratio their spot removal for it (and technically out ratio it) with hand disruption and Teferi.
As for your comments about Loam and Crime package main, I left that a long time ago. It is pretty painful when you draw into these cards in anything other than a control match. I don't want it against Tron in games 1 if I am also running things like Fatal Push, Iona, and Snare in the main and I don't think Titan is really all that rough of a match. I like the Loam/Crime package, just not in the MB. I feel like a lot of these trivial interactions cost the deck a lot of footing across a series of games vs unknown decks in game 1 for an event.
I will conclude that you mention 2016 play patterns, but seem to think about these matches in a way that is a complete 180 from my experience and approach with the list, so I am not entirely sure where that is coming from other than the list does look like more of a throwback. I don't think the part that is off about it, is the year, but the pilot approach. Which brings me full circle to the quote above by AJ Sacher, which I don't quote with ill intentions. I appreciate you chiming in, I have played this deck since 2014 and it is hands down my favorite deck in Modern and I am excited that people are still talking about it. You mentioned LoTV and how much you like her, and that tells me that she still has some play and while she does not currently fill the shoe I am looking to fill, she is still a good option for me to revisit over perhaps other cards. That is important to me, that people are still liking some things I have cooled off on over the years.
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