True, Stony Silence is symmetrical however, so you would need to have the stronger board before you drop the second piece for the lock. New Karn does not affect your own lands (which would be changed to artifacts by Mycosynth Lattice) and only shuts your opponent out of the game. It even lets you fetch Mycosynth from the sideboard.
Gives us another fun move for 10 mana.
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Modern: Death&Taxes / U Tron / G Tron / Goblins
Legacy: Death&Taxes (almost there)
EDH: Squee, Goblin Nabob / Phelddagrif
It will be interesting to see how far down cutting the tutors and tools from the deck we can go in favor of new Karn. While he is a Turn slower than the mages, he can partially or outright replace a ton of cards in the deck. But it will be tricky to see which cards absolutely have to stay maindeck, other than the maps and which can go to the SB.
I don't know if we can afford to go so low on wincons in the main and hope we draw the Karn (even if it is a 4 of) to win the game. Although I guess if set up more similar to yours, we could try to mimic UW control with basically no win cons besides the walkers. Maybe something like:
I very much like the consistency have 3s and 4s in our deck gives. This also allows us to have that tutor package a lot of us really love about this deck. There perhaps should be some number of Chalice of the Void in the main but its always 50/50 whether its good in any given matchup in modern.
With the Karn, Lattice combo as long as the opponent doesn't already have creatures out we win the game so this is definitely a strong potential wincon.
I’m not sure if you would want most of your threats to depend on a resolved Karn. It gives you even less threat density and actually putting a threat on the board requires either loads of mana or two consecutive turns without getting disrupted/countered. You can fetch what suits the situation best, but have a very limited follow-up once your threat gets answered since it‘s all one-ofs and needs Academy Ruins to retrieve cards.
Perhaps that‘s painting a black picture, as the above probably fits for all toolbox-versions of U Tron. If I may suggest, I would go with 1-2 Karn and a more or less classic sideboard with it’s selection of answers + Mycosynth Lattice!
I definitely agree with this. An all-in version in theory looks super fun but its probably pretty unrealistic. It'll require tons of mana and having multiple spells resolve AND that those spells have impact. I think 1-2 is probably the right amount with a small number of threats and our usual artifact answers in the board.
Overall I'm looking forward to trying this new Karn as a potential new combo and value engine in our deck. The plus can allow us to either remove non creature artifacts with our mainboard removal, or use our talismans and/or other artifacts to present a clock. The tutor is obvious reason we would play this card, allowing us more answers and a more diverse threat suite without having to dilute our main deck too much.
The card is obviously slow and better when we are already ahead. But its not a terrible topdeck if we already have tons of mana and no threats in hand/no academy ruins targets.
I don't know if we can afford to go so low on wincons in the main and hope we draw the Karn (even if it is a 4 of) to win the game. Although I guess if set up more similar to yours, we could try to mimic UW control with basically no win cons besides the walkers. Maybe something like:
I very much like the consistency have 3s and 4s in our deck gives. This also allows us to have that tutor package a lot of us really love about this deck. There perhaps should be some number of Chalice of the Void in the main but its always 50/50 whether its good in any given matchup in modern.
With the Karn, Lattice combo as long as the opponent doesn't already have creatures out we win the game so this is definitely a strong potential wincon.
That's one thing I was worried about when I made the list, that we would be making a gimped version of U/W control with an overall lower card quality.
If you are going full wish board I'd lean towards more karns at least 3
Personally, I'd keep the universally good cards and the cards best against aggro in the main since turn 5 is too slow against aggro.
so wurmcoils and walking ballistas in the main a bit like bunny's deck.
In the current meta playing main deck relic and cages is nice because Karn can turn them into chump blockers if they aren't needed, also I'd recommend tailismins.
As for Lattice I didn't even think of it, I guess as a 1 of hate grab for decks like scapeshift or any game that has stalemated into a grind.
Just having the ability to tutor like that makes me want to slide Jester's Cap back into my sideboard just to destroy random decks.
I definitely have been playing tons of creatures in the main and would probably do the same when playing new karn. I'm on 3 wurmcoil engine and 4 walking ballista. Theoretically Wish board is sweet I just don't know how viable, I too would be on the more midrange package.
I've been trying out 3 relic of progenitus main on xmage and dumping snapcaster. It feels nice I just don't know yet how good overall it is. I don't have enough data to back it up but winning against Phoenix and dredge definitely feel more achievable.
I think that we can't all in on this new Karn. It's a really great new tool for our deck : toolbox + combo potential. Jester's cap is a great idea too with this new Karn.
But the question is .... Is this Karn real or a fake ?
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But the question is .... Is this Karn real or a fake ?
Yeah, I still can't believe the passive ability works like that when Mycosynth Lattice exists. Or then Wizards didn't think it all the way through or the spoiled card doesn't have the mana ability exception written on it.
WotC doesn't design cards with balance in Modern in mind. They may have that perspective from time to time, but interactions with modern cards are really not a preoccupation. At the end of the day anything can be banned out of the format, if need be.
I don't know if you've guys seen the rumor regarding the new Ugin, but if it is correct I find the card fairly underwhelming for 6 mana, at least when it comes to our needs. It is not really a win con, and it costs a lot for a "manifest" bear factory stapled to a narrower vindicate.
I don't see the cost reduction as particularly powerful in our case because it requires cards for sequencing, Ugin surviving and living long enough to drop him. The card just does not turn the game around on its own like our other finishers.
It is good, but in my estimation, not good enough. I hope its fake.
Currently, Chalice of the Void is at an all-time high in terms of meta-gaming. I see lots of Burn, Phoenix and UWx Control / Combo plus many others where Chalice on 1 or 2 is close to a hardlock. See the list on my profile for reference, and those additional Artifacts are nice to have with 2+ Karn.
Towards Gemstone Caverns and 23 Lands: I remember the spreadsheet some pages back with the related win percentage for most cards, and if I recall it right, the Caverns is a 3-4% boost, depending on how many times we are on the draw. I won a short tournament a while back because I always had it when I was on the draw. And with 2 Talisman of Dominance which either ramp for a T3 Karn (or even Ugin with natural Tron - happened!) and growing the Constructs while providing colored mana, 23 Lands are enough.
I would say so, yes. But It also depends on how the meta shifts with all these new walkers and edicts. If midrange and control become more popular I would say maybe. A 2/2 beater has won me games against control because they refuse to spend path or bolt on a 10 turn clock, when we have cards like wurmcoil engine or sundering titan. I'm not currently playing either but If izzet phoenix continues to be the top deck, I would definitely play it. the 2/2 is less relevant, and Karn, the Great Creator allows more flexibility while still creating a troublesome permanent.
Mobilized District is Definitely an interesting card but I don't if thats the kind of control deck we are. Adding a colorless land that doesn't inherently progress our plan (e.g. cards like field of ruin, tectonic edge, gemstone caverns, academy ruins)are pretty hard to play if we are trying to stay alive. If mishra's factory is printed in modern horizons I'd be more interested in that. The activation cost always costing 1 vs 4 (most of the time) is a real cost. Even if factory was legal in modern I still doubt we would play it. Typically decks that are proactive in destroying the opponents hand or game plan are more likely to play aggressively slanted lands. We see this in legacy standstill,pox, sometimes 4c loam or D&T. Modern 8rack, GBx, merfolk. We have more maindeck win condtions than the celestial colonnade decks. Perhaps the new Karn lets us try something like this with Mobilized District, but I still don't think we can imitate them well enough for it be a viable strategy in our deck.
Currently, Chalice of the Void is at an all-time high in terms of meta-gaming. I see lots of Burn, Phoenix and UWx Control / Combo plus many others where Chalice on 1 or 2 is close to a hardlock. See the list on my profile for reference, and those additional Artifacts are nice to have with 2+ Karn.
Towards Gemstone Caverns and 23 Lands: I remember the spreadsheet some pages back with the related win percentage for most cards, and if I recall it right, the Caverns is a 3-4% boost, depending on how many times we are on the draw. I won a short tournament a while back because I always had it when I was on the draw. And with 2 Talisman of Dominance which either ramp for a T3 Karn (or even Ugin with natural Tron - happened!) and growing the Constructs while providing colored mana, 23 Lands are enough.
I believe it was done by thinkr in here.*
Spreedsheet
Obviously the mana acceleration is nice but is it needed? I cut both of those cards over a year ago and haven't missed them. The data did trend towards caverns being good but not significantly. That spreadsheet currently having it at .31% overall win increase and talisman and a actually 0%. If we go based on this treasure mage and snapcaster mage both have significant negative correlations of losing when in the opening hand. (snapcaster less so).
*Please tell me if I am interpreting the data wrong. I'd rather be wrong and know about it, rather than wrong and not.
I can just tell from my personal experience (what I did in my last post), and I will keep those in my deck. The Talisman can also be discarded to TfK or boost Karnstructs if need be.
As far as I know, yes. If that spoiler proves correct, that is.
Legacy: Death&Taxes (almost there)
EDH: Squee, Goblin Nabob / Phelddagrif
Gives us another fun move for 10 mana.
Legacy: Death&Taxes (almost there)
EDH: Squee, Goblin Nabob / Phelddagrif
1x Academy Ruins
1x Field of Ruin
1x Gemstone Caverns
5x Island
1x River of Tears
4x Urza's Mine
4x Urza's Power Plant
4x Urza's Tower
1x Tolaria West
1x Tectonic Edge
1x Oboro, Palace in the Clouds
Ramp+Tutor
4x Expedition Map
2x Talisman of Dominance
4x Karn, the Great Creator
2x Chalice of the Void
4x Condescend
1x Cyclonic Rift
3x Dismember
3x Remand
2x Repeal
2x Spatial Contortion
1x Spell Pierce
1x Spell Snare
Non-Tutorable WinCon
1x Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
Value/Draw
1x Mindslaver (just in case)
1x Snapcaster Mage
4x Thirst for Knowledge
1x Crucible of Worlds
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Jester's Cap
1x Mindslaver
1x Oblivion Stone
1x Pithing Needle
1x Platinum Angel
2x Spreading Seas
1x Sundering Titan
1x Tormod's Crypt
1x Walking Ballista
1x Mycosynth Lattice
1x Wurmcoil Engine
I see Chalice as pretty bad in the SB. Most of the time I think we want it early, or not at all.
Thirst gets worse in this list, with only 8 targets.
This is something I would try from my current list as a way to try out Karn.
4 Urza's Mine
4 Urza's Power Plant
4 Urza's Tower
6 Island
1 Tolaria West
2 Field of Ruin
1 Academy Ruins
3 River Of Tears
Creatures (9)
4 Walking Ballista
1 Snapcaster Mage
2 Wurmcoil Engine
2 Thought-Knot Seer
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
2 Karn, The Great Creator
Spells (18)
4 Condescend
3 Repeal
3 Remand
3 Dismember
1 Cyclonic Rift
4 Thirst For Knowledge
Artifacts(5)
4 Expedition Map
1 Mindslaver
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Tormod's Crypt
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Negate
4 Spatial Contortion
1 Oblivion Stone
1 Mindslaver
1 Mycosynth Lattice
1 Wurmcoil engine
I don't know if we can afford to go so low on wincons in the main and hope we draw the Karn (even if it is a 4 of) to win the game. Although I guess if set up more similar to yours, we could try to mimic UW control with basically no win cons besides the walkers. Maybe something like:
4 Urza's Mine
4 Urza's Power Plant
4 Urza's Tower
6 Island
3 River Of Tears
1 Academy Ruins
1 Field of Ruin
1 Tectonic Edge
1 Tolaria West
Creatures (2)
2 Snapcaster Mage
Planeswalkers (6)
4 Karn, The Great Creator
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
4 Condescend
1 Spell Snare
3 Repeal
3 Remand
3 Dismember
3 spatial contortion
1 Cyclonic Rift
4 Thirst For Knowledge
Artifacts(5)
4 Expedition Map
1 Mindslaver
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Walking Ballista
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Pithing Needle
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Oblivion Stone
1 Mindslaver
1 Mycosynth Lattice
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Platinum Angel
1 Sundering Titan
I very much like the consistency have 3s and 4s in our deck gives. This also allows us to have that tutor package a lot of us really love about this deck. There perhaps should be some number of Chalice of the Void in the main but its always 50/50 whether its good in any given matchup in modern.
With the Karn, Lattice combo as long as the opponent doesn't already have creatures out we win the game so this is definitely a strong potential wincon.
Perhaps that‘s painting a black picture, as the above probably fits for all toolbox-versions of U Tron. If I may suggest, I would go with 1-2 Karn and a more or less classic sideboard with it’s selection of answers + Mycosynth Lattice!
Legacy: Death&Taxes (almost there)
EDH: Squee, Goblin Nabob / Phelddagrif
Overall I'm looking forward to trying this new Karn as a potential new combo and value engine in our deck. The plus can allow us to either remove non creature artifacts with our mainboard removal, or use our talismans and/or other artifacts to present a clock. The tutor is obvious reason we would play this card, allowing us more answers and a more diverse threat suite without having to dilute our main deck too much.
The card is obviously slow and better when we are already ahead. But its not a terrible topdeck if we already have tons of mana and no threats in hand/no academy ruins targets.
That's one thing I was worried about when I made the list, that we would be making a gimped version of U/W control with an overall lower card quality.
Personally, I'd keep the universally good cards and the cards best against aggro in the main since turn 5 is too slow against aggro.
so wurmcoils and walking ballistas in the main a bit like bunny's deck.
In the current meta playing main deck relic and cages is nice because Karn can turn them into chump blockers if they aren't needed, also I'd recommend tailismins.
As for Lattice I didn't even think of it, I guess as a 1 of hate grab for decks like scapeshift or any game that has stalemated into a grind.
Just having the ability to tutor like that makes me want to slide Jester's Cap back into my sideboard just to destroy random decks.
Pioneer:UR Pheonix
Modern:U Mono U Tron
EDH
GB Glissa, the traitor: Army of Cans
UW Dragonlord Ojutai: Dragonlord NOjutai
UWGDerevi, Empyrial Tactician "you cannot fight the storm"
R Zirilan of the claw. The solution to every problem is dragons
UB Etrata, the Silencer Cloning assassination
Peasant cube: Cards I own
I've been trying out 3 relic of progenitus main on xmage and dumping snapcaster. It feels nice I just don't know yet how good overall it is. I don't have enough data to back it up but winning against Phoenix and dredge definitely feel more achievable.
But the question is .... Is this Karn real or a fake ?
Yeah, I still can't believe the passive ability works like that when Mycosynth Lattice exists. Or then Wizards didn't think it all the way through or the spoiled card doesn't have the mana ability exception written on it.
I don't know if you've guys seen the rumor regarding the new Ugin, but if it is correct I find the card fairly underwhelming for 6 mana, at least when it comes to our needs. It is not really a win con, and it costs a lot for a "manifest" bear factory stapled to a narrower vindicate.
I don't see the cost reduction as particularly powerful in our case because it requires cards for sequencing, Ugin surviving and living long enough to drop him. The card just does not turn the game around on its own like our other finishers.
It is good, but in my estimation, not good enough. I hope its fake.
Towards Gemstone Caverns and 23 Lands: I remember the spreadsheet some pages back with the related win percentage for most cards, and if I recall it right, the Caverns is a 3-4% boost, depending on how many times we are on the draw. I won a short tournament a while back because I always had it when I was on the draw. And with 2 Talisman of Dominance which either ramp for a T3 Karn (or even Ugin with natural Tron - happened!) and growing the Constructs while providing colored mana, 23 Lands are enough.
Greetings
Pioneer:UR Pheonix
Modern:U Mono U Tron
EDH
GB Glissa, the traitor: Army of Cans
UW Dragonlord Ojutai: Dragonlord NOjutai
UWGDerevi, Empyrial Tactician "you cannot fight the storm"
R Zirilan of the claw. The solution to every problem is dragons
UB Etrata, the Silencer Cloning assassination
Peasant cube: Cards I own
Mobilized District is Definitely an interesting card but I don't if thats the kind of control deck we are. Adding a colorless land that doesn't inherently progress our plan (e.g. cards like field of ruin, tectonic edge, gemstone caverns, academy ruins)are pretty hard to play if we are trying to stay alive. If mishra's factory is printed in modern horizons I'd be more interested in that. The activation cost always costing 1 vs 4 (most of the time) is a real cost. Even if factory was legal in modern I still doubt we would play it. Typically decks that are proactive in destroying the opponents hand or game plan are more likely to play aggressively slanted lands. We see this in legacy standstill,pox, sometimes 4c loam or D&T. Modern 8rack, GBx, merfolk. We have more maindeck win condtions than the celestial colonnade decks. Perhaps the new Karn lets us try something like this with Mobilized District, but I still don't think we can imitate them well enough for it be a viable strategy in our deck.
I believe it was done by thinkr in here.*
Spreedsheet
Obviously the mana acceleration is nice but is it needed? I cut both of those cards over a year ago and haven't missed them. The data did trend towards caverns being good but not significantly. That spreadsheet currently having it at .31% overall win increase and talisman and a actually 0%. If we go based on this treasure mage and snapcaster mage both have significant negative correlations of losing when in the opening hand. (snapcaster less so).
*Please tell me if I am interpreting the data wrong. I'd rather be wrong and know about it, rather than wrong and not.