I really wanted to fit in an engineered explosives in the main deck, since I still have a trinket package in the main but its too risky to move O Stone to the side.
Jester's cap and mycosynth lattice are now a lot better if we can fetch them when we need them with the new Karn. Only 1 mindslaver but new Karn can grab it back from exile.
Howdy.
I am on a long journey to settle finally down with one modern deck (played mostly jank + burn + ad nauseam) and UTron is high on my list at the moment.
I am mostly playing on Mtg online and here is my question:
How painful/hard is it to play this deck against the clock? Considering the mindslaver lock finish too.
Same goes for paper magic, but before investing in paper, I will play on mtgo anyways.
PS: I was very impressed and a little surprised with the content to this deck, the overall quality on the primers
and from the fan-/playerbase is pretty high.
In my experience the Talismans are really relevant for manafixing, discarding, accidental ramp and baby Karn. On one hand this is self evident, but on the other it isn't - people routinely underestimate how these small edges add up.
The deck has definite chinks in its armor in mana, speed, and at times being forced to make suboptimal Thirst decisions (without artifacts). The talismans are not going to take it to the next level but they definitely improve it.
If you exchange them for good answers a la 4 Chalice (presuming 2 main) or 2 removal spells, the deck still works of course but its a lopsided compromise. Some games you will crush by having the correct answer, others you will have a 0 value card in hand.
The Talismans are sometimes a 0 value card in hand, but rarely so, and sometimes just the thing you need.
I believe Shoktroopa was correct in not opting for the sort of hard control that overloads on answers - the way UW attempts to play in Modern or the way Esper is now in Standard. The card quality is just not there in modern in Mono U + Colorless + Phyrexian mana, which is what we have at our disposal.
You can play it of course, just like you can play anything else in Modern, but I don't believe it is the all around best version of the deck. I have watched Pierakor and Shoktroopa play their lists for dozens upon dozens of hours and Shok's deck is just more consistently flexible. He is the better player of course, but that is besides the point - with Pie I find that he either wins hard or loses hard, which is how I envision his deck working in the first place, based on the card choices he makes.
I believe Shoktroopa was correct in not opting for the sort of hard control that overloads on answers - the way UW attempts to play in Modern or the way Esper is now in Standard. The card quality is just not there in modern in Mono U + Colorless + Phyrexian mana, which is what we have at our disposal.
You can play it of course, just like you can play anything else in Modern, but I don't believe it is the all around best version of the deck. I have watched Pierakor and Shoktroopa play their lists for dozens upon dozens of hours and Shok's deck is just more consistently flexible. He is the better player of course, but that is besides the point - with Pie I find that he either wins hard or loses hard, which is how I envision his deck working in the first place, based on the card choices he makes.
I see you did a lot of research here, so you are probably right, but man i hate tapping out on turn 2 to cast Talisman of Dominance! Opp is probably going to make a huge play on their turn (after all, many Modern games are decided in turn 2 or 3) and then i can't react to it.
Anyway, new version of the deck featuring Karn, the Great Creator will probably be more similar to Shoktroopa's, so I better get accustomed to those talismans
Btw I like this Shoktroopa's vs Pierakor's version of the deck debate, keep it going
Howdy.
I am on a long journey to settle finally down with one modern deck (played mostly jank + burn + ad nauseam) and UTron is high on my list at the moment.
I am mostly playing on Mtg online and here is my question:
How painful/hard is it to play this deck against the clock? Considering the mindslaver lock finish too.
Same goes for paper magic, but before investing in paper, I will play on mtgo anyways.
PS: I was very impressed and a little surprised with the content to this deck, the overall quality on the primers
and from the fan-/playerbase is pretty high.
It's not that hard to play against the clock, I play this deck in paper and on xmage. I play with a 30min clock on xmage and even in a control mirror I normally have 10minutes left on my clock when the game ends (opp with less). In paper people usually concede to the mindslaver lock. Its kind of like the looping teferi rule in standard but you can call a judge and say this is the only action I'll do for the rest of the game, They should award you the game if you are not in extra turns.
Welcome to the deck though if you decide to pick it up It's a fun and rewarding deck to master. As you have also seen there is a ton of different ways to build it, all with their varying levels of upsides and downsides.
I believe Shoktroopa was correct in not opting for the sort of hard control that overloads on answers - the way UW attempts to play in Modern or the way Esper is now in Standard. The card quality is just not there in modern in Mono U + Colorless + Phyrexian mana, which is what we have at our disposal.
You can play it of course, just like you can play anything else in Modern, but I don't believe it is the all around best version of the deck. I have watched Pierakor and Shoktroopa play their lists for dozens upon dozens of hours and Shok's deck is just more consistently flexible. He is the better player of course, but that is besides the point - with Pie I find that he either wins hard or loses hard, which is how I envision his deck working in the first place, based on the card choices he makes.
I see you did a lot of research here, so you are probably right, but man i hate tapping out on turn 2 to cast Talisman of Dominance! Opp is probably going to make a huge play on their turn (after all, many Modern games are decided in turn 2 or 3) and then i can't react to it.
Anyway, new version of the deck featuring Karn, the Great Creator will probably be more similar to Shoktroopa's, so I better get accustomed to those talismans
Btw I like this Shoktroopa's vs Pierakor's version of the deck debate, keep it going
Yeah, I hated tapping out turn 2 for a talisman and then only having the one mana on my opponents turn 2 or 3. After cutting them over year and a half ago, I don't miss them and have replaced talisman with better cards. My usual pitch to TFK is walking ballista or Mindslaver because they have higher upside late game but in certain matchups useless and better off in the yard.
Well, with 2 talisman in the deck, having them be the on curve play is not that likely. If I play them, its often when they ramp but don't interrupt my ability to respond, like T3 when you have remand in hand, T4, T5.
In all honesty, I am hoping for cards in Modern Horizon that are so powerful and/or flexible that we are forced into less concessions while deckbuilding, and the Talismans are of course, a concession of a sort. But so are the 2 Dismembers or 2 Chalice, you might play in their place..
+1: Exile the top card of your library face down and look at it. Create a 2/2 colorless Spirit creature token. When that token leaves the battlefield, put the exiled card in your hand.
-3: Destroy target permanent that is one or more colors.
4 starting loyalty
Blockers, card advantage, cost reduction (not super applicable), removal. The mana cost is a little awkward- it’s not cheap enough to be played without tron like baby karn, but doesn’t stabilize like big ugin or mindslaver. Worth a test tho imo.
I think if this Ugin costed 5 and had one more loyalty it'd be playable. The delayed card draw is okay, and a 2/2 blocker/attacker is nothing to scoff at. He is kinda comparable to Gideon, Ally of Zendikar in this regard. But since we don't always have tron by turn 3, even turn 4 sometimes he is considerably worse. I don't think we'll get as much out of the static ability as much as decks like eldrazi Tron, or probably legacy decks.
I think he might be worth testing but probably isn't a good fit in our deck. Just seems a little slow for us.
Seems like he does pretty much nothing for us. He is no better than regular Ugin against most decks (in fact, substantially worse), lacking in the ability to control the board on entry, with a useful but not game winning ability - at least not quickly enough (the draw bear creation) and a discount effect that is not too good for us, while coming it at a mana cost that we can already use to play (some of our) directly game winning cards.
I like it however the earliest to pop it is T4 without talisman and it can't pop tokens. And with talsimans, you risk the fact of blowing up your own talismans at 2 counters. But I do like it not sure if better vs ee. I will get some and play test for sure!
Oh it's definitely not better than EE it's just another potential utility land. I'm excited to try it. Hopefully it's good but it not hitting zero cmc is a definite downside.
Yeah, that's a definite include. It's slow (too slow for a lot of aggro) but having access to it is a big deal particular when you end up in situations like getting beaten to death by snapcasters after you sided out your mass removal.
@Form_of_Orca
Because of tutors and drawing you end up being able to find what you need in most matchups if they get longer. At least that's how it works with the traditional lists. That lists with sundering titan, platinum angel, etc are tailored to work as a toolbox
Some people nowadays are playing with many wurmcoil engine and walking ballista to counter the aggro meta, so that means less 1 of's.
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Modern:
Mono red burn with goblin guides
Mono U tron
Pili-pala combo
Mono Black control
UW control (Old, non miracles version)
EDH:
Mono black reanimator erebos
Freeform:
Mono Chancellor of the Dross
I took a 5-6 months break from MTG and I'm (partially) back. I noticed that all of my posts went deleted (dunno why), hope most of you still remember me and my schizoid lists. I'm not yet in the game, once again, because I managed to find a good balance in my life and Time is a harsh component of it. But, every now and then, I will take a short break and come here to discuss about our favourite game.
What I wanted to say.
If people still remember me, you should be aware of this: I was the first huge proponent of maindecks high on Dismember, Ballista and no Chalices. I do think I was right, and my previous win ratio confirmed it (last time I played, half a year ago, I had a 71% win rate overall). When I was back, though, I noticed the metagame changed quite a bit. There are Phoenixes everywhere, Dredge is a thing again, Burn percentage increased, Grixis Shadow had a comeback. Chalices in this metagame is HUGE. Walking Ballista, which I adore, became a huge "spend here your excess mana" from the "play it and devastate opponent's little creatures" it was in the past. When Affinity was Affinity instead of Hardened Scales and Elves were rampant, I had them in the deck even if they were "bad" against anything else, because Ballistas were winning those two games by themselves. Now, I find them pretty much underwhelming. Not "bad", just "a spot that could be something more impactful". Same goes for Dismember. It's - finally - the time for me to switch to Spatial Contortion. With Burn, Phoenixes & Hardened Scales running rampant, I feel like it's the correct choice. That said, I'm still unsure about this last point. I yet have to make real tests, putting aside one small tournament.
For the first time ever, I'm willing to play baby Karn. Without Talismans, of course (you all should know what I think about them). Guess what? I'm liking the four planeswalkers configuration a lot. From the printing of Assassin's Trophy I felt like we needed to up the count of our walkers. The deck is now working way better than before when it comes to fight opponents that are eager to kill our Tron lands. Having three Wurmcoils plus 2 Karns as "linear, efficient threats" (plus the two big Ugin) makes postboard games way more playable than before. AND, it really helps a lot vs Control, cause lately (before taking a break) I had very good results against the field, but UW and Jeskai made a meatball out of me, after all the goodies WOTC printed.
How my tests went.
Last week I tried to enter a tournament with the old list. Steamrolled by Burn, Phoenix & Miracles, while winning against Humans, for the final 1-3. I took changes, and that's the result:
Round1// Jeskai Delver 2-0
Chalice of the Void really shines here. Geist was a huge problem, having less blockers than before, but Chalice#1 locks them out of half spells (even more) and I was able to chain Remand into Remand into Tron both games before ultimating Ugin.
Round2// Naya Burn 2-1
On the draw. Won game one thanks to Chalice#1 into a pair of Contortion, then I proceed to counter everything until I ultimate Ugin again. Game two he has turn three the same amount of Guides on the field. Game three I'm able to chain a pair of Remands on his Eidolon until I hardcast a Wurmcoil on turn six.
Round3// UR Phoenix 2-0
Chalice#1 won me the first game. Relic + Dismember on Thing won me the second.
Round4// BG Goodstuff 2-0
Karn actually did it in both games. We traded resources for a bit, he tried to keep me out of Tron on the first, but I end up being refuelled constantly by Karn until I hit a Slaver. In the second game he has Trophy into Fulminator into Fulminator into double Field of Ruin activation. I keep killing his stuff with Dismember and Contortion, then I slam Karn into Wurmcoil into another Wurmcoil and laugh.
----
How's the deck positioned?
Can't say for sure. I tested a little bit in the last two weeks, against all the forms of Tron (Gx, Eldrazi), UR Storm, Humans, Hardened Scales, Phoenix, Burn (Mardu, Boros, Naya). It still seems to have plenty of games against those strategies (with Hardened Scales being, by far, the worse between them). Had a 45-55 ratio against G-Tron, 40-60 against HS Affinity, 55+/% against the others.
I'm thinking about fourth Chalice in the main, and I'd like to have one Commit too. Crucible in the side seems to be in a good spot, but dunno what to take out for it.
I apologize in case I forgot how to write in English, please bear with it. I hope you all can find this analysis interesting.
I forgot: sorry for the double post, but I wanted to make clear other statements.
While I'm 100% sure on wanting Chalices maindeck and Karn being super duper, I'm (once again) sceptical on Spatial/Dismember. There are three maindeck spots. Now, I was considering some of the most common decks, and wondering if playing more bounce spells wouldn't be actually better. Let's see a little comparison:
Burn: Mostly, you want either to play Chalice or stall them enough in order to cast Wurmcoil. Secondary plan is to assemblate Tron + Slaver or Ugin counterspells. Spatial is good, but not incredibly good. Dismember is too risky. Repeal is actually insane vs their little creatures, cause it's almost like a Spatial + cantrip if they can't cast all the cards in their hand in the same turn. It's worse against Eidolon, obviously.
UR Phoenix: Here, the argument is very similar to the previous one. But bounce spells are almost always better than removal, expecially when Thing in the Ice is involved.
Eldrazi Tron: Dismember is the best overall, not even close. Spatial does close to nothing.
Humans: They are all useful and needed in different contexts.
HS Affinity: They are all effective, but I value bounce spells more due to the pump effects.
Grixis Shadow: Bounce spells are strictly superior to Spatial Contortion. Dismember is very effective on Delve spells, usually poor (and risky) on Shadow.
GBx: Depends on the list. All of them are good spells.
-------------
Now, seeing this. I didn't bring the cases where they are just poor. But, when that happens, Repeal at least cycles himself on a random Chalice on 0 - which we play in multiples. Aren't bounce spells the most versatile, right now?
I was, then, thinking about running a full bounce + sweepers suite (my first love, I missed you so much!).
Oblivion Stone & Chalice of the Void aren't in conflict with each other. Often if one is good, the other is meh, and can be Thirst fodder. If it isn't the case, the deck is Black or Blue based, and against their permission we are going to fight for either, so even resolving one of them is already fine.
a) If I play heavy on bounce spells, I need space for removals in the sideboard. That means playing Surgicals again - they double as grave hate & Tron/Control utilities. I don't see them as a dissinergy with Chalices, cause we already play few cc1. Against Ux Control I usually shave on Maps anyway, while against Tron you mostly care about having at least one of the two online as soon as possible. Tormod's isn't bad per se, but the lack of cantripping effect prevents me from choosing it. At this point, I would rather play some amount of Ravenous Trap. Relic is, IMHO, the best grave hate we can play, but it comes with a cost (I'm only running them when I have space for Spreading Seas, Nimble Obstructionist or Thought-Knot Seer in the sideboard).
b) Chalice isn't an autowin, obviously. But it becomes quickly a game-winner play when we use other stuff to complement it. What I like in this shell is the fact it's never really useless. Other than the obvious "discard to Thirst" argument, we also have to consider how good are little Karn's tokens with "dead" spells in the midgame. Let's suppose we already have Tron + Ruins, and we're playing some deck against whom Chalice is bad. Cast it on zero, play Map, start making 3/3 and 4/4 in a pair of turns. Isn't it cool? I mostly use Karn for digging in the library, but it's also an efficient closer when you have enough cheap artifacts in play.
c) I played with 4 Oblivion Stone and without any in the 75. I'm very experienced with the card, and I know I'm not running less than one at the moment. But two is probably the best number, in this field where there are lots of tokens and go-wide strategies. I won my fair share of games against Dredge simply by assembling O-Stone + Ruins and Remanding their Conflagrates. HS Affinity is a difficult match-up without any real sweeper, cause Ballista (which I don't play anymore) is truly ineffective against them (while it was an absolute beast against classic Affinity). There are more and more permanents that we have to deal with (lots of planeswalkers, Azcanta, Sphere, the usual Moons...) and they can handle ALL of them at the same time. Mardu Pyromancer is a good match-up if we run enough sweepers, otherwise it's kinda difficult. IMHO is a card that could be either good or bad against most strategies, but let's also remember that we run Thirst and lots of cantrips. IMHO it's needed. I don't know about the second copy, it could be something else (I'm looking forward to try a single Commit) but I also like having 14 artifacts for the times when Chalices are bad and I have to cut them entirely.
Anyway, If I decide to cut the second O-Stone, I would probably play the fourth Chalice maindeck.
d) We adopt the same strategy vs BG. I tend to keep in Maps - just because I already have a good maindeck setting and I don't want to cut too many artifacts - but the strategy is the same. I use Maps as a fodder for Thirst most of the time, instead of actually playing them. Wurmcoil + little Karn + removals is how I win most sb games against Black based. I sideboard out three Chalices, two Rift and one Map/Slaver to bring in 3 Dismember and 3 Spatial. That's it. Sometimes I also bring a Negate in spite of the fourth Remand.
I may be the last Samurai, but I do think that Remand-Repeal-Condescend provide us the best digging force, cause interaction + scry/It cantrip has always been the purest form of what U Tron represents.
Ghost Quarter isn't there specifically because of Tron - I want to have access to all the three manahate lands, they are the best depending on the context. Ghost Quarter is crucial whenever we are facing things such as Cavern (and we need to eliminate it asap while being open for a counterspell) or to face manlands from Infect&Affinity. Tectonic Edge is a beast against Scapeshift and Control (playing with their mana total). Field of Ruin is the most versatile, and it earned its slot by providing us a blue source after activation. Anyway, I do believe your Tron mu is good: you're currently running three copies of Spreading Seas and a Crucible, it's obvious that you don't need Surgical. It would probably be overboarding.
Mardu Pyromancer has always been a great pairing, unless we lack sweepers. That's what I was saying. I played Ballista in multiples when I was low on O-Stone, and it worked well. If we do shave both of them, though, we could be in trouble.
Commit/Memory is flexibility. I yet have to find a spot for it (and I probably won't in the near future) but the ability to act as either a removal or a counterspell is huge. So it is going for Timetwister when the time calls.
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2 Walking ballista
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Trinket Mage
2 Wurmcoil Engine
Artifacts (10)
1 chalice of the void
4 expedition map
1 relic of progenitus
3 Talisman of dominance
1 oblivion stone
Instants (16)
3 condescend
3 repeal
3 remand
1 cyclonic rift
1 spatial contortion
3 thirst for knowledge
1 supreme will
1 Dismember
1 Karn, scion of Urza
2 Karn, The Great creator
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
Land (23)
12 tron lands
6 Island
2 Field of ruin
1 Academy Ruins
1 River of Tears
1 Gemstone caverns
2 Grafdigger's cage
1 Surgical extraction
1 relic of progenitus
2 Spatial Contortion
1 Dismember
1 Platinum Angel
1 Sundering Titan
1 Mindslaver
1 Ghost quarter
2 Aetherise
1 Jester's cap
1 Mycosynth Lattice
I really wanted to fit in an engineered explosives in the main deck, since I still have a trinket package in the main but its too risky to move O Stone to the side.
Jester's cap and mycosynth lattice are now a lot better if we can fetch them when we need them with the new Karn. Only 1 mindslaver but new Karn can grab it back from exile.
Pioneer:UR Pheonix
Modern:U Mono U Tron
EDH
GB Glissa, the traitor: Army of Cans
UW Dragonlord Ojutai: Dragonlord NOjutai
UWGDerevi, Empyrial Tactician "you cannot fight the storm"
R Zirilan of the claw. The solution to every problem is dragons
UB Etrata, the Silencer Cloning assassination
Peasant cube: Cards I own
I am on a long journey to settle finally down with one modern deck (played mostly jank + burn + ad nauseam) and UTron is high on my list at the moment.
I am mostly playing on Mtg online and here is my question:
How painful/hard is it to play this deck against the clock? Considering the mindslaver lock finish too.
Same goes for paper magic, but before investing in paper, I will play on mtgo anyways.
PS: I was very impressed and a little surprised with the content to this deck, the overall quality on the primers
and from the fan-/playerbase is pretty high.
The deck has definite chinks in its armor in mana, speed, and at times being forced to make suboptimal Thirst decisions (without artifacts). The talismans are not going to take it to the next level but they definitely improve it.
If you exchange them for good answers a la 4 Chalice (presuming 2 main) or 2 removal spells, the deck still works of course but its a lopsided compromise. Some games you will crush by having the correct answer, others you will have a 0 value card in hand.
The Talismans are sometimes a 0 value card in hand, but rarely so, and sometimes just the thing you need.
I believe Shoktroopa was correct in not opting for the sort of hard control that overloads on answers - the way UW attempts to play in Modern or the way Esper is now in Standard. The card quality is just not there in modern in Mono U + Colorless + Phyrexian mana, which is what we have at our disposal.
You can play it of course, just like you can play anything else in Modern, but I don't believe it is the all around best version of the deck. I have watched Pierakor and Shoktroopa play their lists for dozens upon dozens of hours and Shok's deck is just more consistently flexible. He is the better player of course, but that is besides the point - with Pie I find that he either wins hard or loses hard, which is how I envision his deck working in the first place, based on the card choices he makes.
I see you did a lot of research here, so you are probably right, but man i hate tapping out on turn 2 to cast Talisman of Dominance! Opp is probably going to make a huge play on their turn (after all, many Modern games are decided in turn 2 or 3) and then i can't react to it.
Anyway, new version of the deck featuring Karn, the Great Creator will probably be more similar to Shoktroopa's, so I better get accustomed to those talismans
Btw I like this Shoktroopa's vs Pierakor's version of the deck debate, keep it going
WB BW Control
WRB Mardu Nahiri
Modern
UC UTron
RG Karn Metal Ponza
WRB Mardu Nahiri
It's not that hard to play against the clock, I play this deck in paper and on xmage. I play with a 30min clock on xmage and even in a control mirror I normally have 10minutes left on my clock when the game ends (opp with less). In paper people usually concede to the mindslaver lock. Its kind of like the looping teferi rule in standard but you can call a judge and say this is the only action I'll do for the rest of the game, They should award you the game if you are not in extra turns.
Welcome to the deck though if you decide to pick it up
Yeah, I hated tapping out turn 2 for a talisman and then only having the one mana on my opponents turn 2 or 3. After cutting them over year and a half ago, I don't miss them and have replaced talisman with better cards. My usual pitch to TFK is walking ballista or Mindslaver because they have higher upside late game but in certain matchups useless and better off in the yard.
In all honesty, I am hoping for cards in Modern Horizon that are so powerful and/or flexible that we are forced into less concessions while deckbuilding, and the Talismans are of course, a concession of a sort. But so are the 2 Dismembers or 2 Chalice, you might play in their place..
(translation)
Ugin, The Unspeakable
6
Legendary Planeswalker — Ugin
Colorless spells you cast cost 2 less.
+1: Exile the top card of your library face down and look at it. Create a 2/2 colorless Spirit creature token. When that token leaves the battlefield, put the exiled card in your hand.
-3: Destroy target permanent that is one or more colors.
4 starting loyalty
Blockers, card advantage, cost reduction (not super applicable), removal. The mana cost is a little awkward- it’s not cheap enough to be played without tron like baby karn, but doesn’t stabilize like big ugin or mindslaver. Worth a test tho imo.
I think he might be worth testing but probably isn't a good fit in our deck. Just seems a little slow for us.
Explosion Zone* (pending translation)
Explosion zone etbs with 1 counter.
tap: add a colorless
XX tap: put x counters on Explosion zone
3 tap: sac, destroy all nonland permenants with cmc = the number of counters.
This seems extremely strong as a utility land in our deck or Amulet.
Pioneer:UR Pheonix
Modern:U Mono U Tron
EDH
GB Glissa, the traitor: Army of Cans
UW Dragonlord Ojutai: Dragonlord NOjutai
UWGDerevi, Empyrial Tactician "you cannot fight the storm"
R Zirilan of the claw. The solution to every problem is dragons
UB Etrata, the Silencer Cloning assassination
Peasant cube: Cards I own
Because of tutors and drawing you end up being able to find what you need in most matchups if they get longer. At least that's how it works with the traditional lists. That lists with sundering titan, platinum angel, etc are tailored to work as a toolbox
Some people nowadays are playing with many wurmcoil engine and walking ballista to counter the aggro meta, so that means less 1 of's.
Mono red burn with goblin guides
Mono U tron
Pili-pala combo
Mono Black control
UW control (Old, non miracles version)
EDH:
Mono black reanimator erebos
Freeform:
Mono Chancellor of the Dross
I took a 5-6 months break from MTG and I'm (partially) back. I noticed that all of my posts went deleted (dunno why), hope most of you still remember me and my schizoid lists. I'm not yet in the game, once again, because I managed to find a good balance in my life and Time is a harsh component of it. But, every now and then, I will take a short break and come here to discuss about our favourite game.
What I wanted to say.
If people still remember me, you should be aware of this: I was the first huge proponent of maindecks high on Dismember, Ballista and no Chalices. I do think I was right, and my previous win ratio confirmed it (last time I played, half a year ago, I had a 71% win rate overall). When I was back, though, I noticed the metagame changed quite a bit. There are Phoenixes everywhere, Dredge is a thing again, Burn percentage increased, Grixis Shadow had a comeback. Chalices in this metagame is HUGE. Walking Ballista, which I adore, became a huge "spend here your excess mana" from the "play it and devastate opponent's little creatures" it was in the past. When Affinity was Affinity instead of Hardened Scales and Elves were rampant, I had them in the deck even if they were "bad" against anything else, because Ballistas were winning those two games by themselves. Now, I find them pretty much underwhelming. Not "bad", just "a spot that could be something more impactful". Same goes for Dismember. It's - finally - the time for me to switch to Spatial Contortion. With Burn, Phoenixes & Hardened Scales running rampant, I feel like it's the correct choice. That said, I'm still unsure about this last point. I yet have to make real tests, putting aside one small tournament.
What did I try.
1x Academy Ruins
1x Field of Ruin
1x Ghost Quarter
7x Island
2x River of Tears
4x Urza's Mine
4x Urza's Power Plant
4x Urza's Tower
3x Chalice of the Void
4x Expedition Map
2x Mindslaver
1x Oblivion Stone
3x Wurmcoil Engine
Instant (19)
4x Condescend
4x Remand
1x Cyclonic Rift
3x Spatial Contortion
3x Repeal
4x Thirst for Knowledge
2x Karn, Scion of Urza
2x Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
For the first time ever, I'm willing to play baby Karn. Without Talismans, of course (you all should know what I think about them). Guess what? I'm liking the four planeswalkers configuration a lot. From the printing of Assassin's Trophy I felt like we needed to up the count of our walkers. The deck is now working way better than before when it comes to fight opponents that are eager to kill our Tron lands. Having three Wurmcoils plus 2 Karns as "linear, efficient threats" (plus the two big Ugin) makes postboard games way more playable than before. AND, it really helps a lot vs Control, cause lately (before taking a break) I had very good results against the field, but UW and Jeskai made a meatball out of me, after all the goodies WOTC printed.
How my tests went.
Last week I tried to enter a tournament with the old list. Steamrolled by Burn, Phoenix & Miracles, while winning against Humans, for the final 1-3. I took changes, and that's the result:
Round1// Jeskai Delver 2-0
Chalice of the Void really shines here. Geist was a huge problem, having less blockers than before, but Chalice#1 locks them out of half spells (even more) and I was able to chain Remand into Remand into Tron both games before ultimating Ugin.
Round2// Naya Burn 2-1
On the draw. Won game one thanks to Chalice#1 into a pair of Contortion, then I proceed to counter everything until I ultimate Ugin again. Game two he has turn three the same amount of Guides on the field. Game three I'm able to chain a pair of Remands on his Eidolon until I hardcast a Wurmcoil on turn six.
Round3// UR Phoenix 2-0
Chalice#1 won me the first game. Relic + Dismember on Thing won me the second.
Round4// BG Goodstuff 2-0
Karn actually did it in both games. We traded resources for a bit, he tried to keep me out of Tron on the first, but I end up being refuelled constantly by Karn until I hit a Slaver. In the second game he has Trophy into Fulminator into Fulminator into double Field of Ruin activation. I keep killing his stuff with Dismember and Contortion, then I slam Karn into Wurmcoil into another Wurmcoil and laugh.
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How's the deck positioned?
Can't say for sure. I tested a little bit in the last two weeks, against all the forms of Tron (Gx, Eldrazi), UR Storm, Humans, Hardened Scales, Phoenix, Burn (Mardu, Boros, Naya). It still seems to have plenty of games against those strategies (with Hardened Scales being, by far, the worse between them). Had a 45-55 ratio against G-Tron, 40-60 against HS Affinity, 55+/% against the others.
I'm thinking about fourth Chalice in the main, and I'd like to have one Commit too. Crucible in the side seems to be in a good spot, but dunno what to take out for it.
I apologize in case I forgot how to write in English, please bear with it. I hope you all can find this analysis interesting.
While I'm 100% sure on wanting Chalices maindeck and Karn being super duper, I'm (once again) sceptical on Spatial/Dismember. There are three maindeck spots. Now, I was considering some of the most common decks, and wondering if playing more bounce spells wouldn't be actually better. Let's see a little comparison:
Burn: Mostly, you want either to play Chalice or stall them enough in order to cast Wurmcoil. Secondary plan is to assemblate Tron + Slaver or Ugin counterspells. Spatial is good, but not incredibly good. Dismember is too risky. Repeal is actually insane vs their little creatures, cause it's almost like a Spatial + cantrip if they can't cast all the cards in their hand in the same turn. It's worse against Eidolon, obviously.
UR Phoenix: Here, the argument is very similar to the previous one. But bounce spells are almost always better than removal, expecially when Thing in the Ice is involved.
Eldrazi Tron: Dismember is the best overall, not even close. Spatial does close to nothing.
Humans: They are all useful and needed in different contexts.
HS Affinity: They are all effective, but I value bounce spells more due to the pump effects.
Grixis Shadow: Bounce spells are strictly superior to Spatial Contortion. Dismember is very effective on Delve spells, usually poor (and risky) on Shadow.
GBx: Depends on the list. All of them are good spells.
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Now, seeing this. I didn't bring the cases where they are just poor. But, when that happens, Repeal at least cycles himself on a random Chalice on 0 - which we play in multiples. Aren't bounce spells the most versatile, right now?
I was, then, thinking about running a full bounce + sweepers suite (my first love, I missed you so much!).
Instead of:
3 Repeal
1 Cyclonic Rift
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
1 Oblivion Stone
2 Cyclonic Rift
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
2 Oblivion Stone
Oblivion Stone & Chalice of the Void aren't in conflict with each other. Often if one is good, the other is meh, and can be Thirst fodder. If it isn't the case, the deck is Black or Blue based, and against their permission we are going to fight for either, so even resolving one of them is already fine.
What do you guys think about this?
First thing first, I'll post the list I'm currently running, so that we can talk about facts.
1x Academy Ruins
1x Field of Ruin
1x Ghost Quarter
7x Island
2x River of Tears
4x Urza's Mine
4x Urza's Power Plant
4x Urza's Tower
3x Chalice of the Void
4x Expedition Map
2x Mindslaver
2x Oblivion Stone
3x Wurmcoil Engine
Instant (18)
4x Condescend
4x Remand
2x Cyclonic Rift
4x Repeal
4x Thirst for Knowledge
2x Karn, Scion of Urza
2x Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
Now, these are my points:
a) If I play heavy on bounce spells, I need space for removals in the sideboard. That means playing Surgicals again - they double as grave hate & Tron/Control utilities. I don't see them as a dissinergy with Chalices, cause we already play few cc1. Against Ux Control I usually shave on Maps anyway, while against Tron you mostly care about having at least one of the two online as soon as possible. Tormod's isn't bad per se, but the lack of cantripping effect prevents me from choosing it. At this point, I would rather play some amount of Ravenous Trap. Relic is, IMHO, the best grave hate we can play, but it comes with a cost (I'm only running them when I have space for Spreading Seas, Nimble Obstructionist or Thought-Knot Seer in the sideboard).
b) Chalice isn't an autowin, obviously. But it becomes quickly a game-winner play when we use other stuff to complement it. What I like in this shell is the fact it's never really useless. Other than the obvious "discard to Thirst" argument, we also have to consider how good are little Karn's tokens with "dead" spells in the midgame. Let's suppose we already have Tron + Ruins, and we're playing some deck against whom Chalice is bad. Cast it on zero, play Map, start making 3/3 and 4/4 in a pair of turns. Isn't it cool? I mostly use Karn for digging in the library, but it's also an efficient closer when you have enough cheap artifacts in play.
c) I played with 4 Oblivion Stone and without any in the 75. I'm very experienced with the card, and I know I'm not running less than one at the moment. But two is probably the best number, in this field where there are lots of tokens and go-wide strategies. I won my fair share of games against Dredge simply by assembling O-Stone + Ruins and Remanding their Conflagrates. HS Affinity is a difficult match-up without any real sweeper, cause Ballista (which I don't play anymore) is truly ineffective against them (while it was an absolute beast against classic Affinity). There are more and more permanents that we have to deal with (lots of planeswalkers, Azcanta, Sphere, the usual Moons...) and they can handle ALL of them at the same time. Mardu Pyromancer is a good match-up if we run enough sweepers, otherwise it's kinda difficult. IMHO is a card that could be either good or bad against most strategies, but let's also remember that we run Thirst and lots of cantrips. IMHO it's needed. I don't know about the second copy, it could be something else (I'm looking forward to try a single Commit) but I also like having 14 artifacts for the times when Chalices are bad and I have to cut them entirely.
Anyway, If I decide to cut the second O-Stone, I would probably play the fourth Chalice maindeck.
d) We adopt the same strategy vs BG. I tend to keep in Maps - just because I already have a good maindeck setting and I don't want to cut too many artifacts - but the strategy is the same. I use Maps as a fodder for Thirst most of the time, instead of actually playing them. Wurmcoil + little Karn + removals is how I win most sb games against Black based. I sideboard out three Chalices, two Rift and one Map/Slaver to bring in 3 Dismember and 3 Spatial. That's it. Sometimes I also bring a Negate in spite of the fourth Remand.
Ghost Quarter isn't there specifically because of Tron - I want to have access to all the three manahate lands, they are the best depending on the context. Ghost Quarter is crucial whenever we are facing things such as Cavern (and we need to eliminate it asap while being open for a counterspell) or to face manlands from Infect&Affinity. Tectonic Edge is a beast against Scapeshift and Control (playing with their mana total). Field of Ruin is the most versatile, and it earned its slot by providing us a blue source after activation. Anyway, I do believe your Tron mu is good: you're currently running three copies of Spreading Seas and a Crucible, it's obvious that you don't need Surgical. It would probably be overboarding.
Mardu Pyromancer has always been a great pairing, unless we lack sweepers. That's what I was saying. I played Ballista in multiples when I was low on O-Stone, and it worked well. If we do shave both of them, though, we could be in trouble.
Commit/Memory is flexibility. I yet have to find a spot for it (and I probably won't in the near future) but the ability to act as either a removal or a counterspell is huge. So it is going for Timetwister when the time calls.