Mandrils over Tarmogoyf seems like a decent budget move. And Gaze of Granite could be a one-sided Wrath with Tasigur and Hooting in play. Makes me interested to brew, now thinking that Mandrils also won't eat Abrupt decay.
That's the reason I like Mandrills over Goyf. It is harder to remove, since it can't be blasted by an abrupt decay. It also does two things that Tarmogoyf doesn't do: Trample damage through, and make other Goyfs weaker by eating your graveyard.
No, the only reason u like mandrills over goyf is really only budget reasons ^^
@funeral:
If you are going to play visions play 4. Also with so many delve creatures you should consider 2-3 thoughtscour which also lets you play murderous cut.
??? I have 3 thought scour in that list first off. Secondly, why do you think it's a budget call? If I wanted the damn goyfs I'd sell some of my 20 snapcasters or 6 lilianas, or some of my extra revised duals. Budget isn't the concern. Being able to weaken other tarmogoyf, trample, and helping get rid of cards I don't want back with a Tasigur activation are my reasons
Because 1 mana matters against the MU you want to bring in Disfigures. In burn for instance it is good to be able to hold both removal and counter T3, or to be able to deal with Goblin Buide T1. Disfigures are in there for aggressive decks and burn, where every turn and every single mana counts.
Been playing a deck mostly based on Caleb Durward's BUG build for the past few weeks. I have been having positive test experiences with it on Cockatrice (for what that's worth) and took it to FNM this past week (2-2-1). Losses were to Junk and b/w tokens, tie was to b/w tokens as well. I attribute the Junk loss to my own poor strategy, which I'll adjust in future matches. The loss and tie to tokens really hurt, however. Its tough to 1-1 them and they have seemingly limitless blockers where my deck has no trample or evasion to speak of.
To try and mitigate the general strategy of swarm decks and tighten the build up a bit, I'm trying to following tweaks this week:
Removed:
2 Thought Scour: While it is ok in some matches and can serve as a Dark Ritual for Tasigur, The Golden Fang, I found it to be the first thing boarded out for g2/3. Maybe I'm just not utilizing it properly. Seems that something else in the main would be more effective.
1 Abrupt Decay: Four seems too many, given the amount of permanents that are over 3cmc and the presence of the Snapcaster Mage in the deck.
1 Dismember: This is the change I'm probably on the fence about the most. I'm not sure it should be taken out of the main yet but I'm trying it out.
1 Torrent Elemental: Probably the card I'm most excited by. Can return from exile after having been pitched to Tasigur, the Golden Fang. Main use is in breaking board stalls - so many times I found myself having a Tasigur and Tarmogoyf in play yet could not break through other 4/5 defenders or chump blockers. In testing over the past few days, I'm finding that his attack phase trigger is extremely helpful. He also adds a resiliant flier to a deck that is fairly weak to flying in general.
So far, the MVP of the deck has to be Stubborn Denial. The availability of having a Force Spike that can easily become a Negate in this format is really powerful. It really shines when the opponent knows it is in your deck and has to play around it going forward. I really like that it allows you to land a threat a turn or two earlier and be able to protect it for a single U.
Anyone else trying this flavor of Sultai and / or experiencing the issues I was seeing? If so, how have you been handling them? I kind of like this approach more than the more "counter focused" one that Fabiano's build takes as it suits my play style more.
Does Hooting Mandrils have the potential to out perform a goyf? Yes. Is Goyf the better card most of the time? Yes.
I haven't much experience piloting this deck, but I envision Mandrils being something you drop later (like turns 3-5) when you should have no problem casting it for 1 and keeping mana up for some control magic. (Cryptic, Sultai charm, Mana leak, etc)
From my experience Tron is huge problem for this deck.
Every time I played against Tron I wished I would have been playing White instead. Stuff like Stony Silence or Aven Mindcensor hit their consistency in assembling Tron and Path to Exile is the only removal spell that lets you efficiently deal with Wurmcoil Engine. Having a Maelstrom Pulse or a Damnation in hand while your opponent has two Wurmcoil Engines in play is the worst feeling in the world.
In the last game my opponent ripped in true Tron fashion his third Tron land off the top and played Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre destroying one of my lands. I had literally zero outs to him since he is indestructible.
All your Abrupt Decays are pretty much dead against them and your Mana Leaks are too when they assembled Tron.
All of this coupled with the slowness of the deck makes it a problematic matchup.
If you want to make it better you have to devote quite a bit of sideboard space to it. Something like 2 Fulminator Mages alone won't cut it.
It's honestly one of the reasons why I have put the deck on ice for now.
Tron is a problem for each and every control deck because it plays like a bigger control deck. Whatever we do they do it bigger. Either Sultai, UWR or Cruel Control, Tron shuts them all down to the ground. You can have some dedicated SB slots but you can't do much more. Tron is a pretty low % of the meta game right now so in the big picture Sultai is still a very good deck. I don't think that 1, horrible, MU should restrain you from playing the deck.
Some of the solutions could be 3 Thoughtseizes in the sideboard (cause IOK don't really do the trick), Fulminator mages, Sowers for the Wurmcoil. Also you could run 1 Tec edge on the SB. Game 1 will always be in their favor though.
From my experience Tron is huge problem for this deck.
Every time I played against Tron I wished I would have been playing White instead. Stuff like Stony Silence or Aven Mindcensor hit their consistency in assembling Tron and Path to Exile is the only removal spell that lets you efficiently deal with Wurmcoil Engine. Having a Maelstrom Pulse or a Damnation in hand while your opponent has two Wurmcoil Engines in play is the worst feeling in the world.
In the last game my opponent ripped in true Tron fashion his third Tron land off the top and played Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre destroying one of my lands. I had literally zero outs to him since he is indestructible.
All your Abrupt Decays are pretty much dead against them and your Mana Leaks are too when they assembled Tron.
All of this coupled with the slowness of the deck makes it a problematic matchup.
If you want to make it better you have to devote quite a bit of sideboard space to it. Something like 2 Fulminator Mages alone won't cut it.
It's honestly one of the reasons why I have put the deck on ice for now.
As long as aggro exists tron will not be a big percentage of the meta. I play control decks only and I do not even bother trying to fix the tron matchup since there are decks that are tier 1 keepping it in check like twin, infect, and burn. In very competitive big tournaments you will most likely be able to dodge it.Abzan has the same problems against tron but it is still the most played deck.
From my experience Tron is huge problem for this deck.
Every time I played against Tron I wished I would have been playing White instead. Stuff like Stony Silence or Aven Mindcensor hit their consistency in assembling Tron and Path to Exile is the only removal spell that lets you efficiently deal with Wurmcoil Engine. Having a Maelstrom Pulse or a Damnation in hand while your opponent has two Wurmcoil Engines in play is the worst feeling in the world.
In the last game my opponent ripped in true Tron fashion his third Tron land off the top and played Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre destroying one of my lands. I had literally zero outs to him since he is indestructible.
All your Abrupt Decays are pretty much dead against them and your Mana Leaks are too when they assembled Tron.
All of this coupled with the slowness of the deck makes it a problematic matchup.
If you want to make it better you have to devote quite a bit of sideboard space to it. Something like 2 Fulminator Mages alone won't cut it.
It's honestly one of the reasons why I have put the deck on ice for now.
As long as aggro exists tron will not be a big percentage of the meta. I play control decks only and I do not even bother trying to fix the tron matchup since there are decks that are tier 1 keepping it in check like twin, infect, and burn. In very competitive big tournaments you will most likely be able to dodge it.Abzan has the same problems against tron but it is still the most played deck.
Dcovino, No manlands? Damnation is one of the best cards in the deck, you should play a couple in side, its a great card against other BGx decks and Zoo, in my local metagame tron still the problem, you dont have problems with your side against tron?
Yea, no manlands for now. Haven't missed them all that much, honestly, but its on the short list of potential things to include. The curve is so low, with only the 2 Thragtusk and 1 Torrent Elemental being over 3 cmc, that I am trying as hard as possible to not have any lands that come in to play tapped as its typically a non-zero tempo loss.
We have almost zero tron in my area, and if it does show up its MonoU and not RG tron. I would bring in some number of Deglamer, Sower of Temptation, Countersquall, Thoughtseize in from the board as it stands for Tron decks. Admittedly though, given Tron's low percentage of the local meta and the horrid matchup to begin with, its one of those matches that I'm willing to just not consider for the sideboard right now. Obviously, at a larger event than FNM I would take it in to account.
Damnation keeps coming in and out of the board for me - will probably add it back in soon. Its a nice generic answer to so much.
Haven't been impressed with Bile Blight yet. Looking more like its going back to Dismember. Perhaps I will add it (or Damnation) to the board instead as an ancillary sweeper effect. Torrent Elemental continues to shine, however, and fulfilling every expectation I had for the card and its role.
Stubborn Denial seems like an interesting piece of tech. Main deck material in the right meta, but could also be great Sideboard against tron.
Is the value of Torrent Elemental coming only from delving it, then bringing it in? I'm not seeing how a 5 mana 3/4 is pulling it's weight. Surely I'm missing something
Stubborn Denial seems like an interesting piece of tech. Main deck material in the right meta, but could also be great Sideboard against tron.
Is the value of Torrent Elemental coming only from delving it, then bringing it in? I'm not seeing how a 5 mana 3/4 is pulling it's weight. Surely I'm missing something
Stubborn Denial is great on many levels. The 1 mana difference between it and Negate is significant. Allows you to play things on your turn while still holding up the single blue for their t3 Karn.
Delving and bringing Torrent Elemental back is one aspect, with the same applying to path to exile / detention sphere, etc. The main reason I like it is that it allows your team to not care about blockers that may be in your way. Having Tasigur and Tarmogoyf on the board typically means you have the best beaters on your side but if they can't punch through chump blocks, you're going to have a slow time at winning. Torrent Elemental is kind of like having Cryptic Command's tap creatures mode on a stick. Having 5 toughness and flying, it can also block most of the major players in the format if need be.
When I'm playing the deck I am trying to go aggressive and don't want to have to hold back a ton of mana for counters. I also want to inflict as little pain to myself in fixing the mana during the game. For those two reasons I've left Cryptic Command behind and instead use Stubborn Denial and Torrent Elemental. I'm not saying it is any better than Fabiano's approach, but play style comes in to the matrix when discussing card choices.
The Sideboard is a concession to Tron in my area, as Fulminator Mage and Rain of Tears should help a bit. I don't have access to Sower of Temptation, but once I do she will be going in the SB as well.
EDIT: Might find a place for Bile Blight in the SB. maybe -1 Disfigure, -1 Feed the Clan, +2 Bile Blight.
Sultai Charm does not provide card advantage, even if it does filter somewhat. They're different cards.
Private Mod Note
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Yes, I am a local area mod. WELP. GOOD LIFE CHANGES ALL HAPPEN AT ONCE AND SOME ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE
Primary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
Is compulsive research outshined by sultai charm? Or is the general consensus that the triple color requirement is too steep?
I personally think that Sultai Charm is just better than Compulsive Research if you can support the 3 colors and it is also better than Maelstrom Pulse if your meta does not have a lot of Lingering Souls.
Fulminator Mage is a great card for obvious reasons, but is Rain of Tears better here because it can be recurred with Snapcaster Mage?
I see Sultai Charm as a harder to cast Putrefy. It's too slow and expensive for the decks you need it for.
Sultai Charm is more like a harder-to-cast, instant-speed Maelstrom Pulse that doesn't hit Siege Rhino, planeswalkers, or swarms of tokens, but can be cycled if necessary.
Mandrils over Tarmogoyf seems like a decent budget move. And Gaze of Granite could be a one-sided Wrath with Tasigur and Hooting in play. Makes me interested to brew, now thinking that Mandrils also won't eat Abrupt decay.
3 Hooting Mandrils
3 Tasigur, the golden fang
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Thragtusk
1 Vendilion Clique
Spells (26):
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Mana leak
3 Abrupt decay
3 Sultai charm
3 Serum Visions
2 Cryptic Command
2 Gaze of Granite
2 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
1 Dalmatian
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Spell Snare
4 Polluted delta
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Creeping Tar pit
2 Darkslick Shores
2 breeding pool
2 watery grave
1 Overgrown tomb
1 Tectonic Edge
2 Swamp
2 island
1 forest
Draft My Cube!
Modern = RBW Aristocrats (Here's the primer thread I made!)
BGW Endless Renewal ( The primer right here! )
Legacy = UB Stiflenought
??? I have 3 thought scour in that list first off. Secondly, why do you think it's a budget call? If I wanted the damn goyfs I'd sell some of my 20 snapcasters or 6 lilianas, or some of my extra revised duals. Budget isn't the concern. Being able to weaken other tarmogoyf, trample, and helping get rid of cards I don't want back with a Tasigur activation are my reasons
Modern = RBW Aristocrats (Here's the primer thread I made!)
BGW Endless Renewal ( The primer right here! )
Legacy = UB Stiflenought
UB Faeries (15-6-0)
UWR Control (10-5-1)/Kiki Control/Midrange/Harbinger
UBR Cruel Control (6-4-0)/Grixis Control/Delver/Blue Jund
UWB Control/Mentor
UW Miracles/Control (currently active, 14-2-0)
BW Eldrazi & Taxes
RW Burn (9-1-0)
I do (academic) research on video games and archaeology! You can check out my open access book here: https://www.sidestone.com/books/the-interactive-past
To try and mitigate the general strategy of swarm decks and tighten the build up a bit, I'm trying to following tweaks this week:
Removed:
Added:
So far, the MVP of the deck has to be Stubborn Denial. The availability of having a Force Spike that can easily become a Negate in this format is really powerful. It really shines when the opponent knows it is in your deck and has to play around it going forward. I really like that it allows you to land a threat a turn or two earlier and be able to protect it for a single U.
Anyone else trying this flavor of Sultai and / or experiencing the issues I was seeing? If so, how have you been handling them? I kind of like this approach more than the more "counter focused" one that Fabiano's build takes as it suits my play style more.
1x Breeding Pool
1x Darkslick Shores
1x Forest
2x Island
3x Misty Rainforest
2x Overgrown Tomb
4x Polluted Delta
2x Swamp
2x Tectonic Edge
4x Verdant Catacombs
2x Watery Grave
1x Woodland Cemetery
3x Liliana of the Veil
4x Tarmogoyf
3x Tasigur, the Golden Fang
2x Thragtusk
1x Torrent Elemental
3x Abrupt Decay
1x Bile Blight
1x Darkblast
3x Stubborn Denial
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Maelstrom Pulse
4x Serum Visions
2x Thoughtseize
2x Countersquall
1x Creeping Corrosion
1x Night of Soul's Betrayal
1x Deathmark
1x Deglamer
1x Engineered Explosives
2x Feed the Clan
1x Golgari Charm
2x Nihil Spellbomb
2x Sower of Temptation
1x Thoughtseize
I haven't much experience piloting this deck, but I envision Mandrils being something you drop later (like turns 3-5) when you should have no problem casting it for 1 and keeping mana up for some control magic. (Cryptic, Sultai charm, Mana leak, etc)
Draft My Cube!
Every time I played against Tron I wished I would have been playing White instead. Stuff like Stony Silence or Aven Mindcensor hit their consistency in assembling Tron and Path to Exile is the only removal spell that lets you efficiently deal with Wurmcoil Engine. Having a Maelstrom Pulse or a Damnation in hand while your opponent has two Wurmcoil Engines in play is the worst feeling in the world.
In the last game my opponent ripped in true Tron fashion his third Tron land off the top and played Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre destroying one of my lands. I had literally zero outs to him since he is indestructible.
All your Abrupt Decays are pretty much dead against them and your Mana Leaks are too when they assembled Tron.
All of this coupled with the slowness of the deck makes it a problematic matchup.
If you want to make it better you have to devote quite a bit of sideboard space to it. Something like 2 Fulminator Mages alone won't cut it.
It's honestly one of the reasons why I have put the deck on ice for now.
Some of the solutions could be 3 Thoughtseizes in the sideboard (cause IOK don't really do the trick), Fulminator mages, Sowers for the Wurmcoil. Also you could run 1 Tec edge on the SB. Game 1 will always be in their favor though.
UB Faeries (15-6-0)
UWR Control (10-5-1)/Kiki Control/Midrange/Harbinger
UBR Cruel Control (6-4-0)/Grixis Control/Delver/Blue Jund
UWB Control/Mentor
UW Miracles/Control (currently active, 14-2-0)
BW Eldrazi & Taxes
RW Burn (9-1-0)
I do (academic) research on video games and archaeology! You can check out my open access book here: https://www.sidestone.com/books/the-interactive-past
As long as aggro exists tron will not be a big percentage of the meta. I play control decks only and I do not even bother trying to fix the tron matchup since there are decks that are tier 1 keepping it in check like twin, infect, and burn. In very competitive big tournaments you will most likely be able to dodge it.Abzan has the same problems against tron but it is still the most played deck.
Yeah Abzan plays Path to Exile, Stony Silence and Fulminator Mage though. I have a way better Tron matchup with Abzan than with Sultai. It's definitely noticeable.
Yea, no manlands for now. Haven't missed them all that much, honestly, but its on the short list of potential things to include. The curve is so low, with only the 2 Thragtusk and 1 Torrent Elemental being over 3 cmc, that I am trying as hard as possible to not have any lands that come in to play tapped as its typically a non-zero tempo loss.
We have almost zero tron in my area, and if it does show up its MonoU and not RG tron. I would bring in some number of Deglamer, Sower of Temptation, Countersquall, Thoughtseize in from the board as it stands for Tron decks. Admittedly though, given Tron's low percentage of the local meta and the horrid matchup to begin with, its one of those matches that I'm willing to just not consider for the sideboard right now. Obviously, at a larger event than FNM I would take it in to account.
Damnation keeps coming in and out of the board for me - will probably add it back in soon. Its a nice generic answer to so much.
Haven't been impressed with Bile Blight yet. Looking more like its going back to Dismember. Perhaps I will add it (or Damnation) to the board instead as an ancillary sweeper effect. Torrent Elemental continues to shine, however, and fulfilling every expectation I had for the card and its role.
Is the value of Torrent Elemental coming only from delving it, then bringing it in? I'm not seeing how a 5 mana 3/4 is pulling it's weight. Surely I'm missing something
Draft My Cube!
Stubborn Denial is great on many levels. The 1 mana difference between it and Negate is significant. Allows you to play things on your turn while still holding up the single blue for their t3 Karn.
Delving and bringing Torrent Elemental back is one aspect, with the same applying to path to exile / detention sphere, etc. The main reason I like it is that it allows your team to not care about blockers that may be in your way. Having Tasigur and Tarmogoyf on the board typically means you have the best beaters on your side but if they can't punch through chump blocks, you're going to have a slow time at winning. Torrent Elemental is kind of like having Cryptic Command's tap creatures mode on a stick. Having 5 toughness and flying, it can also block most of the major players in the format if need be.
When I'm playing the deck I am trying to go aggressive and don't want to have to hold back a ton of mana for counters. I also want to inflict as little pain to myself in fixing the mana during the game. For those two reasons I've left Cryptic Command behind and instead use Stubborn Denial and Torrent Elemental. I'm not saying it is any better than Fabiano's approach, but play style comes in to the matrix when discussing card choices.
3x Snapcaster Mage
2x Thragtusk
3x Tasigur, the Golden Fang
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Serum Visions
3x Mana Leak
3x Abrupt Decay
2x Cryptic Command
2x Damnation
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Compulsive Research
1x Consume the Meek
1x Thoughtseize
1x Jace, Architect of Thought
23x Lands and stuff
Sideboard
2x Rain of Tears
2x Spellskite
2x Countersquall
3x Disfigure
2x Feed the Clan
1x Night of Souls' Betrayal
1x Nature's Claim
The Sideboard is a concession to Tron in my area, as Fulminator Mage and Rain of Tears should help a bit. I don't have access to Sower of Temptation, but once I do she will be going in the SB as well.
EDIT: Might find a place for Bile Blight in the SB. maybe -1 Disfigure, -1 Feed the Clan, +2 Bile Blight.
Draft My Cube!
I am planning on running tec edge and GQ (we have some tron) so I would not even attempt sultai charm (in my list)
Yes, I am a local area mod.WELP. GOOD LIFE CHANGES ALL HAPPEN AT ONCE AND SOME ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVEPrimary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
I see Sultai Charm as a harder to cast Putrefy. It's too slow and expensive for the decks you need it for.
Sales Thread
I adjusted mine a bit and am running 2x Fulminator and 1x Rain of Tears. Snapcaster into Rain of Tears seems super gross.
I personally think that Sultai Charm is just better than Compulsive Research if you can support the 3 colors and it is also better than Maelstrom Pulse if your meta does not have a lot of Lingering Souls.
Sultai Charm is more like a harder-to-cast, instant-speed Maelstrom Pulse that doesn't hit Siege Rhino, planeswalkers, or swarms of tokens, but can be cycled if necessary.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.