A Few Scrambled Thoughts on my New Archetype & why it's called 'Maximum':
It's a more aggressive breed - threat dense with (14) Creatures. Goblins that spit out 1/1s can kill faster than planeswalkers. And, Eidolons work almost as well as Chalice against spell/combo decks. Bonus: unlike a chalice, they can actually kill. I mean, who ever heard of someone being slapped from 20 to 0 by a cup of dubious dimensions.
Further thought on why (14) inflated count of creatures: Just as mid-range/control decks run out of answers to our creatures, one more pops off the top of the deck to present a hefty threat. No more top decking the dreaded 'hot air': mountains/rituals/abrade. Now, it's multiple ramunaps/mutavaults, less ritual, and no abrade.
Chandra is just right as a (2). Multiples are redundant. And, her immediate damage output is paltry. By dropping her count and moving Eidolon from the SB to the MD, I've freed up a lot of sideboard slots.
Pia and Kiran are terrific against so many decks. They're back! Now, although I am stamping Pyro Prison || Maximum as a 'creature' deck [most we've ever tried], I'm not saying that it can run with the big dogs. (4) Bridge and (3) Sweepers represent a Panic Button when pitted against a creature heavy build.
This deck does Not claim to be able to 'out-creature' a tribal/swarm deck like Humans/Spirits/Elves/Dredge/Hollow One/Merfolk. Hey, if I can get lucky on an early Chalice/Moon to foul them up and overwhelm, great! BUT, if not, then I have to got 'run away! run away! run away! like a knight of King Arthur's Court. That's why there are 4 bridges, 3 sweepers, and the swiss army knife of 1 Piran.
Maximum, not for its speed, but for the fact that it added the 4th Wall to our coveted prison: Eidolon of the Great Revel.
Stop the Spell-Based Combo decks and Storm alike! Lock 'Em Up!!!!!!
hi prisioners i have a question, how u resolve against phyrexian unlife and solemnity ?
Dreadscabal, the long and short of it is that in most of the current builds we do not run a way to kill someone with solemnity and unlife out. Your best bet when you see this deck is to not draw anything with Chandra and try to mill them out game 1, then kill them fast game 2/3. Following the Rayfathers footsteps, I ran 1 Word of Seizing for a little bit in the board, it can take a Phyrexian Unlife while they’re at 0 life and they’ll die instantly. I added it mostly because I have 2 white devotion decks that are played once in a while in my area, but I never found a reason to bring it in most games so it got cut.
hi prisioners i have a question, how u resolve against phyrexian unlife and solemnity ?
Unfortunately for such a matchup, I would argue you just concede unless they have less cards then you do in the deck, in which case you can just work to prevent them from beating you. In paper you can simply count cards in deck and make them aware of this as your win condition now. Online just play quickly if you see you have more cards. This allows you to see another win condition, and if they have one other then a 'hard lock' - You have no obligation to scoop to a deck you believe has no win condition.
You'll see in the search I am searching for Red, Modern Legal, with cards that have "Enchantmnet" in the rule text. Obviously "Wear and Tear" does not show, which could be an out if you are dabbling with the concept of "White Pyro" which has been discussed very briefly in our discord. The White strictly for things like Rest in Peace (and the ability to cast if to avoid needing to play Leyline of the Void and hoping to spike in the opener).
Otherwise, we just don't have anything for it :(. Ratchet Bomb could be used if you are able to have it in the opener, and get it to 3 before a Solemnity shows up. If it is a local meta deck then I would actually advise you to splash a color. At a large GP I can't say you'd see this deck archtype that often.
Has anyone tried running eternal scourge instead of warboss? It seems like it has good synergy with gemstone and is a good chump block for walkers. An extra benefit is making them think you're on Eldrazi stompy in the opening turns
Played the 8 Rabble version at GP Oakland. Started 4–1 then lost two straight to miss out on Day 2. :/
R1: Beat UR Phoenix 2-1
R2: Beat Elves 2-0
R3: Beat KCI 2-1
R4: Lost to Thopter-Sword Prison 1-2
R5: Beat Elves 2-1
R6: Lost to Storm 1-2
R7: Lost to Scapeshift 0-2 (this matchup seems miserable if you can’t find Blood Moon)
Aside from Scapeshift, all my losses were very close. Scapeshift always killed me the turn before I had lethal.
So this is my attempt on the deck and it plays really good vs moderndecks - beside that I lost every match vs Standarddecks (Jeskai Control, Grixis Control) which wasnt that great... but I had a lot of fun
I have some questions:
- Ensnaring Bridge vs the 4 Goblins // Hazoret // Sarkhan Ultimate
makes me feel quite uncomfortable... does it work?
- is the Eidolon really that great? Used to run in in my Burnlist where it was really good but in this deck i dont know.
- One of Pyretic Ritual - whats the benefit of it?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"From my rotting body,
flowers shall grow
and I am in them
and that is eternity."
So this is my attempt on the deck and it plays really good vs moderndecks - beside that I lost every match vs Standarddecks (Jeskai Control, Grixis Control) which wasnt that great... but I had a lot of fun
I have some questions:
- Ensnaring Bridge vs the 4 Goblins // Hazoret // Sarkhan Ultimate
makes me feel quite uncomfortable... does it work?
- is the Eidolon really that great? Used to run in in my Burnlist where it was really good but in this deck i dont know.
- One of Pyretic Ritual - whats the benefit of it?
Hello Walker! First off it’s awesome you picked up the deck and welcome! So now let me see if I can answer some of your concerns. You have 8 Goblins, a Hazoret,and two Sarkhans that can all attack, your question about the bridge is warrented. But with the way bridge was created, if you’re empty handed your goblins aren’t forced to attack, and when you eventually have a critical mass of them, you can save the card in your hand during combat, and then swing with all the goblins for the win. Hazoret plays like a planeswalker and slowly kills the opp while also being incredibly hard to kill, the only major cards able to kill it being path to exile or lilianna of the veil. And since path decks are on the downswing, and we have goblins to sacrifice to liliana, you can usually assume she’ll ride out the game. Sarkhan is a different story. He’s mostly their to fix your draws into something better, but if you do find yourself ulting him behind the bridge, you can keep using his rummage ability to find one of your two Abrades to destroy our own bridge and swing with lethal!
Eidolons are basically the 4th lock piece. They help us against Storm, KCI, Burn, Tron, any deck that runs Arclight Phoenix or Thing in the Ice, and any deck we want to be aggressive against, (control). It is a great card until you’re behind a bridge, but most of the decks we bring it in against we will cut some or all bridges.
The one of Pyretic looks out of place, but in reality it’s ritual number 9, it simply gives us another copy of Desperate Ritual and Simian Spirit Guide, and helps with explosive turn 1 and turn 2 plays. The one of Gemstone Caverns you’re does less in the deck than the Pyretic Ritual does, abd I’d highly upping the Genstone count to (3).
I hope this answered all of your questions and I highly recommend going back and reading past posts, all of your questions have been answered a few times and many more questions you haven’t even asked yet. There are also other decklists and cards to test, and sideboard discussions and guides to help with bad matchups!
Hey! I also played Rabble at GP oakland. I went 7-2 Day 1 and made day 2! I won my first game and was 8-2, but had a really bad streak after and just missed cashing at 10-5.
4 Goblin Rabblemaster
1 Hazoret the Fervent
4 Legion Warboss
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
2 Abrade
2 Anger of the Gods
4 Blood Moon
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Pyretic Ritual
3 Gemstone Caverns
14 Mountain
1 Mutavault
4 Ramunap Ruins
Sideboard:
2 Anger of the Gods
1 Boil
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
2 Ravenous Trap
2 Sorcerous Spyglass
1 Spellskite
2 Torpor Orb
1 Trinisphere
I took extensive notes and was planning on writing it out somewhere if people were interested! I brought the deck to prey on U/R Phoenix, but while I did beat a few of them, I lost to the red variants. We have a bad matchup vs good KCI players. Triple ee and trawler loops breaks all of the locks. I would have skewed my board towards these.
So these suggestions may seem too off the wall but has anybody tried faithless looting? I know it's a nonbo with chalice but some matchups we shave chalice and other matchups we can keep more aggressive hands in this turn 3 modern format.
Lastly I know black has been suggested before and I'm curious if more people have experimented with it?
The deck for the most part seems so close to being a legitimate deck but the big issue really is consistency and just drawing the wrong part of the deck, flooding out/being mana screwed and unfortunately modern right now is just too fast for a deck to falter for 1-2 turns. I run currently sarkhan which is amazing against control/midrange decks but just far too slow against a lot of other decks and I just feel if there was another way to improve consistency this deck could be great.
I've tested Magma jet and so have a lot of others. I think the problem is doesn't kill a lot of important things. A lot of the times for me it reads "2/3 of a lava spike, scry 2" 1R.
I really like sarkhan with avaracious dragon conceptually and they both solve consistency issues. That being said, in most matchups, you get a soft lock and buy multiple turns to draw into chandra/rabble to win. Standard rabble has been pretty consistent for me, with the main issue being the importance of starting hands.
So I'm currently on storm and I'm having real contemplation about audibling to this for SCG Worcester this weekend. If I do, how would RW work. It allows us to get stony silence, RIP, And white leylin in the board and could change Abrade to O-ring as a catch all and wrath instead of anger.
Mana base of something like
4 aerid mesa
4 sacred foundry
2 rugged prairie
3 gemstone caverns
5 plains
2 mountains
This could get you the mana you need and play around your own bloodmoons.
I might rock this at my LGS tomorrow to give it a test. If you look at the T16 of SCG Columbus and GP Oakland, how does this deck not steam roll all of that field
So I'm currently on storm and I'm having real contemplation about audibling to this for SCG Worcester this weekend. If I do, how would RW work. It allows us to get stony silence, RIP, And white leylin in the board and could change Abrade to O-ring as a catch all and wrath instead of anger.
Mana base of something like
4 aerid mesa
4 sacred foundry
2 rugged prairie
3 gemstone caverns
5 plains
2 mountains
This could get you the mana you need and play around your own bloodmoons.
I might rock this at my LGS tomorrow to give it a test. If you look at the T16 of SCG Columbus and GP Oakland, how does this deck not steam roll all of that field
I lacked of Gas... Chalice and Moon are good but you have to pressure your opponent.
I have no idea how people keep having good results with "Sun/Moon", lost to affinity/storm/naya-nahiri/WG Hatebears.
Had to win everything but my deck just let me drew the wrong side of the deck... even with the right side I lost horribly to Storm.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"From my rotting body,
flowers shall grow
and I am in them
and that is eternity."
It's not the greatest deck in the current meta, but it's still decent. I think the main thing you're missing is all the dig cards. It's a lot better when you can draw what you need lol. I have considered taking out the molten rains for an extra Day of Judgment and Sorcerous Spyglass, but land destruction can be key to making moon work in g2/3 when they start fetching basics so I haven't done it. Another consideration would be Emrakul, the Promised End, but I'm still working out the kinks on that one to see what it replaces.
I think it helps to look at those original lists for this deck and count the number of threats they run - it’s usually between 12-14. This deck plays like a midrange deck. You have the control elements to escape the early game (barring t1 rabbles) but your lock pieces will usually only get you so far without pressure before your opponents break out and roll you with card advantage and/or superior card quality. You really can’t afford to go lower than 12 threats or you just up your chances of bricking draw after draw and giving your opponent time.
I also went to GP Oakland, going 2-3 and 3-3 in the PTQ/MCQs (got convinced to play Tron in main event; mistake). Had a blast playing pyro prison and will continue to test it through GP LA. I’m running 4 Abrade and 4 Eidolon main to deal with problem artifacts and better game against combo, cutting a Moon and 2 Warbosses.
While I love the deck, matchups against UW, Jeskai, Devoted Company, Jund, and Rock seem unwinnable, which will prevent the deck from getting over the hump. I have a couple Molten Rains in the side but I don’t think it’s nearly enough. On the plus side, I haven’t lost to Spirits yet, and managed to beat Dredge, GDS, Tron, UW Mill, and Hollow Phoenix.
Big thanks to Wolfie, Ray, and Russ for the work and getting me and others into this deck!
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It's a more aggressive breed - threat dense with (14) Creatures. Goblins that spit out 1/1s can kill faster than planeswalkers. And, Eidolons work almost as well as Chalice against spell/combo decks. Bonus: unlike a chalice, they can actually kill. I mean, who ever heard of someone being slapped from 20 to 0 by a cup of dubious dimensions.
Further thought on why (14) inflated count of creatures: Just as mid-range/control decks run out of answers to our creatures, one more pops off the top of the deck to present a hefty threat. No more top decking the dreaded 'hot air': mountains/rituals/abrade. Now, it's multiple ramunaps/mutavaults, less ritual, and no abrade.
Chandra is just right as a (2). Multiples are redundant. And, her immediate damage output is paltry. By dropping her count and moving Eidolon from the SB to the MD, I've freed up a lot of sideboard slots.
Pia and Kiran are terrific against so many decks. They're back! Now, although I am stamping Pyro Prison || Maximum as a 'creature' deck [most we've ever tried], I'm not saying that it can run with the big dogs. (4) Bridge and (3) Sweepers represent a Panic Button when pitted against a creature heavy build.
This deck does Not claim to be able to 'out-creature' a tribal/swarm deck like Humans/Spirits/Elves/Dredge/Hollow One/Merfolk. Hey, if I can get lucky on an early Chalice/Moon to foul them up and overwhelm, great! BUT, if not, then I have to got 'run away! run away! run away! like a knight of King Arthur's Court. That's why there are 4 bridges, 3 sweepers, and the swiss army knife of 1 Piran.
Maximum, not for its speed, but for the fact that it added the 4th Wall to our coveted prison: Eidolon of the Great Revel.
Stop the Spell-Based Combo decks and Storm alike! Lock 'Em Up!!!!!!
Give it a whirl...
Dreadscabal, the long and short of it is that in most of the current builds we do not run a way to kill someone with solemnity and unlife out. Your best bet when you see this deck is to not draw anything with Chandra and try to mill them out game 1, then kill them fast game 2/3. Following the Rayfathers footsteps, I ran 1 Word of Seizing for a little bit in the board, it can take a Phyrexian Unlife while they’re at 0 life and they’ll die instantly. I added it mostly because I have 2 white devotion decks that are played once in a while in my area, but I never found a reason to bring it in most games so it got cut.
Unfortunately for such a matchup, I would argue you just concede unless they have less cards then you do in the deck, in which case you can just work to prevent them from beating you. In paper you can simply count cards in deck and make them aware of this as your win condition now. Online just play quickly if you see you have more cards. This allows you to see another win condition, and if they have one other then a 'hard lock' - You have no obligation to scoop to a deck you believe has no win condition.
As far as true answers, considering both of these are in the "Enchantment" spectrum.
https://scryfall.com/search?as=grid&order=name&q=oracle:enchantment color=R legal:modern
You'll see in the search I am searching for Red, Modern Legal, with cards that have "Enchantmnet" in the rule text. Obviously "Wear and Tear" does not show, which could be an out if you are dabbling with the concept of "White Pyro" which has been discussed very briefly in our discord. The White strictly for things like Rest in Peace (and the ability to cast if to avoid needing to play Leyline of the Void and hoping to spike in the opener).
Otherwise, we just don't have anything for it :(. Ratchet Bomb could be used if you are able to have it in the opener, and get it to 3 before a Solemnity shows up. If it is a local meta deck then I would actually advise you to splash a color. At a large GP I can't say you'd see this deck archtype that often.
Modern:
Pyro Prison
Sun and Moon
Eldrazi Stompy
R1: Beat UR Phoenix 2-1
R2: Beat Elves 2-0
R3: Beat KCI 2-1
R4: Lost to Thopter-Sword Prison 1-2
R5: Beat Elves 2-1
R6: Lost to Storm 1-2
R7: Lost to Scapeshift 0-2 (this matchup seems miserable if you can’t find Blood Moon)
Aside from Scapeshift, all my losses were very close. Scapeshift always killed me the turn before I had lethal.
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Blood Moon
Creatures (9)
4 Goblin Rabblemaster
4 Legion Warboss
1 Hazoret the Fervent
Planeswalkers (5)
3 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
2 Sarkhan, Fireblood
Sweeper Removal (4)
2 Slagstorm
2 Abrade
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Desperate Ritual
1 Pyretic Ritual
Lands (21)
14 Mountains
1 Gemstone Caverns
3 Ramunap Ruins
1 Mutavault
2 Scavenger Grounds
2 Anger of the Gods
2 Abrade
3 Damping Sphere
3 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Shattering Spree
4 Eidolon of Great Revel
So this is my attempt on the deck and it plays really good vs moderndecks - beside that I lost every match vs Standarddecks (Jeskai Control, Grixis Control) which wasnt that great... but I had a lot of fun
I have some questions:
- Ensnaring Bridge vs the 4 Goblins // Hazoret // Sarkhan Ultimate
makes me feel quite uncomfortable... does it work?
- is the Eidolon really that great? Used to run in in my Burnlist where it was really good but in this deck i dont know.
- One of Pyretic Ritual - whats the benefit of it?
flowers shall grow
and I am in them
and that is eternity."
Hello Walker! First off it’s awesome you picked up the deck and welcome! So now let me see if I can answer some of your concerns. You have 8 Goblins, a Hazoret,and two Sarkhans that can all attack, your question about the bridge is warrented. But with the way bridge was created, if you’re empty handed your goblins aren’t forced to attack, and when you eventually have a critical mass of them, you can save the card in your hand during combat, and then swing with all the goblins for the win. Hazoret plays like a planeswalker and slowly kills the opp while also being incredibly hard to kill, the only major cards able to kill it being path to exile or lilianna of the veil. And since path decks are on the downswing, and we have goblins to sacrifice to liliana, you can usually assume she’ll ride out the game. Sarkhan is a different story. He’s mostly their to fix your draws into something better, but if you do find yourself ulting him behind the bridge, you can keep using his rummage ability to find one of your two Abrades to destroy our own bridge and swing with lethal!
Eidolons are basically the 4th lock piece. They help us against Storm, KCI, Burn, Tron, any deck that runs Arclight Phoenix or Thing in the Ice, and any deck we want to be aggressive against, (control). It is a great card until you’re behind a bridge, but most of the decks we bring it in against we will cut some or all bridges.
The one of Pyretic looks out of place, but in reality it’s ritual number 9, it simply gives us another copy of Desperate Ritual and Simian Spirit Guide, and helps with explosive turn 1 and turn 2 plays. The one of Gemstone Caverns you’re does less in the deck than the Pyretic Ritual does, abd I’d highly upping the Genstone count to (3).
I hope this answered all of your questions and I highly recommend going back and reading past posts, all of your questions have been answered a few times and many more questions you haven’t even asked yet. There are also other decklists and cards to test, and sideboard discussions and guides to help with bad matchups!
4 Goblin Rabblemaster
1 Hazoret the Fervent
4 Legion Warboss
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
2 Abrade
2 Anger of the Gods
4 Blood Moon
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Pyretic Ritual
3 Gemstone Caverns
14 Mountain
1 Mutavault
4 Ramunap Ruins
Sideboard:
2 Anger of the Gods
1 Boil
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
2 Ravenous Trap
2 Sorcerous Spyglass
1 Spellskite
2 Torpor Orb
1 Trinisphere
I took extensive notes and was planning on writing it out somewhere if people were interested! I brought the deck to prey on U/R Phoenix, but while I did beat a few of them, I lost to the red variants. We have a bad matchup vs good KCI players. Triple ee and trawler loops breaks all of the locks. I would have skewed my board towards these.
Lastly I know black has been suggested before and I'm curious if more people have experimented with it?
The deck for the most part seems so close to being a legitimate deck but the big issue really is consistency and just drawing the wrong part of the deck, flooding out/being mana screwed and unfortunately modern right now is just too fast for a deck to falter for 1-2 turns. I run currently sarkhan which is amazing against control/midrange decks but just far too slow against a lot of other decks and I just feel if there was another way to improve consistency this deck could be great.
I really like sarkhan with avaracious dragon conceptually and they both solve consistency issues. That being said, in most matchups, you get a soft lock and buy multiple turns to draw into chandra/rabble to win. Standard rabble has been pretty consistent for me, with the main issue being the importance of starting hands.
Has anyone considered Orcish Librarian?
Mana base of something like
4 aerid mesa
4 sacred foundry
2 rugged prairie
3 gemstone caverns
5 plains
2 mountains
This could get you the mana you need and play around your own bloodmoons.
I might rock this at my LGS tomorrow to give it a test. If you look at the T16 of SCG Columbus and GP Oakland, how does this deck not steam roll all of that field
I played this on last FNM.
2 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Rugged Prairie
4 Blood Moon
3 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Rest in Peace
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Arid Mesa
3 Wrath of God
2 Anger of the Gods
4 Simian Spirit Guide
2 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
1 Gideon Jura
1 Gemstone Caverns
7 Plains
2 Mountain
2 Sacred Foundry
3 Temple of Triumph
1 Ajani Vengeant
2 Abrade
2 Lightning Helix
I lacked of Gas... Chalice and Moon are good but you have to pressure your opponent.
I have no idea how people keep having good results with "Sun/Moon", lost to affinity/storm/naya-nahiri/WG Hatebears.
Had to win everything but my deck just let me drew the wrong side of the deck... even with the right side I lost horribly to Storm.
flowers shall grow
and I am in them
and that is eternity."
6 Plains
2 Mountain
3 Rugged Prairie
4 Temple of Triumph
2 Sacred Foundry
4 Arid Mesa
2 Flooded Strand
Planeswalkers:
4 Nahiri, the Harbinger
2 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1 Ajani Vengeant
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Wall of Omens
4 Simian Spirit Guide
Enchantments:
4 Blood Moon
Artifacts:
4 Chalice of the Void
Instants:
4 Lightning Helix
2 Tormenting Voice
Sorceries:
2 Wrath of God
4 Anger of the Gods
2 Rest in peace
2 Stony Silence
2 Blessed Alliance
4 Stone Rain
2 Molten Rain
1 Day of Judgment
1 Sorcerous Spyglass
1 Damping Sphere
It's not the greatest deck in the current meta, but it's still decent. I think the main thing you're missing is all the dig cards. It's a lot better when you can draw what you need lol. I have considered taking out the molten rains for an extra Day of Judgment and Sorcerous Spyglass, but land destruction can be key to making moon work in g2/3 when they start fetching basics so I haven't done it. Another consideration would be Emrakul, the Promised End, but I'm still working out the kinks on that one to see what it replaces.
Modern:
Pyro Prison
Sun and Moon
Eldrazi Stompy
I think it helps to look at those original lists for this deck and count the number of threats they run - it’s usually between 12-14. This deck plays like a midrange deck. You have the control elements to escape the early game (barring t1 rabbles) but your lock pieces will usually only get you so far without pressure before your opponents break out and roll you with card advantage and/or superior card quality. You really can’t afford to go lower than 12 threats or you just up your chances of bricking draw after draw and giving your opponent time.
I also went to GP Oakland, going 2-3 and 3-3 in the PTQ/MCQs (got convinced to play Tron in main event; mistake). Had a blast playing pyro prison and will continue to test it through GP LA. I’m running 4 Abrade and 4 Eidolon main to deal with problem artifacts and better game against combo, cutting a Moon and 2 Warbosses.
While I love the deck, matchups against UW, Jeskai, Devoted Company, Jund, and Rock seem unwinnable, which will prevent the deck from getting over the hump. I have a couple Molten Rains in the side but I don’t think it’s nearly enough. On the plus side, I haven’t lost to Spirits yet, and managed to beat Dredge, GDS, Tron, UW Mill, and Hollow Phoenix.
Big thanks to Wolfie, Ray, and Russ for the work and getting me and others into this deck!