Mcwinsauce on modo tried relics main, he didn't like them. The problem is that you don't have a fast enough clock, so people just play around them, or you're forced to use them for mediocre value to prevent an annoying play (like gurmag angler, loam or faithless looting).
Yea, I played with it for a little bit, and honestly I'm having trouble evaluating them. I really like that they are never dead cards, and I also really like that they can draw at instant speed for miracle value. But as you mentioned, most of the time they offer mediocre value and I feel like if i'm eschewing playing snapcaster mage and logic knot my gravehate needs to be really strong to make up for it. That's why I wouldn't play solely Relic, but 1-2 relic with a single rest in peace.
I think I'm off maindeck gravehate for now though because I don't feel like I can make an accurate unbiased judgement; sometimes they are straight up free wins and most other times they are a mediocre cycler that gives you a few free sideboard cards at the cost of making you cut powerful cards from the main. Saving sideboard space shouldn't be undervalued either, but I'm not really able to assess exactly how valuable that is for the time being. And since i'm only a couple weeks out from GP Toronto I don't want to spend my time trying to figure that out. I'll work on it some more after then.
I'm not gonna clog up this thread, but for anyone who's interested, I'm brewing up a Bant Control list with Growth Spiral and Wilderness Reclamation in addition to the usual miracles stuff. So far it seems to have legs.
Anyone have any thoughts on how the KCI ban will effect us? How the meta might shift and how we might react to it?
I'm just coming back the last couple of months, so I'm not too familiar with how KCI impacted the meta to begin with. I remember Tron having a larger presence, was it's down tick due to a KCI meta at all?
The only thing I'm relatively sure of is that now I definitely don't want to be on main deck RIP. One the best matches for it is gone.
Anyone have any thoughts on how the KCI ban will effect us? How the meta might shift and how we might react to it?
I'm just coming back the last couple of months, so I'm not too familiar with how KCI impacted the meta to begin with. I remember Tron having a larger presence, was it's down tick due to a KCI meta at all?
The only thing I'm relatively sure of is that now I definitely don't want to be on main deck RIP. One the best matches for it is gone.
Always hard to make predictions like this but I would say that nothing much changes. KCI was a fringe deck in terms of meta share after all.
KCI was one of the most played decks, not really sure where you're getting this information from. It was like 7% of the online meta and an even bigger portion of day 2 decks in paper.
Hey, what's your guys opinion on running a Warrant // Warden Putting an attacker on top of their library seems great for tempo, and being able to create a celestial colonnade token for the same mana seems very reasonable.
Hey, what's your guys opinion on running a Warrant // Warden Putting an attacker on top of their library seems great for tempo, and being able to create a celestial colonnade token for the same mana seems very reasonable.
Warrant is a bad condemn, and Warden is sorcery speed. Options are nice, but only 1 of these options is something we would want access too (warrant). If Warden was instant I would test it since you could use it to ambush a planeswalker or surprise block, but as is it will just give a target for removal. It will be good in standard, but I wouldn't recommend it for modern.
Depose//Deploy is similar, and better imo. The front half draws a card and gains life essentially, similar to wall of omens which is fringe played, except it's instant speed and can remove a blocker if need be, so I think it's better than wall of omens just on the front half. Then the back half, Deploy, gives 2 bodies so turning on removal isn't as big of a concern and it has incidental life gain which we are always in the market for.
I'm currently testing Depose//Deploy and it's been pretty decent, for the reasons I've stated above but also because it plays well with Snapcaster mage - instant speed options and the ability to gain life and/or switch gears. 4 power over 3 body's for 6 Mana doesn't sound great, but at instant speed when you need to close the door works well.
KCI was one of the most played decks, not really sure where you're getting this information from. It was like 7% of the online meta and an even bigger portion of day 2 decks in paper.
I actually have to ask where getting that from?
This is the day 2 of GP Oakland and that was the strongest showing the deck ever had.
KCI was never at any point one of the most played decks or even heavily played which was part of its controversy because it put up disproportionate amounts of good results compared to how often it actually was played. Kinda similar to Amulet Titan before Summer Bloom was banned.
KCI was one of the most played decks, not really sure where you're getting this information from. It was like 7% of the online meta and an even bigger portion of day 2 decks in paper.
? Source on that. Its never been a huge part of the meta, only the 'winners meta' in the top 32...
There are literally only 3 decks on that graph that are more represented. If the 4th most played deck doesn't qualify as one of the most played decks on day 2, we aren't speaking the same language.
the 7% comes from the metagame breakdown at MTGgoldfish... here's a link current for today which puts it as the second most popular deck, but it was as high as 7% in the last week.
That's again, pulling not from the general meta, but the 'winners' meta. Considering Oakland, those numbers are dramatically inflated.
The goldfish data is not winners meta, and why would deckbuilders concern themselves with decks that aren't likely to make it to day 2 of events anyways - the open meta is unpredictable, the "winners meta" is likely to be much more stable.
Edit*** Maybe I'm missing something because these numbers from the mtgtop8 are not lining up with what I understand. Can anyone point me in the right direction?
I think only by looking at the Day 2's and Top 32's (or whatever you can pull) week by week are we able to make any kind of real estimates. Wizards has hidden the data too much.
I know for SURE KCI was never as high as MTGGoldfish reflects, and with how they curate the 5-0 lists, which feed MTGGoldfish, its not a reliable source of information.
This is kinda offtopic but yeah, idSurge and Galerion are right... KCI was never a huge part of the meta. It's presence might have increased on the last two months but it was always a fringely played deck with an absurd MWP, D2% and T32 conversion. Imho the only reason the deck wasn't that widely played was that it was a nightmare to play on MTGO contributing to less people putting the reps needed to properly pilot it.
Anyway, I don't think it'll change a lot for us. Our typical sideboard configuration has 2-3 Stony Silence and 2-3 RiP and 0-2 Surgical Extraction. These numbers may be trimmed a bit but I don't think we were really all that worried about KCI. The rest of the meta made us play these cards already. In terms of metagame, I think the decks that had good KCI matchup like GDS, Phoenix, Infect, Storm and maybe Spirits will continue to be prevalent because they weren't exactly preying on KCI itself but more on the linearity of the format, which hasn't changed at all.
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Are we not in the market for removing Stony's from our sideboard? It seems really sub-par against Hardened Scales Affinity, which is pretty much supplanting old-fashioned Affinity from what I've seen. Also, have people tried mainboarding RiPs? I think we would need to retool the deck a bit, but if the linear meta gets more pronounced it's a good way to have more game G1 against graveyard decks like Phoenix and Dredge, and plays against DS variants that run Delve threats. Makes me wish we had a Blue Faithless Looting; that card is so good at digging for answers and sideboard cards, and filtering away the unneeded answers.
Serum Visions is pretty good at finding sideboard cards. It also sets up miracles pretty well, especially if you also run Opt and/or illumination alongside it. I keep hoping we get a playable 1cmc instant speed draw 2 with some kind of draw back but based on Chart a course it doesn't seem we will even get a playable 1cmc draw 2 at sorcery speed. Brainstorm lite? Draw 2 shuffle 1 into deck to prevent miracle OP maybe?
I think with KCI gone there's less reason to run RIP main. It's not spectacular against Pheonix except under specific circumstances anyways and having to give up Snapcaster is a huge net loss in power level against the rest of the field.
That's all fair. I'm currently on a 0 Serum Visions list, maybe it's time I took a look at the recent lists and updated as needed. I think I'm on 4 Opt for cantrips. I used to have 2 Hiero as well, but they just felt like bad Opts too often.
@13055
This is a what a fairly stock list looks like -6 flex slots which are usually some combination of 1 each of the following:Oust, Mana Leak, Search For Azcanta, Vendilion Clique, spell snare, Timely Reinforcements, detention sphere and supreme verdict.
@Brendelton - I tested Relics and RIP main as well, I couldn't come to a solid conclusion - RIPS in multiples feel awful, but running gravehate with snap feels weird so I didn't like snap + relic either. I was testing 1 RIP, 2 Relic main no Snap, no Azcanta with 1 more RIP in the side. You can read my thoughts more in depth a page or two back if it might be of use to you.
It's a tiny bit more flexible than JayJay describes. To be honest, in my honest opinion it's way less flexible than what I posted because I believe that you definitely want 4 Opt/2 Illumination, you definitely want at least 1 SfA, you definitely want 1 lifegain effect, and the counter suite you pick usually it's better being evenly spread between Leak/Knot/Snare/Negate. I, for one, am totally against SV... it doesn't suit our game plan if you're on UW Miracles... If you go into Midrange or Jeskai (4cmc wipes) build I'd go 4 SV/2 Opts for sure.
You really need a super inbred metagame to run GY main... To be completely honest if we're in the point where GY hate is needed in the maindeck probably UW Control isn't the deck we should be playing. Regardless, I'd start by playing Surgical Extraction in the main... It's way worse as a graveyard hate card, I give you that but it has plenty of upside if you're playing on the maindeck:
1) It pairs quite well with Snapcaster Mage
2) It's actually never dead
3) Improves Big Mana, Combo and Mirror g1 matchups significantly by transforming every counterspell in your deck into a Slaughter Games
4) If you hit a Bloodghast on g1 against Dredge it gets really though for you to lose (if you just played RIP you'd win as well, but Relic can more easily be played around)
5) It's actually better against UR Phoenix than RIP because it deals with Drakes besides dealing with the Phoenixes themselves
6) If you have soulread capabilties you can just win random games...
Yea, I played with it for a little bit, and honestly I'm having trouble evaluating them. I really like that they are never dead cards, and I also really like that they can draw at instant speed for miracle value. But as you mentioned, most of the time they offer mediocre value and I feel like if i'm eschewing playing snapcaster mage and logic knot my gravehate needs to be really strong to make up for it. That's why I wouldn't play solely Relic, but 1-2 relic with a single rest in peace.
I think I'm off maindeck gravehate for now though because I don't feel like I can make an accurate unbiased judgement; sometimes they are straight up free wins and most other times they are a mediocre cycler that gives you a few free sideboard cards at the cost of making you cut powerful cards from the main. Saving sideboard space shouldn't be undervalued either, but I'm not really able to assess exactly how valuable that is for the time being. And since i'm only a couple weeks out from GP Toronto I don't want to spend my time trying to figure that out. I'll work on it some more after then.
Bant Draw-Go: https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/deck-creation-modern/804451-bant-draw-go-control
UWB Esper Draw-Go Control (clicky)
UW Azorius Control (clicky)
Currently pursuing a degree in Biochemistry.
EDH: I've decided I don't like multiplayer formats.
I'm just coming back the last couple of months, so I'm not too familiar with how KCI impacted the meta to begin with. I remember Tron having a larger presence, was it's down tick due to a KCI meta at all?
The only thing I'm relatively sure of is that now I definitely don't want to be on main deck RIP. One the best matches for it is gone.
Always hard to make predictions like this but I would say that nothing much changes. KCI was a fringe deck in terms of meta share after all.
Warrant is a bad condemn, and Warden is sorcery speed. Options are nice, but only 1 of these options is something we would want access too (warrant). If Warden was instant I would test it since you could use it to ambush a planeswalker or surprise block, but as is it will just give a target for removal. It will be good in standard, but I wouldn't recommend it for modern.
Depose//Deploy is similar, and better imo. The front half draws a card and gains life essentially, similar to wall of omens which is fringe played, except it's instant speed and can remove a blocker if need be, so I think it's better than wall of omens just on the front half. Then the back half, Deploy, gives 2 bodies so turning on removal isn't as big of a concern and it has incidental life gain which we are always in the market for.
I'm currently testing Depose//Deploy and it's been pretty decent, for the reasons I've stated above but also because it plays well with Snapcaster mage - instant speed options and the ability to gain life and/or switch gears. 4 power over 3 body's for 6 Mana doesn't sound great, but at instant speed when you need to close the door works well.
I actually have to ask where getting that from?
This is the day 2 of GP Oakland and that was the strongest showing the deck ever had.
You can also check MTGTop8
https://www.mtgtop8.com/format?f=MO
KCI was never at any point one of the most played decks or even heavily played which was part of its controversy because it put up disproportionate amounts of good results compared to how often it actually was played. Kinda similar to Amulet Titan before Summer Bloom was banned.
? Source on that. Its never been a huge part of the meta, only the 'winners meta' in the top 32...
Spirits
the 7% comes from the metagame breakdown at MTGgoldfish... here's a link current for today which puts it as the second most popular deck, but it was as high as 7% in the last week.
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/metagame/modern#paper
So yes, it is/was one of the most popular decks.
Spirits
The goldfish data is not winners meta, and why would deckbuilders concern themselves with decks that aren't likely to make it to day 2 of events anyways - the open meta is unpredictable, the "winners meta" is likely to be much more stable.
Edit*** Maybe I'm missing something because these numbers from the mtgtop8 are not lining up with what I understand. Can anyone point me in the right direction?
I know for SURE KCI was never as high as MTGGoldfish reflects, and with how they curate the 5-0 lists, which feed MTGGoldfish, its not a reliable source of information.
Spirits
Anyway, I don't think it'll change a lot for us. Our typical sideboard configuration has 2-3 Stony Silence and 2-3 RiP and 0-2 Surgical Extraction. These numbers may be trimmed a bit but I don't think we were really all that worried about KCI. The rest of the meta made us play these cards already. In terms of metagame, I think the decks that had good KCI matchup like GDS, Phoenix, Infect, Storm and maybe Spirits will continue to be prevalent because they weren't exactly preying on KCI itself but more on the linearity of the format, which hasn't changed at all.
WUMiracles ControlUW
RUBGrixis Death's ShadowBUR
I think with KCI gone there's less reason to run RIP main. It's not spectacular against Pheonix except under specific circumstances anyways and having to give up Snapcaster is a huge net loss in power level against the rest of the field.
This is a what a fairly stock list looks like -6 flex slots which are usually some combination of 1 each of the following:Oust, Mana Leak, Search For Azcanta, Vendilion Clique, spell snare, Timely Reinforcements, detention sphere and supreme verdict.
2 teferi, hero of dominaria
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 path to exile
3 serum visions
4 Opt
2 logic knot
1 negate
1 detention sphere
3 cryptic command
4 Terminus
4 Flooded Strand
4 Celstial Colonnade
5 Island
3 Plains
2 Glacial Fortress
2 Hallowed Fountain
1 Ghost Quarter
@Brendelton - I tested Relics and RIP main as well, I couldn't come to a solid conclusion - RIPS in multiples feel awful, but running gravehate with snap feels weird so I didn't like snap + relic either. I was testing 1 RIP, 2 Relic main no Snap, no Azcanta with 1 more RIP in the side. You can read my thoughts more in depth a page or two back if it might be of use to you.
You really need a super inbred metagame to run GY main... To be completely honest if we're in the point where GY hate is needed in the maindeck probably UW Control isn't the deck we should be playing. Regardless, I'd start by playing Surgical Extraction in the main... It's way worse as a graveyard hate card, I give you that but it has plenty of upside if you're playing on the maindeck:
1) It pairs quite well with Snapcaster Mage
2) It's actually never dead
3) Improves Big Mana, Combo and Mirror g1 matchups significantly by transforming every counterspell in your deck into a Slaughter Games
4) If you hit a Bloodghast on g1 against Dredge it gets really though for you to lose (if you just played RIP you'd win as well, but Relic can more easily be played around)
5) It's actually better against UR Phoenix than RIP because it deals with Drakes besides dealing with the Phoenixes themselves
6) If you have soulread capabilties you can just win random games...
WUMiracles ControlUW
RUBGrixis Death's ShadowBUR