I don't get it why your overloading on GY hate when the "supposed meta" had a good gy based deck removed. What are you trying to combat with it? Are you playing for a specific meta that you know beforehand or just going for an open big event?
Either way, what's the point on Grafdigger's? Why not just increase the numbers of RIP? I don't know your maindeck to make any comments but either way my current take on the format is this:
- KCI is gone so there's a little less incentive to overload on GY hate. Unless I know I'll play an inbred metagame I'll just go with 2/3 Rips and 1/2 Surgicals. I love the later specially on the mainboard. The best part about Surgical is that you get to see their hand which is a really good effect to have so that you can make a more educated decision on whether or not it's time to turn the corner.
- Mox Opal players will migrate to HS Affinity, Amulet and Whir Prison, which probably means that you'll want at the very least 2 copies of stony silence (not for amulet though). While on this topic HS Affinity is probably one of the best decks in the format and is super underplayed.
- Amulet is probably the go to combo deck right now. It's a somewhat even matchup but you kinda need to clock them because they can really grind after board which the Cavern+Bounce lands
- Burn is secretly one of the best decks in the format. Last event I attended I played burn 4 times... Tied one, won 1, loss 2 (one of them in the finals of the event :()
- I'm playing 4 lifegain spells in my 75 and I really think we should have more. I'm playing 1 Timely and 1 Absorb in the main and 2 angels in the board. On this topic, I love the angels pretty much in almost every matchup. People are expecting them but it's always a tough sideboard exercise for them so you gain a couple of percentage points because of them drawing air when you have walkers or you autowin if they don't draw removal or you're able to protect the angel.
- Ceremonious Rejection is something I've felt it's only decent in UW. Against Tron they have inevitability, so you can't just play the control game. You have to bring win conditions. Ceremonious Rejection is a good card to pair with clocks since it's so cheap but you don't have the luxury to bring that many cards. I'd play Ceremonious in Jeskai, I wouldn't on UW because you need to close the game out. My plan against tron is drop a Stony Silence turn 2, LD them as much as possible and then put an Angel or a Geist and swing away. I play crucible as well because of the LD plan, but it's probably wrong and it should be a 2nd Geist.
- I'm playing 2 cliques main. It wins the pseudo-mirrors and helps a bunch g1 against Tron/Combo. It turns on your opponent's removal g1 but it ends up not being a big deal because you get information and probably their best card out of the deal.
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The reason why I'm worried about my GY suite is exactly because of KCI being gone; I used to just play a bunch of RIP and be done with it. But RIP is a bit slow in the Pheonix matchup, especially since they bring in Spell Pierce postboard. I'm worried because Pheonix is one of the most played decks, and I'm trying to figure out how to optimize my GY suite because of that.
I'm not concerned about amulet, I don't find that to be a difficult match all. They are trying to win by attacking resolving and attacking with a single creature, we have 1cmc removal spells and countermagic, this match is a non-issue.
I'm also not too worried about affinity or HS affinity, between spot removal and terminus this is exactly the kind of matchup we are geared for.
I am worried about the Whir prison deck though, mostly because I have very little experience against it, but I think between Dispel and Ceremonious Rejection this matchup shouldn't be too bad. Or am I wrong?
The Phoenix deck isn't that amazing against us. The way I play in order to win against them is Pathing/Countering the TiTis, RIP to delay their Phoenixes or remove some of their velocity (by nullifying the flashback of lootings). After that you need a plan... Mine is to resolve and protect an Angel. They rarely play Axe, if they do, they don't have a great way to fight over it on the stack. If you save as many Paths as you can and Terminus 2 creatures away you'll be really favored to win. They don't have card advantage, they just cycle through air, so eventually you'll win.
The deck can win if they for some reason have a nuts. Their average draw is way worse than our average draw. This is the exact matchup where Surgical is amazingly good. If you have a surgical on the opening hand you'll almost guaranteed to win. Specially against their nuts. If they have the chance to do the turn 2 nuts they will do it and they usually are mana constrained on the second turn if they go for the nuts, unless they have two manamorphoses. Typical turn 2 nuts is Manamorphose into Looting/Other spell. If they do this you can Surgical the Phoenixes with the trigger on the stack and you straight up win.
Playing more spot removal is also good. Blessed Alliance/Oust/Condemn are great in the matchup. They only have 8 threats so it's kinda easy to contain them. Bear in mind that there will be probably an increase on Temur versions because it's way more consistent, but loses way harder to RiP.
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I am worried about the Whir prison deck though, mostly because I have very little experience against it, but I think between Dispel and Ceremonious Rejection this matchup shouldn't be too bad. Or am I wrong?
if you have a couple stonys (1-2) in the board, UW is pretty good to outright great against whir. game 1 can be more of a coinflip if you get a sweeper+removal heavy draw, but whir has to lean heavily on pithing needle effects to contain your walkers just running away with the game. they arent present any real clock or anything so as the game drags out the threat of cryptics just picking apart their soft locks goes up. ceremonious rejection is obviously a house if you were going to include that anyways.
add on top of this that its a hard deck to master with unusual play patterns (meaning it will be a pretty small portion of the field), and i dont think its a matchup worth dedicating slots for specifically. if anything id just look through lists or discussions to understand their sideboard strategy and make sure to keep it in mind when boarding yourself. for instance leaving in a single terminus to give you an out to Sai taking over the game.
The Phoenix deck isn't that amazing against us. The way I play in order to win against them is Pathing/Countering the TiTis, RIP to delay their Phoenixes or remove some of their velocity (by nullifying the flashback of lootings). After that you need a plan... Mine is to resolve and protect an Angel. They rarely play Axe, if they do, they don't have a great way to fight over it on the stack. If you save as many Paths as you can and Terminus 2 creatures away you'll be really favored to win. They don't have card advantage, they just cycle through air, so eventually you'll win.
The deck can win if they for some reason have a nuts. Their average draw is way worse than our average draw. This is the exact matchup where Surgical is amazingly good. If you have a surgical on the opening hand you'll almost guaranteed to win. Specially against their nuts. If they have the chance to do the turn 2 nuts they will do it and they usually are mana constrained on the second turn if they go for the nuts, unless they have two manamorphoses. Typical turn 2 nuts is Manamorphose into Looting/Other spell. If they do this you can Surgical the Phoenixes with the trigger on the stack and you straight up win.
Playing more spot removal is also good. Blessed Alliance/Oust/Condemn are great in the matchup. They only have 8 threats so it's kinda easy to contain them. Bear in mind that there will be probably an increase on Temur versions because it's way more consistent, but loses way harder to RiP.
ive been on both sides of the matchup now, and id say that its closer to even to slightly favored for UW. if phoenix doesnt have to act to kill you quickly it can dictate the pace of the game and put UW into some awkward spots, especially post board when soft/conditional 1 cmc counters can snap off key spells like a cryptic/terminus/teferi/jace.
jeskai is a bit better vs. phoenix imo (not a lot, just a bit), even if terminus seems like better removal than bolts and helixes. jeskai can get on the board and pressure their life, and if you run 2+ surgicals all the better because flashing them back for a 2nd or 3rd casting can just run UR phoenix out of threats.
for both versions (UW/jeskai) the angel package is just a workhorse against the deck, so id definitely be including that if ur phoenix is expected to be a good portion of the field. im personally planning to play jeskai next (was on izzet phoenix and UW before that). if i were taking UW to a GP i think my board would look something like this:
I do really like the philosophy of using as many 1-ofs in the sideboard as possible since overloading for a specific matchup feels really bad if you don't come across that matchup. For that reason, maybe it's best to run a single angel for now? It's always been great against Humans and Spirits, but as I mentioned before humans is on the decline and Spirits is so bad that it might not be worthy of preparing for. I'm not so sure it's great in the Pheonix matchup. I mean, obviously it stone blanks Pheonix and Drake but if we get to the point where we can cast a 5cmc spell does it matter if it is an Angel or a planeswalker? I guess it depends what you're taking out for it. Angel stabilizes well but against a board where a planeswalker would be vulnerable you can't really use the angel to turn the corner, kind of just stuck waiting for a card advantage engine. And if you find the removal, the Angel would have been better as the walker. I guess I'd rather have Angel than Cryptic, but would you rather have angel than Celestial Purge? Or Grafdiggers cage? Or Condemn? None of those cards made your board but maybe could if you trimmed an angel.
Looks like you have 6 cards to bring in: angel, angel, RIP, RIP, Halo, Surgical but what do you take out besides cryptic? Seems hard to find the space for that many cards? I guess the filler stuff right, Snare, Azcanta, timely etc?
Last question for you, Tronix - Are you on multiple Clique main? I can't figure out why you'd rather Queller than Clique out of the board otherwise.
I do really like the philosophy of using as many 1-ofs in the sideboard as possible since overloading for a specific matchup feels really bad if you don't come across that matchup. For that reason, maybe it's best to run a single angel for now? It's always been great against Humans and Spirits, but as I mentioned before humans is on the decline and Spirits is so bad that it might not be worthy of preparing for. I'm not so sure it's great in the Pheonix matchup. I mean, obviously it stone blanks Pheonix and Drake but if we get to the point where we can cast a 5cmc spell does it matter if it is an Angel or a planeswalker? I guess it depends what you're taking out for it. Angel stabilizes well but against a board where a planeswalker would be vulnerable you can't really use the angel to turn the corner, kind of just stuck waiting for a card advantage engine. And if you find the removal, the Angel would have been better as the walker. I guess I'd rather have Angel than Cryptic, but would you rather have angel than Celestial Purge? Or Grafdiggers cage? Or Condemn? None of those cards made your board but maybe could if you trimmed an angel.
Looks like you have 6 cards to bring in: angel, angel, RIP, RIP, Halo, Surgical but what do you take out besides cryptic? Seems hard to find the space for that many cards? I guess the filler stuff right, Snare, Azcanta, timely etc?
Last question for you, Tronix - Are you on multiple Clique main? I can't figure out why you'd rather Queller than Clique out of the board otherwise.
yeah when i was on UW i played 2 cliques main, but tbh the list wasnt tuned very well. im used to running 1 MD in jeskai control, and i liked the idea of 2 cliques giving me ways to cycle dead terminus in hand. even still i think id prefer queller over clique since burn is on the rise and queller is actually a card versus them. your conclusion may differ depending on how you evaluate the burn matchups (multiple cause there are like 4 versions now), which i know can vary for UWx control players.
i think 1 angel is fine, there are very few occasions where you get the +1/+1 interaction online. you are right though that it isnt some autowin if you tap out for an angel, but lightning axe is a liability to keep in post board for UR phoenix. so its easy to catch them with their pants down and it will likely net you multiple turns of them digging.
thinking about it more i think i might in the mindset of jeskai where you can close out quickly with burn spells. it lets you be more proactive with angel attacks since a 10 point life swing is just lights out once you initiate a counter race.
that said angels do amazing work at brick walling any sort of board state phoenix is trying to cobble together once you hit turn 5. if you havent established a rip (or even runed halo) and or havent surgicaled phoenixes yet, just bringing back 2 and killing a jace or teferi can be a big swing. granted you can avoid this if the gamestate has you with a jace and an instant speed terminus or teferi untap holding path or cryptic tap.
there are also minor differences in izzet phoenix builds worth considering. for instance young pyromancer is more common as a 2-of, or someone might be running pyro ascension. for young pyro i think id rather have an angel, but purge for ascension (obviously). some also include a miser copy of maximize velocity, which can punk you out of games. thats where the threat of spell pierce becomes real. walkers can be spell pierced, and any spells you might play off a tap out teferi -> untap.
if the goal is to start shutting down avenues of attack depending on your draw, and as the game goes on; then i think a baneslayer or lyra does that better than singleton spells or walkers. its why i said i thought the phoenix matchup was closer to even. ur phoenix has insane dig power, and UWx isnt attacking the hand at all, so it can craft gamestates that play through a few pieces of interaction from hand.
in short i think either purge or condemn are a nice hedge, but id still want at least 1 angel. either are also applicable against GDS, which is also on the rise. so that is a plus.
as for what 6 cards id side out. i think id do:
-2 cryptic
-1 snapcaster (as a nod to RIP)
-1 timely (assuming you run a copy MD)
-1 clique
-1 spell snare (can be brutal snapping off a morphose or titi, but still dont think it makes the cut)
+2 RIP
+1 Surgical
+1 Baneslayer/lyra
+1 Runed Halo
+1 angel/celestial purge/condemn
depending on the version id also consider cutting a land on the draw, but i get that most people are averse to doing this. especially for control. i just really hate getting run over thanks to colonnade entering tapped, and mathematically 3 is an ideal number to see 1 per game (assuming you run a full set of 4). with the extra card and 7-8 cycle effects, hitting 5-6 lands on curve shouldnt be an issue.
you mentioned humans and spirits on the downswing. tbh i wouldnt give paper players that much credit. if im not mistaken you are an mtgo player (alongside paper). both humans and spirits are very popular decks and have had time to 'marinate' in the format, meaning plenty of people have bought into them. the same goes for other popular paper decks like jund/gb rock.
thats why i called the angels workhorses. they are decent to outright great in most creature matchups, and a 5 cmc 5/5 dodges a lot of removal. in lieu of running 2, and a choice between purge and condemn; i think id choose purge. personally ive never played with cage, so i cant attest to how good it is in whatever matchup, seems powerful but a bit narrow; which is not where id want to be at a GP day 1 field.
Yes, I do play mostly online and basically only play paper when a major modern tournament is around my city (just outside Toronto). I hadn't really considered that paper players wouldn't adapt and would just play the same old deck they always have. I definitely should have because I'm pretty much doing it myself - if it wasn't for not having paper copies of living end I think I would be on UR electro-end.
Thanks for all the advice, I'll take it into consideration.
Woah I just noticed the Colonnades are down to 3.7 tickets online... they were like 40 when I was playing this deck a year ago. I'm looking at This List to add to the Valakut deck I just bought I like the Thing in the Ices, and I remember considering Absorb so many times! I never played with them or Teferi. How viable is this deck these days? Looks like it would be a little more powerful than what I was playing before?
Edit: Yeah this version has no Jace or Surgicals (can't believe how expensive surgicals are now) No snaps either. Can I get a good version without the surgicals at least? Also why do all the forums look so dead?
That list looks awful. There only non-reactive card that flips thing is Opt which means you'll have to use spot removal to flip the horror and if you're killing creatures to flip the bounce effect becomes less than stellar.
Either that or you're going to have to wait to counter a spell to flip thing, which means your opponent gets to dictate the terms.
Teferi is absurd in this deck. Absorb sees some play, but I think it's bad. 3 Mana is too much for a counterspell and sometimes the color requirement makes you take weird lines.
The deck is still good, has a lot of good matchups against top decks.
Was hoping someone would respond soon! Just compared more of the decks and noticed 4x terminus seems to be pretty common and at least 2 Jace and Snaps. I guess PW ults and CC beatdowns are the win cons now. Jace and Teferi look pretty nasty, I've never played with either. Wouldn't mind watching some good stream of these current lists before I decide to go all in again. This seems to have overthrown Jeskai in popularity and power level which I wasn't expecting.
What you think of current state of UW in meta? I´ve been looking for control deck to play and i´ve chosen UW for that. If im expecting tons of GY decks, is there any reason for not to play RiP/Surgicals in main deck?
EDIT: Or is it just people doesnt find UW good enough
@slowgod - check out Nassif's twitch archives (yellowhat), he plays a ton of UW. He's been mostly doing standard the last few weeks for prep, but there's some sprinkling of UW in there and if you go back a month or more there's lots of coverage including some interesting experimental stuff with rest in peace in the main deck.
And yea, the main win condition is teferi ult or CC beats, Jace ult from time to time as well but not often.
@Matson - as I mentioned above, you can check Nassif's stream for an interesting take on RIP in the main. I don't think you want surgical in the main though. RIP has niche applications in almost every matchup (think Tarmogoyf, Search for Azcanta, chromatic star etc) whereas Surgical is never going to trade for a full card in a lot of matchups.
Overall though I think UW is well positioned in the meta.
I've been thinking about possible changes to the deck and one card I am always drawn to it Mishra's Bauble. It doesn't look like much, but it has some good synergy with the deck. A few of the ways that it can be useful:
Creates draw triggers on opponents turn for terminus for the low cost of zero mana
Adds cards to the graveyard to strengthen logic knot and azcanta
Makes the deck 56 cards which increases consistency
Offers some card selection by offering scry 1 in combination with a field of ruin activation or a fetchland
The card is not perfect however and you should consider that it actually delays the card you are going to draw by a turn. It also has a non-bo with stony silence which should be considered when side-boarding.
Has anyone else tested with this card or have any thoughts on including it in a U/W control build?
So I think I like this list from Tyler Andrews at SCG indy. The 1 ancestral vision is strange and I'm wondering what matchups the angels are for, mostly other control decks? I've noticed the angels in lots of lists and the Cataclysmic Gearhulk (not in this version) is interesting too.
Gearhulk and angels are for spirits and humans. They can't be countered by spell Queller or mauseleom wanderer and avoid Thalia tax.
Personally I don't like gearhulk, but I guess it has application in prison matchups. Angel on the other hand is almost always the biggest creature on the board and can single handily stabilize against a wide board.
That list looks perfectly serviceable. You could mix up the numbers of ancestral and illumination with serum visions and you'd be within 56-58/60 of most people's main deck.
The only card that looks really out of place to me is crucible of worlds. I haven't thought about the card much lately, but I haven't wanted for itsince field of ruin was printed.
That list looks awful. There only non-reactive card that flips thing is Opt which means you'll have to use spot removal to flip the horror and if you're killing creatures to flip the bounce effect becomes less than stellar.
I also agree the list looks bad, but the deck creator said it was a meta call. I would imagine that deck is probably better vs red aggro than the stock UW terminus lists.
Seems like a bad meta call to me; I don't want 0/4 do-nothings as blockers against a deck with 12+ lightning bolts and some number of abrades and/or lightning axes (worst wall of omens ever). The snares and ousts might make it possible to get to the point where absorb is a good card, but you could implement that in a regular UW shell if you wanted.
So I caved and bought the whole deck last night (not the bad meta call one!) It feels really good to be playing it again, only did 3 matches so far and went 2-1. Lost to Naya burn after he conceded early game 1 and I wasn't sure what I was playing against. Brought in Angels for game 3 and not sure if that was right, but I died the turn after playing 1 of them, so it was close. I actually brought in the angels in all 3 matches and they won the game against Jund through Choke, and a long match vs Eldrazi and Taxes. I would have ran out of time if not for them also. I'm pretty rusty and definitely have a lot of new stuff to figure out, especially the always annoying sideboard plan for each matchup. I'm not really sure what the main flex slots are anymore or if you ever take out any of your PWs? I barely used Teferi so far and even Jace only did stuff in a couple games. It's slower without Gideons, but way more powerful and controlly.
The planeswalkers rarely come out, you need them to win. You can take some number out vs hyper aggressive red decks if you have enough stuff to bring in, but that's about it.
Basically if it's a 1-of it's a flex slot. There's a ton of variability in lists along the 1-ofs because they are mostly filler cards tbh. As long as you use 2-3 of those slots on something that can draw cards (visions, vision, heiroglyph, azcanta) then the rest is pretty flexible. Some mix of 1-of each of the following seems to be popular and do well from time.to.time: Timely, snare, oust, condemn, sphere, clique, Azcanta, leak, Gideon of the trials, wall of omens, runed Halo. Some people might include absorb in that list as well, but I think its garbage. I also personally like a Depose//Deploy in one of those slots as well, but I've never seen or heard anyone else play it or suggest it.
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Either way, what's the point on Grafdigger's? Why not just increase the numbers of RIP? I don't know your maindeck to make any comments but either way my current take on the format is this:
- KCI is gone so there's a little less incentive to overload on GY hate. Unless I know I'll play an inbred metagame I'll just go with 2/3 Rips and 1/2 Surgicals. I love the later specially on the mainboard. The best part about Surgical is that you get to see their hand which is a really good effect to have so that you can make a more educated decision on whether or not it's time to turn the corner.
- Mox Opal players will migrate to HS Affinity, Amulet and Whir Prison, which probably means that you'll want at the very least 2 copies of stony silence (not for amulet though). While on this topic HS Affinity is probably one of the best decks in the format and is super underplayed.
- Amulet is probably the go to combo deck right now. It's a somewhat even matchup but you kinda need to clock them because they can really grind after board which the Cavern+Bounce lands
- Burn is secretly one of the best decks in the format. Last event I attended I played burn 4 times... Tied one, won 1, loss 2 (one of them in the finals of the event :()
- I'm playing 4 lifegain spells in my 75 and I really think we should have more. I'm playing 1 Timely and 1 Absorb in the main and 2 angels in the board. On this topic, I love the angels pretty much in almost every matchup. People are expecting them but it's always a tough sideboard exercise for them so you gain a couple of percentage points because of them drawing air when you have walkers or you autowin if they don't draw removal or you're able to protect the angel.
- Ceremonious Rejection is something I've felt it's only decent in UW. Against Tron they have inevitability, so you can't just play the control game. You have to bring win conditions. Ceremonious Rejection is a good card to pair with clocks since it's so cheap but you don't have the luxury to bring that many cards. I'd play Ceremonious in Jeskai, I wouldn't on UW because you need to close the game out. My plan against tron is drop a Stony Silence turn 2, LD them as much as possible and then put an Angel or a Geist and swing away. I play crucible as well because of the LD plan, but it's probably wrong and it should be a 2nd Geist.
- I'm playing 2 cliques main. It wins the pseudo-mirrors and helps a bunch g1 against Tron/Combo. It turns on your opponent's removal g1 but it ends up not being a big deal because you get information and probably their best card out of the deal.
WUMiracles ControlUW
RUBGrixis Death's ShadowBUR
I'm not concerned about amulet, I don't find that to be a difficult match all. They are trying to win by attacking resolving and attacking with a single creature, we have 1cmc removal spells and countermagic, this match is a non-issue.
I'm also not too worried about affinity or HS affinity, between spot removal and terminus this is exactly the kind of matchup we are geared for.
I am worried about the Whir prison deck though, mostly because I have very little experience against it, but I think between Dispel and Ceremonious Rejection this matchup shouldn't be too bad. Or am I wrong?
The deck can win if they for some reason have a nuts. Their average draw is way worse than our average draw. This is the exact matchup where Surgical is amazingly good. If you have a surgical on the opening hand you'll almost guaranteed to win. Specially against their nuts. If they have the chance to do the turn 2 nuts they will do it and they usually are mana constrained on the second turn if they go for the nuts, unless they have two manamorphoses. Typical turn 2 nuts is Manamorphose into Looting/Other spell. If they do this you can Surgical the Phoenixes with the trigger on the stack and you straight up win.
Playing more spot removal is also good. Blessed Alliance/Oust/Condemn are great in the matchup. They only have 8 threats so it's kinda easy to contain them. Bear in mind that there will be probably an increase on Temur versions because it's way more consistent, but loses way harder to RiP.
WUMiracles ControlUW
RUBGrixis Death's ShadowBUR
if you have a couple stonys (1-2) in the board, UW is pretty good to outright great against whir. game 1 can be more of a coinflip if you get a sweeper+removal heavy draw, but whir has to lean heavily on pithing needle effects to contain your walkers just running away with the game. they arent present any real clock or anything so as the game drags out the threat of cryptics just picking apart their soft locks goes up. ceremonious rejection is obviously a house if you were going to include that anyways.
add on top of this that its a hard deck to master with unusual play patterns (meaning it will be a pretty small portion of the field), and i dont think its a matchup worth dedicating slots for specifically. if anything id just look through lists or discussions to understand their sideboard strategy and make sure to keep it in mind when boarding yourself. for instance leaving in a single terminus to give you an out to Sai taking over the game.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)ive been on both sides of the matchup now, and id say that its closer to even to slightly favored for UW. if phoenix doesnt have to act to kill you quickly it can dictate the pace of the game and put UW into some awkward spots, especially post board when soft/conditional 1 cmc counters can snap off key spells like a cryptic/terminus/teferi/jace.
jeskai is a bit better vs. phoenix imo (not a lot, just a bit), even if terminus seems like better removal than bolts and helixes. jeskai can get on the board and pressure their life, and if you run 2+ surgicals all the better because flashing them back for a 2nd or 3rd casting can just run UR phoenix out of threats.
for both versions (UW/jeskai) the angel package is just a workhorse against the deck, so id definitely be including that if ur phoenix is expected to be a good portion of the field. im personally planning to play jeskai next (was on izzet phoenix and UW before that). if i were taking UW to a GP i think my board would look something like this:
1 dispel
1 negate
1 disdainful stroke
1 supreme verdict
2 timely reinforcements
1 stony silence
2 rest in peace
1 surgical extraction
1 runed halo
1 spell queller
1 lyra dawnbringer
1 baneslayer angel
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)Looks like you have 6 cards to bring in: angel, angel, RIP, RIP, Halo, Surgical but what do you take out besides cryptic? Seems hard to find the space for that many cards? I guess the filler stuff right, Snare, Azcanta, timely etc?
Last question for you, Tronix - Are you on multiple Clique main? I can't figure out why you'd rather Queller than Clique out of the board otherwise.
yeah when i was on UW i played 2 cliques main, but tbh the list wasnt tuned very well. im used to running 1 MD in jeskai control, and i liked the idea of 2 cliques giving me ways to cycle dead terminus in hand. even still i think id prefer queller over clique since burn is on the rise and queller is actually a card versus them. your conclusion may differ depending on how you evaluate the burn matchups (multiple cause there are like 4 versions now), which i know can vary for UWx control players.
i think 1 angel is fine, there are very few occasions where you get the +1/+1 interaction online. you are right though that it isnt some autowin if you tap out for an angel, but lightning axe is a liability to keep in post board for UR phoenix. so its easy to catch them with their pants down and it will likely net you multiple turns of them digging.
thinking about it more i think i might in the mindset of jeskai where you can close out quickly with burn spells. it lets you be more proactive with angel attacks since a 10 point life swing is just lights out once you initiate a counter race.
that said angels do amazing work at brick walling any sort of board state phoenix is trying to cobble together once you hit turn 5. if you havent established a rip (or even runed halo) and or havent surgicaled phoenixes yet, just bringing back 2 and killing a jace or teferi can be a big swing. granted you can avoid this if the gamestate has you with a jace and an instant speed terminus or teferi untap holding path or cryptic tap.
there are also minor differences in izzet phoenix builds worth considering. for instance young pyromancer is more common as a 2-of, or someone might be running pyro ascension. for young pyro i think id rather have an angel, but purge for ascension (obviously). some also include a miser copy of maximize velocity, which can punk you out of games. thats where the threat of spell pierce becomes real. walkers can be spell pierced, and any spells you might play off a tap out teferi -> untap.
if the goal is to start shutting down avenues of attack depending on your draw, and as the game goes on; then i think a baneslayer or lyra does that better than singleton spells or walkers. its why i said i thought the phoenix matchup was closer to even. ur phoenix has insane dig power, and UWx isnt attacking the hand at all, so it can craft gamestates that play through a few pieces of interaction from hand.
in short i think either purge or condemn are a nice hedge, but id still want at least 1 angel. either are also applicable against GDS, which is also on the rise. so that is a plus.
as for what 6 cards id side out. i think id do:
-2 cryptic
-1 snapcaster (as a nod to RIP)
-1 timely (assuming you run a copy MD)
-1 clique
-1 spell snare (can be brutal snapping off a morphose or titi, but still dont think it makes the cut)
+2 RIP
+1 Surgical
+1 Baneslayer/lyra
+1 Runed Halo
+1 angel/celestial purge/condemn
depending on the version id also consider cutting a land on the draw, but i get that most people are averse to doing this. especially for control. i just really hate getting run over thanks to colonnade entering tapped, and mathematically 3 is an ideal number to see 1 per game (assuming you run a full set of 4). with the extra card and 7-8 cycle effects, hitting 5-6 lands on curve shouldnt be an issue.
you mentioned humans and spirits on the downswing. tbh i wouldnt give paper players that much credit. if im not mistaken you are an mtgo player (alongside paper). both humans and spirits are very popular decks and have had time to 'marinate' in the format, meaning plenty of people have bought into them. the same goes for other popular paper decks like jund/gb rock.
thats why i called the angels workhorses. they are decent to outright great in most creature matchups, and a 5 cmc 5/5 dodges a lot of removal. in lieu of running 2, and a choice between purge and condemn; i think id choose purge. personally ive never played with cage, so i cant attest to how good it is in whatever matchup, seems powerful but a bit narrow; which is not where id want to be at a GP day 1 field.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)Thanks for all the advice, I'll take it into consideration.
Edit: Yeah this version has no Jace or Surgicals (can't believe how expensive surgicals are now) No snaps either. Can I get a good version without the surgicals at least? Also why do all the forums look so dead?
Either that or you're going to have to wait to counter a spell to flip thing, which means your opponent gets to dictate the terms.
Teferi is absurd in this deck. Absorb sees some play, but I think it's bad. 3 Mana is too much for a counterspell and sometimes the color requirement makes you take weird lines.
The deck is still good, has a lot of good matchups against top decks.
What you think of current state of UW in meta? I´ve been looking for control deck to play and i´ve chosen UW for that. If im expecting tons of GY decks, is there any reason for not to play RiP/Surgicals in main deck?
EDIT: Or is it just people doesnt find UW good enough
And yea, the main win condition is teferi ult or CC beats, Jace ult from time to time as well but not often.
@Matson - as I mentioned above, you can check Nassif's stream for an interesting take on RIP in the main. I don't think you want surgical in the main though. RIP has niche applications in almost every matchup (think Tarmogoyf, Search for Azcanta, chromatic star etc) whereas Surgical is never going to trade for a full card in a lot of matchups.
Overall though I think UW is well positioned in the meta.
- Creates draw triggers on opponents turn for terminus for the low cost of zero mana
- Adds cards to the graveyard to strengthen logic knot and azcanta
- Makes the deck 56 cards which increases consistency
- Offers some card selection by offering scry 1 in combination with a field of ruin activation or a fetchland
The card is not perfect however and you should consider that it actually delays the card you are going to draw by a turn. It also has a non-bo with stony silence which should be considered when side-boarding.Has anyone else tested with this card or have any thoughts on including it in a U/W control build?
4 Celestial Colonnade
4 Field of Ruin
4 Flooded Strand
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Glacial Fortress
2 Hallowed Fountain
6 Island
3 Plains
3 CREATURES
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique
25 INSTANTS and SORC.
1 Ancestral Vision
3 Cryptic Command
1 Hieroglyphic Illumination
2 Logic Knot
1 Mana Leak
1 Negate
4 Opt
1 Oust
4 Path to Exile
1 Spell Snare
1 Supreme Verdict
4 Terminus
1 Timely Reinforcements
1 Detention Sphere
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Search for Azcanta
2 Teferi, Hero of Dominaria
1 Baneslayer Angel
2 Celestial Purge
1 Ceremonious Rejection
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Disdainful Stroke
2 Dispel
1 Lyra Dawnbringer
1 Negate
2 Rest in Peace
2 Stony Silence
1 Timely Reinforcements
Personally I don't like gearhulk, but I guess it has application in prison matchups. Angel on the other hand is almost always the biggest creature on the board and can single handily stabilize against a wide board.
That list looks perfectly serviceable. You could mix up the numbers of ancestral and illumination with serum visions and you'd be within 56-58/60 of most people's main deck.
The only card that looks really out of place to me is crucible of worlds. I haven't thought about the card much lately, but I haven't wanted for itsince field of ruin was printed.
I also agree the list looks bad, but the deck creator said it was a meta call. I would imagine that deck is probably better vs red aggro than the stock UW terminus lists.
The planeswalkers rarely come out, you need them to win. You can take some number out vs hyper aggressive red decks if you have enough stuff to bring in, but that's about it.
Basically if it's a 1-of it's a flex slot. There's a ton of variability in lists along the 1-ofs because they are mostly filler cards tbh. As long as you use 2-3 of those slots on something that can draw cards (visions, vision, heiroglyph, azcanta) then the rest is pretty flexible. Some mix of 1-of each of the following seems to be popular and do well from time.to.time: Timely, snare, oust, condemn, sphere, clique, Azcanta, leak, Gideon of the trials, wall of omens, runed Halo. Some people might include absorb in that list as well, but I think its garbage. I also personally like a Depose//Deploy in one of those slots as well, but I've never seen or heard anyone else play it or suggest it.