Well if he had flash then maybe but 6CCM without flash that has no immediat value (Cruel Ultimatum) or some kind of protection (Keranos, God of Storms) isn't good enough imho.
If you want to wreck control Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir does a much better job and has flash so you can cast it when your opponent carlessly tap out then untap with him and counters. This Niv-Mizzet version feels overkill and clunky.
Anti Tron tech: K-command mainboard with Fulminator Mages sideboard. Though, I remembrer when tron was really strong I dropped Ultimatum all together and ran more colorless lands to destroy other lands like tectonic edge or ghost quarter.
Also, do counter land searching stuff. When against mono U tron I would also bring in cheap artefact answers to destroy expedition maps before they could crack it.
Think I will restart paying this
@beenjameenbear, 4CC isn't played anymore because too slow with vivid lands and such. You'd need a less clunky mana base do compete in modern nowadays. Also you'd probably fold very fast against land destruction. It's already hard enough now (well, I say now but I haven't played modern in a year...)
If I'm playing Grixis Control and I think I'll see some other control, I'll bring a single Sphinx of the Final Word to go with my Cruel Ultimatums and Kommands. Usually goes pretty well.
Funny enough, I think the control mirror is where Electrodominance will make a real showing. X=7 for a draw step Ultimatum? That's 9 mana... Untap, Snapcaster, Ultimatum again without a land drop. Even if they counter some things and avoid the real pit falls, they know you have some incredible punch now and they have to play carefully not to fall victim to that. All you need is a single Dominance and you can do that series of plays twice, first time for 9cmc, second for 11cmc with Snap+Dominance+Ultimatum, but with some good lead up I'm certain you can force this play into your control opponent.
I'm not a huge fan of Dominance in the early game. Most of the cards you're casting are meant to be cast in the first or second turns, their value greatly diminishes after that barring control mirrors where you can theoretically get away with anything. Against aggro, I think you're really hampering yourself if you think a good T3 play is Dominance for 1, Serum Visions/Thoughtseize/IoK. I think you're going to start seeing real good Dominance plays when you get to T5 and can Anger of the Gods on their turn and punch them in the face for 3. Brutality seems decent at X=2, but only because you're able to discard half your hand for immediate value; even that though, I think sets you up for failure because you don't operate entirely out of your yard.
I'm really considering Magma Spray to push out some of these Phoenix decks. Sure, it's not Bolt, it's not as flexible, but I don't think we need to worry too much about that right now. Instant exile is too important and this is as close as we get to Path without white.
Well your removal suite is meta-dependant, if those Phoenix deck are all over the place then limited removals that counter it are OK imho.
Electrodominance also picked my interest but I think it's a one-of at most. Because it does nothing by itself and drawing multiples early game will be real bad...
Sphinx of the Final Word sure look good in the control mirror that's for sure, I don't like the sorcery speed but he's got protection alright.
Well if he had flash then maybe but 6CCM without flash that has no immediat value (Cruel Ultimatum) or some kind of protection (Keranos, God of Storms) isn't good enough imho.
If you want to wreck control Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir does a much better job and has flash so you can cast it when your opponent carlessly tap out then untap with him and counters. This Niv-Mizzet version feels overkill and clunky.
Anti Tron tech: K-command mainboard with Fulminator Mages sideboard. Though, I remembrer when tron was really strong I dropped Ultimatum all together and ran more colorless lands to destroy other lands like tectonic edge or ghost quarter.
Also, do counter land searching stuff. When against mono U tron I would also bring in cheap artefact answers to destroy expedition maps before they could crack it.
Think I will restart paying this
@beenjameenbear, 4CC isn't played anymore because too slow with vivid lands and such. You'd need a less clunky mana base do compete in modern nowadays. Also you'd probably fold very fast against land destruction. It's already hard enough now (well, I say now but I haven't played modern in a year...)
All probably true. I'm more of a Commander player myself but I do like what I see in regards to the trends for Modern. If Jeskai and Azorius Control can do well with 5 CMC spells, then I don't think it's too far-fetched for a 4 CC deck to actually be decent.
The Vivid lands are definitely a concession to nostalgia and the need to be able to produce certain colors consistently. Maybe there's some configuration of lands that could make a 4 Color landbase work out there. I'll try and put some think energy to this.
Also, what is the consensus regarding Rune Snag? It seems decent in the current Modern meta, but I haven't played Modern in a long time myself. Is it just too slow?
Rune snag just isnt better than leak/knot, as much as I do like the card. Its frequently awkward, and always unreliable, which can frequently be a killer. Its graveyard dependent, and plays poorly with snapcaster.
I'm not sure how far away from a reflecting pool + pillar of the paruns manabase for multi-color control (probably with basics, urborg, filter lands, etc to fill in the gaps). Probably a 3rd good multicolor land is needed before it really works though.
Between terminate, helix, electrolyze, k command, teferi, verdict, ultimatum, rev, countersquall, spell queller, absorb, geist, esper charm, detention sphere, etc.
Its possible we'd even splash into green for stuff like growth spiral or glittering wish or trophy/decay too. You even have manamorphose to "cheese" pillar if you need to cast snapcaster or something.
The main downside is that good exile removal (path, anger, terminus) is mostly mono colored, as are 2 cmc counterspells. Cryptic would likely be impossible to cast but with 5 colors worth of value cards you can probably live without it.
Haha I'm also more into EDH. Well, let's say EDH is the only thing I didn't stop were my modern game count has been 0 for the past one or two years...
But my issue with modern is a lack of friends playing it and the personnality of the leading players in my local shop >_>
Issue with snag is yard hate and incompatibility with snap. As Cody_X said a mix of leak and logic knot is much better. And if you don't play Tasigur you can use logic knot much more effectively in fact, even saying big fat no to big fat tron with a lot of mana
@Cody_X, damnit, a 5CC deck with manamorphose as fixer and cantrip seems totaly legit imho
Maybe adding some energy counters synergies and Aether Hub ? You could also keep a traditionnal but condenced fetch/shock mix with some basics ? As long as you have some normal blue you can always cast leak
This is my current Cruel list. I've been including an after action tournament report on the deck page on my profile, so feel free to take a look. It's performed fairly well, though that's more that what can be said about my play performance. I welcome any comments or suggestions
Ral has been great, he's basically Grixis Teferi. I got to win a game against Amulet where I got to use Ral to shoot a Primeval Titan when I didn't have a Terminate, and it felt so good. I haven't gotten to test Bedevil much yet, but I don't expect it to be worse than Hero's Downfall, which was already good enough for a slot.
Hi guys! I currently run this list but need some help for mainboard and sideboard options.
For Mainboard:
-My first thought is to add more counters but don't know what to remove. I also don't know for 4x Logic Knot but as far by now it seems to work.
For Sideboard:
-I can't decide if Fulminator Mage or Crumble to Dust is better sideboard solution for land destruction for dealing with Tron decks mainly but not only.
-Maybe The Izzet Staticaster is too much and unnecessary for this deck and maybe it need to be replaced with something else. A counterspell like a Counterflux or Spell Snare maybe in the mainboard.
Snagged first place in a tournament today at 6-1-1 total record. This was the list I played, first time trying the deck but it felt super sweet, though I did dodge most of the aggro. Not much to go by but first impression was that Crumble to Dust > Fulminator Mage by far, didn't feel like a single land destruction spell would make it easier for this deck to actually beat Tron, it's way too slow. I think I much prefer trying to counter their first threats and then hopefully resolving a Crumble to Dust.
Went mostly from Matt Sperlings list he posted on twitter but I'm not sure how I feel about playing only two discards main, though they do get much better with Snapcaster Mage for sure.
I haven't played against Bant Spirits much lately, but I was probably 50% in the past. The trick I found was to just kill anything on sight and blow up Aether Vials whenever I could. If you can keep the board clear (or at least clear of relevant lords/ Maelstrom Wanderer), you can pull ahead. Sideboarded, things get easier, as you can take out the counterspells for removal and board wipes (though I try and fit two Dispel in to stop Collected Company). The one thing that I always found, is if your draw doesn't line up, you have a hard time.
Yes this strategy seems to work. Yesterday it was the first time i won against Bant Spirits 2-0.
As i understand this thread is to build the perfect Grixis Cruel Control deck that has good matchups against every other type of deck in Modern.
Has anyone played against Mill, Burn or Izzet Phoenix lately? What cards are good against Mill and Izzet Phoenix? My opinion for Mill, is that i consider both Mill and Burn the same Deck. Aggressive strategy that burns your Life or Library so with small differences i use the same sideboard (except thoughtseize).
But for Izzet Phoenix i don't know. My goal is to make a deck independed of meta, that is able to beat anything in the format. I haven't faced anyone who plays it yet, but i want to be prepared for this.
Card seems decent, basically a slightly better Ral with slightly harder CMC. I think this can definitely see play as a 1-off, maybe 2. Maybe a 1-1-1 split of Jace, Ral and Bolas, though that might be too many 5s? I wonder how often the static ability will be relevant. This one could prompt playing a UB filter land maybe?
I think the 2 mana Edict is also very interesting.
They left out the part where Yawgmoth is resurrected,but has been cleansed as Yawgmoth the Redeemed,and now must awaken Chromium so that Karn can fuse with him and create what can only be known as : the ultimate taco.
Some Jeskai Control players play 3x Teferi, Hero of Dominaria, so we can too, except Mind Sculptor is 4CMC.
As i understand, the static ability is the best. If you have Jace and Bolas down you have 2 brainstorms or you can see the top 2 cards of target player's library.
Exile Karn with its own ability or destroy it with its second. Sacrifice 2 Creatures or discard 2 cards if you control both Liliana and Bolas.
So if the Jeskai player has a Teferi, we ll have too.
Am i wrong to something?
Private Mod Note
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People's thoughts just come to me. Sometimes, I don't know if it's them or me thinking.
I think the question at hand, for the UW match, is how do you combat against Teferi, Time Raveler's static ability? And second, but maybe more importantly, how are you landing non-creature threats through Dovin's Veto?
Bolas is great once he's on the table, I don't think anyone will contest that, but you're not getting him into play as long as Veto is in their hand.
If you want to wreck control Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir does a much better job and has flash so you can cast it when your opponent carlessly tap out then untap with him and counters. This Niv-Mizzet version feels overkill and clunky.
Anti Tron tech: K-command mainboard with Fulminator Mages sideboard. Though, I remembrer when tron was really strong I dropped Ultimatum all together and ran more colorless lands to destroy other lands like tectonic edge or ghost quarter.
Also, do counter land searching stuff. When against mono U tron I would also bring in cheap artefact answers to destroy expedition maps before they could crack it.
Think I will restart paying this
@beenjameenbear, 4CC isn't played anymore because too slow with vivid lands and such. You'd need a less clunky mana base do compete in modern nowadays. Also you'd probably fold very fast against land destruction. It's already hard enough now (well, I say now but I haven't played modern in a year...)
UB Yuriko, Ninja Tribal
UBR Nicol Bolas, Dragon Reanimator
-
Modern
UBR Grixis Draw-Go
Funny enough, I think the control mirror is where Electrodominance will make a real showing. X=7 for a draw step Ultimatum? That's 9 mana... Untap, Snapcaster, Ultimatum again without a land drop. Even if they counter some things and avoid the real pit falls, they know you have some incredible punch now and they have to play carefully not to fall victim to that. All you need is a single Dominance and you can do that series of plays twice, first time for 9cmc, second for 11cmc with Snap+Dominance+Ultimatum, but with some good lead up I'm certain you can force this play into your control opponent.
I'm not a huge fan of Dominance in the early game. Most of the cards you're casting are meant to be cast in the first or second turns, their value greatly diminishes after that barring control mirrors where you can theoretically get away with anything. Against aggro, I think you're really hampering yourself if you think a good T3 play is Dominance for 1, Serum Visions/Thoughtseize/IoK. I think you're going to start seeing real good Dominance plays when you get to T5 and can Anger of the Gods on their turn and punch them in the face for 3. Brutality seems decent at X=2, but only because you're able to discard half your hand for immediate value; even that though, I think sets you up for failure because you don't operate entirely out of your yard.
I'm really considering Magma Spray to push out some of these Phoenix decks. Sure, it's not Bolt, it's not as flexible, but I don't think we need to worry too much about that right now. Instant exile is too important and this is as close as we get to Path without white.
"Reveal a Dragon"
Electrodominance also picked my interest but I think it's a one-of at most. Because it does nothing by itself and drawing multiples early game will be real bad...
Sphinx of the Final Word sure look good in the control mirror that's for sure, I don't like the sorcery speed but he's got protection alright.
UB Yuriko, Ninja Tribal
UBR Nicol Bolas, Dragon Reanimator
-
Modern
UBR Grixis Draw-Go
All probably true. I'm more of a Commander player myself but I do like what I see in regards to the trends for Modern. If Jeskai and Azorius Control can do well with 5 CMC spells, then I don't think it's too far-fetched for a 4 CC deck to actually be decent.
The Vivid lands are definitely a concession to nostalgia and the need to be able to produce certain colors consistently. Maybe there's some configuration of lands that could make a 4 Color landbase work out there. I'll try and put some think energy to this.
Also, what is the consensus regarding Rune Snag? It seems decent in the current Modern meta, but I haven't played Modern in a long time myself. Is it just too slow?
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
I'm not sure how far away from a reflecting pool + pillar of the paruns manabase for multi-color control (probably with basics, urborg, filter lands, etc to fill in the gaps). Probably a 3rd good multicolor land is needed before it really works though.
Between terminate, helix, electrolyze, k command, teferi, verdict, ultimatum, rev, countersquall, spell queller, absorb, geist, esper charm, detention sphere, etc.
Its possible we'd even splash into green for stuff like growth spiral or glittering wish or trophy/decay too. You even have manamorphose to "cheese" pillar if you need to cast snapcaster or something.
The main downside is that good exile removal (path, anger, terminus) is mostly mono colored, as are 2 cmc counterspells. Cryptic would likely be impossible to cast but with 5 colors worth of value cards you can probably live without it.
But my issue with modern is a lack of friends playing it and the personnality of the leading players in my local shop >_>
Issue with snag is yard hate and incompatibility with snap. As Cody_X said a mix of leak and logic knot is much better. And if you don't play Tasigur you can use logic knot much more effectively in fact, even saying big fat no to big fat tron with a lot of mana
@Cody_X, damnit, a 5CC deck with manamorphose as fixer and cantrip seems totaly legit imho
Maybe adding some energy counters synergies and Aether Hub ? You could also keep a traditionnal but condenced fetch/shock mix with some basics ? As long as you have some normal blue you can always cast leak
UB Yuriko, Ninja Tribal
UBR Nicol Bolas, Dragon Reanimator
-
Modern
UBR Grixis Draw-Go
4 Snapcaster Mage
Enchantments
1 Search for Azcanta
Land
3 Island
1 Mountain
3 Swamp
2 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
2 Steam Vents
1 Blood Crypt
2 Watery Grave
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Drowned Catacomb
2 Sulfur Falls
1 Shadow of Doubt
1 Counterflux
1 Logic Knot
2 Spell Snare
2 Kolaghan's Command
1 Negate
3 Lightning Bolt
1 Electrolyze
1 Mana Leak
2 Fatal Push
3 Cryptic Command
2 Terminate
3 Opt
1 Bedevil
2 Cruel Ultimatum
1 Dreadbore
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Ral, Izzet Viceroy
1 Niv-Mizzet, Parun
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Countersquall
1 Dispel
1 Disdainful Stroke
2 Ceremonious Rejection
1 Anger of the Gods
2 Collective Brutality
1 Damnation
Ral has been great, he's basically Grixis Teferi. I got to win a game against Amulet where I got to use Ral to shoot a Primeval Titan when I didn't have a Terminate, and it felt so good. I haven't gotten to test Bedevil much yet, but I don't expect it to be worse than Hero's Downfall, which was already good enough for a slot.
For Mainboard:
-My first thought is to add more counters but don't know what to remove. I also don't know for 4x Logic Knot but as far by now it seems to work.
For Sideboard:
-I can't decide if Fulminator Mage or Crumble to Dust is better sideboard solution for land destruction for dealing with Tron decks mainly but not only.
-Maybe The Izzet Staticaster is too much and unnecessary for this deck and maybe it need to be replaced with something else. A counterspell like a Counterflux or Spell Snare maybe in the mainboard.
Any other suggestions are welcome too!
1 Blood Crypt
2 Watery Grave
2 Steam Vents
1 Sulfur Falls
1 Swamp
1 Bloodstained Mire
3 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Drowned Catacomb
2 Field of Ruin
3 Island
1 Mountain
2 Cruel Ultimatum
Destroy (11)
2 Damnation
3 Fatal Push
3 Terminate
3 Electrolyze
Counter (8)
4 Cryptic Command
4 Logic Knot
Card Advantage/Utility (10)
1 Kolaghan's Command
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Opt
1 Shadow of Doubt
3 Think Twice
Creature (4)
4 Snapcaster Mage
1 Anger of the Gods
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Bedevil
1 Izzet Staticaster
2 Collective Brutality
1 Kolaghan's Command
2 Countersquall
1 Dispel
2 Crumble to Dust
2 Thoughtseize
1 Vendilion Clique
Went mostly from Matt Sperlings list he posted on twitter but I'm not sure how I feel about playing only two discards main, though they do get much better with Snapcaster Mage for sure.
4 Snapcaster Mage
Enchantment
2 Search for Azcanta
Land
3 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Drowned Catacomb
2 Field of Ruin
1 Sulfur Falls
2 Watery Grave
2 Steam Vents
3 Island
1 Swamp
1 Blood Crypt
Artifact
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Think Twice
1 Logic Knot
2 Kolaghan's Command
2 Lightning Bolt
2 Remand
3 Fatal Push
1 Hieroglyphic Illumination
4 Cryptic Command
1 Electrolyze
2 Terminate
2 Opt
Sorcery
2 Cruel Ultimatum
1 Thoughtseize
1 Damnation
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Dispel
1 Ceremonious Rejection
1 Disdainful Stroke
2 Countersquall
2 Crumble to Dust
1 Anger of the Gods
As i understand this thread is to build the perfect Grixis Cruel Control deck that has good matchups against every other type of deck in Modern.
Has anyone played against Mill, Burn or Izzet Phoenix lately? What cards are good against Mill and Izzet Phoenix? My opinion for Mill, is that i consider both Mill and Burn the same Deck. Aggressive strategy that burns your Life or Library so with small differences i use the same sideboard (except thoughtseize).
But for Izzet Phoenix i don't know. My goal is to make a deck independed of meta, that is able to beat anything in the format. I haven't faced anyone who plays it yet, but i want to be prepared for this.
What cards are good against it? Graveyard hate maybe? Surgical Extraction? Extirpate? Nihil Spellbomb?or just keeping Electrolyze for the Phoenix until you start resolving Cruel Ultimatum?
UB Faeries (15-6-0)
UWR Control (10-5-1)/Kiki Control/Midrange/Harbinger
UBR Cruel Control (6-4-0)/Grixis Control/Delver/Blue Jund
UWB Control/Mentor
UW Miracles/Control (currently active, 14-2-0)
BW Eldrazi & Taxes
RW Burn (9-1-0)
I do (academic) research on video games and archaeology! You can check out my open access book here: https://www.sidestone.com/books/the-interactive-past
Guys is that true?
I think the 2 mana Edict is also very interesting.
As i understand, the static ability is the best. If you have Jace and Bolas down you have 2 brainstorms or you can see the top 2 cards of target player's library.
Exile Karn with its own ability or destroy it with its second. Sacrifice 2 Creatures or discard 2 cards if you control both Liliana and Bolas.
So if the Jeskai player has a Teferi, we ll have too.
Am i wrong to something?
Bolas is great once he's on the table, I don't think anyone will contest that, but you're not getting him into play as long as Veto is in their hand.
"Reveal a Dragon"