im a fan of a 3-2 split of opt/visions respectively. when i was playing UW i was on 4 opt 2 visions, but that was before the hieroglyphic tech became more widespread.
if you plan on trying out the jeskai miracles lists (im gonna give it a spin), then you should have some number of opts. we have zero instant speed card draw otherwise, which means an instant speed terminus would be off the table entirely. it may seem like a minuscule chance or luck based; however you have to realize that deck building is about an accumulation of small percentages. drawing certain cards, having them line up, top decking that answer, etc, etc. all of these things are relatively low chances, but cumulatively they create the decks power; and thus overall win percentage.
also as TheAller points out, visions isnt strictly better than opt. visions has superior digging, but opt gets you a card immediately and allows you to hold up mana; both of which arent readily quantifiable but unquestionably benefits.
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Serum Visions is a bad card. I completely agree with Jeff Hoogland on that, TheAller. My problem is that sometimes it's the best card available for the job depending on what we need it to do. Opt, in a vacuum, isn't a significant upgrade until we account for miracle cards people want to play. That's why I completely agree on UWx Miracles playing a set of Opt before determining what other cantrips make the cut. That said, there are so many times I've watched UW spin its wheels too long. That's where I feel the extra card in the digging portion may help a bit. Again, it's not a significant upgrade. I just believe that, at some point, the next cantrip you add to the main deck delivers diminishing returns.
Serum Visions is not strictly better than Opt. It's just our best tool for general consistency. I agree that Opt plays an important role in these Terminus decks, the question is what else we can do to improve our gameplan. I think people crap on Serum Visions too much, and I say that as a Legacy-cantrip aficionado.
well keeping a 1 lander + SV (or even opt) is more reasonable on 6, since you get the scry. it also depends on how much cheap interaction you have. for instance a 1 lander + SV that also has a cryptic or teferi is asking your deck to cooperate a lot more; so id count that as a hand that is functionally down 1 card.
there are also considerations for sideboard hate or the matchup context, or the even less recognized line of keeping a riskier hand if you are up a game.
basically mulliganning well takes quite a bit of skill and or experience. the game isnt easy precisely because all of these complexities and nuances.
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Bold question: in a stock list playing 24 lands (shaving a FoR) adding more cantrip (5-6 total?) is just a unnecessary risk or worth testing?
- L
i was on 5 cantrips and 24 lands when i was on the build just playing 2 teferi, and i never had mana troubles outside of the normal color screw that any heavy 3 color deck encounters. if you want to you can think of the 3rd FoR as a spell.
25 lands is the safe choice, and where id want to be for the miracles build though. you are more top heavy, and although it isnt preferred; being able to hard cast terminus comes up. that and its usually the correct choice to play 1 more land than you think you need in control decks.
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i was on 5 cantrips and 24 lands when i was on the build just playing 2 teferi, and i never had mana troubles outside of the normal color screw that any heavy 3 color deck encounters. if you want to you can think of the 3rd FoR as a spell.
25 lands is the safe choice, and where id want to be for the miracles build though. you are more top heavy, and although it isnt preferred; being able to hard cast terminus comes up. that and its usually the correct choice to play 1 more land than you think you need in control decks.
I m exactly on 2 teferi.
I think could be useful to post my MD:
Dunno if shaving lands could be worst in paper than online where the shuffler is truly random.
And more on the topic: what land do we want to cut?
I started cutting the 3rd FoR but its so good i ended up cutting the Glacial Fortress but im scared to be too low on coloured mana source being UWR a greedy deck.
The modo shuffler is not random. At least it wasn't as of a few years ago. It uses a very weak algorithm that tends to leave the deck in an order heavily dependent on its previous ordering. Kind of like manual shuffling.
The MTGO shuffle is no way random. If you have an all lander, and you mull, you are nearly certain to be screwed with 1 landers at best for the mull to 6 and 5.
Well technically no random shuffle is actually random but yes MTGO is distorted so you won't get exactly the same hand ie any card you have in your hand is less likely to show up when you mull. But really games tend to go moreso with the appearance of randomness.
The MTGO shuffle is no way random. If you have an all lander, and you mull, you are nearly certain to be screwed with 1 landers at best for the mull to 6 and 5.
Perfect example of how anedoctical negative experience affects humans opinion and emotion.
Hey all. Getting back into jeskai control. Was playing it a while back. Im gonna do the 25 land list with 3 field and 3 colonnade but i have a few questions. I will be playing 4 opt since i like the option of snapping it back if they do nothing. With 4 cantrips is it safe to cut a land or is the new version still too mana hungry? Also i will not be on the miracles build but will run 2 jace and 2 teferi. Finally should i still be running secure the wastes? The deck seems to have moved away from it in concept
The jeskai miracle manabase is very greedy and you should definitely run 25 lands. If you really want to cut a land it would have to be a field of ruin
Secure the wastes has fallen out of favour but it's still decent, weaker with all the sweepers going around though. Generally however I would say that the current UWx decks are so disgustingly good at locking you down once they get going that wincons beyond walker ults and colonnade beats are barely necessary at all
The jeskai miracle manabase is very greedy and you should definitely run 25 lands. If you really want to cut a land it would have to be a field of ruin
Secure the wastes has fallen out of favour but it's still decent, weaker with all the sweepers going around though. Generally however I would say that the current UWx decks are so disgustingly good at locking you down once they get going that wincons beyond walker ults and colonnade beats are barely necessary at all
I went with the 25 land build for a store tourney last night and flooded or had to mull due to too many lands every round. I am not on miracles and Field of ruin just felt worthless. I was running four opts, but I will definitely be going back to serum visions. I may try the 25 land version one more time but for me it just felt too durdly to be honest. I guess I would have change my perspective on the 25 land thing. Other than very small percentage points against tron and Celestial Colonnade (although Path to Exile can handle colonnade), what is the really the advantage to running 3 Field of ruin and 25 lands vs 2 Field of ruin and 24 lands. Either way you are running 8 fetches, 5 basics, 5 shocks, 3 celestial colonnade and one glacial fortress or sulfur falls. Doesn't seem to be affecting the mana fixing ability of the deck. Am I missing something? I feel like the deck would be better served with an additional interactive spell than an additional Field of ruin.
You cant make assessments about your manabase from 4-6 matches
I'm taking into account all the success I had in many matches with a 24 land mana base prior. I am talking about a different version as well since you are referring to jeskai miracles in your prior response.
if you are on the 2 teferi version with a few 4 cmc sweepers thrown in, then 24 lands 4 serum visions is fine. its a proven recipe, and i played that build myself for quite a while.
the slowly increasing number of fields is just greed, nothing else. it ups the power of the deck a bit, but sacrifices some consistency. if you look at the iteration of jeskai builds post teferi it started at 1. jeskai control has one of the most restrictive color requirements going up the curve in the format. the only saving grace, and why we can run field when jund cant, is that we operate at instant speed (mostly); meaning we can find more spare mana for activations.
frankly the difference between 24 and 25 lands is so minuscule, that unless you are meticulously recording your match data its difficult to notice the difference. not to say that what you noticed didnt happen, or that it wasn't the result of that extra land. however to expand on bearscape's point; a small number of matches cant be used as evidence for anything because you cant be sure it wasnt just simple variance. even an 18 land deck can flood.
but yeah in short, serum is fine over opt in non-miracles, and the same is true for 24 lands with 2 fields. just be aware that when the deck is humming and things are going well, that you are losing some percentage against certain decks; which isnt just limited to tron. basically any deck with a utility land that we might care about.
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the only saving grace, and why we can run field when jund cant, is that we operate at instant speed (mostly); meaning we can find more spare mana for activations.
the only saving grace, and why we can run field when jund cant, is that we operate at instant speed (mostly); meaning we can find more spare mana for activations.
the only saving grace, and why we can run field when jund cant, is that we operate at instant speed (mostly); meaning we can find more spare mana for activations.
Why do people think this matters so much?
yeah im not understanding what you are getting at. instant speed effects work well together?
im proposing that field of ruin is better when you dont have to commit to a play on your main phase. that doesnt seem unreasonable. how much it matters pretty much stops there.
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if you plan on trying out the jeskai miracles lists (im gonna give it a spin), then you should have some number of opts. we have zero instant speed card draw otherwise, which means an instant speed terminus would be off the table entirely. it may seem like a minuscule chance or luck based; however you have to realize that deck building is about an accumulation of small percentages. drawing certain cards, having them line up, top decking that answer, etc, etc. all of these things are relatively low chances, but cumulatively they create the decks power; and thus overall win percentage.
also as TheAller points out, visions isnt strictly better than opt. visions has superior digging, but opt gets you a card immediately and allows you to hold up mana; both of which arent readily quantifiable but unquestionably benefits.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)there are also considerations for sideboard hate or the matchup context, or the even less recognized line of keeping a riskier hand if you are up a game.
basically mulliganning well takes quite a bit of skill and or experience. the game isnt easy precisely because all of these complexities and nuances.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)- L
"The problem isn't when Scissors says Rock is overpowered, it's when Paper says it is."
-Mark Rosewater
i was on 5 cantrips and 24 lands when i was on the build just playing 2 teferi, and i never had mana troubles outside of the normal color screw that any heavy 3 color deck encounters. if you want to you can think of the 3rd FoR as a spell.
25 lands is the safe choice, and where id want to be for the miracles build though. you are more top heavy, and although it isnt preferred; being able to hard cast terminus comes up. that and its usually the correct choice to play 1 more land than you think you need in control decks.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)I m exactly on 2 teferi.
I think could be useful to post my MD:
4 Snapcaster Mage
Planeswalker
2 Teferi, Hero of Dominaria
Sorcery and instant
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Settle the Wreckage
1 Serum Visions
4 Cryptic Command
2 Electrolyze
3 Lightning Bolt
3 Lightning Helix
3 Logic Knot
1 Spell Snare
4 Opt
4 Path to Exile
1 Secure the Wastes
2 Search for Azcanta
Lands
3 Celestial Colonnade
3 Field of Ruin
4 Flooded Strand
2 Hallowed Fountain
3 Island
1 Mountain
1 Plains
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Steam Vents
1 Sulfur Falls
Dunno if shaving lands could be worst in paper than online where the shuffler is truly random.
And more on the topic: what land do we want to cut?
I started cutting the 3rd FoR but its so good i ended up cutting the Glacial Fortress but im scared to be too low on coloured mana source being UWR a greedy deck.
- L
"The problem isn't when Scissors says Rock is overpowered, it's when Paper says it is."
-Mark Rosewater
Spirits
Perfect example of how anedoctical negative experience affects humans opinion and emotion.
We can at least assume it is more random than human shuffling: https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/other-formats/599395-the-mtgo-shuffler-isnt-rigged-and-thats-the (for reference)
Also, i didnt intended to discuss about shuffling and randomization
- L
"The problem isn't when Scissors says Rock is overpowered, it's when Paper says it is."
-Mark Rosewater
Secure the wastes has fallen out of favour but it's still decent, weaker with all the sweepers going around though. Generally however I would say that the current UWx decks are so disgustingly good at locking you down once they get going that wincons beyond walker ults and colonnade beats are barely necessary at all
I went with the 25 land build for a store tourney last night and flooded or had to mull due to too many lands every round. I am not on miracles and Field of ruin just felt worthless. I was running four opts, but I will definitely be going back to serum visions. I may try the 25 land version one more time but for me it just felt too durdly to be honest. I guess I would have change my perspective on the 25 land thing. Other than very small percentage points against tron and Celestial Colonnade (although Path to Exile can handle colonnade), what is the really the advantage to running 3 Field of ruin and 25 lands vs 2 Field of ruin and 24 lands. Either way you are running 8 fetches, 5 basics, 5 shocks, 3 celestial colonnade and one glacial fortress or sulfur falls. Doesn't seem to be affecting the mana fixing ability of the deck. Am I missing something? I feel like the deck would be better served with an additional interactive spell than an additional Field of ruin.
I'm taking into account all the success I had in many matches with a 24 land mana base prior. I am talking about a different version as well since you are referring to jeskai miracles in your prior response.
the slowly increasing number of fields is just greed, nothing else. it ups the power of the deck a bit, but sacrifices some consistency. if you look at the iteration of jeskai builds post teferi it started at 1. jeskai control has one of the most restrictive color requirements going up the curve in the format. the only saving grace, and why we can run field when jund cant, is that we operate at instant speed (mostly); meaning we can find more spare mana for activations.
frankly the difference between 24 and 25 lands is so minuscule, that unless you are meticulously recording your match data its difficult to notice the difference. not to say that what you noticed didnt happen, or that it wasn't the result of that extra land. however to expand on bearscape's point; a small number of matches cant be used as evidence for anything because you cant be sure it wasnt just simple variance. even an 18 land deck can flood.
but yeah in short, serum is fine over opt in non-miracles, and the same is true for 24 lands with 2 fields. just be aware that when the deck is humming and things are going well, that you are losing some percentage against certain decks; which isnt just limited to tron. basically any deck with a utility land that we might care about.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)Why do people think this matters so much?
Field, or Instant Speed?
Spirits
yeah im not understanding what you are getting at. instant speed effects work well together?
im proposing that field of ruin is better when you dont have to commit to a play on your main phase. that doesnt seem unreasonable. how much it matters pretty much stops there.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)