Agreed with Bearscape :
- Talisman of Progress should be something else.
- More fetches. Good that you're grabing Scalding Tarn.
- 2 Anger in the sideboard might be replaced by a quick clock (Geist or Clique).
Something I wanted to talk about was cutting Sacred Foundry; I've seen a bunch of Jeskai lists do this lately. I've been playing a singleton Sacred Foundry for 7 years now so I don't really know what to think about it
Also, @JulsSkogs You can't aggressively fetch for red to compensate for a lack of mana sources; fetches are already counted as manasources in that calculation. Including fetches, TundraYYC has 13 red sources, where 17 red sources should be the absolute lowest you should go if you want to reliably cast Anger on turn 3.
@ TundraYYC
- 2 Anger in the sideboard might be replaced by a quick clock (Geist or Clique).
I disagree with this. Geist doesn't help you deal with big mana decks or graveyard decks. I'm not that high on Clique either but it's definitely better since it can be disruptive and/or useful for gaining info.
Really? Four of them? Has Negate been a rockstar while I've been away?
Seriously, it's not like control mirrors are all over Modern right now.
One Negate is pretty standard main, and I often have 3 counterspells in my sideboard mixing between Dispel, Negate, Disdainful Stroke and Counterflux. I think Dovin's Veto is better than all 4 of those.
Really? Four of them? Has Negate been a rockstar while I've been away?
Seriously, it's not like control mirrors are all over Modern right now.
One Negate is pretty standard main, and I often have 3 counterspells in my sideboard mixing between Dispel, Negate, Disdainful Stroke and Counterflux. I think Dovin's Veto is better than all 4 of those.
If that's the case, why weren't those other counterspells in your sideboard also Negates?
Because the vast majority of the time when you side in countermagic, you want to counter noncreature spells. Dispel, Disdainful Stroke and Counterflux have situational upsides that sometimes make them better than Negate, but Dovin's Veto's situational upside is so much stronger however that I'd be hard pressed to run any of the other 3 again.
In other news, I'm going to rewrite the primer for spring cleaning. If anyone has any input or suggestions let's discuss them now.
And in those situations, you usually want those specific spells for a reason. For instance, Dispel against fast decks where 2-CMC isn't where you want to be. Disdainful Stroke hits big CMC things whether they're creatures or not in a variety of matchups. Counterflux can hit the a stack full of Storm copies. An uncounterable Negate doesn't change any of this.
But you're a counterspell lower versus the fast decks when you run a counterflux, and your dispel is going to look very foolish when you want to be countering big things with didainful stroke. It's all a tradeoff of which situational upside gains you the bigger percentage. What I'm saying is that DV's situational upside is so much stronger than the situational upsides of the other counterspells, the percentage you gain with Disdainful stroke is going to be less than the percentage you gain with DV.
I could maybe see still running a Dispel, but Disdainful Stroke would need a huge surge of must-counter cmc4+ creatures to become relevant over DV (in a deck that doesn't also invalidate countermagic with Cavern of Souls). Counterflux's overload was never really relevant IMO.
That literally makes no sense. If it's supposedly that good than Negate should've been pretty damn good already. Making Negate uncounterable doesn't suddenly make it leaps and bounds better than every other counter spell out there. That's determined by the metagame. It's the reason we run so many different counter spells. I feel like everyone is trying really hard to justify something that doesn't make sense, but y'all do what you want. If i look at the top decks right now, there's not many where I'm leaning super hard on a Negate (upgraded or not). Those decks are Tron, UW control and Burn. There's only one matchup where Dovin's Veto is something I would want: UW Control which is a solid ~4% of the metagame. Someone tell me where I'm wrong.
Against UW and tron I both want Negate, but I might want Disdainful stroke since that is slightly better against tron even though it's worse against UW. However most of the things I want to counter out of UW are also cmc4 so the downsides of running Disdainful Stroke are beaten by the upsides it gains vs tron.
Against UW and tron I both want Dovin's Veto, but I might want Disdainful stroke since that is slightly better against tron even though it's worse against UW. UW mirrors are generally decided by who resolves the first threat and Dovin's Veto is so devastating there that the upsides of Disdainful Stroke do not outweigh the upsides of Dovin's Veto.
It's also false to claim UWx is the only matchup where uncounterability is relevant; there's plenty of minor combo decks that get got pretty hard by it. I can also see an argument for bringing in DV whilst I wouldn't bring in Negate vs GDS,.
Against UW and tron I both want Negate, but I might want Disdainful stroke since that is slightly better against tron even though it's worse against UW. However most of the things I want to counter out of UW are also cmc4 so the downsides of running Disdainful Stroke are beaten by the upsides it gains vs tron.
Against UW and tron I both want Dovin's Veto, but I might want Disdainful stroke since that is slightly better against tron even though it's worse against UW. UW mirrors are generally decided by who resolves the first threat and Dovin's Veto is so devastating there that the upsides of Disdainful Stroke do not outweigh the upsides of Dovin's Veto.
It's also false to claim UWx is the only matchup where uncounterability is relevant; there's plenty of minor combo decks that get got pretty hard by it. I can also see an argument for bringing in DV whilst I wouldn't bring in Negate vs GDS,.
Why would you specifically want Dovin's Veto against Tron over Negate when the only counter magic they run is Warping Wail, which does exactly 0 relevant things against us?
And as far as the combo decks, I guess it depends? /shrug. Until they become more oppressive/dominant/whatever, I'd rather stay grounded in what actually is.
Why would you bring in anything resembling Negate against Grixis Death's Shadow? That just seems bad. They're beating you with mana efficiency all day, every day. Not only that, but what's your plan for Negate in this match? Get their 1-of Liliana of the Veil or maybe a random cantrip on turn 2? I'm legitimately confused about this because there are so many other cards I'd rather have before going for an upgraded Negate. They're not trying to play Grixis control against you.
I didn't claim UW control was the only deck I would want Dovin's Veto. I said out of the "top decks right now." If Jeskai control, Grixis control, Blue Moon, Ad Nauseam and a few other decks were prevalent, I would probably consider it more seriously. Until that day comes, I'm not sure what all the fuss is about.
I went 4-0 at FNM with my Jeskai Nahiri list yesterday; I played it just because I really like Nahiri lists but it actually turned out feeling very powerful and effective vs the meta:
Round 1 Humans 2-0
Both games I drew well and won off Cryptic Command tapping their team down so Nahiri could ult. Settle the Wreckage was awkward here game 1 when my opponent saw it with Freebooter, could have cost me the game.
Round 2 Arclight Phoenix 2-1
game 1 Settle won the game, offing 3 phoenixes to make Nahiri ult. Game 2 went very long and had an awkward boardstate with them having Pyromancer's Ascension and a Thing in the Ice on 1 counter, making me not play Nahiri to kill the Ascension because I wanted to kill the thing after it flipped. Game 3 we had some interesting Surgical Extraction fights where he tried to Surgical my Path to Exile and I Surgicalled my own in response. Later he tried it again and this time I let it happen, Surgicalling Faithless Looting instead on a crucial turn. Ended up with a clutch attack of Colonnade and Snapcaster into a Crackling Drake where if he had Lightning Axe I would have been dead on the backswing.
Round 3 Elves 2-1
I killed a lot of elves game 1. Game 2 I stumbled on mana and didn't kill a lot of elves. Game 3 I killed even more elves than in game 1.
Round 4 Cascade Restore Balance 2-1
Had to laugh a bit that after 3 rounds of beating top tier the finals of the night was a fringe deck. Game 1 I get Armageddon'd but get to rebuild, play Nahiri and just Emrakul him after getting Geddon'd a second time. Game 2 I clique him to see two Cascade spells and a Blood Moon, get Geddon'd twice and Blood Moon'd that game then die to Gargodon. Game 3 After stabilizing with Teferi my opponent plays 4 threats over one untap, getting to resolve O-ring on Nahiri and Armageddon with Gargodon on suspend. I have the Path so I rummage for a white source which I find on time and get to kill Gargodon so Nahiri ults for lethal.
Nahiri stole so many games that night, I was very impressed. Looking back at the list I think I want to cram in one more sideboard card vs creature decks. Electrolyze should probably just be Lightning Bolt 3, Remand I ran only for aesthetic reasons and shouls be Mana Leak 2. I still hate Settle the Wreckage and it was awful against humans, ramped elves into Craterhoof Behemoth, and won me an unwinnable game against Phoenix so I'm not sure what to think.
I love seeing Nahiri doing well and appreciate this post. Thanks
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He raged at the world, at his family, at his life. But mostly he just raged.
Modern: BG Rock, Grixis Control, UW Control
Commander: Prossh, Skyraider of Kher
"Win or lose, naught to choose - all men are equal when their memory fades. No one knows, friends or foes, if Valhalla lies beyond the grave." - Motörhead “Deaf Forever”
I love seeing Nahiri doing well and appreciate this post. Thanks
The exile ability is very relevant right now. Nahiri still has the downsides that made her fall out of favour, but I think she might actually be a decent pick right now.
I think Negate's flexibility will prevail over the perks of having a non-counterable spell. Sure, Dovin's new spell is good, but I feel that Negate shines against combo based deck and most of them don't often run counterspell (Ad Nauseam has Pact of Negation...).
@ Bearscape : interesting list. Against which creature do you feel Nahiri's exile ability is the most relevant ?
Agreed with Bearscape :
- Talisman of Progress should be something else.
- More fetches. Good that you're grabing Scalding Tarn.
- 2 Anger in the sideboard might be replaced by a quick clock (Geist or Clique).
Good luck!
Aggro: Naya Burn RWG
Combo: Scapeshift RG
Control: Jeskai Control UWR
Legacy
Control: Miracles UW
Aggro: Burn R
Also, @JulsSkogs You can't aggressively fetch for red to compensate for a lack of mana sources; fetches are already counted as manasources in that calculation. Including fetches, TundraYYC has 13 red sources, where 17 red sources should be the absolute lowest you should go if you want to reliably cast Anger on turn 3.
I disagree with this. Geist doesn't help you deal with big mana decks or graveyard decks. I'm not that high on Clique either but it's definitely better since it can be disruptive and/or useful for gaining info.
Holy balls talk about a mirror breaker
I.. I think you just always want 4 of these in your 75
UW Control
UWR Geist
UWR Control
I'll do you one better, I collect Negates
Seriously, it's not like control mirrors are all over Modern right now.
UW Control
UWR Geist
UWR Control
One Negate is pretty standard main, and I often have 3 counterspells in my sideboard mixing between Dispel, Negate, Disdainful Stroke and Counterflux. I think Dovin's Veto is better than all 4 of those.
If that's the case, why weren't those other counterspells in your sideboard also Negates?
In other news, I'm going to rewrite the primer for spring cleaning. If anyone has any input or suggestions let's discuss them now.
I could maybe see still running a Dispel, but Disdainful Stroke would need a huge surge of must-counter cmc4+ creatures to become relevant over DV (in a deck that doesn't also invalidate countermagic with Cavern of Souls). Counterflux's overload was never really relevant IMO.
Against UW and tron I both want Dovin's Veto, but I might want Disdainful stroke since that is slightly better against tron even though it's worse against UW. UW mirrors are generally decided by who resolves the first threat and Dovin's Veto is so devastating there that the upsides of Disdainful Stroke do not outweigh the upsides of Dovin's Veto.
It's also false to claim UWx is the only matchup where uncounterability is relevant; there's plenty of minor combo decks that get got pretty hard by it. I can also see an argument for bringing in DV whilst I wouldn't bring in Negate vs GDS,.
Why would you specifically want Dovin's Veto against Tron over Negate when the only counter magic they run is Warping Wail, which does exactly 0 relevant things against us?
And as far as the combo decks, I guess it depends? /shrug. Until they become more oppressive/dominant/whatever, I'd rather stay grounded in what actually is.
Why would you bring in anything resembling Negate against Grixis Death's Shadow? That just seems bad. They're beating you with mana efficiency all day, every day. Not only that, but what's your plan for Negate in this match? Get their 1-of Liliana of the Veil or maybe a random cantrip on turn 2? I'm legitimately confused about this because there are so many other cards I'd rather have before going for an upgraded Negate. They're not trying to play Grixis control against you.
I didn't claim UW control was the only deck I would want Dovin's Veto. I said out of the "top decks right now." If Jeskai control, Grixis control, Blue Moon, Ad Nauseam and a few other decks were prevalent, I would probably consider it more seriously. Until that day comes, I'm not sure what all the fuss is about.
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Snapcaster Mage
Planeswalkers (5)
3 Nahiri, the Harbinger
2 Teferi, Hero of Dominaria
Spells (26)
4 Serum Visions
4 Path to Exile
4 Lightning Helix
2 Lightning Bolt
2 Search for Azcanta
2 Cryptic Command
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Settle the Wreckage
1 Electrolyze
1 Mana Leak
1 Negate
1 Logic Knot
1 Spell Snare
1 Remand
2 Celestial Colonnade
2 Field of Ruin
4 Flooded Strand
2 Hallowed Fountain
3 Island
1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Sacred Foundry
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Steam Vents
1 Sulfur Falls
1 Arid Mesa
1 Glacial Fortress
2 Damping Sphere
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Disdainful Stroke
1 Dispel
1 Negate
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Celestial Purge
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Timely Reinforcements
Round 1 Humans 2-0
Both games I drew well and won off Cryptic Command tapping their team down so Nahiri could ult. Settle the Wreckage was awkward here game 1 when my opponent saw it with Freebooter, could have cost me the game.
Round 2 Arclight Phoenix 2-1
game 1 Settle won the game, offing 3 phoenixes to make Nahiri ult. Game 2 went very long and had an awkward boardstate with them having Pyromancer's Ascension and a Thing in the Ice on 1 counter, making me not play Nahiri to kill the Ascension because I wanted to kill the thing after it flipped. Game 3 we had some interesting Surgical Extraction fights where he tried to Surgical my Path to Exile and I Surgicalled my own in response. Later he tried it again and this time I let it happen, Surgicalling Faithless Looting instead on a crucial turn. Ended up with a clutch attack of Colonnade and Snapcaster into a Crackling Drake where if he had Lightning Axe I would have been dead on the backswing.
Round 3 Elves 2-1
I killed a lot of elves game 1. Game 2 I stumbled on mana and didn't kill a lot of elves. Game 3 I killed even more elves than in game 1.
Round 4 Cascade Restore Balance 2-1
Had to laugh a bit that after 3 rounds of beating top tier the finals of the night was a fringe deck. Game 1 I get Armageddon'd but get to rebuild, play Nahiri and just Emrakul him after getting Geddon'd a second time. Game 2 I clique him to see two Cascade spells and a Blood Moon, get Geddon'd twice and Blood Moon'd that game then die to Gargodon. Game 3 After stabilizing with Teferi my opponent plays 4 threats over one untap, getting to resolve O-ring on Nahiri and Armageddon with Gargodon on suspend. I have the Path so I rummage for a white source which I find on time and get to kill Gargodon so Nahiri ults for lethal.
Nahiri stole so many games that night, I was very impressed. Looking back at the list I think I want to cram in one more sideboard card vs creature decks. Electrolyze should probably just be Lightning Bolt 3, Remand I ran only for aesthetic reasons and shouls be Mana Leak 2. I still hate Settle the Wreckage and it was awful against humans, ramped elves into Craterhoof Behemoth, and won me an unwinnable game against Phoenix so I'm not sure what to think.
Modern: BG Rock, Grixis Control, UW Control
Commander: Prossh, Skyraider of Kher
"Win or lose, naught to choose - all men are equal when their memory fades. No one knows, friends or foes, if Valhalla lies beyond the grave." - Motörhead “Deaf Forever”
The exile ability is very relevant right now. Nahiri still has the downsides that made her fall out of favour, but I think she might actually be a decent pick right now.
@ Bearscape : interesting list. Against which creature do you feel Nahiri's exile ability is the most relevant ?
Cheers !
Aggro: Naya Burn RWG
Combo: Scapeshift RG
Control: Jeskai Control UWR
Legacy
Control: Miracles UW
Aggro: Burn R