Coming back to modern after a LONG layoff. As a mtgo only player I am considering buying this deck in paper before trying it. It seems crazy but MAN is this deck sweet! I always loved the archetype but Whir really brings it to that next level. Few comments looking over a few lists...
4 Mishras bauble should be base in the deck. It makes mulligans a bit harder but the interactions with both Tezz minus(get your card back) and Improvise are pretty insane. It just seems like a free artifact that turns on mox opal also(2-3 seems right if you play 4 Bauble). Yeah it feels gross knowing itll get reprinted and lose 90% of its value but its worth it to improve the deck imo.
Also Crucible+Ghost Quarter seems insane right now. Lots of greedy deaths shadow decks/decks dependent on tron lands. PLus the cycle lands should bring some loam decks out or more valakut decks.
Love your list radouf. Thats pretty much exactly what I was thinking in my head that i would test from. What are everyones thoughts on liliana of the veil? Just unnecessary?
Mishra's Bauble does have a real downside despite being an artifact. It has great interactions like you mentioned but those come at the cost of not cycling it for a new card until later in the game. It can be an accelerator for Whir of Invention or Mox Opal but when you have neither of those it is actively worse than any other card in your deck, since that is exactly what it represents a turn later. It is also unlikely to add to your count towards Tezzeret's -4 and is not a very good card to be hitting off his +1 when looking for action. If you are going to play the card you have to play it in place of mostly non-artifact slots which are quite valuable.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
U/B Tezzeret Control
Sultai Midrange
Anything Innovative
Maybe it's because I play 4 serum visions and can set up my topdecks better, the bauble "downside" of not cycling until next turn, often is an advantage for me in the following common situations:
- Need to get bridge active. I've lost many games because I needed to topdeck a 1 or 0 cmc. Bauble can sit in play or come down at no cost to shrink hand.
- Hide my topdeck from discard. Turn 1 visions putting foundry or whatever on top with a bauble is great vs all the death's shadow discard running around.
On another note, I finally bought 3 blood moons online and now feel ready to play the competitive league. 11-7 so far in total matches. Beating Valakut is great. Grixis variants posing the hardest challenge. Games 1 I usually win, but their counter magic and k commands usually overwhelm games 2-3. I've been considering putting in hangarback in the board to try to outgrind. Herald is ok so far, but tasigur or angler just comes down so fast sometimes.
Been testing contraband kingpin as a 1 of. Can't be bolted, the scry is real, and wears a sword well vs goyf and the other non-shadow big boys.
New to following this deck but I'm really loving the builds. I'm working on getting the expensive cards for Terraxxion's list, which I'm partial to so far. Something I wanted to interject here, would Expedition Map make a good addition to the deck, to get Academy Ruins or Ghost Quarter, maybe allowing us to shave a copy of Ghost Quarter for another source (maybe even going with a singleton Darksteel Citadel)?
Tolaria West sure sounds powerful when you can tutor for any utility land, EE, Ballista and Chalice of the Void. However the upside of running a singleton Exped Map also enabling Whir into Fair (into Crucible into unlimited Fair), giving us 6 effective ways to access Inventor's Fair, is sounding pretty nuts. Also, map into Tolaria West. Gee, the Toolbox is real!
I guess it boils down to *What* do we want to be toolboxing into?
I am running neither EE nor Chalice nor Ballista at the moment, but it's admittedly because I want to start to work from the core out, which I'm still trying to figure out & they're are not what I thought I'd be toolboxing into. But I'll sure put them on my watch-list / maybe-board. Gee, that power though..:
I'll give you that: singletons Tolaria West and Expedition Map along Fair, Ruins, EE, Chalice and Ballista looks completely nuts at first glance. Like there's a whole gameplan in there, a whole new layer/dimension to our strategy. A whole lot many more instant speed Demonic Tutor / Chord of Artifact we can be running at essentially no cost.
Dammit, and I thought this was already hard to pilot with the Baubles and the Whirs
/e: aaaand Tolaria West into Welding Jar just became one of my favourite (future) plays.
Do you mind my asking why you hate serum visions? I play 4 and find it invaluable to avoid mulligans and have a meaningful turn 1 play. In combination with bauble, I can make informed scry decisions turn one on the play. And often it lets me know if I should crack my bauble or keep it to turn on opal the next turn.
For reference, I play 4 visions and 3 baubles, with a 4/3 foundry sword split to maximize combo consistency.
I mean I'm up for trying quicksilver fountain but it really doesn't pass the sniff test to me. They can probably ignore it for 1-2 turns, unless you have it turn 3 its awfully slow vs tron (they will just karn/ostone it probably), valakut can target fetchlands and then crack them (same for any BGx type deck if you wanted to try vs them). You could theoretically squeeze out burn/zoo but they will have generally dealt their damage by the time this card is doing anything.
Regarding stony silence - echoing truth is the answer you're looking for. EoT truth make a bunch of tokens, untap and thoughtseize it, or just make another wave of tokens and crack your baubles when they go to replay it.
On that note, I am really surprised at the number of people not running liliana of the veil in this deck. Cranes/tokens defend her well, we discard swords for value, she can sit behind a bridge and keep our hand down/eat theirs/tick towards ult. The card fits like a glove in this deck imo and its strange to see few lists with it.
Bauble is good for all reasons mentioned. Scry 1 with fetch. Hide card from liliana/discard, lower your hand for bridge, enable improvise, etc
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
@radouf - can you speak to the crucible + GQ + Fountain synergies some more?
I've been trying to make the deck work for my personal style (reactive mostly) and it hasn't been going well. I've been drawn in some wild directions because of it, more closely resembling UWb control with Whir for ThopSword as the finishers. With all the control decks playing Spreading Seas as a 4-of, it may be Quicksilver Fountains time to shine.
So I'd love to hear your experiences with the land disruption package. Do you find yourself GQ'ing thier lands that are already flooded to keep the fountain online? How often are you saccing fountain to foundry? Do you feel like you want to increase the number of foundry to always have a sac outlet for fountain? Sorry for bombarding you with questions lol. Just don't have much time to get out and test these days. Thanks!
R1 vs Daniel on Eldrazi Tron. G1 He's on the play, I lose to his T2 Thought-Knot Seer taking my Bridge into Karn shortly after. Not much I could do here.
G2 I resolve Quicksilver Fountain and, mark my words, it did HEAVY work. When I resolved it off Watery Grave, Island and Pentad Prism, I watched all of his tron lands, Eldrazi Temple, then GQ, then Sea-Gate Wreckage sink into quicksilver when I just had my fetches turn into painless mana. Of course I had Foundry up and was ready to blow the Fountain up the minute he would stop making his land drops. Well this little (very one sided) game bought me several turns during which I casually assembled Thopter-Sword and started the overhead beatdown, chumping his pair of TKS and laughing at his underpowered (because mana) 3/3 Ballista.
G3 I get the nuts of T1 Jar, Bauble, Opal, cast Capsule, virtual scry off my fetch, pass the turn. Already gripping on Thopter Foundry, T2 I topdeck Sword of the Meek FTW. 1-0 Matches.
R2 vs Jonathan on Merfolk. G1 Just play around Cursecatcher and Whir into Bridge at the end of turn 4, after Pushing a couple fishes down a cliff. Thopter-Sword. Hello, I run 7 Bridges now. G2 Thoughtseize takes a Negate, I slam Bridge, Whir into Witchbane Orb to shut off any running Hurkyl's Recall that could happen, and draw into Tezz and Thopter-Sword within a couple of turns. Deck is on fire, really. Matches 2-0.
R3 vs - sigh - Max on Green Tron. G1 on the play I curve out like this: T2 I power out double Prism because I intend to smash faces, T3 Tezz: 5 dmg output, incoming 10 next turn. Of course he has natural Tron and drops a Karn on my face, who at least is still going to die to 5/5 beats no matter what. To my great surprise, he eats one of my lands. This tips me toward expecting a Stone to clean up the rest next turn. My T4 I smash for 10 but then, as expected, all my efforts and pretty insane dmg output get blown into Oblivion by a Stone. GG. Praise to Prism, we had game though!
G2 on the play, I keep a very reasonable six of land, land, Prism, Tezz, Bridge, Map (which I've been very happy to see every time including this one), a hand that becomes excellent when I scry Thoughtseize to top (To self: OMG could I maybe make it, this time???). T1 he makes an obnoxious play that, in retrospect, changed everything and revealed how awesome my hand (and map) were. He Needles Ghost Quarter. Ok, well Map is still Fair (into anything), Ruins, and/or my third land drop.
Going on with my life, I proceed to T2 Thoughtseize into T3 smashing Tezz him. But no matter how I spun it, I couldn't kill him through his grip of Stirrings, natural goddamn Tron again, 2x Wurmcoil and a Nature's Claim. Best case scenario my damage output will be 25 by the time he has a lifelinking Wurmcoil out to block... Then leaving him at 1. So I reluctantly smash for what I can until we start grinding and I have to drop a Bridge to insulate myself from the Wurmcoils. Tezz is now up to four loyalty, and this guy, this Tron guy, he casts: Orbs of Warding. Just wtf? Both of my main wincons are now offline, and I have no way to deal with this [edit: in retrospect, maybe I should've just went for it, tutor up my two Sword of the Meek and put him on a 10 turn clock off thopter beats. Playing at Lantern speed RPM, maybe this could've worked. But I didn't]
Fast forward Thopter-Sword is assembled but I'm not sure just what to do with it, Needle on Karn and double Welding Jar up to protect my junk, my Map grabs a Ruins, grabbing me a Map, grabbing me a Fair, grabbing me a Crucible, grabbing me a Jester's Cap, then I realize this doesn't work either because of the Orbs. DUH! Well we end up on one of the grindiest, messiest board state I ever saw haha. Time is called and I concede to him in good sport, but well... lol so close, I guess? Matches 2-1.
R4 vs Cedric on Kiki-Chord. G1 on the play, I establish a board lock with double Jar back-up, and Ruins for recursion. This will save me from 5+ Qasali Pridemage activations (he's looping it with Witness, and later duplicating it with Kiki) throughout the game. Tezz ult takes it just before my engine is turned off by his Whi.. err, Chorded for Magus of the Moon! Yee-HAW.
G2 I'm baiting him into Damnation territory, keeping the Yards clean with dual-Relics online, and gripping onto a Needle I have yet to deploy, which might have been a bit overconfident since, welp, I then die to Kiki-Jikki with mana open, Needle in hand haha. Yeah, on my turn 4, I hold back firing the Wrath because I still don't think there's enough value on the board. He EOT Restos and casts the Kiki-Jikki he's just topdecked. I realize my mistake. In response to Kiki, I crack both Relics and hope for a Fatal Push. ***** happens.
G3 I'm on the play and face a T2 Stony Silence. But Flaying Tendrils his board of Hierarch, Bird, Pridemage and Voice into Padeem watching over a Bridge, and massive card advantage meant we were taking this one home boys. Tezz FTW. Matches 3-1, actual crowd went wild.
Some field notes:
- Expedition Map now means any Whir we topdeck can grab us Inventors' Fair into Crucible into anything forever -- this is insane. I'd call the top decks this deck now has, insane. I just got my hands on a shiny Tolaria West and will try to fit it in along Walking Ballista, just for the sake of even insane-er lines. Expedition Map is also the third Ghost Quarter. Actually, every Whir now also becomes the third Ghost Quarter. Or Ruins. Or Engineered Explosives. As does Tolaria West. Gee, this is overwhelming.
- Quicksilver Fountain singlehandedly took another game for me today. To answer @Jayjayhooks' questions: If I have a Ghost Quarter it's turning into an Island at my upkeep, but I can respond to the trigger by blowing up one of their land, indeed. But in games I've played with it so far, I never needed to: they could stop their land drops (hey, fine by me!), but then I have the opportunity to topdeck a land myself, giving us another round of merry go fountain-ing. So far, this is what happens the most. But then once you've slowed down the game progression to a crawl, you need to get a clock on. That's why I don't hesitate too much to sac' the Fountain to the Foundry, along a couple used Prisms and such. You don't need to increase the Foundry count: you already run 5-8 Foundries, and Fountain will buy you time to find it anyway! What you're looking for is kind of a built-in feature
- MB 4x Baubles, 3x Mox Opal and 2x Welding Jar: the turbo package. This has really served me well. I'm getting used to sequencing with the Baubles, and their utility (scrying, info, card hiding) is real. Echo that for Opals and Jars. The only reason I would consider cutting some is because I'm getting short on MB silver-bullet slots. However each one of these pieces get better with running more of the others. That's why I'm actually super scared of moving anything here. Deck feels smoother than ever right now. I know we're walking a thin line between Lands, Opals, cheap trinkets, etc.
All in all, I think the deck is extremely strong right now and well positioned in this somewhat grindy metagame. Some games the deck would just pilot itself. Topdecks really feel live, can't stress that enough. And thanks to @Racing089 for the tip on going up to 4x Tezz. It really makes sense in this Whir shell that's so action packed and that potentially produces lots of ressources fast! We'll keep working on the Tron match-up; we'll get there. Hopefully.
Changes going forward? Mainboard is really tight and action packed IMO, I wouldn't change much in it. Perhaps bring back Needle in the main cause when you need it, you really need it. I also want to try the singleton Tolaria West, and am a little torn on what to cut. Might be Opal/Bauble/fourth push or might put the 3rd Brutality out to the sideboard. As for the sideboard, Mechanized Production is in. It's the most inevitable wincon we have (ran it to great success in Lantern; ask @Crexalbo). It strengthen the Bridge-lock and wins boardstalls like no other card can. Plus: just figured out that Mechanizing your Welding Jar (where we use to stick it on Codex Shredder) is as sticky as it gets.
@BadMcFadden: I was on Lili for the longest time, being the more prison-y controlly kind of player. I still feel like I *run* her, it's just that now she has wings and is a 5/5. (The function of hand-size suppression 'tween her and Herald of Anguish is similar in my experience; and what I'm mostly looking for in this SB slot; except you trade her ultimate potential for one more 5/5 smasher! And her edict for a machine gunning demon). Am I making sense?
It's Lost Legacy (usually naming Kolaghan's command, Cryptic command, Ad Nauseam, Stony Silence, Karn, etc.) except slower, but it can be whirred into, faired into, mapped into, Tezz'ed into, and reccured with Ruins as an hyper-Ashiok/Lantern hybrid and alternate wincon. Plus you get to actually see what theyre packing and pick, so you cant whiff here. And you can choose lands (Valakut
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
MODERN Blue Lantern, UBx Tezzerator. OLD SCHOOL 93/94 «The Pain Train» Black Sligh, Esper «Machine Gun» Artifacts, Jund «Psycho» Ponza-Disko.
I played a similar list to yours a month or so ago, minus the baubles (mainly because I sold them ) and the newly found hosers. What I wanted to ask was:
1. How do you navigate the (Jund) DS matchup, since they pack so much mainboard hate?
2. Why no Surgical Extraction post SB or no permanent removal (like Unmaking/Decay)
3. Probable alternatives to baubles, because they still are a dead draw in the late game, at least on my past experience.
From past experiences with the archetype, I've always had problems with card flow later in the game and the baubles didn't help me then. I could put one or 2 Citadels to offset the artifact count needed for the Opals and try some Serums (new art ftw) and a silver bullet more. I really like the idea of the Expedition Map.
Might try it this Thursday without the cap (just bought one :p), although I'd recomend a lone Ashiok in the board, always worked wonders for me, especially against control and grindy MUs.
I played a similar list to yours a month or so ago, minus the baubles (mainly because I sold them ) and the newly found hosers. What I wanted to ask was:
1. How do you navigate the (Jund) DS matchup, since they pack so much mainboard hate?
2. Why no Surgical Extraction post SB or no permanent removal (like Unmaking/Decay)
3. Probable alternatives to baubles, because they still are a dead draw in the late game, at least on my past experience.
From past experiences with the archetype, I've always had problems with card flow later in the game and the baubles didn't help me then. I could put one or 2 Citadels to offset the artifact count needed for the Opals and try some Serums (new art ftw) and a silver bullet more. I really like the idea of the Expedition Map.
Might try it this Thursday without the cap (just bought one :p), although I'd recomend a lone Ashiok in the board, always worked wonders for me, especially against control and grindy MUs.
@Alphabetgames: This is a tough call. I'm really weary of cutting Capsule because in relying less on early Ensnaring Bridge, we rely more on spot removal. And looping Capsule with Ruins still wins fair games. Also, we need a critical mass of artifacts for all this synergy (low CMC to power out Opal also) to work. Right now, I know I've got enough. So each piece I cut is done at the risk of throwing off balance this somewhat fragile build (Whir is SLOW if you're not powering it out with the turbo package). This is why I wouldn't cut an artifact, and especially not the Bauble since it enables ramping and also gives us scry action, which I've come to appreciate heaps. Maybe the fourth, but then this messes up with the lands/Turbo-Xerox/Opal metalcraft setup which is seriously reliable as it is. So right now I'm looking at cutting the fourth Fatal Push, or shipping the third Collective Brutality out to the board. However since I think we're softer to Burn than to midrange decks, it's likely the fourth Push that's getting out. I KNOW this contradicts my argument toward keeping Capsule in, but it's rather that I prefer having a removal spell that's also synergistic, than a removal spell that has no added value to it. But bare with me, these are my thoughts, far into brewing realms.
@MrTzoulis:
1. We have more board stabilizing cards than they have answers for it; and we also have answers (Jars) to their answers. So, step 1 is leaning on sheer redundancy (through their discard) to jam a Bridge or Thopter-Sword into play ASAP while Pushing what you can. Step 2 is just cruising out to victory. If things go south, you have 4x Whir, 4x Tezz, 1x Fair, 2-3x Bridges and 2-3 Thopter-Swords that you can naturally draw into that will stabilize the game for ya. Err, it's pretty straightforward. This will work when your draws overpower them, which can still fail as they have heaps powerful cards; they're a Jund deck. But we can out-Jund them, which is pretty cool.
2.1 I would love to run Surgical mainly to extract me some Tron lands when I can. However, though we get reliable access to Ghost Quarter thanks to the sheer number of them that we run, on top of Map, I don't feel like I have reliable access to Surgical and especially in the window where they're relevant (before Tron is assembled) and no guarantee whatsoever that there'll be a GQ to complement it. In Lantern we get to Shred 'em so they Extraction strategy becomes super reliable. We don't have that luxury here. So I'm trying out Fountain, to good results so far, thanks to synergy with the shell. Now the other reasons I'd run extraction is to hate on GY decks, however Relics and Cage do that just as well while being 100% more synergistic. And Relic has the upside of protecting your Tezz/Bridge/Foundry from opposing Surgicals -- a lesson learned the hard way!
2.2 Permanent removal can be seen as lacking in my list. However, the main permanent I wanna be removing is Stony Silence, and if you read in my last report, you'll see that we can just steamroll straight through it, so it's not even that bad. Thoughtseize is my go-to card to punch a hole through which we get to set up, and then we cruisin', while also dealing with counterspells and combo match-ups better than Decay or Unmaking or Truth would. Also, I don't like running cards to answer just a couple silver bullets they might draw (but have wayyy higher odds of NOT drawing into) ...while we can just power through as I said. So, turning back the mic to you, what permanent do you wanna be removing exactly? That doesn't get walled by Bridge or a swarm of Thopters, that can't be Needle'd (synergy flag)? /edit: Oh, I guess Orbs of Warding Well, I'm leaning more toward some proactive solution. See Mechanized Production.
3. I'm getting to like Baubles very much as they're part of a package, really, and late game they still are free scry in a deck that's built to gain you time, so I really don't mind drawing them on the late too. Before I was going turbo, no Baubles meant singleton Opal, and I had a Nihil Spellbomb in as well which cantrips. I was probably two lands, and kept phasing in and out some numbers of Serum Visions -- which I like, but is not the most synergistic option we have. I've left Citadels behind a while ago, as I just couldn't manage Whir with all the colorless lands we run (Fair, Ruins, 2-3x GQ), while it also hinders our Pentad Prism (what a card) game. That being said, Expedition Map + Crucible in a deck with Whirs and Inventors' Fair gives you absurd late game. It's actually hard to manage all these decision trees!
I've had lukewarm experience with Ashiok, although I want to love him/her/it, it hasn't been reliable. But I'm really happy if it works for you! On my part, if I wanted to attack control match-ups, I'd add LotV before Ashiok. Keep us posted on your list and results!
@zomgarcwind posted this frankenstein of an Affinity build, bridging the gap between some (lots) of the control elements we're discussing here, Affinity, and also more interestingly, the Scrap Trawler Tezz variant that @Ace1 has been tinkering (and winning) with. To my very impartial eye (/s), this is basically a Tezz deck even though Tezz is not featured in this particular proposal Food for thought!
Picked up Affinity back in November and have loved playing it but decided to tech it out a bit. Last 5 tournaments:
4-0
3-1
2-1-1
4-0
4-0
Before i post my build, yes it is different than traditional affinity but in my meta it really puts in work because 90% of my Meta is slaughtered by a t1 Chalice for 1, not to mention all the other lines of play this build has. Not saying it is for every meta but Trawler is insane in this particular build.
So many lines of play but basically you asap get either:
1) Ravager/Trawler going- This allows you to sack 0 cost to ravager then recur them, its why chalice doesnt hurt you because you can sack it, play what you want, then recur and recast it. same with EE, Opal for mana, Citadel for an extra mana, crypt to screw goyfs over and over
2) Map/Fair/Crucible- Go grab the bullets you need to win the game, thinning your deck of lands, and if trawler is out everytime you map you can get a 0 cost back to EE/Chalice/+1 Ravager.
So yes the build is different, but it is badass, and i suggest you play atleast 2-3 matches just for fun to see what you guys think. So many decks it shuts down and just completely wrecks so many strategies because of all the answers it has. Yeah ill bridge YOU every turn, and take my +1/+1 counter. Or EE for 5 because of Chromatic Lantern. Blood moon who?
Only thing i could see is running either Atog or Gargadon in the side for an extra sac outlet
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
MODERN Blue Lantern, UBx Tezzerator. OLD SCHOOL 93/94 «The Pain Train» Black Sligh, Esper «Machine Gun» Artifacts, Jund «Psycho» Ponza-Disko.
Are we playing the same format? How and where do you get the 7+ mana and multiple turns to make these seemingly mediocre plays? Especially when you're running prisms over talismans that sit there empty and useless after your first whir?
I just cannot imagine a situation where its a good line to go t1 map, t2 map for tolaria, t3 transmute, t4 explosives/chalice/jar/ballista... the sequences are cute, but unless you're stripping the living hell out of their hand and sitting behind a bridge how do you get the time and space for this nonsense? And if you have that space why don't you just thopter+sword and win the game?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
Are we playing the same format? How and where do you get the 7+ mana and multiple turns to make these seemingly mediocre plays? Especially when you're running prisms over talismans that sit there empty and useless after your first whir?
I just cannot imagine a situation where its a good line to go t1 map, t2 map for tolaria, t3 transmute, t4 explosives/chalice/jar/ballista... the sequences are cute, but unless you're stripping the living hell out of their hand and sitting behind a bridge how do you get the time and space for this nonsense? And if you have that space why don't you just thopter+sword and win the game?
Agree completely. Those lines, while cute, don't beat any of the top decks before we're dead and is why I am an avid supporter of going all-in with opals/baubles and just streamlining the deck. I'll keep 1 Crucible in though on the off-chance of naturally drawing infinite.
Whir is there to get missing thopter/sword piece or a bridge 95% of the time. Post-board it might be used for a cage or witchbane orb. I'm not interested in setting up crazy expensive loops or grindy value engines.
On that note how effective is crucible of worlds vs tron? Does it take too long to setup GQ lock? And don't they just break it withrelic of progenitus? Is there any better way to fight tron? (ahem - that quicksilver fountain trick that I was crapping on perhaps?).
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
[...] but unless you're *snip* sitting behind a bridge how do you get the time and space for this nonsense?[...]
Exactly.
And this "non-sense" is using free slots by the way. Tolaria can replace basically any land, and Ballista is just a bullet I'm choosing to run.
Remember a page ago where everyone was agreeing on "We need to topdeck better". Well that's what we're adressing here, at the cost of cutting one River if tears.
This isn't a way to stabilize -- we got that covered, don't ee? These are lines to actually win the game / lock further down the opponent / get some more pressure going.
Are we playing the same format? How and where do you get the 7+ mana and multiple turns to make these seemingly mediocre plays? Especially when you're running prisms over talismans that sit there empty and useless after your first whir?
I just cannot imagine a situation where its a good line to go t1 map, t2 map for tolaria, t3 transmute, t4 explosives/chalice/jar/ballista... the sequences are cute, but unless you're stripping the living hell out of their hand and sitting behind a bridge how do you get the time and space for this nonsense? And if you have that space why don't you just thopter+sword and win the game?
I actually have to agree here. Tolaria West is way to slow and so isn't expedition map.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
U/B Tezzeret Control
Sultai Midrange
Anything Innovative
I'll agree both cards are low opportunity cost, especially tolaria west, but are the upsides really there? Best case I think would be getting a t3 ghost quarter vs tron (t2 talisman/prism) or finding academy ruins vs abrupt decay decks. I would just think the situations you were describing where you whir for map, map for tolaria, tolaria for a card are extremely corner case rather than awesome engines.
Usually if I've stabilized the thing I want to do is assemble thoptersword or draw a tezz. None of map/west moves get me to tezz - and any sequence that gets me to thopter/sword requires map for fair and then activate fair. At those points I might as well just play a foundry over the map (all you lose is the case of mapping for a quarter early vs tron). Or if I'm looking to be cute maybe muddle the mixture.
I'd love to have a tutorable/whirrable win condition beyond tezz and the combo - but I'm not sure ballista is it. An advantage of this deck is that you strand their removal in hand, so moving in on a creature win condition makes those draws live again. The best I could come up with was jinxed idol or the rack neither of which is where I really want to be.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Mishra's Bauble does have a real downside despite being an artifact. It has great interactions like you mentioned but those come at the cost of not cycling it for a new card until later in the game. It can be an accelerator for Whir of Invention or Mox Opal but when you have neither of those it is actively worse than any other card in your deck, since that is exactly what it represents a turn later. It is also unlikely to add to your count towards Tezzeret's -4 and is not a very good card to be hitting off his +1 when looking for action. If you are going to play the card you have to play it in place of mostly non-artifact slots which are quite valuable.
Sultai Midrange
Anything Innovative
- Need to get bridge active. I've lost many games because I needed to topdeck a 1 or 0 cmc. Bauble can sit in play or come down at no cost to shrink hand.
- Hide my topdeck from discard. Turn 1 visions putting foundry or whatever on top with a bauble is great vs all the death's shadow discard running around.
On another note, I finally bought 3 blood moons online and now feel ready to play the competitive league. 11-7 so far in total matches. Beating Valakut is great. Grixis variants posing the hardest challenge. Games 1 I usually win, but their counter magic and k commands usually overwhelm games 2-3. I've been considering putting in hangarback in the board to try to outgrind. Herald is ok so far, but tasigur or angler just comes down so fast sometimes.
Been testing contraband kingpin as a 1 of. Can't be bolted, the scry is real, and wears a sword well vs goyf and the other non-shadow big boys.
I guess it boils down to *What* do we want to be toolboxing into?
I am running neither EE nor Chalice nor Ballista at the moment, but it's admittedly because I want to start to work from the core out, which I'm still trying to figure out & they're are not what I thought I'd be toolboxing into. But I'll sure put them on my watch-list / maybe-board. Gee, that power though..:
I'll give you that: singletons Tolaria West and Expedition Map along Fair, Ruins, EE, Chalice and Ballista looks completely nuts at first glance. Like there's a whole gameplan in there, a whole new layer/dimension to our strategy. A whole lot many more instant speed Demonic Tutor / Chord of Artifact we can be running at essentially no cost.
Dammit, and I thought this was already hard to pilot with the Baubles and the Whirs
/e: aaaand Tolaria West into Welding Jar just became one of my favourite (future) plays.
OLD SCHOOL 93/94 «The Pain Train» Black Sligh, Esper «Machine Gun» Artifacts, Jund «Psycho» Ponza-Disko.
For reference, I play 4 visions and 3 baubles, with a 4/3 foundry sword split to maximize combo consistency.
Regarding stony silence - echoing truth is the answer you're looking for. EoT truth make a bunch of tokens, untap and thoughtseize it, or just make another wave of tokens and crack your baubles when they go to replay it.
On that note, I am really surprised at the number of people not running liliana of the veil in this deck. Cranes/tokens defend her well, we discard swords for value, she can sit behind a bridge and keep our hand down/eat theirs/tick towards ult. The card fits like a glove in this deck imo and its strange to see few lists with it.
Bauble is good for all reasons mentioned. Scry 1 with fetch. Hide card from liliana/discard, lower your hand for bridge, enable improvise, etc
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
I've been trying to make the deck work for my personal style (reactive mostly) and it hasn't been going well. I've been drawn in some wild directions because of it, more closely resembling UWb control with Whir for ThopSword as the finishers. With all the control decks playing Spreading Seas as a 4-of, it may be Quicksilver Fountains time to shine.
So I'd love to hear your experiences with the land disruption package. Do you find yourself GQ'ing thier lands that are already flooded to keep the fountain online? How often are you saccing fountain to foundry? Do you feel like you want to increase the number of foundry to always have a sac outlet for fountain? Sorry for bombarding you with questions lol. Just don't have much time to get out and test these days. Thanks!
Main changes from last tourney: added Expedition Map to complement the Crucible package. Tweaked the SB a bit. List I was on:
4x Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
4x Whir of Invention
1x Crucible of Worlds
1x Expedition Map
3x Thopter Foundry
2x Sword of the Meek
4x Mishra's Bauble
Bullets
1x Relic of Progenitus
2x Ensnaring Bridge
2x Welding jar
Disruption
1x Executioner's Capsule
4x Fatal Push
3x Collective Brutality
3x Mox Opal
4x Pentad Prism
2x Ghost Quarter
1x Inventors' Fair
1x Academy Ruins
4x Polluted Delta
3x Flooded Strand
3x Watery Grave
4x Darkslick Shores
2x Island
1x Swamp
1x Pithing Needle
1x Relic of Progenitus
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Quicksilver Fountain
1x Trading post
1x Witchbane Orb
3x Thoughtseize
1x Flaying Tendrils
1x Damnation
1x Jester's Cap
1x Padeem, Consul of Innovation
2x Herald of Anguish
Onto the report:
G2 I resolve Quicksilver Fountain and, mark my words, it did HEAVY work. When I resolved it off Watery Grave, Island and Pentad Prism, I watched all of his tron lands, Eldrazi Temple, then GQ, then Sea-Gate Wreckage sink into quicksilver when I just had my fetches turn into painless mana. Of course I had Foundry up and was ready to blow the Fountain up the minute he would stop making his land drops. Well this little (very one sided) game bought me several turns during which I casually assembled Thopter-Sword and started the overhead beatdown, chumping his pair of TKS and laughing at his underpowered (because mana) 3/3 Ballista.
G3 I get the nuts of T1 Jar, Bauble, Opal, cast Capsule, virtual scry off my fetch, pass the turn. Already gripping on Thopter Foundry, T2 I topdeck Sword of the Meek FTW. 1-0 Matches.
R2 vs Jonathan on Merfolk. G1 Just play around Cursecatcher and Whir into Bridge at the end of turn 4, after Pushing a couple fishes down a cliff. Thopter-Sword. Hello, I run 7 Bridges now. G2 Thoughtseize takes a Negate, I slam Bridge, Whir into Witchbane Orb to shut off any running Hurkyl's Recall that could happen, and draw into Tezz and Thopter-Sword within a couple of turns. Deck is on fire, really. Matches 2-0.
R3 vs - sigh - Max on Green Tron. G1 on the play I curve out like this: T2 I power out double Prism because I intend to smash faces, T3 Tezz: 5 dmg output, incoming 10 next turn. Of course he has natural Tron and drops a Karn on my face, who at least is still going to die to 5/5 beats no matter what. To my great surprise, he eats one of my lands. This tips me toward expecting a Stone to clean up the rest next turn. My T4 I smash for 10 but then, as expected, all my efforts and pretty insane dmg output get blown into Oblivion by a Stone. GG. Praise to Prism, we had game though!
G2 on the play, I keep a very reasonable six of land, land, Prism, Tezz, Bridge, Map (which I've been very happy to see every time including this one), a hand that becomes excellent when I scry Thoughtseize to top (To self: OMG could I maybe make it, this time???). T1 he makes an obnoxious play that, in retrospect, changed everything and revealed how awesome my hand (and map) were. He Needles Ghost Quarter. Ok, well Map is still Fair (into anything), Ruins, and/or my third land drop.
Going on with my life, I proceed to T2 Thoughtseize into T3 smashing Tezz him. But no matter how I spun it, I couldn't kill him through his grip of Stirrings, natural goddamn Tron again, 2x Wurmcoil and a Nature's Claim. Best case scenario my damage output will be 25 by the time he has a lifelinking Wurmcoil out to block... Then leaving him at 1. So I reluctantly smash for what I can until we start grinding and I have to drop a Bridge to insulate myself from the Wurmcoils. Tezz is now up to four loyalty, and this guy, this Tron guy, he casts: Orbs of Warding. Just wtf? Both of my main wincons are now offline, and I have no way to deal with this [edit: in retrospect, maybe I should've just went for it, tutor up my two Sword of the Meek and put him on a 10 turn clock off thopter beats. Playing at Lantern speed RPM, maybe this could've worked. But I didn't]
Fast forward Thopter-Sword is assembled but I'm not sure just what to do with it, Needle on Karn and double Welding Jar up to protect my junk, my Map grabs a Ruins, grabbing me a Map, grabbing me a Fair, grabbing me a Crucible, grabbing me a Jester's Cap, then I realize this doesn't work either because of the Orbs. DUH! Well we end up on one of the grindiest, messiest board state I ever saw haha. Time is called and I concede to him in good sport, but well... lol so close, I guess? Matches 2-1.
Notes to self: keep Pithing Needle mainboard. Mechanized Production in.
R4 vs Cedric on Kiki-Chord. G1 on the play, I establish a board lock with double Jar back-up, and Ruins for recursion. This will save me from 5+ Qasali Pridemage activations (he's looping it with Witness, and later duplicating it with Kiki) throughout the game. Tezz ult takes it just before my engine is turned off by his Whi.. err, Chorded for Magus of the Moon! Yee-HAW.
G2 I'm baiting him into Damnation territory, keeping the Yards clean with dual-Relics online, and gripping onto a Needle I have yet to deploy, which might have been a bit overconfident since, welp, I then die to Kiki-Jikki with mana open, Needle in hand haha. Yeah, on my turn 4, I hold back firing the Wrath because I still don't think there's enough value on the board. He EOT Restos and casts the Kiki-Jikki he's just topdecked. I realize my mistake. In response to Kiki, I crack both Relics and hope for a Fatal Push. ***** happens.
G3 I'm on the play and face a T2 Stony Silence. But Flaying Tendrils his board of Hierarch, Bird, Pridemage and Voice into Padeem watching over a Bridge, and massive card advantage meant we were taking this one home boys. Tezz FTW. Matches 3-1, actual crowd went wild.
- Expedition Map now means any Whir we topdeck can grab us Inventors' Fair into Crucible into anything forever -- this is insane. I'd call the top decks this deck now has, insane. I just got my hands on a shiny Tolaria West and will try to fit it in along Walking Ballista, just for the sake of even insane-er lines. Expedition Map is also the third Ghost Quarter. Actually, every Whir now also becomes the third Ghost Quarter. Or Ruins. Or Engineered Explosives. As does Tolaria West. Gee, this is overwhelming.
- Quicksilver Fountain singlehandedly took another game for me today. To answer @Jayjayhooks' questions: If I have a Ghost Quarter it's turning into an Island at my upkeep, but I can respond to the trigger by blowing up one of their land, indeed. But in games I've played with it so far, I never needed to: they could stop their land drops (hey, fine by me!), but then I have the opportunity to topdeck a land myself, giving us another round of merry go fountain-ing. So far, this is what happens the most. But then once you've slowed down the game progression to a crawl, you need to get a clock on. That's why I don't hesitate too much to sac' the Fountain to the Foundry, along a couple used Prisms and such. You don't need to increase the Foundry count: you already run 5-8 Foundries, and Fountain will buy you time to find it anyway! What you're looking for is kind of a built-in feature
- MB 4x Baubles, 3x Mox Opal and 2x Welding Jar: the turbo package. This has really served me well. I'm getting used to sequencing with the Baubles, and their utility (scrying, info, card hiding) is real. Echo that for Opals and Jars. The only reason I would consider cutting some is because I'm getting short on MB silver-bullet slots. However each one of these pieces get better with running more of the others. That's why I'm actually super scared of moving anything here. Deck feels smoother than ever right now. I know we're walking a thin line between Lands, Opals, cheap trinkets, etc.
All in all, I think the deck is extremely strong right now and well positioned in this somewhat grindy metagame. Some games the deck would just pilot itself. Topdecks really feel live, can't stress that enough. And thanks to @Racing089 for the tip on going up to 4x Tezz. It really makes sense in this Whir shell that's so action packed and that potentially produces lots of ressources fast! We'll keep working on the Tron match-up; we'll get there. Hopefully.
Changes going forward? Mainboard is really tight and action packed IMO, I wouldn't change much in it. Perhaps bring back Needle in the main cause when you need it, you really need it. I also want to try the singleton Tolaria West, and am a little torn on what to cut. Might be Opal/Bauble/fourth push or might put the 3rd Brutality out to the sideboard. As for the sideboard, Mechanized Production is in. It's the most inevitable wincon we have (ran it to great success in Lantern; ask @Crexalbo). It strengthen the Bridge-lock and wins boardstalls like no other card can. Plus: just figured out that Mechanizing your Welding Jar (where we use to stick it on Codex Shredder) is as sticky as it gets.
@BadMcFadden: I was on Lili for the longest time, being the more prison-y controlly kind of player. I still feel like I *run* her, it's just that now she has wings and is a 5/5. (The function of hand-size suppression 'tween her and Herald of Anguish is similar in my experience; and what I'm mostly looking for in this SB slot; except you trade her ultimate potential for one more 5/5 smasher! And her edict for a machine gunning demon). Am I making sense?
OLD SCHOOL 93/94 «The Pain Train» Black Sligh, Esper «Machine Gun» Artifacts, Jund «Psycho» Ponza-Disko.
OLD SCHOOL 93/94 «The Pain Train» Black Sligh, Esper «Machine Gun» Artifacts, Jund «Psycho» Ponza-Disko.
I do agree that you seem to be low on some bullets MB. What card would you cut first to make room? Capsule? Bauble?
1. How do you navigate the (Jund) DS matchup, since they pack so much mainboard hate?
2. Why no Surgical Extraction post SB or no permanent removal (like Unmaking/Decay)
3. Probable alternatives to baubles, because they still are a dead draw in the late game, at least on my past experience.
From past experiences with the archetype, I've always had problems with card flow later in the game and the baubles didn't help me then. I could put one or 2 Citadels to offset the artifact count needed for the Opals and try some Serums (new art ftw) and a silver bullet more. I really like the idea of the Expedition Map.
Might try it this Thursday without the cap (just bought one :p), although I'd recomend a lone Ashiok in the board, always worked wonders for me, especially against control and grindy MUs.
@MrTzoulis:
1. We have more board stabilizing cards than they have answers for it; and we also have answers (Jars) to their answers. So, step 1 is leaning on sheer redundancy (through their discard) to jam a Bridge or Thopter-Sword into play ASAP while Pushing what you can. Step 2 is just cruising out to victory. If things go south, you have 4x Whir, 4x Tezz, 1x Fair, 2-3x Bridges and 2-3 Thopter-Swords that you can naturally draw into that will stabilize the game for ya. Err, it's pretty straightforward. This will work when your draws overpower them, which can still fail as they have heaps powerful cards; they're a Jund deck. But we can out-Jund them, which is pretty cool.
2.1 I would love to run Surgical mainly to extract me some Tron lands when I can. However, though we get reliable access to Ghost Quarter thanks to the sheer number of them that we run, on top of Map, I don't feel like I have reliable access to Surgical and especially in the window where they're relevant (before Tron is assembled) and no guarantee whatsoever that there'll be a GQ to complement it. In Lantern we get to Shred 'em so they Extraction strategy becomes super reliable. We don't have that luxury here. So I'm trying out Fountain, to good results so far, thanks to synergy with the shell. Now the other reasons I'd run extraction is to hate on GY decks, however Relics and Cage do that just as well while being 100% more synergistic. And Relic has the upside of protecting your Tezz/Bridge/Foundry from opposing Surgicals -- a lesson learned the hard way!
2.2 Permanent removal can be seen as lacking in my list. However, the main permanent I wanna be removing is Stony Silence, and if you read in my last report, you'll see that we can just steamroll straight through it, so it's not even that bad. Thoughtseize is my go-to card to punch a hole through which we get to set up, and then we cruisin', while also dealing with counterspells and combo match-ups better than Decay or Unmaking or Truth would. Also, I don't like running cards to answer just a couple silver bullets they might draw (but have wayyy higher odds of NOT drawing into) ...while we can just power through as I said. So, turning back the mic to you, what permanent do you wanna be removing exactly? That doesn't get walled by Bridge or a swarm of Thopters, that can't be Needle'd (synergy flag)? /edit: Oh, I guess Orbs of Warding Well, I'm leaning more toward some proactive solution. See Mechanized Production.
3. I'm getting to like Baubles very much as they're part of a package, really, and late game they still are free scry in a deck that's built to gain you time, so I really don't mind drawing them on the late too. Before I was going turbo, no Baubles meant singleton Opal, and I had a Nihil Spellbomb in as well which cantrips. I was probably two lands, and kept phasing in and out some numbers of Serum Visions -- which I like, but is not the most synergistic option we have. I've left Citadels behind a while ago, as I just couldn't manage Whir with all the colorless lands we run (Fair, Ruins, 2-3x GQ), while it also hinders our Pentad Prism (what a card) game. That being said, Expedition Map + Crucible in a deck with Whirs and Inventors' Fair gives you absurd late game. It's actually hard to manage all these decision trees!
I've had lukewarm experience with Ashiok, although I want to love him/her/it, it hasn't been reliable. But I'm really happy if it works for you! On my part, if I wanted to attack control match-ups, I'd add LotV before Ashiok. Keep us posted on your list and results!
TL;DR. Coffee
OLD SCHOOL 93/94 «The Pain Train» Black Sligh, Esper «Machine Gun» Artifacts, Jund «Psycho» Ponza-Disko.
@zomgarcwind posted this frankenstein of an Affinity build, bridging the gap between some (lots) of the control elements we're discussing here, Affinity, and also more interestingly, the Scrap Trawler Tezz variant that @Ace1 has been tinkering (and winning) with. To my very impartial eye (/s), this is basically a Tezz deck even though Tezz is not featured in this particular proposal Food for thought!
OLD SCHOOL 93/94 «The Pain Train» Black Sligh, Esper «Machine Gun» Artifacts, Jund «Psycho» Ponza-Disko.
Are we playing the same format? How and where do you get the 7+ mana and multiple turns to make these seemingly mediocre plays? Especially when you're running prisms over talismans that sit there empty and useless after your first whir?
I just cannot imagine a situation where its a good line to go t1 map, t2 map for tolaria, t3 transmute, t4 explosives/chalice/jar/ballista... the sequences are cute, but unless you're stripping the living hell out of their hand and sitting behind a bridge how do you get the time and space for this nonsense? And if you have that space why don't you just thopter+sword and win the game?
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
Agree completely. Those lines, while cute, don't beat any of the top decks before we're dead and is why I am an avid supporter of going all-in with opals/baubles and just streamlining the deck. I'll keep 1 Crucible in though on the off-chance of naturally drawing infinite.
1) discard + liliana + push + maybe brutality/truth (disruption)
2) bridge (disruption)
3) thopter/sword (win/disruption)
4) tezzeret AoB (win)
Whir is there to get missing thopter/sword piece or a bridge 95% of the time. Post-board it might be used for a cage or witchbane orb. I'm not interested in setting up crazy expensive loops or grindy value engines.
On that note how effective is crucible of worlds vs tron? Does it take too long to setup GQ lock? And don't they just break it withrelic of progenitus? Is there any better way to fight tron? (ahem - that quicksilver fountain trick that I was crapping on perhaps?).
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
Exactly.
And this "non-sense" is using free slots by the way. Tolaria can replace basically any land, and Ballista is just a bullet I'm choosing to run.
Remember a page ago where everyone was agreeing on "We need to topdeck better". Well that's what we're adressing here, at the cost of cutting one River if tears.
This isn't a way to stabilize -- we got that covered, don't ee? These are lines to actually win the game / lock further down the opponent / get some more pressure going.
You're being dismissive.
OLD SCHOOL 93/94 «The Pain Train» Black Sligh, Esper «Machine Gun» Artifacts, Jund «Psycho» Ponza-Disko.
I actually have to agree here. Tolaria West is way to slow and so isn't expedition map.
Sultai Midrange
Anything Innovative
Usually if I've stabilized the thing I want to do is assemble thoptersword or draw a tezz. None of map/west moves get me to tezz - and any sequence that gets me to thopter/sword requires map for fair and then activate fair. At those points I might as well just play a foundry over the map (all you lose is the case of mapping for a quarter early vs tron). Or if I'm looking to be cute maybe muddle the mixture.
I'd love to have a tutorable/whirrable win condition beyond tezz and the combo - but I'm not sure ballista is it. An advantage of this deck is that you strand their removal in hand, so moving in on a creature win condition makes those draws live again. The best I could come up with was jinxed idol or the rack neither of which is where I really want to be.
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron