For those of us who are working with a budget, what suitible replacements are there for goyf? Do we just switch goyf's out for Countryside Crushers, or do we even go the Bloodbraid elf route? Perhaps the extra card off BBE could be a huge benefit. Most of the spells are playable off her, including seismic.
I realize that there is no "replacement" for goyf, but this deck looks like way too much fun to not try something else. The extra $400 is just a bit steep.
I just traded for the Bob's and Lilly's. It is just a bit impossible to find someone willing to trade a goyf, let alone 4.
For those of us who are working with a budget, what suitible replacements are there for goyf? Do we just switch goyf's out for Countryside Crushers, or do we even go the Bloodbraid elf route? Perhaps the extra card off BBE could be a huge benefit. Most of the spells are playable off her, including seismic.
I realize that there is no "replacement" for goyf, but this deck looks like way too much fun to not try something else. The extra $400 is just a bit steep.
I just traded for the Bob's and Lilly's. It is just a bit impossible to find someone willing to trade a goyf, let alone 4.
if you don't have goyfs; a decent replacement could be Tombstalker as a 2 of and 2 more hand disruption spells; Or since this deck is rather weak against opposing Goyfs and KotR's (goyf being one of the best answers to goyf) you could run 2 more single target kill spells; (Terminate, Doomblade, Terror, Maelstrom Pulse)
Another option that could be considered (if you want more bodies) would be Hypnotic Specter, Bloodghast, Countryside Crusher.
I have a Naya iteration of the deck (it's more Aggro Loam as opposed to Rock Loam); and nothing feels better than finding a combo piece off of BBE; so you could also consider her taking Goyf's place.
Bloodbraid Elf is one of my favorite cards; it's like playing Craps with loaded dice. So, maybe try her first and see how you like it; but all of them seem like decent options on paper. Although Bob'ing into a Tombstalker is going to sting a little.
I had all of these cards so I decided to try your list verbatim. Its really quite excellent - this coming from someone that's played MTG since unlimited. This list works out of the box as advertised. Ive had a few irritations with Leyline of the Sanctity but for the most part its solid and feels like just about all matches with the decks I see online winnable.
Do you by chance play online? Id like to compare notes. I need to know what to put in the side vs red burn. Nourish?
I'm in on this now. My list is LSV's list with Seismic Assault replaced with Zombie Infestation. Most of you should remember my old Zombie Loam deck, so this shouldn't come as any surprise. I just can't give up on that dream.
I like his list a lot. I'm not sure about Worm Harvest, though, because I have Infestation. Maybe one more Terminate instead? Also, has anyone considered anything that lets you play extra lands? Maybe Explore? Play another land, maybe get a little dredge action?
I'm also not feeling the sideboard. But I'll play a while with it to see if I can figure out his reasoning.
edit: I actually like Led Zep's sideboard a whole lot more.
I think it appears occasionally in Melira Pod and decks with Unburial Rites.
It's not superbad though because I can just kill it, Loam, and make more zombies.
Part of the reason why Zombie Loam appeals to me so much is it's resilience. There are a lot of reasons why, such as Infestation requiring the discard of any card, not just lands, which makes it potentially dangerous even without Life from the Loam (which can't really be said for Seismic Assault). Something like Norn isn't much of a problem because as soon as it leaves the field.. you're in trouble.
Led Zepp, if I don't want to spend $400 on goyfs do you think Countryside Crusher is a suitable replacement? I understand that nothing is as good as goyf but will the deck suffer a lot because of it?
Infestation is just a personal thing, like I said. I'm not trying to sell it to anyone else.
But I don't think it's worse than Seismic Assault. At least not at the moment. On the plus side, it doesn't need lands specifically, it's cost is less restrictive, and it comes down a turn earlier (not to mention can make two or three guys on that turn). Of course, on the other hand, Norn is a problem, it needs to attack so things like Ghostly Prison aren't fun, sometimes it's a pain to have to play around Goyfs, and of course Spell Snare.
We'll see where it goes. Maybe you're right and it should be tuned back a bit. It could be better used as a strategy to fall back on if Assault has been Extracted or something. Or if your opponent has Leyline of Sanctity. I probably would benefit from having a couple Assault in case of Norn.
But in the end it's a pet deck, so.. bear with me.
Grats on your GP results. I had already replaced the flame jabs with darkblasts, but the noxious revivals I feel are worthy of 2-3 spots. I find myself using them on a dead card in an opponents graveyard quite often. This turns them into a pseudo timewalk in certain situations. Plus I think we need something to retrieve Assault from the grave if we dont draw one in the opening hand.
Maybe there are better options, but for now NR is playable for me.
I'm new to the aggro loam archetype, and I'm running l3dzppln's list, but I just have a few questions:
1. Are 3 Thoughtseizes really necessary? In my experience, thus far, 3 IoK, 2 Raven's Crime, and 2 Thoughtseize are more than enough to go against control. Instead, I'm thinking of going -1 thoughtseize, +1 Kitchen Finks to help with Jund/RDW. Also going to use the empty slot for another finks.
2. Why Go for the Throat over Terminate? Is there some pro-red creature that's causing the list problems? I figure that killing Wurmcoil Engine is important enough to run terminate, and that we don't have any real problems casting it over GftT. And if there is such a creature, is it so bad that a 1/1 split in sb isn't worth it?
I apologize if these questions are stupid, as I said, I am new to the archetype.
I'm new to the aggro loam archetype, and I'm running l3dzppln's list, but I just have a few questions:
1. Are 3 Thoughtseizes really necessary? In my experience, thus far, 3 IoK, 2 Raven's Crime, and 2 Thoughtseize are more than enough to go against control. Instead, I'm thinking of going -1 thoughtseize, +1 Kitchen Finks to help with Jund/RDW. Also going to use the empty slot for another finks.
2. Why Go for the Throat over Terminate? Is there some pro-red creature that's causing the list problems? I figure that killing Wurmcoil Engine is important enough to run terminate, and that we don't have any real problems casting it over GftT. And if there is such a creature, is it so bad that a 1/1 split in sb isn't worth it?
I apologize if these questions are stupid, as I said, I am new to the archetype.
These aren't dumb questions at all; I think the answer to 1) has to do more with personal preference or what he found he wanted in playtesting; that's typically how ratios like that are made. You're free to do what you think your meta demands you do; such as cutting Thoughtseizes for more IoK's to not hemorrhage as much life in the RDW/Jund MU.
I think the answer to number 2) is basically number 2 with the added explaination of; it's easier to cast GftT on T2 when you had to lay down a forest on T1 or T2, which admittedly probably happens very little.
- Kitchen finks is the best anti-aggro answer there is. Jund and RDW/Burn are both too fast for this deck, but only by 1 turn on average, and not by a huge amount of life. The +2 life finks provides (often +4 against Jund) is often enough to just barely stabilize and take control of the game. It won't make the matchups amazing, but it will bring it closer to 50/50. I admit it's not the easiest thing to cast for this deck, but I just can't think of a better answer right now.
- Jund charm over spellbomb and pyroclasm - pyroclasm and spellbomb do what they do better than jund charm, however, jund charm does both, and running 1 jund charm opens up an extra sideboard slot for another answer. Considering that the environment seems to be fairly broad right now, I believe that the versatility of jund charm is worth the sacrifice in power. However, if the environment becomes more focused, I could definitely give Jund Charm the axe.
- Raven's Crime vs. Thoughtseize - This is purely a meta call. Thoughtseize is great against control and certain types of combo (like Twin combo), but only so-so (at best) against eggs and storm. Raven's crime is good against control, excellent against storm and eggs, but terrible against things like twin combo. Right now, however, I don't see many 2 or 3 card combo decks like splinter twin, but more storm like combo decks. That said, thoughtseize's usefulness vs. control can't be denied, so I'm opting to run a 3 raven's crime/2 thoughtseize split in my 75.
- Terminate vs. GftT - I'm testing as a 1/1 split, to see which one I want to see more, and then I'll probably go for 2 of one of the other.
I was originally going to run an Obstinate Baloth, but it's only good against jund, and I want a broader answer, so I opted for another finks.
It's all too true that goyfieboy (they're sooo cute) can suffer from incidental GYhate, but you must examine his role in the deck vs. what Quirion Dryad's would be.
Goyf can come down at practically any time without really needing anything to synergize him into a viable threat. Often he's thrown down to tidy up a crippled opponent. Even if he shrinks, growing again just seems to hapen in short order and it's only aggro decks who put on a lot of pressure who can seize the oppotunity here.
QDryad needs you to cast a flurry of spells to grow it, post haste. Of course, this deck is capable of doing just that, but both Crime and Jab are best used quite early in the game to wreck control and aggro repectively, and taking time out to cast a threat beforehand can loosen your stranglehold on a game. While it's possible to bring it down afterwards as well, you may need both a retrace spell and LftL by that stage in order to grow enough. This seems less dependable.
It seems a viable enough alternative to CCrusher though, especially if you see Celestial Purge around the place.
Hats off for looking aroung for another cheap finisher, goyf does seem a little ubiquitous.
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Some have said embermages lack subtlety. You know what? THEY'RE ALL DEAD!! :mad1:
In reference to number 2, go for the throat was Carrie's idea, and a brilliant one at that. The reason it is not a terminate is because Go for the throat cannot be redirected to spellskite in the splintertwin matchup
That is brilliant. I'll be making changes to my list next time I take it for a spin.
Has anybody tried tibalt in any build he seam quite good. His +1 means we get to dredge more,-2 is good against control, and his ultimate is just winning against mid range
I've tried Tibalt in Jund Aggro Loam, and he's fairly good--at least as good as Faithless Looting. Dredging LftL twice per turn (well, 75% of the time) with a Seismic Assault is insane, and his +1 definitely digs for what I want. His -4 is useless after he +1's into Raven's Crime, though. His -6 should be good, especially against Tron and Bant and if I also have Liliana OTV out, but he keeps dying to equipped Trafts before he can activate it.
I've started packing a pair of Sowing Salts especially for the matchup and still can't seem to win unless I draw both Ghost Quarters and they fumble for several turns. It's so easy for them to go over the top.
Have you actually played the matchup? Because the more I test against it the more I feel like they have inevitability on their side. Sure, if you draw in to 3 IoKs and a Crime to take away their whole hand by turn three you can stop them.. but since you can't take away their pieces it's hard to stop them from assembling. And we really have -no- play against a resolved Karn, let alone an Eldrazi.
Maybe there's something I'm missing, though?
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Its instant dredge if you need it for a kill or to dodge graveyard hate. 2 life can come at a price if you pay for shocklands often
I realize that there is no "replacement" for goyf, but this deck looks like way too much fun to not try something else. The extra $400 is just a bit steep.
I just traded for the Bob's and Lilly's. It is just a bit impossible to find someone willing to trade a goyf, let alone 4.
:symg::symu::symb: Vorosh
:symw::symu::symg: Phelddagrif
:symw::symu::symg: Jenara
:symu::symu::symu: Azami
:symb::symu::symb:DePietro
:symg::symb::symg:Savra
if you don't have goyfs; a decent replacement could be Tombstalker as a 2 of and 2 more hand disruption spells; Or since this deck is rather weak against opposing Goyfs and KotR's (goyf being one of the best answers to goyf) you could run 2 more single target kill spells; (Terminate, Doomblade, Terror, Maelstrom Pulse)
So i guess your options are;
-4 Goyf +2 Tombstalker +2 IoK/Raven's Crime/Duress/Thoughtseize
-4 Goyf +2 Pulse/Terminate +2 IoK/Raven's Crime/Duress/Thoughtseize
-4 Goyf +2 Pulse/Terminate +2 Tombstalker
Another option that could be considered (if you want more bodies) would be Hypnotic Specter, Bloodghast, Countryside Crusher.
I have a Naya iteration of the deck (it's more Aggro Loam as opposed to Rock Loam); and nothing feels better than finding a combo piece off of BBE; so you could also consider her taking Goyf's place.
Bloodbraid Elf is one of my favorite cards; it's like playing Craps with loaded dice. So, maybe try her first and see how you like it; but all of them seem like decent options on paper. Although Bob'ing into a Tombstalker is going to sting a little.
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Thanks to .toRRent for the sig!
I had all of these cards so I decided to try your list verbatim. Its really quite excellent - this coming from someone that's played MTG since unlimited. This list works out of the box as advertised. Ive had a few irritations with Leyline of the Sanctity but for the most part its solid and feels like just about all matches with the decks I see online winnable.
Do you by chance play online? Id like to compare notes. I need to know what to put in the side vs red burn. Nourish?
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Mountain
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Blood Crypt
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Stomping Ground
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
4 Graven Cairns
2 Ghost Quarter
1 Lavaclaw Reaches
1 Twilight Mire
1 Fire-Lit Thicket
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Eternal Witness
Planeswalkers:
3 Liliana of the Veil
Sorceries:
4 Life from the Loam
3 Raven's Crime
3 Flame Jab
3 Faithless Looting
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Worm Harvest
Instants:
1 Terminate
Enchantments:
3 Zombie Infestation
3 Obstinate Baloth
3 Ancient Grudge
2 Pyroclasm
2 Thoughtseize
2 Torpor Orb
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Thorn of Amethyst
I like his list a lot. I'm not sure about Worm Harvest, though, because I have Infestation. Maybe one more Terminate instead? Also, has anyone considered anything that lets you play extra lands? Maybe Explore? Play another land, maybe get a little dredge action?
I'm also not feeling the sideboard. But I'll play a while with it to see if I can figure out his reasoning.
edit: I actually like Led Zep's sideboard a whole lot more.
It's not superbad though because I can just kill it, Loam, and make more zombies.
Part of the reason why Zombie Loam appeals to me so much is it's resilience. There are a lot of reasons why, such as Infestation requiring the discard of any card, not just lands, which makes it potentially dangerous even without Life from the Loam (which can't really be said for Seismic Assault). Something like Norn isn't much of a problem because as soon as it leaves the field.. you're in trouble.
But I don't think it's worse than Seismic Assault. At least not at the moment. On the plus side, it doesn't need lands specifically, it's cost is less restrictive, and it comes down a turn earlier (not to mention can make two or three guys on that turn). Of course, on the other hand, Norn is a problem, it needs to attack so things like Ghostly Prison aren't fun, sometimes it's a pain to have to play around Goyfs, and of course Spell Snare.
We'll see where it goes. Maybe you're right and it should be tuned back a bit. It could be better used as a strategy to fall back on if Assault has been Extracted or something. Or if your opponent has Leyline of Sanctity. I probably would benefit from having a couple Assault in case of Norn.
But in the end it's a pet deck, so.. bear with me.
Maybe there are better options, but for now NR is playable for me.
1. Are 3 Thoughtseizes really necessary? In my experience, thus far, 3 IoK, 2 Raven's Crime, and 2 Thoughtseize are more than enough to go against control. Instead, I'm thinking of going -1 thoughtseize, +1 Kitchen Finks to help with Jund/RDW. Also going to use the empty slot for another finks.
2. Why Go for the Throat over Terminate? Is there some pro-red creature that's causing the list problems? I figure that killing Wurmcoil Engine is important enough to run terminate, and that we don't have any real problems casting it over GftT. And if there is such a creature, is it so bad that a 1/1 split in sb isn't worth it?
I apologize if these questions are stupid, as I said, I am new to the archetype.
These aren't dumb questions at all; I think the answer to 1) has to do more with personal preference or what he found he wanted in playtesting; that's typically how ratios like that are made. You're free to do what you think your meta demands you do; such as cutting Thoughtseizes for more IoK's to not hemorrhage as much life in the RDW/Jund MU.
I think the answer to number 2) is basically number 2 with the added explaination of; it's easier to cast GftT on T2 when you had to lay down a forest on T1 or T2, which admittedly probably happens very little.
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I'm going to be testing l3dzppln's sideboard, with the following changes:
Empty slot - Kitchen finks
-1 Thoughtseize, -1 Nihil Spellbomb, -1 Pyroclasm, -1 Go for the Throat
+1 Kitchen finks, +1 Raven's Crime, +1 Jund Charm, +1 Terminate
As far as the changes go:
- Kitchen finks is the best anti-aggro answer there is. Jund and RDW/Burn are both too fast for this deck, but only by 1 turn on average, and not by a huge amount of life. The +2 life finks provides (often +4 against Jund) is often enough to just barely stabilize and take control of the game. It won't make the matchups amazing, but it will bring it closer to 50/50. I admit it's not the easiest thing to cast for this deck, but I just can't think of a better answer right now.
- Jund charm over spellbomb and pyroclasm - pyroclasm and spellbomb do what they do better than jund charm, however, jund charm does both, and running 1 jund charm opens up an extra sideboard slot for another answer. Considering that the environment seems to be fairly broad right now, I believe that the versatility of jund charm is worth the sacrifice in power. However, if the environment becomes more focused, I could definitely give Jund Charm the axe.
- Raven's Crime vs. Thoughtseize - This is purely a meta call. Thoughtseize is great against control and certain types of combo (like Twin combo), but only so-so (at best) against eggs and storm. Raven's crime is good against control, excellent against storm and eggs, but terrible against things like twin combo. Right now, however, I don't see many 2 or 3 card combo decks like splinter twin, but more storm like combo decks. That said, thoughtseize's usefulness vs. control can't be denied, so I'm opting to run a 3 raven's crime/2 thoughtseize split in my 75.
- Terminate vs. GftT - I'm testing as a 1/1 split, to see which one I want to see more, and then I'll probably go for 2 of one of the other.
I was originally going to run an Obstinate Baloth, but it's only good against jund, and I want a broader answer, so I opted for another finks.
Goyf can come down at practically any time without really needing anything to synergize him into a viable threat. Often he's thrown down to tidy up a crippled opponent. Even if he shrinks, growing again just seems to hapen in short order and it's only aggro decks who put on a lot of pressure who can seize the oppotunity here.
QDryad needs you to cast a flurry of spells to grow it, post haste. Of course, this deck is capable of doing just that, but both Crime and Jab are best used quite early in the game to wreck control and aggro repectively, and taking time out to cast a threat beforehand can loosen your stranglehold on a game. While it's possible to bring it down afterwards as well, you may need both a retrace spell and LftL by that stage in order to grow enough. This seems less dependable.
It seems a viable enough alternative to CCrusher though, especially if you see Celestial Purge around the place.
Hats off for looking aroung for another cheap finisher, goyf does seem a little ubiquitous.
That is brilliant. I'll be making changes to my list next time I take it for a spin.
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I've started packing a pair of Sowing Salts especially for the matchup and still can't seem to win unless I draw both Ghost Quarters and they fumble for several turns. It's so easy for them to go over the top.
Have you actually played the matchup? Because the more I test against it the more I feel like they have inevitability on their side. Sure, if you draw in to 3 IoKs and a Crime to take away their whole hand by turn three you can stop them.. but since you can't take away their pieces it's hard to stop them from assembling. And we really have -no- play against a resolved Karn, let alone an Eldrazi.
Maybe there's something I'm missing, though?