Hey all, I'm not much of a competitive player any more, but some of my friends are going to GP: PHX next weekend, and I've been trying to find a deck I like. I saw this deck, realized that I can be casting Stone Rain, and immediately decided I want to be doing that. For the past couple of weeks, I've been testing various builds of this deck on MODO, and still haven't found a configuration I'm committed to. For sure, my build is going to start with these 53 cards, which seems to be the fairly standard core:
The only seemingly odd choice is Hierarch over Arbor Elf, and my reasoning is two fold. First, I'm not concerned about getting to four mana on turn 2. Second, Exalted is super relevant.
So, that gives 7 slots to work with. I've tried a bunch of the following configurations:
0-2 Molten Rain
0-4 Tarmogoyf
0-1 Scavenging Ooze
0-4 Courser of Kruphix
0-2 Beast Within
0-1 Stormbreath Dragon
0-2 Inferno Titan
0-1 Land
There's definitely hard choice between playing big (5/6+ mana) dudes or not. I think I like having a lower curve, but that does mean I sometimes end up with a bunch of extra mana. I think that comes down to personal choice and what your goal is.
I think I do want a few 2-drops in the deck, and I think I'm just going to end up running 4 Tarmogoyf. I'm only running 8 ramp guys, so I like having something to do on turn 2 in the 1/3 of hands I don't have ramp. Goyf's been fine, if unexciting, and it definitely might be the case that Scavenging Ooze is better. I'm just not sure of a better turn 2 play.
So, to the above poster, I'd start there, and then play around with the extra slots. I'm gonna continue trying out different things, but I think I like the following the best:
d. Stormbreath and inferno titan feel like necessary "over the top" bombs that let you end games in 1-2 turns. Although tarmogoyf is an excellent magic card, I never felt like I was missing it tonight- there's a lot of speculation on whether a lower to the ground, creature heavy G/R midrange list with goyfs and hierarchs could be better than the traditional LD gameplan. I don't think this is correct primarily because we don't play black and can't control the size of goyf with all of black's discard options. Jund and abzan remain the far and away best tarmogoyf decks. Temur is probably also a better home for the goofball.
Congrats on the 3-1. In regards to Goyf/Hierarch builds, or "Noble Moon" as dubbed by the Ponza FB page, the deck typically still runs the same number of LD spells +/- 1-2 Moltens. It's true that we can't directly affect the size of Goyf via targeted discard effects, but it's rare for him to come out as anything less than a 3/4 (4/5 attacker w/ exalted trigger) and that's a solid value for 2 cmc. However, the main reason for running this build is to eliminate the chance of dead hits off of BBE; it's still susceptible to cascading into ramp, but at a lesser rate and the ramp that we do hit comes with additional utility thanks to Noble's exalted trigger(s). For example, BoP is a pretty bad BBE hit in other lists, but in Noble Moon variants it can turn into a legitimate threat and win games if the opponent can't deal with flyers and we have one or more exalted triggers in addition to a Nisaa, VoZ that can be ticked down -2.
Can you post a list of this Noble Moon deck please?
The only seemingly odd choice is Hierarch over Arbor Elf, and my reasoning is two fold. First, I'm not concerned about getting to four mana on turn 2. Second, Exalted is super relevant.
So, that gives 7 slots to work with. I've tried a bunch of the following configurations:
0-2 Molten Rain
0-4 Tarmogoyf
0-1 Scavenging Ooze
0-4 Courser of Kruphix
0-2 Beast Within
0-1 Stormbreath Dragon
0-2 Inferno Titan
0-1 Land
There's definitely hard choice between playing big (5/6+ mana) dudes or not. I think I like having a lower curve, but that does mean I sometimes end up with a bunch of extra mana. I think that comes down to personal choice and what your goal is.
I think I do want a few 2-drops in the deck, and I think I'm just going to end up running 4 Tarmogoyf. I'm only running 8 ramp guys, so I like having something to do on turn 2 in the 1/3 of hands I don't have ramp. Goyf's been fine, if unexciting, and it definitely might be the case that Scavenging Ooze is better. I'm just not sure of a better turn 2 play.
So, to the above poster, I'd start there, and then play around with the extra slots. I'm gonna continue trying out different things, but I think I like the following the best:
Arbor Elf / Utopia sprawl gives you ~13% chance to hit 4 mana on T2. It is super back backing to get down a BBE / Chandra on T2. You may want to consider this next time.
With your current deck with 4x Hierarch, it will be more of a "Noble Moon" build. So assuming if no arbor elves, I will play 4x goyf, 3x Ooze and dropping an Utopia Sprawl. I'm never a fan of Wolf Run and will run another fetch in its place. You may also want to consider running lesser Bolts. I recommend either Hazoret or Pia and Kiran Nalaar to top off at 4 CMCs. With Ooze, Tracker, Hazoret and Pnk, spending excess mana shouldn't be a problem.
d. Stormbreath and inferno titan feel like necessary "over the top" bombs that let you end games in 1-2 turns. Although tarmogoyf is an excellent magic card, I never felt like I was missing it tonight- there's a lot of speculation on whether a lower to the ground, creature heavy G/R midrange list with goyfs and hierarchs could be better than the traditional LD gameplan. I don't think this is correct primarily because we don't play black and can't control the size of goyf with all of black's discard options. Jund and abzan remain the far and away best tarmogoyf decks. Temur is probably also a better home for the goofball.
Congrats on the 3-1. In regards to Goyf/Hierarch builds, or "Noble Moon" as dubbed by the Ponza FB page, the deck typically still runs the same number of LD spells +/- 1-2 Moltens. It's true that we can't directly affect the size of Goyf via targeted discard effects, but it's rare for him to come out as anything less than a 3/4 (4/5 attacker w/ exalted trigger) and that's a solid value for 2 cmc. However, the main reason for running this build is to eliminate the chance of dead hits off of BBE; it's still susceptible to cascading into ramp, but at a lesser rate and the ramp that we do hit comes with additional utility thanks to Noble's exalted trigger(s). For example, BoP is a pretty bad BBE hit in other lists, but in Noble Moon variants it can turn into a legitimate threat and win games if the opponent can't deal with flyers and we have one or more exalted triggers in addition to a Nisaa, VoZ that can be ticked down -2.
Can you post a list of this Noble Moon deck please?
Yessir. There's also a link there to the OP's Reddit thread regarding the build.
Played 7 MTGO Friendly Leagues with this deck, won all of them (I mean 3-2 is win, cause you gain Player Points to another one + Treasure Chest). 4 times 3-2, 3 times 4-1.
Got to live the dream last night in testing, Turn 2 BBE into Blood Moon with a Rain in hand for his only basic. Always a great feeling!
Also, I've gotten my build tuned to the point that if I have a 1-drop in my opener, BBE has a 75% or better chance of hitting value vs hitting a Dork or Sprawl. Feels really good every time I cast it!
What is the point of running 2 birds of paradise in addition to 4 elf and 4 utopia sprawl? Aren't them enough together with 22 basic lands? ALso in order to maximize the efficiency of BBE cascades!
I imagine its to consistently curve 1 drop into stone rain/molten rain
What is the point of running 2 birds of paradise in addition to 4 elf and 4 utopia sprawl? Aren't them enough together with 22 basic lands? ALso in order to maximize the efficiency of BBE cascades!
The bird is more important than ever in BBE builds that max out on rains. Molten asks for 1RR. Given the number of forests we run, there will be a nonzero number of games where double red on turn 2 is beyond your reach. Access to BOP just makes yours odds a little better. I personally find 22 lands to be too many. I run 20, no wolf run.
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BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
What is the point of running 2 birds of paradise in addition to 4 elf and 4 utopia sprawl? Aren't them enough together with 22 basic lands? ALso in order to maximize the efficiency of BBE cascades!
What is the point of running 2 birds of paradise in addition to 4 elf and 4 utopia sprawl? Aren't them enough together with 22 basic lands? ALso in order to maximize the efficiency of BBE cascades!
I imagine its to consistently curve 1 drop into stone rain/molten rain
It's not worth it. It's an additional 3% or something. My experience has been to cut birds and I've never looked back. It's about the worse card you can draw in the game outside your opener. Can't even attack. Deck doesn't need birds. It's going to take some time for most folks to move away from it, but eventually, they will.
Post opener, a land will always be a better draw than a birds. 22 lands > 21 lands if you're running tracker. You will rarely find yourself with enough lands to feed him at 21. It's a huge gap. 20 lands is madness.
Some people still run KWR and that's been clear for a while that the card is awful and needs to be cut. But you know, I guess for some, old habits die hard.
If you're running Nissa, the birds and Arbor elf's in the late game could turn into something more but that's really the only advantage. I run a 1x on MTGO only because I only own 1 Chandra online.
n00b King speaks unbridled truth. KWR in opener has ruined my gameplan too many times, and I barely ever have any use for it. Birds are garbage when you're trying to get a BBE Value % above 70, and 21 lands nets me more mulligans and mana-screws than I have with Hollow One on 18 lands. 22 for life, replaced the KWR with a Treetop Village, cut Birds for threats, never been happier with this deck.
While I echo the sentiment of 0 birds I disagree with the KWR statements it has ended games way quicker for me due to the trample part alone (have literally tapped it and 2 lands for no pumps but trample).
With the new spoilers out from Dominaria, there is a new card that we will have to fight against in Damping Sphere.
This is a 2 mana artifact that has “If a land is tapped for 2 or more mana, it produces <1 wingding mana> instead of any other type and amount. Each spell a player casts costs <1 colorless> more to cast for each other spell that player has cast this turn.”
Most people aren’t even talking about it being Ponza hate only Storm and Tron currently, but this affects us 2 ways. 1st is Utopia Sprawl lands would only tap for 1 wing ding mana which hamstrings us a ton if we are on the draw. 2nd is it’s interaction with BBE where the cascade spell would cost 1 mana to cast.
The part where this is a even bigger problem is the card is colorless so it can go in anything and will be very ubiquitous due to hating on 2 decks that are pillars of the format. It is only a matter of time before they realize that it works on us too. We have sb hate in Ancient Grudge, so that helps but we may have to board in AG in almost every matchup once the set is released. Just trying to stay ahead of the game and keep y’all up to speed.
Also FYI I will post some data on Monday from my play testing with the updated list.
Just fyi, Damping Sphere should not impact Utopia Sprawl. It is a triggered ability that does not use the stack, it does not make the land itself tap for more mana.
Just fyi, Damping Sphere should not impact Utopia Sprawl. It is a triggered ability that does not use the stack, it does not make the land itself tap for more mana.
Correct
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Modern Decks
------------ URW Jeskai Control GUWRB Amulet Titan GR Ponza
Just fyi, Damping Sphere should not impact Utopia Sprawl. It is a triggered ability that does not use the stack, it does not make the land itself tap for more mana.
Man I am completely wrong and apologize for any confusion.
Round 1 vs. GB Tron (W 2-0). Easy matchup. Kill his lands, cast big stuff. I did get to ultimate Chandra in game 2 and cast dinky spells to kill him from 16 in one turn.
Round 2 vs. Jund (W 2-1). Had a turn 2 or 3 Blood Moon in each game. Lost game 2 to an early Tarmogoyf and he kept bolting my dudes when I tried to set up a double block. It was cool winning game 1 when he had 7 uncastable spells in hand tho.
Round 3 vs. Humans (L 1-2). Close matchup. Meddling Mage is really good. Won him games 1 and 3. He named Anger of the Gods in game 3 a turn before I could cast it, essentially deciding the game. I did get him in a Blood Moon and Pithing Needle lock in game 2, which was really fun.
Round 4 vs. Burn (W 2-1). I sideboarded out all of my rains and became GR good creatures with Blood Moon. Blood Moon is good because it shuts off at least 10 cards post in his deck Lightning Helix, Boros Charm, Path to Exile, Destructive Revelry. Won game one because of an early Ruric Thar. Game 2 was really close. He won through two Kitchen Finks, one Scavenging Ooze, and one Courser of Kruphix. Game 3, I had a massive board of big dudes and lifegain creatures and still 14 life.
I really liked how this deck ran and felt. Tireless Tracker is a superstar along with all of the other utility creatures. I'd honestly rather play the utility guys over the bigger bodied Tarmogoyf any day. Cascading into LD or good creatures feels great. I look forward to tweaking and perfecting this deck.
Ponza #1 seed going into the top 8 of SCG Dallas! Boom Baby!!!! Three decks made day 2 as well. That's probably a decent chunk of the day 1 Ponza players. We should start seeing bigger numbers the more it's played.
Ponza #1 seed going into the top 8 of SCG Dallas! Boom Baby!!!! Three decks made day 2 as well. That's probably a decent chunk of the day 1 Ponza players. We should start seeing bigger numbers the more it's played.
Update is Ponza won against some of it’s worst matchups in Infect and Storm.
7 Forest
1 Kessig Wolf Run
2 Mountain
3 Stomping Ground
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tireless Tracker
2 Molten Rain
4 Stone Rain
4 Utopia Sprawl
2 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
4 Lightning Bolt
The only seemingly odd choice is Hierarch over Arbor Elf, and my reasoning is two fold. First, I'm not concerned about getting to four mana on turn 2. Second, Exalted is super relevant.
So, that gives 7 slots to work with. I've tried a bunch of the following configurations:
0-2 Molten Rain
0-4 Tarmogoyf
0-1 Scavenging Ooze
0-4 Courser of Kruphix
0-2 Beast Within
0-1 Stormbreath Dragon
0-2 Inferno Titan
0-1 Land
There's definitely hard choice between playing big (5/6+ mana) dudes or not. I think I like having a lower curve, but that does mean I sometimes end up with a bunch of extra mana. I think that comes down to personal choice and what your goal is.
I think I do want a few 2-drops in the deck, and I think I'm just going to end up running 4 Tarmogoyf. I'm only running 8 ramp guys, so I like having something to do on turn 2 in the 1/3 of hands I don't have ramp. Goyf's been fine, if unexciting, and it definitely might be the case that Scavenging Ooze is better. I'm just not sure of a better turn 2 play.
So, to the above poster, I'd start there, and then play around with the extra slots. I'm gonna continue trying out different things, but I think I like the following the best:
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Stormbreath Dragon
1 Courser of Kruphix
Can you post a list of this Noble Moon deck please?
UG Infect
Modern
UG Infect
GW Infect
EDH
WB Teysa, Orzhov Scion
B Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon
Arbor Elf / Utopia sprawl gives you ~13% chance to hit 4 mana on T2. It is super back backing to get down a BBE / Chandra on T2. You may want to consider this next time.
With your current deck with 4x Hierarch, it will be more of a "Noble Moon" build. So assuming if no arbor elves, I will play 4x goyf, 3x Ooze and dropping an Utopia Sprawl. I'm never a fan of Wolf Run and will run another fetch in its place. You may also want to consider running lesser Bolts. I recommend either Hazoret or Pia and Kiran Nalaar to top off at 4 CMCs. With Ooze, Tracker, Hazoret and Pnk, spending excess mana shouldn't be a problem.
7 Forest
2 Mountain
3 Stomping Ground
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tireless Tracker
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Scavenging Ooze
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Hazoret the Fervent
1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
2 Molten Rain
4 Stone Rain
Enchantment (7)
4 Blood Moon
3 Utopia Sprawl
Planeswalker (2)
2 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
Instant (2)
2 Lightning Bolt
Yessir. There's also a link there to the OP's Reddit thread regarding the build.
Link to Discord server where anybody from MTGS can keep up with thread topics while everything is being sorted out with the new site.
9 Forest
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Mountain
3 Stomping Ground
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
Creatures (18)
4 Arbor Elf
2 Birds of Paradise
4 Bloodbraid Elf
2 Inferno Titan
3 Kitchen Finks
1 Stormbreath Dragon
2 Tireless Tracker
3 Lightning Bolt
Sorceries (7)
2 Molten Rain
1 Primal Command
4 Stone Rain
Enchantments (8)
4 Blood Moon
4 Utopia Sprawl
Planeswalkers (2)
2 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
1 Abrade
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Shatterstorm
3 Anger of the Gods
2 Choke
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Thragtusk
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Tireless Tracker
Played 7 MTGO Friendly Leagues with this deck, won all of them (I mean 3-2 is win, cause you gain Player Points to another one + Treasure Chest). 4 times 3-2, 3 times 4-1.
At some point I replaced Cages in side to Relics.
Here are match statistics:
My YouTube MTG Channel
Temur Tooth and Nail (feat. Kiora, Master of the Depths) deck topic and reddit thread.
Also, I've gotten my build tuned to the point that if I have a 1-drop in my opener, BBE has a 75% or better chance of hitting value vs hitting a Dork or Sprawl. Feels really good every time I cast it!
I imagine its to consistently curve 1 drop into stone rain/molten rain
The bird is more important than ever in BBE builds that max out on rains. Molten asks for 1RR. Given the number of forests we run, there will be a nonzero number of games where double red on turn 2 is beyond your reach. Access to BOP just makes yours odds a little better. I personally find 22 lands to be too many. I run 20, no wolf run.
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
It's not worth it. It's an additional 3% or something. My experience has been to cut birds and I've never looked back. It's about the worse card you can draw in the game outside your opener. Can't even attack. Deck doesn't need birds. It's going to take some time for most folks to move away from it, but eventually, they will.
Post opener, a land will always be a better draw than a birds. 22 lands > 21 lands if you're running tracker. You will rarely find yourself with enough lands to feed him at 21. It's a huge gap. 20 lands is madness.
Some people still run KWR and that's been clear for a while that the card is awful and needs to be cut. But you know, I guess for some, old habits die hard.
GWUBAtraxa and Her Superfriends
WUB Oloro, the Life Drain Train
URG Animar, Soul of Elements
WBR Kaalia of the Vast
BWTeysa Karlov, Scion of Orzhov
R Purphoros, Goblins of Pain ($100 Budget Challenge)
U Talrand, Fun Police (Needs updating)
With the new spoilers out from Dominaria, there is a new card that we will have to fight against in Damping Sphere.
This is a 2 mana artifact that has “If a land is tapped for 2 or more mana, it produces <1 wingding mana> instead of any other type and amount. Each spell a player casts costs <1 colorless> more to cast for each other spell that player has cast this turn.”
Most people aren’t even talking about it being Ponza hate only Storm and Tron currently, but this affects us 2 ways. 1st is Utopia Sprawl lands would only tap for 1 wing ding mana which hamstrings us a ton if we are on the draw. 2nd is it’s interaction with BBE where the cascade spell would cost 1 mana to cast.
The part where this is a even bigger problem is the card is colorless so it can go in anything and will be very ubiquitous due to hating on 2 decks that are pillars of the format. It is only a matter of time before they realize that it works on us too. We have sb hate in Ancient Grudge, so that helps but we may have to board in AG in almost every matchup once the set is released. Just trying to stay ahead of the game and keep y’all up to speed.
Also FYI I will post some data on Monday from my play testing with the updated list.
Correct
------------
URW Jeskai Control
GUWRB Amulet Titan
GR Ponza
Man I am completely wrong and apologize for any confusion.
4x Arbor Elf
1x Birds of Paradise
4x Bloodbraid Elf
2x Courser of Kruphix
2x Inferno Titan
1x Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
3x Stormbreath Dragon
3x Tireless Tracker
Enchantments
4x Blood Moon
4x Utopia Sprawl
4x Molten Rain
4x Stone Rain
Planeswalkers
2x Chandra, Torch of Defiance
Lands
7x Forest
1x Mountain
1x Misty Rainforest
1x Verdant Catacombs
3x Windswept Heath
4x Wooded Foothills
1x Kessig Wolf Run
4x Stomping Ground
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Pithing Needle
3x Kitchen Finks
2x Scavenging Ooze
1x Thrun, the Last Troll
2x Ancient Grudge
2x Beast Within
2x Anger of the Gods
1x Shatterstorm
20-ish player FNM.
Round 1 vs. GB Tron (W 2-0). Easy matchup. Kill his lands, cast big stuff. I did get to ultimate Chandra in game 2 and cast dinky spells to kill him from 16 in one turn.
Round 2 vs. Jund (W 2-1). Had a turn 2 or 3 Blood Moon in each game. Lost game 2 to an early Tarmogoyf and he kept bolting my dudes when I tried to set up a double block. It was cool winning game 1 when he had 7 uncastable spells in hand tho.
Round 3 vs. Humans (L 1-2). Close matchup. Meddling Mage is really good. Won him games 1 and 3. He named Anger of the Gods in game 3 a turn before I could cast it, essentially deciding the game. I did get him in a Blood Moon and Pithing Needle lock in game 2, which was really fun.
Round 4 vs. Burn (W 2-1). I sideboarded out all of my rains and became GR good creatures with Blood Moon. Blood Moon is good because it shuts off at least 10 cards post in his deck Lightning Helix, Boros Charm, Path to Exile, Destructive Revelry. Won game one because of an early Ruric Thar. Game 2 was really close. He won through two Kitchen Finks, one Scavenging Ooze, and one Courser of Kruphix. Game 3, I had a massive board of big dudes and lifegain creatures and still 14 life.
I really liked how this deck ran and felt. Tireless Tracker is a superstar along with all of the other utility creatures. I'd honestly rather play the utility guys over the bigger bodied Tarmogoyf any day. Cascading into LD or good creatures feels great. I look forward to tweaking and perfecting this deck.
UG Infect
Modern
UG Infect
GW Infect
EDH
WB Teysa, Orzhov Scion
B Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon
UG Infect
Modern
UG Infect
GW Infect
EDH
WB Teysa, Orzhov Scion
B Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon
Tempo
Modern
Eldrazi and Staxes
Whir Prison
Legacy
5c Humans
DnT
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
Update is Ponza won against some of it’s worst matchups in Infect and Storm.
UG Infect
Modern
UG Infect
GW Infect
EDH
WB Teysa, Orzhov Scion
B Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon