MTG Salvation

Quote from kylar

A land denial + land destruction deck, Basically u ramp the mana up fast with some cheap mana dorks and get Blood Moon up early to secure a win and proceed on with land destruction using Sundering Titan or Sylvan Primordial with Conjurer's Closet by constantly returning those 2 to the battlefield.

Did some gold fishing, ya could probably get blood moon out on turn 3 to lock it the board down, but it maybe abit slow for modern.

Land DeniedMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards
Creature (17) 4x Elvish Archdruid 4x Elvish Mystic 4x Llanowar Elves 2x Sundering Titan 3x Sylvan Primordial	Sorcery (12) 4x Farseek 3x Frenzied Tilling 4x Stone Rain Instant (6) 4x Lightning Bolt 2x Searing Spear	Land (20) 10x Forest 6x Mountain 4x Rootbound Crag Enchantment (3) 4x Blood Moon Artifact (2) 2x Conjurer's Closet

If im to be honest, decks like these tend to play on my nerves when i see them. Perhaps im too critical in my thinking that when people post decks looking for feedback, they should at least be attempting to be competitive or given it some thought/testing first.

What i see is a deck with no real plan for the early game, hoping their opponents do nothing for several turns. A deck that requires resolving of a specific card on turn ~3, with nothing to help get it or protect it. That card hurting this deck as much as any opponents, since if the dorks get taken out, the majority of the deck is unplayable. A later combo revolving around a 2-of that is still shaky, unprotected, and has no way to assemble the pieces. And in the unlikely event it works, its a minor payoff with as much mana/effort/luck as you could have long since secured a win with other combos. And then after that, there is a distinct lack of win condition. Even without the fact that your closet is significantly delaying the attacks of the only threats you have.

The mana base is poorly thought out. The interactivity and responsiveness is minimal. And the recovery from disruptions is non-existent.

Sorry if that was overly harsh. But ive seen far too many RG LD 'decks' thrown up with no thought to them or semblence of strategy. And barely able to take control of goldfish matches until long after most legitimate games are finished. And it bothers me that threads get sidetracked from fruitful discussions by them.

Quote from NessOnett

If im to be honest, decks like these tend to play on my nerves when i see them. Perhaps im too critical in my thinking that when people post decks looking for feedback, they should at least be attempting to be competitive or given it some thought/testing first.

I agree. In particular I question the addition of Blood Moon. I am not sure what their meta is like, but I can tell you that on MTGO lately I have found that most decks I play could care less if you turned their non-basics into Mountains. Lots of red in decks and people who plan for non-basic land hate.

Updated the opening post with more stuff. Hope it looks better now.

@kylar: NessOnett is right, that deck has flaws... too many. We're trying to build something competitive here.

@NessOnett: Your Ponza deck looks good. How has the Phoenix and Koth been performing? They don't seem that necessary and helping the game plan. Was it always worth it to have the 4 Spirit Guides and Crack the Earth? I mean, how often have you gotten those 2 in your starting hand AND playing second (for maximum timewalk)? However, the Guides would help with getting an early Trinisphere too so that's good. Will give this a try once I can figure out what to change for it. Looks good.

Been getting some testing done with this list below.



Been trying a different approach, dropping blue altogether and trying to abuse Smallpox. Wonderful card, coupled with some discard. Most recent results was from an FNM, with a 2-1 score.

Deck simply plays to clear some lands and beatdown once you're in control with some tokens.


Recent testing results shows some promises so I will be testing this further, tweaking some cards here and there. Have found that Inquisiton of Kozilek might be a better choice or even Thoughtseize over Blackmail to scan their hand and know what lands to remove but Blackmail has managed to keep them off lands at some point as well. Maybe a mix. Blackmail is a way better topdeck.

Pretty unlucky of you to not have any removal to deal with that Dark Confidant when you're running 12 cards main that could have taken him out!

I really like your deck. Have you thought about running Leyline of Sanctity in the board?

Also... how many cards do you find you typically have in hand throughout the game? Would something like Ensnaring Bridge be worthwhile to run?

I don't remember exactly what happened, but he had 2 Confidants on board at one time and that totally got me outplayed. The current deck build lacks card draw/advantage. I've been trying a single Mikokoro, Center of the Sea for draw but most times I hate seeing it in my opening hand. Colours are tight.

I haven't been too sure about Leyline of Sanctity since I haven't played against burn. But with Helix, Ajani, removals and discards, I would think that burn should be a decent match up. Discard hurts, but it's not worth the slot to play 4. For example, I'd rather let them discard a smallpox than have a Leyline (or draw into one) to stop it.

Usually my hand would be empty by turn 5 or 6? Unless I have a ton of lands and nothing to play or a couple of Planeswalkers. I've thought about Ensnaring Bridge a lot but I feel that it will slow down my own clock to finish off the opponent before he recovers from the LD. Which is also why I play burns over Wraths main. I opted to play Elspeth, Knight-Errant over it to quicken the clock when I have control. Can't have both Elspeth and Bridge in the same deck.

Leyline of Sanctity does a lot more than shut down burn! It removes discard, it removes many of the Planeswalker's abilities, it turns off lifeloss from Deathrite Shaman... I've found it's great against a lot of cards that people run that try to disrupt your gameplan. It turns off both variations of Angel's Grace (Ad Nauseam and Rite of Consumption). UR Delver, Red Affinity hurts less.... I've just really liked it in quite a few match ups but can understand the desire to run more threats than protection.

I like the reasoning on Ensnaring Bridge though. Makes perfect sense.

Im planning a lot more detailed run through of things when i have a bit more time. But i can address a few things quickly.

Koth/phoenix. Long story short, i really want a second red planeswalker. And im really hoping we get a new one soon that isnt just another chandra. Koth is in there because hes the best available, but im hoping to find a replacement. The phoenix would be doing a lot better if i had a better second planeswalker to activate her. At the moment shes on the ropes too because of the weakness of Koth.

Crack and SSG are probably my 2 favorite cards in the deck. Because they do so much work in the early game(where the archetype is weakest), and because so few others even consider them. Keep in mind that crack can work with flagstones. And accelerating any LD with ssg is usuallly worth it. Crack unfortunately has to be sided against aggro decks. Fortunately that is what helix was designed for, so theres good sub options. My current thought is to try and find a way perhaps to work in a few lootings. Since not only is it a great card in its own right, but it gives me a use for them later on when playing them stops being worthwhile.

Well I'm back from vacation, and finally have a keyboard and some free time to give a more detailed explanation of my deck. Let me preface this by saying a I moved recently, and lost my playgroup(I don't play online). So at this point my experience will all be past, and I won't be able to test out any changes personally for a bit.

So for an overview of why I did my deck this way. I found that most people's take on LD was to fore go the early game and hope not to lose too quickly while they build up. But I'm an aggro player, and I can't stand that idea. So I wanted to put together the most aggressive form of LD that I could. This meant taking a lot of risks, having some suicidal tendencies, and going all-in with no real back-up plan.

I started with a mono red base because...mono black didn't have enough destruction, and cards like smallpox are too black heavy to be split. And then when I got to the mutual destruction, I realized flagstones had to make an appearence to keep me ahead. So I expanded it to include some limited white...which ended up mostly in the sideboard, because white has the best sideboard options. But mostly I'm "splashing white for plains." Dabbled in blue for a bit, but ultimately cut it because the hit to the manabase(especially with mutual destruction) wasn't worth it.

So as a quick refresher, here's the deck.



And I guess I'll just...go in an order I like.


Simian Spirit Guide - As I said before, one of my favorite cards in the deck. And I honestly wouldn't consider building the deck without it. It personifies the deck so well. A red card that commits, sacrifices, and hurts...all for the sake of getting aggro as possible. Without it, there's not enough consistency to blow up a land on turn 1/2 that the archetype really needs to survive in a competitive environment. While I'd prefer a more lax environment, like one that fostered the original Ponza, and allowed it to play fire diamonds/etc...you gotta be faster these days to keep up.

Crack the Earth - The most suspect card on the list. Honestly only useful in the first 2 turns. It's full of holes. It's a dead card in the lategame. It's a bust against a number of decks. And it's sided out VERY often. But I still stand by it to the last. Because it's such a blowout in game one in the early game, It's the only 1-cmc land destruction that I know of. It circumvents fetches because it's a sacrifice. It has no downside if accompanied by a flagstones, or if played on turn1 with an SSG. And though people can easily plan for it and play around it, they will never expect it game1. Because realistically, have you ever seen it played?

Boom (Boom/Bust) - It's all about the boom. I don't think this card needs much explaining. As long as you have flagstones and enough fetches, every deck should be running these.

Molten Rain, Stone Rain - Filler Land Destruction. They cost 3, they blow up a land. 4 cost are too slow, don't work, as cool as some of them are(RIP Avalanche Riders). Prefer Molten of the two, as heavy red I rarely have mana issues.

Lightning Bolt - Best card in format. Period. If your deck has red, play 4 of them. If your deck doesn't have red, add red, then play 4 of them.

Trinisphere - At a certain point I realized, keeping people at 0 land wasn't feasible. So the only way to take advantage of an opponent hemorrhaging mana is either with counters or taxes. And trinisphere is the best catchall tax we have. Originally I was worried that this might hurt me more than my opponents given how many low cost cards I had. But in testing, this wasn't the case. A lot of the low cost things didn't matter later on, like Crack, and those that did were worth paying extra for. Since resolving a sphere basically shuts out your opponent completely assuming things are reasonable.

Chandra, the Firebrand - After testing out several win conditions, I realized that when things go well, the game has a tendency to stall. And the best way to take advantage of a stall is with walkers. This Chandra is a beast. She can copy rains which are obnoxious. She has a very solid +1 that can be used whenever to effect. And the big key, she costs 4. I tried a lot of finishers, and I had trouble getting to 5 consistently, even with stalled games. Because you will likely mutually destroy some land at some point, setting yourself back as well. And as a bonus, she obviously triggers her pet bird, but more on that later.

Chandra's Phoenix - And by later, I mean now. So here's the primary 'finisher' of the deck. It's a bird. It's a 2/2 flying haste for 3, which is pretty decent at its core. Flying is good evasion as they may have gotten something out at some point, but it's rarely big, threatening, or defensible. But it could easily be a grounded wall. This will be posing a problem for your other direct threats as well, so having a flier is nice. And haste is always good, as a finisher, as a red deck, as aggro. And without haste the recursion is less threatening as it just takes too long. But obviously the key is the recursion. Being the only real 'creature' in the deck it is going to lightning rod all the would-be hate left in your opponent's hand. And no matter how threatening your beast is, if it gets hit by a terror(yes, I know, nobody actually uses terror anymore, it's just a saying), it doesn't matter. So you want something that can be a persistent threat. It ends up being a really strong card for what the deck needs, but might need a bit more support for the recursion. But for the record, There's potentially 11 triggers MB and another 7 SB, which is reasonable.

Koth of the Hammer - Ugh. This guy. I can honestly say I'm not the biggest fan. I wanted another planeswalker since Chandra was doing the planeswalker theory justice. But I didn't want another Chandra because legends. But all the white walkers suck in 'creatureless' decks. RW Ajani looks good until you realize the +1 doesn't do anything if you can keep people from tapping in the first place(the aim of the deck). And Tibalt is...****. So Koth is the best option left. He's not terrible, but there's a limited number of mountains in the deck given the whitesplash. So he's not got the best synergy with the deck.

The lands are pretty straight forward. Flagstones and fetches for mutual destruction. Ghitus as a killer(don't expect your opponents to have a strong defensive field). Mostly red, some white.

And for the sideboard, this is all really straightforward.

Magus of the Moon - Either this or Blood Moon should be in the sideboard of most red decks, and especially fitting with one that cripples opponents mana. I went with the Magus after several games of blood moon dragging on forever with nothing happening because suddenly my Ghitus were mountains and couldn't go for the throat and there was no pressure on my opponents. So while 2 damage isn't a lot, and he's vulnerable to removal...the whole point of siding them in is when they are going to crush your opponents hand on entry. And thus removal is unlikely.

Volcanic Fallout - Against more aggro decks you will need some board clear. This doubles as a Phoenix trigger. Half the time trinisphere will be out, so the extra cost over pyroclasm matters less. And getting countered sucks(merfolks, faeries, etc). Having a hedge against low-cost counters so you don't have to think twice about playing it is worth the 3 cost.

Lightning Helix - As a pseudo-control deck, you are fighting to stabilize before you die(Which is weird to say, as I've been preaching how much you need to be aggressive, but it makes sense when you think about it). So having a duo removal as well as heal is great. There's access to white, so may as well use it. One of the best cards ever printed, fits perfectly with the deck, no reason not to use it. Bring it in whenever removal is needed, because removal goes hand in hand with needing life.

Mana Tithe - In the Trinisphere paragraph, I said taxes and counters. And this one is just too juicy to pass up. Your opponents are low on land. They can't afford to pay 1. That's way too high a cost. I'd consider this easily mainboardable if you could make room for it. There's never a time I don't like seeing it. People like playing cards in almost every deck. This deck was part blue for a little while, and spike was the most missed card when I cut the color. Until I remembered planeshifted was the best idea ever. Don't underestimate it.


As an aside:

Faithless Looting - I feel like this would be a valuable addition to the deck if there was room for it. It does so much work in decks that don't have dead cards in the lategame. But in this one there would be the added benefit of making use of those Cracks and such.


Um...yeah, I think that's everything. Please let me know if I missed something. Or ask any questions you may have. I've played this deck hundreds if not thousands of times in various incarnations at various venues and against tons of decks. So it is very thoroughly tested, even if not the most optimized. This also means I've tried out hundreds of different cards that I've found to flat out suck with it, so if I don't respond about a suggestion it's probably because I've tried it and found it lacking. But I appreciate any feedback none the less.

Quote from JPoJohnson

Leyline of Sanctity does a lot more than shut down burn! It removes discard, it removes many of the Planeswalker's abilities, it turns off lifeloss from Deathrite Shaman... I've found it's great against a lot of cards that people run that try to disrupt your gameplan. It turns off both variations of Angel's Grace (Ad Nauseam and Rite of Consumption). UR Delver, Red Affinity hurts less.... I've just really liked it in quite a few match ups but can understand the desire to run more threats than protection.

I like the reasoning on Ensnaring Bridge though. Makes perfect sense.

It does nothing to stop DRS's lifeloss ability. It does not require a target.

Dang, I spent a lot of time on that last post. Why is this thread so dead? /sad

As for Ponos:
Never like the idea of Tec Edge. If you're letting them get to 4 lands in a 'land destruction' deck, then you're probably already boned.

Blizzard Herder, when it does what you want, is good(not great, just good). But it's often not going to be doing what you want it to. Can't always find the board clear for it, sometimes it gets pathed, and even the 1 extra turn it takes before it affects the board is putting you behind as is. Far too unreliable imo. If was an ETB effect, then yeah, all day long. But it's not.

I've wasted more than my fair share of time writing up big posts nobody seems to care about, in more than one thread here or elsewhere. :[ I read it !!

I'm not sure I have much else to contribute other than I don't understand why your fetches are split the way they are (why not 4 Arid Mesa?) and you could stand to have a basic Plains in case of Path / GQ / need to fetch without Shocking yourself. It's somewhat inspiring for me after my failed attempt at a UGx land denial deck centered around Annex and similar cards.

Quote from Mr.E

I've wasted more than my fair share of time writing up big posts nobody seems to care about, in more than one thread here or elsewhere. :[ I read it !!

I'm not sure I have much else to contribute other than I don't understand why your fetches are split the way they are (why not 4 Arid Mesa?) and you could stand to have a basic Plains in case of Path / GQ / need to fetch without Shocking yourself. It's somewhat inspiring for me after my failed attempt at a UGx land denial deck centered around Annex and similar cards.

They are split that way because I have a playset of Tarns, and not of Arid Mesas XD.

As for the singleton plains, I've considered it, but with nearly all of the deck requiring heavy red I almost never want a plains. And it would up the likelihood of having 2 white-only lands with a red hand which would be terrible.

Hi everyone, I had this wacky idea to try and include a LD package into a Jund Shell. The main goal of Jund is to gain incremental advantage by disrupting a deck's synergy. Mana denial fits extremely well into this goal. I would like to share a rough draft with all of you, I would like to make some changes already based on the previous discussions.



A lot of current lists for Jund play white for card like Ajani and Lingering Souls. I would like to hear your thoughts on if it is possible to add the Flagstones of Trokair & Boom // Bust Package to a build similar to this.
With the cards that have been spoiled from Theros, I feel the game is going to be making a shift into a more powerful lane. This will of course trickle down to other formats. Strategies like land destruction are fundamentally strong and proactive. I hope we can develop a teir 1 deck, modern is a hugely untested format.

A lot of Jund decks used to run boom//bust for this reason(and the free cascade off BBE). I always thought someone should take it a little further.

The problem is that Land Destruction is often an all-or-nothing strategy. Since your basically sacrificing your turn3 play to set your opponent back a turn. If you can keep this up for a few turns, it's amazing. Eventually you run your opponents dry of land drops, while making your own. Leaving them stuck at 2-3, while you're double that. But as a single play, it's risky. You've given up 'a'(key) turn to basically take away your opponent's 'best' (latest) turn. Might go well, might go terrible. Need to be wary of if you can afford to 'waste' a turn where you don't play a threat or remove one of theirs. And if you find yourself in a situation where you can't afford to lose that third turn play, you have 'dead' cards in your hand that you can't afford to play. Which could be problematic, thinning out the 'goodstuff' density.

But if you do throw in the Boom//Bust, I'd up the fetch count.

Quote from NessOnett

A lot of Jund decks used to run boom//bust for this reason(and the free cascade off BBE). I always thought someone should take it a little further.

The problem is that Land Destruction is often an all-or-nothing strategy. Since your basically sacrificing your turn3 play to set your opponent back a turn. If you can keep this up for a few turns, it's amazing. Eventually you run your opponents dry of land drops, while making your own. Leaving them stuck at 2-3, while you're double that. But as a single play, it's risky. You've given up 'a'(key) turn to basically take away your opponent's 'best' (latest) turn. Might go well, might go terrible. Need to be wary of if you can afford to 'waste' a turn where you don't play a threat or remove one of theirs. And if you find yourself in a situation where you can't afford to lose that third turn play, you have 'dead' cards in your hand that you can't afford to play. Which could be problematic, thinning out the 'goodstuff' density.

But if you do throw in the Boom//Bust, I'd up the fetch count.

Early on in Modern I tried a Boom // Bust denial deck with Hokori, Dust Drinker using the Borderposts to gain advantage. It was decidedly casual, as it turned out.

That said, I think that Boom // Bust, when skillfully played, is close to the best LD available in Modern.

has anyone mentioned to update the available LD spells to include Rain of Tears

when I looked threw I noticed it was excluded really didn't want to scan entire thread to see if its been mentioned so if this a repeat my bad.

Quote from bizzycola

has anyone mentioned to update the available LD spells to include Rain of Tears

when I looked threw I noticed it was excluded really didn't want to scan entire thread to see if its been mentioned so if this a repeat my bad.

It's been mentioned. No idea why it isn't in the primer. I said myself I wanted to run it alongside smallpox but I couldn't get the perfect 3-color manabase.

I really want to take another crack at it though. Smallpox is sooooooo strong in this format.

I want this deck to work, I love LD. I don't have too much to add, and I would probably play something a little similar to what you posted NessOnett, but have you considered Ghostly Prison? It seems like it would perfectly counter a lot of your troubled matchups, as traditionally an early couple of creatures (or god forbid, a Garruk of some sort, or an elspeth, etc) blow out LD decks. Its also basically an auto-win against tokens, goblins, kiki-exarch (kind of), and a few others. Has it been tested? At least in SB? It just slows down pretty much the whole format so much that you have time to go for lethal.

Quote from Kirlia

I want this deck to work, I love LD. I don't have too much to add, and I would probably play something a little similar to what you posted NessOnett, but have you considered Ghostly Prison? It seems like it would perfectly counter a lot of your troubled matchups, as traditionally an early couple of creatures (or god forbid, a Garruk of some sort, or an elspeth, etc) blow out LD decks. Its also basically an auto-win against tokens, goblins, kiki-exarch (kind of), and a few others. Has it been tested? At least in SB? It just slows down pretty much the whole format so much that you have time to go for lethal.

I've tested it. I've liked it. Just didn't need it much in the meta I was against. Definitely not a bad choice if it fits though.

Will add Rain of Tears when I update again. I forgot to add it. I haven't updated it with the new suggestions and all. I've seen it being mentioned. Will need to update it again soon with more suggestions and lists.

NessOnett: I like the direction your deck is going, with an all-in LD plan. I'm sure we can improve on it than it is currently so good luck with your testing and all. I haven't had much luck with the all-in approach but glad you're able to do well.

And yeah, Smallpox is really great in the format. Especially if you can take advantage of it. Been trying to do so. I haven't had great results with my current list of semi-LD in the past weeks though. Lots of 1-2 finishes and even a 0-3.

Most matchups are pretty decent. Pretty much against every deck I played, I manage to take control but couldn't finish up the game before they stabilised and started playing more lands.

EDIT:



Inquisition of Kozilek has been way better than Blackmail. Though it could get lands sometimes, most times there are other relevant things to remove. And Inquisiton reveals the whole hand rather than just 3 cards.

Games only go "well" when you have some LD in your starting hand. Especially Smallpox. Without it, most times I won't be able to slow them down enough to take over with the walkers. And at some point, it will be a really long grind till I manage to draw Blood Baron or Batterskull. In some games, by the time that happens, they would have had enough time to recover from all the LD. Might have to take this in another direction as Planeswalkers seem too slow. Many decks can effectively recover after some LD.

Young Pyromancer might just be the card we need. Getting one to stick will mean that each LD spell would at least net you a creature. I will have to look into this.