Okay, but are we both looking at the list that inspired this discussion? With only 6 counters, there isn't always reason to keep mana up on your opponents turn (unless you want to represent counters). In fact, there's only a 10% chance that you will even see a counter in the first 10 cards you look at. When you consider the 6 maindeck discard spells (plus Liliana), there's even less reason to hold up mana.
More to the point, we're not looking at a tempo deck here. The specific list that contextualizes this discussion is a combo deck with alternate wincons in the form of Lingering Souls and Creeping Tar Pit. Outside of the combo, there is not a singular threat that you need to protect with counters (as is the case with other tempo decks, like Delver). Instead you have some low-impact threats that get nasty with Sword of the Meek, or you just combo out and force your opponent to both Wrath AND deal with Thopter Foundry.
In this context, it may be more important to draw cards (to assemble the combo or out-value your opponent after high-impact discard spells) than it is to hold up mana for an instant-speed Divination or Mind Rot.
Furthermore, the life loss from Painful Truths is both 1) modular (in the sense that you have control over how much life to pay and cards to draw) and 2) not that important, since you're likely to win via combo.
The one thing that Esper Charm has over Painful Truths in this particular build is the interaction with Jace. Draw 2 + make you discard 2 (or "hey, buddy. discard 4") can just win games.
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Playing with proxied cards at sanctioned events is good, actually.
Okay, but are we both looking at the list that inspired this discussion? With only 6 counters, there isn't always reason to keep mana up on your opponents turn (unless you want to represent counters). In fact, there's only a 10% chance that you will even see a counter in the first 10 cards you look at. When you consider the 6 maindeck discard spells (plus Liliana), there's even less reason to hold up mana.
More to the point, we're not looking at a tempo deck here. The specific list that contextualizes this discussion is a combo deck with alternate wincons in the form of Lingering Souls and Creeping Tar Pit. Outside of the combo, there is not a singular threat that you need to protect with counters (as is the case with other tempo decks, like Delver). Instead you have some low-impact threats that get nasty with Sword of the Meek, or you just combo out and force your opponent to both Wrath AND deal with Thopter Foundry.
In this context, it may be more important to draw cards (to assemble the combo or out-value your opponent after high-impact discard spells) than it is to hold up mana for an instant-speed Divination or Mind Rot.
Furthermore, the life loss from Painful Truths is both 1) modular (in the sense that you have control over how much life to pay and cards to draw) and 2) not that important, since you're likely to win via combo.
The one thing that Esper Charm has over Painful Truths in this particular build is the interaction with Jace. Draw 2 + make you discard 2 (or "hey, buddy. discard 4") can just win games.
I'm not playing thopter sword and I'm playing more than 6 maindeck counters. Also esper charm kills stony silence which is pretty important for your deck I'd wager.
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I'm not playing thopter sword and I'm playing more than 6 maindeck counters. Also esper charm kills stony silence which is pretty important for your deck I'd wager.
This is the reason I didn't reply to you. You're criticizing a card (and giving it a bad value) from a deck you are not even playing. That isn't constructive at all.
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I'm not playing thopter sword and I'm playing more than 6 maindeck counters. Also esper charm kills stony silence which is pretty important for your deck I'd wager.
This is the reason I didn't reply to you. You're criticizing a card (and giving it a bad value) from a deck you are not even playing. That isn't constructive at all.
What's not constructive about it? Painful truths is a sorcery speed card that makes me take 3 damage to get three cards and I have to tap out to do that. In the current metagame, we have tons of aggro decks that are coming back because the meta is unknown. Why would I want to cast painful truths and help them when I can play esper charm which doesn't do any damage to me? Also if you are playing a thopter list, thirst for knowledge does a better impression that painful truths does for your deck. I haven't heard a convincing argument to use painful truths in this deck. (painful truths is great in jund/grixis because they don't have this many options for card draw that we do) I have critiqued the card well and I have played with the card in my esper mentor list and I ran into all of the issues that I described.
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What's not constructive about it? Painful truths is a sorcery speed card that makes me take 3 damage to get three cards and I have to tap out to do that. In the current metagame, we have tons of aggro decks that are coming back because the meta is unknown. Why would I want to cast painful truths and help them when I can play esper charm which doesn't do any damage to me? Also if you are playing a thopter list, thirst for knowledge does a better impression that painful truths does for your deck. I haven't heard a convincing argument to use painful truths in this deck. (painful truths is great in jund/grixis because they don't have this many options for card draw that we do) I have critiqued the card well and I have played with the card in my esper mentor list and I ran into all of the issues that I described.
Let me put it this way: You played the card in a different deck that happens to be in the same colors.
Do you think that what test bad for Grixis control is also bad for Grixis Delver? How about Naya Zoo and Naya burn? Junk Midrange and Junk Little Kid? Jund Midrange and Jund Goblins?
The fact that 2 decks share the same colors doesn't imply the card problems/rewards will be similar between them. If you don't understand that, I don't expect you to understand why a heavy discard build that works mainly at sorcery speed prefers Painful Truths over Esper Charm.
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What's not constructive about it? Painful truths is a sorcery speed card that makes me take 3 damage to get three cards and I have to tap out to do that. In the current metagame, we have tons of aggro decks that are coming back because the meta is unknown. Why would I want to cast painful truths and help them when I can play esper charm which doesn't do any damage to me? Also if you are playing a thopter list, thirst for knowledge does a better impression that painful truths does for your deck. I haven't heard a convincing argument to use painful truths in this deck. (painful truths is great in jund/grixis because they don't have this many options for card draw that we do) I have critiqued the card well and I have played with the card in my esper mentor list and I ran into all of the issues that I described.
Let me put it this way: You played the card in a different deck that happens to be in the same colors.
Do you think that what test bad for Grixis control is also bad for Grixis Delver? How about Naya Zoo and Naya burn? Junk Midrange and Junk Little Kid? Jund Midrange and Jund Goblins?
The fact that 2 decks share the same colors doesn't imply the card problems/rewards will be similar between them. If you don't understand that, I don't expect you to understand why a heavy discard build that works mainly at sorcery speed prefers Painful Truths over Esper Charm.
Different decks do different things well. Grixis and Jund play a tapout style deck where they don't mind tapping out to cast painful truths. Also they literally don't have an instant speed divination that has other modes that are useful. More importantly, Esper is a TERRIBLE deck at playing a tapout style of control. Esper decks that have done well in the past and currently are the decks that have played tons of counterspells aka the decks where esper charm succeeds hence my argument.
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While esper is not terrible at playing tap-out (tasigur, lingering souls, bitterblossom, liliana, baby jace, ashiok, I could go on...), I do think esper charm is stronger in this deck than painful truths. Maybe I'm biased because I play esper draw-go, but in the (admittedly limited)testing I;ve done with these styles of decks, mind rot is very relevent, as is instant speed drawing.
While esper is not terrible at playing tap-out (tasigur, lingering souls, bitterblossom, liliana, baby jace, ashiok, I could go on...), I do think esper charm is stronger in this deck than painful truths. Maybe I'm biased because I play esper draw-go, but in the (admittedly limited)testing I;ve done with these styles of decks, mind rot is very relevent, as is instant speed drawing.
Name one top 8 this deck has got by playing a tap out style. The only one that comes to mind is the Shouta Esper Mentor list form 2015 specifically made to counter twin in a twin heavy field. Literally most of esper's history with wincons have been white sun's zenith
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Thanks for posting. I'm assuming you aren't running snapcaster mage or creeping tar pit because you can't afford them. I would prioritize snapcaster as a 4 of eventually as they help a lot. Geist plays a lot like mentor in that he needs a lot of removal to get dmg threw. Elspeth, Knight-Errant is usually seen as a 1-2 of because she helps get dmg threw via her "leap" ability. I would go up to 4 geist of saint trafts. Counterspell wise you are running too many mana leaks and remands. I would go 3 remands and 2-3 remands while running something like 1-2 spell snares in their place or Logic Knot. I would also recommend esper charm in your build as well. Your discard suite is fine. In these types of decks planeswalkers are ususlly nice so I would go 1 Logic Knot and 1 Sorin, Solemn Visitor since they complement your gameplan nicely. Other utility spells include zealous persecution, azorius charm, Restoration Angel, Vendilion Clique, etc. Land wise you eventually will want creeping tar pit, (protects geist and brimaz)Eiganjo Castle
Just my 2 cents in the charm vs. truths argument, I've been playing the ichikawa mentor list since it popped up about a year ago and that style of deck absolutely wants to play the discard+truths type of game. You have to be proactive to maximize your mentor, on top of that most counterspells in modern are just bad. You definitely want charm in the draw go style of decks, but those are entirely different decks.
Other observations and changes I've made to the deck are:
-4 Snapcaster +3 Jace, Vryn's prodigy +1 Painful truths
Reason: Jace is a lightning rod in turn 2 that either clears the way for your mentor or takes over the game if unanswered. Snap is a great card but as an ambush viper it's not a real threat and not a 2 drop.
-1 Mentor +1 Kalitas
Reason: Kalitas helps tremendously against aggro and burn and is another must answer threat that can take over the game. Pretty sure mentor is the wrong card to cut for it, but can't decide what else to cut yet.
-1 disfigure +1 Plains
Reason: 23 lands is necessary, I like 2 plains in the main so I can deal with a potentially resolved blood moon
-2 Creeping tarpit +2 shambling vent
Reason: before vent was printed I found that the deck would stabilize within burn range and lose to an inevitable burn spell due to no hard counters. Vent lets us remove the inevitability especially against burn.
-1 Vault of the archangel +1 westvale abbey
Reason: This change has already provided a huge impact on many games. A lot of decks simply cannot beat or outrage and ormendhal and this deck provides plenty of tokens to sacrifice. Many unwinable games had different outcomes because of ormendhal.
Overall the recent bannings have been great for this deck and it has game against most of the tier 1 decks. Biggest piece of advice is to trust in your mentors, most people think they can out race your mentor and in most cases they are wrong. Know when to jam it on turn 3 and when to wait and get value.
As far as Esper goes in modern, I'm currently on a more midrange/control type list that feels a lot like a rock deck, and it served me well through Eldrazi winter and so far beyond as well. The deck doesn't play any of the gross counterspells in modern outside of 2x Negate in the main to shore up fast combo matchups.
I don't think that anyone can afford to be purely reactive in modern, because the format is too fast and too open and the answers just aren't as fast and versatile. Sitting back on a pile of mediocre counterspells and wraths is a good way to get killed, so I've opted for pressure + disruption. Otherwise it's an all-in tapout control grindhouse. I love this style of deck, and you get to play 4x of the best card in modern, Lingering Souls. Overall I like my current configuration a lot, but I'm not sold on my slots with Sorin, Solemn Visitor and Esper Charm. Looking for suggestions/advice there. I'm considering just maindecking one or both of the Damnations out of the side, but I'm really looking for ideas here. I've opted for Damnation over Supreme Verdict because of the strain that Liliana of the Veil puts on my manabase. I'm pretty heavily base black, so it just made more sense I think. Hit me up with questions, comments, and advice!
As far as Esper goes in modern, I'm currently on a more midrange/control type list that feels a lot like a rock deck, and it served me well through Eldrazi winter and so far beyond as well. The deck doesn't play any of the gross counterspells in modern outside of 2x Negate in the main to shore up fast combo matchups.
I don't think that anyone can afford to be purely reactive in modern, because the format is too fast and too open and the answers just aren't as fast and versatile. Sitting back on a pile of mediocre counterspells and wraths is a good way to get killed, so I've opted for pressure + disruption. Otherwise it's an all-in tapout control grindhouse. I love this style of deck, and you get to play 4x of the best card in modern, Lingering Souls. Overall I like my current configuration a lot, but I'm not sold on my slots with Sorin, Solemn Visitor and Esper Charm. Looking for suggestions/advice there. I'm considering just maindecking one or both of the Damnations out of the side, but I'm really looking for ideas here. I've opted for Damnation over Supreme Verdict because of the strain that Liliana of the Veil puts on my manabase. I'm pretty heavily base black, so it just made more sense I think. Hit me up with questions, comments, and advice!
The problem with cards like Tasigur and Jace Prodigy is that Grixis just utilize them far better (basically any Delve/ Delver strategy). Geist is also not a card you can just put into a midrange mold. You want as many removal as you can to clear the way for Geist and preferably, you want a lot of these removals to be burn to complement the guaranteed 4 damage that Geist will land you. Hand disruption is great but if you are on the draw, you want more reactive removal spells not proactive ones.
And if you're doubting Sorin SV, you should probably trust your intuition. It's a low-impact card in a non-token based strategy (in it, it's insane). If you want to run this midrange build, I think Elspeth Knight Errant would be far more impactful. This deck doesn't exactly play aggro, but jumping Tasigur / Geist is just a quick way to end the game.
If you're going to run wraths, you want to run less threats and add more card advantage cards. You don't want a deck that draws half of the wrong cards at the wrong time. So I recommend you devote fully either to control (draw-go) or to midrange. I don't know if you want to prioritize having fun or prioritize competitiveness but there is a lot of reasons not to run the Delver/ Delve strategy in Esper Colors. Instead, I think what may be more viable would be something like Esper Zur (with Geist + sword of the godhead) or Esper spirit tribal.
Recently thought about jumping back to this deck (you can see my PPTQ top 8 report way back on like page 7 or something) but not sure where people are with it right now. Here's what I've been toying with:
Match 1 vs. Sultai with goyf, snapcaster.
Went 2-0. Lingering souls was a beast, so was Geist of Saint Traft.
In: Relic and Needle (against his Lili's or Manlands)
Out: Disfigure
Match 2 vs. Affinity
Lost 0-2. In game 2, he had a super threat-ladden hand with no lands but 1 Mox Opal. Then, he drew two manlands (he needed one more mana to be able to cast either Plating, Overseer or Ravager of which I could only remove two).
In: Needle, Disenchant, Timely
Out: Dismember, Geist
More Affinity hate should help for the next time
Match 3 vs. Lantern
1-1. 3rd game, he was on 1 life before time went down...
In: Negate, Disenchant, Anguished
Out: Removal
Difficult game and I made some misplays. Stony and Engineered would have helped here. Jace could act as super slow wincon here. The best way is probably to discard/remove his bridge and drop a fast threat like Geist.
Match 4 vs. Norin-Soul Sisters-Human
Lost 1-2 against a very good player and I made some bad decisions (Path-Snap-Path to ramp him into his Purphoros, God of the Forge and Ranger of Eos, which enabled his blinking insanity). Liliana, the last Hope was an allstar here (she can remove Norin the wary with her +1).
In: Timely
Out: Thoughtseize -> A bad decision!! I could no longer discard Purphoros or Ranger.
The deck was super fun and I think it is very strong against other midrange strategies. I will test and sculpt it further. If you have suggestion, go ahead and post them.
Here is a list I have been having some fun with. Queller seems awesome in this shell.
Interesting, I thought about Spell queller myself. Do you have no problems to close out the games with him?
Do you side Queller out against Jund or Junk?
Its fairly reminiscent of the old esper twix lists.
I have a fairly small number of games with it so far, and while its fairly weak to gb/x, the matchup is probably not hopeless, and you've got game against basically everything.
Anything that relies on certain key cards, or a large critical mass of cards to win is probably at a disadvantage going into the game.
The deck went through several iterations, some with walkers (liliana of the veil/lasthope, sorin sv, ally gideon, etc), vials, baby jace, and more, but I like the playstyle of the hatebears.
The tron matchup is pretty rough without a fairly strong hand, and my sideboard is pretty light to it, as I have a lot more cards for jund/abzan.
Cutting ashiok for clique is a fairly solid choice if you wanted to swap those, however. Finding room for fulminator mages, or spreading seas is also an option.
I (and many before me ) found that Lingering Souls helps tremendously against GBx. Maybe you could play some main or side them in (for Wasteland Strangler?) against them?
Tron is definitively a though MU. For me, Spreading Seas was underwhelming against Tron when I played a slower version with Sword-Thopter combo. Maybe, it goes along well with a fast clock like Geist of Saint Traft. I am curious if anyone has tried out ceremonious rejection?
Posting here for information purposes. This deck has been a blast to play. Start with a Delver and while your opponent is busy trying to deal with it, you start stripping away their resources. Follow up with Lingering Souls/Tasigur/Angler and cruise to victory. I just recently switched Wretched Mind for Esper Charm and haven't had a chance to try it out yet.
More to the point, we're not looking at a tempo deck here. The specific list that contextualizes this discussion is a combo deck with alternate wincons in the form of Lingering Souls and Creeping Tar Pit. Outside of the combo, there is not a singular threat that you need to protect with counters (as is the case with other tempo decks, like Delver). Instead you have some low-impact threats that get nasty with Sword of the Meek, or you just combo out and force your opponent to both Wrath AND deal with Thopter Foundry.
In this context, it may be more important to draw cards (to assemble the combo or out-value your opponent after high-impact discard spells) than it is to hold up mana for an instant-speed Divination or Mind Rot.
Furthermore, the life loss from Painful Truths is both 1) modular (in the sense that you have control over how much life to pay and cards to draw) and 2) not that important, since you're likely to win via combo.
The one thing that Esper Charm has over Painful Truths in this particular build is the interaction with Jace. Draw 2 + make you discard 2 (or "hey, buddy. discard 4") can just win games.
Blue lives don't matter in the slightest.
I'm not playing thopter sword and I'm playing more than 6 maindeck counters. Also esper charm kills stony silence which is pretty important for your deck I'd wager.
Decks I'm playing in Modern right now:
URB Grixis Reveler (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-grixis-reveler/)
UB Faeries (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/ub-fae-2/)
UW Azorious Control (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-ojutai-control-2/)
This is the reason I didn't reply to you. You're criticizing a card (and giving it a bad value) from a deck you are not even playing. That isn't constructive at all.
What's not constructive about it? Painful truths is a sorcery speed card that makes me take 3 damage to get three cards and I have to tap out to do that. In the current metagame, we have tons of aggro decks that are coming back because the meta is unknown. Why would I want to cast painful truths and help them when I can play esper charm which doesn't do any damage to me? Also if you are playing a thopter list, thirst for knowledge does a better impression that painful truths does for your deck. I haven't heard a convincing argument to use painful truths in this deck. (painful truths is great in jund/grixis because they don't have this many options for card draw that we do) I have critiqued the card well and I have played with the card in my esper mentor list and I ran into all of the issues that I described.
Decks I'm playing in Modern right now:
URB Grixis Reveler (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-grixis-reveler/)
UB Faeries (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/ub-fae-2/)
UW Azorious Control (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-ojutai-control-2/)
Let me put it this way: You played the card in a different deck that happens to be in the same colors.
Do you think that what test bad for Grixis control is also bad for Grixis Delver? How about Naya Zoo and Naya burn? Junk Midrange and Junk Little Kid? Jund Midrange and Jund Goblins?
The fact that 2 decks share the same colors doesn't imply the card problems/rewards will be similar between them. If you don't understand that, I don't expect you to understand why a heavy discard build that works mainly at sorcery speed prefers Painful Truths over Esper Charm.
Different decks do different things well. Grixis and Jund play a tapout style deck where they don't mind tapping out to cast painful truths. Also they literally don't have an instant speed divination that has other modes that are useful. More importantly, Esper is a TERRIBLE deck at playing a tapout style of control. Esper decks that have done well in the past and currently are the decks that have played tons of counterspells aka the decks where esper charm succeeds hence my argument.
Decks I'm playing in Modern right now:
URB Grixis Reveler (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-grixis-reveler/)
UB Faeries (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/ub-fae-2/)
UW Azorious Control (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-ojutai-control-2/)
Name one top 8 this deck has got by playing a tap out style. The only one that comes to mind is the Shouta Esper Mentor list form 2015 specifically made to counter twin in a twin heavy field. Literally most of esper's history with wincons have been white sun's zenith
Decks I'm playing in Modern right now:
URB Grixis Reveler (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-grixis-reveler/)
UB Faeries (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/ub-fae-2/)
UW Azorious Control (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-ojutai-control-2/)
Sorry for my late response.
Yes, got no Tiago.
This thing is quite budgetary and i'll only take it to FNM's and alike.
So what Cards i have to cut for Esper Charm and the Walkers?
I think of cutting the Doomblade and Brimaz, King of Oreskos entirely and go down to 2 Mana Leak + 3 Remand. From here i'd like to add a single Spell Snare, 4-of Esper Charm and 2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant.
Could that be fine?
Green @ it's best
Other observations and changes I've made to the deck are:
-4 Snapcaster +3 Jace, Vryn's prodigy +1 Painful truths
Reason: Jace is a lightning rod in turn 2 that either clears the way for your mentor or takes over the game if unanswered. Snap is a great card but as an ambush viper it's not a real threat and not a 2 drop.
-1 Mentor +1 Kalitas
Reason: Kalitas helps tremendously against aggro and burn and is another must answer threat that can take over the game. Pretty sure mentor is the wrong card to cut for it, but can't decide what else to cut yet.
-1 disfigure +1 Plains
Reason: 23 lands is necessary, I like 2 plains in the main so I can deal with a potentially resolved blood moon
-2 Creeping tarpit +2 shambling vent
Reason: before vent was printed I found that the deck would stabilize within burn range and lose to an inevitable burn spell due to no hard counters. Vent lets us remove the inevitability especially against burn.
-1 Vault of the archangel +1 westvale abbey
Reason: This change has already provided a huge impact on many games. A lot of decks simply cannot beat or outrage and ormendhal and this deck provides plenty of tokens to sacrifice. Many unwinable games had different outcomes because of ormendhal.
Overall the recent bannings have been great for this deck and it has game against most of the tier 1 decks. Biggest piece of advice is to trust in your mentors, most people think they can out race your mentor and in most cases they are wrong. Know when to jam it on turn 3 and when to wait and get value.
I don't think that anyone can afford to be purely reactive in modern, because the format is too fast and too open and the answers just aren't as fast and versatile. Sitting back on a pile of mediocre counterspells and wraths is a good way to get killed, so I've opted for pressure + disruption. Otherwise it's an all-in tapout control grindhouse. I love this style of deck, and you get to play 4x of the best card in modern, Lingering Souls. Overall I like my current configuration a lot, but I'm not sold on my slots with Sorin, Solemn Visitor and Esper Charm. Looking for suggestions/advice there. I'm considering just maindecking one or both of the Damnations out of the side, but I'm really looking for ideas here. I've opted for Damnation over Supreme Verdict because of the strain that Liliana of the Veil puts on my manabase. I'm pretty heavily base black, so it just made more sense I think. Hit me up with questions, comments, and advice!
Note: A version I'm testing now is playing -2 Negate -1 Sorin, Solemn Visitor -1 Esper Charm in favor of +2 Thought Scour +1 Gurmag Angler and +1 Tombstalker.
2x Creeping Tar Pit
2x Darkslick Shores
4x Flooded Strand
2x Godless Shrine
1x Hallowed Fountain
1x Island
1x Marsh Flats
1x Plains
4x Polluted Delta
1x Shizo, Death's Storehouse
2x Swamp
2x Watery Grave
Instant (10)
1x Esper Charm
2x Negate
4x Path to Exile
1x Slaughter Pact
2x Thought Scour
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Lingering Souls
4x Serum Visions
2x Thoughtseize
Planeswalker (4)
3x Liliana of the Veil
1x Sorin, Solemn Visitor
Creature (9)
3x Geist of Saint Traft
3x Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
3x Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1x Celestial Purge
2x Damnation
2x Disfigure
3x Engineered Explosives
3x Leyline of the Void
2x Thoughtseize
2x Timely Reinforcements
The problem with cards like Tasigur and Jace Prodigy is that Grixis just utilize them far better (basically any Delve/ Delver strategy). Geist is also not a card you can just put into a midrange mold. You want as many removal as you can to clear the way for Geist and preferably, you want a lot of these removals to be burn to complement the guaranteed 4 damage that Geist will land you. Hand disruption is great but if you are on the draw, you want more reactive removal spells not proactive ones.
And if you're doubting Sorin SV, you should probably trust your intuition. It's a low-impact card in a non-token based strategy (in it, it's insane). If you want to run this midrange build, I think Elspeth Knight Errant would be far more impactful. This deck doesn't exactly play aggro, but jumping Tasigur / Geist is just a quick way to end the game.
If you're going to run wraths, you want to run less threats and add more card advantage cards. You don't want a deck that draws half of the wrong cards at the wrong time. So I recommend you devote fully either to control (draw-go) or to midrange. I don't know if you want to prioritize having fun or prioritize competitiveness but there is a lot of reasons not to run the Delver/ Delve strategy in Esper Colors. Instead, I think what may be more viable would be something like Esper Zur (with Geist + sword of the godhead) or Esper spirit tribal.
2 Plains
1 Island
2 Swamp
2 Shambling Vent
4 Flooded Strand
3 Ghost Quarter
1 Godless Shrine
1 Hallowed Fountain
4 Polluted Delta
1 Vault of the Archangel
1 Watery Grave
Creature (9)
3 Monastery Mentor
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
4 Path to Exile
4 Lingering Souls
4 Serum Visions
4 Thought Scour
2 Negate
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
2 Murderous Cut
1 Anguished Unmaking
3 Esper Charm
2 Fulminator Mage
1 Disenchant
2 Stony Silence
3 Timely Reinforcements
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
2 Negate
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Esper Charm
Sideboard Plan
Vs. Jund:
-2 Thoughtseize
-3 Inquisition of Kozilek
-2 Negate
+1 Esper Charm
+1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
+3 Timely Reinforcements
+2 Fulminator Mage
Vs. Jeskai Harbinger:
-4 Path to Exile
-2 Thought Scour
-2 Murderous Cut
+1 Esper Charm
+2 Fulminator Mage
+1 Surgical Extraction
+2 Negate
+2 Fulminator Mage
Vs. Merfolk:
-2 Negate
-3 Inquisition of Kozilek
-2 Thoughtseize
+2 Fulminator Mage
+1 Disenchant
+3 Timely Reinforcements
+1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
Vs. Infect:
-3 Monastery Mentor
-3 Esper Charm
+2 Fulminator Mage
+2 Negate
+2 Zealous Persecution
Vs. Burn:
-2 Thoughtseize
-1 Anguished Unmaking
-2 Esper Charm
+3 Timely Reinforcements
+2 Negate
Vs. Affinity:
-2 Negate
-3 Inquisition of Kozilek
-2 Thoughtseize
-3 Esper Charm
+2 Fulminator Mage
+1 Disenchant
+2 Stony Silence
+3 Timely Reinforcements
+2 Zealous Persecution
Vs. Gx Tron:
-4 Lingering Souls
-2 Thought Scour
-2 Murderous Cut
+2 Fulminator Mage
+1 Disenchant
+2 Stony Silence
+2 Negate
+1 Surgical Extraction
+1 Esper Charm
Vs. Abzan Company:
-1 Thought Scour
-2 Negate
-3 Inquisition of Kozilek
-2 Thoughtseize
+3 Timely Reinforcements
+1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
+1 Surgical Extraction
+2 Zealous Persecution
+1 Esper Charm
Anyone tried anything like this recently? How does it look?
I've been following this thread quietly but now I have (almost) finished my Esper Midrange deck (inspired by this).
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Godless shrine
1 Watery Grave
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Concealed Courtyard
1 Darkslick shores
1 Seachrome Coast
1 Shambling Vent
1 Celestial Colonnade
1 Plains
1 Island
2 Swamp
4 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
1 Snapcaster Mage
4 Geist of Saint Traft
3 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
Disruption
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
3 Disfigure
4 Path to Exile
2 Collective Brutality
1 Dismember
1 Tribute to Hunger
Card selection/GY fueling
4 Serum Visions
1 Thought scour
Value
2 Liliana, the last Hope
4 Lingering Souls
2 Stony Silence
2 Negate
2 Timely Reinforcements
2 Pithing Needle
1 Blessed Alliance
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Anguished Unmaking
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
The list is not yet optimal: I would replace some cards with Liliana of the Veil, most notably Tribute to Hunger. Creeping Tar Pit should replace one of my current manlands. Further, I want to go up with Thought scour.
With the above list, I went 1-1-2 at a small event. However, I did not have the sideboard (Stony Silence was Disenchant, no Blessed Alliance and Engineered Explosives).
Match 1 vs. Sultai with goyf, snapcaster.
Went 2-0. Lingering souls was a beast, so was Geist of Saint Traft.
In: Relic and Needle (against his Lili's or Manlands)
Out: Disfigure
Match 2 vs. Affinity
Lost 0-2. In game 2, he had a super threat-ladden hand with no lands but 1 Mox Opal. Then, he drew two manlands (he needed one more mana to be able to cast either Plating, Overseer or Ravager of which I could only remove two).
In: Needle, Disenchant, Timely
Out: Dismember, Geist
More Affinity hate should help for the next time
Match 3 vs. Lantern
1-1. 3rd game, he was on 1 life before time went down...
In: Negate, Disenchant, Anguished
Out: Removal
Difficult game and I made some misplays. Stony and Engineered would have helped here. Jace could act as super slow wincon here. The best way is probably to discard/remove his bridge and drop a fast threat like Geist.
Match 4 vs. Norin-Soul Sisters-Human
Lost 1-2 against a very good player and I made some bad decisions (Path-Snap-Path to ramp him into his Purphoros, God of the Forge and Ranger of Eos, which enabled his blinking insanity). Liliana, the last Hope was an allstar here (she can remove Norin the wary with her +1).
In: Timely
Out: Thoughtseize -> A bad decision!! I could no longer discard Purphoros or Ranger.
The deck was super fun and I think it is very strong against other midrange strategies. I will test and sculpt it further. If you have suggestion, go ahead and post them.
3 Dark Confident
4 Spell Queller
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Lingering Souls
4 Serum Visions
2 Thoughtseize
2 Disfigure
2 Remand
1 Murderous Cut
1 Thought Scour
2 Mana Leak
4 Path to Exile
2 Spell Snare
1 Godless Shrine
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Plains
4 Polluted Delta
2 Seachrome Coast
1 Swamp
1 Watery Grave
2 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Celestial Colonnade
2 Island
2 Darkslick Shores
Here is a list I have been having some fun with. Queller seems awesome in this shell.
Interesting, I thought about Spell queller myself. Do you have no problems to close out the games with him?
Do you side Queller out against Jund or Junk?
Mine is much more creature heavy, but I think its still pretty comparable.
2 geist of saint traft
3 meddling mage
4 spell queller
4 tidehollow sculler
3 wasteland strangler
2 dismember
4 path to exile
2 slaughter pact
1 collective brutality
2 remand
2 spell snare
4 inquisition of kozilek
2 thoughtseize
2 creeping tarpit
2 shambling vent
2 river of tears
3 flooded strand
3 polluted delta
1 godless shrine
1 watery grave
2 hallowed fountain
1 island
1 plains
1 swamp
2 rest in peace
1 anguished unmaking
2 countersquall
1 dispel
3 esper charm
1 zealous persecution
2 ashiok, nightmare weaver
2 supreme verdict
Its fairly reminiscent of the old esper twix lists.
I have a fairly small number of games with it so far, and while its fairly weak to gb/x, the matchup is probably not hopeless, and you've got game against basically everything.
Anything that relies on certain key cards, or a large critical mass of cards to win is probably at a disadvantage going into the game.
The deck went through several iterations, some with walkers (liliana of the veil/lasthope, sorin sv, ally gideon, etc), vials, baby jace, and more, but I like the playstyle of the hatebears.
The tron matchup is pretty rough without a fairly strong hand, and my sideboard is pretty light to it, as I have a lot more cards for jund/abzan.
Cutting ashiok for clique is a fairly solid choice if you wanted to swap those, however. Finding room for fulminator mages, or spreading seas is also an option.
Tron is definitively a though MU. For me, Spreading Seas was underwhelming against Tron when I played a slower version with Sword-Thopter combo. Maybe, it goes along well with a fast clock like Geist of Saint Traft. I am curious if anyone has tried out ceremonious rejection?
4x Thought Scour
4x Serum Visions
2x Thoughtseize
4x Path to Exile
4x Lingering Souls
2x Timely Reinforcements
4x Esper Charm
Creatures
4x Delver of Secrets/Insectile Aberration
3x Snapcaster Mage
2x Tasigur, the Golden Fang
2x Gurmag Angler
4x Liliana of the Veil
Lands
4x Flooded Strand [some combo of UBW fetches]
1x Polluted Delta
4x Hallowed Fountain
4x Watery Grave
1x Godless Shrine
2x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2x Ghost Quarter
2x Island
1x Plains
2x Supreme Verdict
2x Dismember
2x Disenchant
2x Celestial Purge
3x Dispel
1x Timely Reinforcements
1x Stony Silence
2x Surgical Extraction