There 8s definately an inverse relationship between bolts prevalence and mentors viability. Also having disrupting shoal in your main 60 makes mentor a little more likely to live.
Thanks! Here's my current list. I'm super new to this archetype so feedback is greatly appreciated. Not sure if Snap is necessary with 4 Jace. I tried JTMS and I wasnt too hot on him, kind of just felt like a 4 mana brainstorm...
I'm new here. Stumbled upon this thread while tweaking/tinkering with my Esper tempo list. It is something I have been working on for months now because I can never decide on a finally list to settle with.
*I opted for [[Tidehollow Sculler]] over [[Lingering Souls]] for three main reasons: 1. I wanted the deck to be lower to the ground, since if I tap out on turn 3 its for Geist. 2. I wanted another early threat to absorb removal, making my Spell Quellers better (deck currently had no turn 2 play other than hold up for counterspells) 3. I like the disruption the cards brings as well as being on a 2/2 body seems like what tempo wants to be doing.*
I can't think of any other comments/concerns right now. So I am excited to hear ya'lls feedback, so I can discuss the deck further and hopefully decide on a final list.
Normally i would advise against running sculler in a deck so light on creatures, as he tends to lightning-rod removal without other beaters pressuring the opp (see D&T), but pairing him with queller is very intriguing. I may have to test that one out. I will maintain, however, that Lingering Souls is strong enough in any meta to warrent finding 3-4 slots for them. There are so many decks that struggle with them game 1. Also, Collective Brutality is incredibly versatile and a HOUSE against burn, finding homes for a couple of those would be worthwhile as well. Not to mention the synergy between Brutality and Souls. Happy brewing bud, please post results.
Normally i would advise against running sculler in a deck so light on creatures, as he tends to lightning-rod removal without other beaters pressuring the opp (see D&T), but pairing him with queller is very intriguing. I may have to test that one out. I will maintain, however, that Lingering Souls is strong enough in any meta to warrent finding 3-4 slots for them. There are so many decks that struggle with them game 1. Also, Collective Brutality is incredibly versatile and a HOUSE against burn, finding homes for a couple of those would be worthwhile as well. Not to mention the synergy between Brutality and Souls. Happy brewing bud, please post results.
Yeah I also have a midrange shell I have been wanting to test with Lingering Souls and the disruption packed of CB/Iok/Thoughtseize. Just with this list I want to be applying pressure, and not tapping out, unless its absolutely safe/or it provides immediate pressure(win condition to the board) so I can hold up counterspell/flash creature on opponnents end step or disrupt anything they want to do. Yeah I really like sculler in creature heavy lists for the reason you say, though this list may be light compared to things like Taxes. I don't believe Sculler is the real threat here. If an opponent wants to waste a removal spell on him to free up something to their hand thats fine. Its less they have to remove Queller. And more often than not, will have a counterspell to protect the Sculler.
I wanted to try and fit in Restoration Angels somewhere in here as an ambush for the rise of BBE, but also the fun little extra value plays of flickering Snaps on the board, or even Scullers on cast.
Oh gotcha. Hmm. Yours is a bit more creature-centric than mine.
So if I'm trying out a deck, I personally have to follow this rule: Don't ever play a worse version of some other deck. So I need a compelling argument on whether this can at least be situationally better than Jund to even be worth testing.
Essentially, what I found was that I desperately needed some way to clock the decks than can go over us (big mana/combo decks). Geist can do that, but he doesn't come down until turn 3, and if our opponent is playing any blockers, geist is quite mediocre.
So I instead went for the delve creatures to act as my "Tarmogoyfs". Goyf dies to push, but can always be played turn 2. Jace is the obvious BBE analogue as a 4 mana value play. He doesn't apply pressure in the same way, but he can be significantly more value if he can stay in play for more than a turn. Then I get lingering souls and snapcaster over liliana and dark confidant. This is a tough comparison. Souls and Snap are much better at protecting me but worse at applying "pressure" (confidant and liliana are worse than snap/souls if they are answered immediately, but get out of hand if they stick around). Path is both better worse than the red removal that Jund gets. In some situations path is amazing and in others its crap.
So the mainboard spells seem to be relatively equal in power level. Jund is better at killing their opponent, but esper seems to be better at staying alive and grinding the opponent out. In modern it's generally better to be proactive, so Jund probably has an edge here.
Where I think esper is better than Jund is the manabase and sideboard. The spells of Esper are significantly less color intensive than Jund's. So it can afford to play some number of Field of Ruin (I'm currently testing all 4, but that may be incorrect in the end). Ancient grudge and kcommand are great, but stony is brutal. Jund usually doesn't play many (if any) sweepers because they play to the board so much. Esper can play verdict and settle the wreckage. Esper also gets counterspells which can make up for its weaker pressure against the unfair decks.
So in conclusion, I'm happy to say that Esper midrange at least deserves some testing. It may not be better than Jund overall, but if the meta shakes out to pretty fair and creature centric, then going a little slower and going over the top of Jund could be a good call.
Finally, here's the 75 I'm currently on. I think the mana needs work, and the sideboard can always be changed:
And yeah I actually agree with a lot of your points. It has been hard to find a right shell for Esper for me since there hasn't really been any well placed lists to get a basis of. Especially for a tempo style player like myself. Because of that I have had to build a lot of different shells that I've wanted to test to try and find something that is fun and not so linear as some of the metagame is now.
This list looks a lot like my Delve shell with some few changes I have made to make it play faster/more protective.
Its hard trying to pinpoint which kind of shell/list would be better positioned since I don't have the funds right now to test every one
Elspeth is a pet card of mine for these Esper Lists because it gives cards like Geist and Gurmag evasiveness to go unblocked and swing freely. As well as make smaller creatures like tokens/Snapcaster/Spell Queller extreme threats. As she comes down she immediately effects the board even if its empty by spawn 1/1s
I've been desperately wanting to try and play Mishra's Bauble to help dig through the deck. It being a free spell as well to throw into the bin to speed up Gurmag is great as well. It also has some interesting lines/choices of when/who to bauble before your thought scour or fetch so you're not losing anything too impactful.
Hi guys! I've just about finished my 'pet' deck for modern, and I figured it best fits in this thread. Looking for any constructive feedback on it, I'm not shooting for Tier 1 here, but being competitive is good.
I have no idea about the SB quite yet, planning to try this out at an actual event soon. My local meta's are very heavy on Burn decks though. I love Dragonlord Ojutai so I just wanted to build a control deck around it, could just actually be terrible but we'll see I suppose.
If you wanna go this route with Dragonlord Ojutai, I highly recommend running a Minamo, School at Water's Edge. It's really nice with being able to untapping Ojutai at instant speed to protect him. Also, if you are dead set on running JTMS should try to fit in Lingering Souls because as of right now it looks like you have no other way to really protect him. Deck looks sweet though.
This may or may not be the correct forum for my build, hopefully my permission build isnt too unwelcome. Please forgive me if im out of place.
Im a long time Black Discard based pilot, everything from Jund to Sultai to Mardu, and i wanted to try something different. I built Esper Geist, running mostly at instant speed for answers, but some threats are at sorcery.
It should be noted that the subpar Jace in the board is a stand in for another Mind Sculpter, and I dont think Ojutai is gonna make the cut either. In fact, the whole sideboard is in flux; RIP may become Surgical Extraction, Disdainful may become Ceremonious Rejection, could probably stand to find room for some Runed Halo for Valukut (perhaps Spreading Seas?) and Bogles, same with Enchantment Hate. Maybe.
Let me know what you think, looking for input after a very small modern shindig last night. 3 rounds, had the bye first round (Lame) and then beat Affinity and Jund 2-0 each. Affinity game one stabilized at 2 life, cluttering board with souls, spot removing threats wherever possible, then 3 turn beatdown with Geist and Tarpit. Jund G1 won on the back of Souls and an uncontested Jace, disrupting and tempoing him out. G2 He lands early LotV, but discards 2nd Lily to +1, having not seen geist in G1. Pressure Lily with souls, then drop Geist and control game til done. The deck felt good, and didnt play nearly as rusty as I thought i would, but always on the lookout for feedback. Also, if this deck is grossly misplaced here, i can accept that too.
To make this better or on par with Jund then don't we have to change our philosophy of what Esper can offer? The primary reason to add black right now in a deck like this would be to add the trio of 1cc power: Fatal Push, Thoughtseize, Inquisition of Kozilek.
What makes white blue, white black and blue black push it over the edge? Tidehollow Sculler and Geist of Saint Traft come to mind?
To make that work, we would need some disruption before that, or card advantage after that? I think a creature version would be good with Thalia, Guardian of Thraben.
After all this, we need to come up with a plan to keep the momentum going or at least strike hard and fast? I was thinking Death's Shadow which makes Ranger of Eos better, but can we really justify it?
I hope I gave enough of a stepping stone to find a new path for Esper Midrange?
To make this better or on par with Jund then don't we have to change our philosophy of what Esper can offer? The primary reason to add black right now in a deck like this would be to add the trio of 1cc power: Fatal Push, Thoughtseize, Inquisition of Kozilek.
What makes white blue, white black and blue black push it over the edge? Tidehollow Sculler and Geist of Saint Traft come to mind?
To make that work, we would need some disruption before that, or card advantage after that? I think a creature version would be good with Thalia, Guardian of Thraben.
After all this, we need to come up with a plan to keep the momentum going or at least strike hard and fast? I was thinking Death's Shadow which makes Ranger of Eos better, but can we really justify it?
I hope I gave enough of a stepping stone to find a new path for Esper Midrange?
I respect the theoretical approach to deckbuilding. If I may add, in my opinion the top reasons for running black are actually Fatal Push and Lingering Souls. This deck could head in two directions from there, either include a strong discard package (e.g., thoughtseize) backed up by late game delve fatties or forego the discard plan and come up with a something "lower to the ground" so to speak. I think the former gameplan is currently outdone by the likes of Grixis, but they notably lack Path to exile so I think there could be reason to still play white especially considering the highly relevant sideboard options it provides. Personally my dream would be to pursue the latter more aggressive approach but I just don't think we currently have the right tools to make it work. Fingers crossed something exciting gets printed or a moment of innovation strikes us!
Here is my list variant for Esper Control. I am about 95% decided on the majority of cards. I may try to find something to cut for 2nd Teferi in the main. I have one in the side just because the LGS majority of players are on fast decks like Jund/Affinity. Anyways let me know what you think.
This is not my main deck, but I've always loved esper colors. I've made this deck with cards that I already own, so maybe it is not as consistent as it should be, but I love to play casual with friends. I hope you find it interesting or inspirational!
This is a deck that wants to discard and remove the first threats, and then finish the opponent slowly with lingering souls, snapcaster mage, some gideon or with manlands.
4 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Spell Queller
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
Spells
3 Fatal Push
3 Path to Exile
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
4 Thought Scour
2 Collective Brutality
2 Anguished Unmaking
4 Lingering Souls
2 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
Land
1 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Flooded Strand
2 Godless Shrine
2 Hallowed Fountain
1 Island
2 Plains
4 Polluted Delta
2 Swamp
2 Watery Grave
2 Field of Ruin
3 Ceremonious Rejection
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Blessed Alliance
2 Disenchant
2 Stony Silence
2 Narset Transcendent
1 Supreme Verdict
I'm new here. Stumbled upon this thread while tweaking/tinkering with my Esper tempo list. It is something I have been working on for months now because I can never decide on a finally list to settle with.
So here is my list:
3 Geist of Saint Traft
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Restoration Angel
4 Spell Queller
1 Vendilion Clique
4 Tidehollow Sculler
Land
3 Island
1 Swamp
2 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Hallowed Fountain
1 Godless Shrine
1 Watery Grave
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
2 Plains
1 Glacial Fortress
2 Moorland Haunt
2 Spell Snare
3 Cryptic Command
3 Mana Leak
3 Path to Exile
3 Fatal Push
1 Peek
1 Logic Knot
4 Serum Visions
Planeswalker
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Mirran Crusader
2 Stony Silence
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Countersquall
1 Dispel
2 Disdainful Stroke
1 Disenchant
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Settle the Wreckage
2 Thoughtseize
Looking for any advice as well.
*I opted for [[Tidehollow Sculler]] over [[Lingering Souls]] for three main reasons: 1. I wanted the deck to be lower to the ground, since if I tap out on turn 3 its for Geist. 2. I wanted another early threat to absorb removal, making my Spell Quellers better (deck currently had no turn 2 play other than hold up for counterspells) 3. I like the disruption the cards brings as well as being on a 2/2 body seems like what tempo wants to be doing.*
I can't think of any other comments/concerns right now. So I am excited to hear ya'lls feedback, so I can discuss the deck further and hopefully decide on a final list.
Yeah I also have a midrange shell I have been wanting to test with Lingering Souls and the disruption packed of CB/Iok/Thoughtseize. Just with this list I want to be applying pressure, and not tapping out, unless its absolutely safe/or it provides immediate pressure(win condition to the board) so I can hold up counterspell/flash creature on opponnents end step or disrupt anything they want to do. Yeah I really like sculler in creature heavy lists for the reason you say, though this list may be light compared to things like Taxes. I don't believe Sculler is the real threat here. If an opponent wants to waste a removal spell on him to free up something to their hand thats fine. Its less they have to remove Queller. And more often than not, will have a counterspell to protect the Sculler.
I wanted to try and fit in Restoration Angels somewhere in here as an ambush for the rise of BBE, but also the fun little extra value plays of flickering Snaps on the board, or even Scullers on cast.
Here is the more midrange list, its what I originally started with, but, at least to me, feels no where fine tuned.
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/esper-trix-13/?cb=1521504197
So if I'm trying out a deck, I personally have to follow this rule: Don't ever play a worse version of some other deck. So I need a compelling argument on whether this can at least be situationally better than Jund to even be worth testing.
Essentially, what I found was that I desperately needed some way to clock the decks than can go over us (big mana/combo decks). Geist can do that, but he doesn't come down until turn 3, and if our opponent is playing any blockers, geist is quite mediocre.
So I instead went for the delve creatures to act as my "Tarmogoyfs". Goyf dies to push, but can always be played turn 2. Jace is the obvious BBE analogue as a 4 mana value play. He doesn't apply pressure in the same way, but he can be significantly more value if he can stay in play for more than a turn. Then I get lingering souls and snapcaster over liliana and dark confidant. This is a tough comparison. Souls and Snap are much better at protecting me but worse at applying "pressure" (confidant and liliana are worse than snap/souls if they are answered immediately, but get out of hand if they stick around). Path is both better worse than the red removal that Jund gets. In some situations path is amazing and in others its crap.
So the mainboard spells seem to be relatively equal in power level. Jund is better at killing their opponent, but esper seems to be better at staying alive and grinding the opponent out. In modern it's generally better to be proactive, so Jund probably has an edge here.
Where I think esper is better than Jund is the manabase and sideboard. The spells of Esper are significantly less color intensive than Jund's. So it can afford to play some number of Field of Ruin (I'm currently testing all 4, but that may be incorrect in the end). Ancient grudge and kcommand are great, but stony is brutal. Jund usually doesn't play many (if any) sweepers because they play to the board so much. Esper can play verdict and settle the wreckage. Esper also gets counterspells which can make up for its weaker pressure against the unfair decks.
So in conclusion, I'm happy to say that Esper midrange at least deserves some testing. It may not be better than Jund overall, but if the meta shakes out to pretty fair and creature centric, then going a little slower and going over the top of Jund could be a good call.
Finally, here's the 75 I'm currently on. I think the mana needs work, and the sideboard can always be changed:
2 Gurmag Angler
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Thought Scour
4 Fatal Push
4 Path to Exile
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
2 Collective Brutality
2 Marsh Flats
2 Flooded Strand
4 Field of Ruin
1 Godless Shrine
2 Hallowed Fountain
2 Watery Grave
2 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Island
2 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Settle the Wreckage
1 Supreme Verdict
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Collective Brutality
2 Stony Silence
2 Disdainful Stroke
2 Countersquall
2 Vendilion Clique
Now we should just cross our fingers for stoneforge mystic getting unbanned... then Esper could actually be premier midrange deck. Haha
And yeah I actually agree with a lot of your points. It has been hard to find a right shell for Esper for me since there hasn't really been any well placed lists to get a basis of. Especially for a tempo style player like myself. Because of that I have had to build a lot of different shells that I've wanted to test to try and find something that is fun and not so linear as some of the metagame is now.
This list looks a lot like my Delve shell with some few changes I have made to make it play faster/more protective.
2 Geist of Saint Traft
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Spell Queller
1 Vendilion Clique
3 Gurmag Angler
Land
2 Island
1 Swamp
2 Drowned Catacomb
2 Hallowed Fountain
1 Godless Shrine
1 Watery Grave
3 Flooded Strand
2 Marsh Flats
4 Polluted Delta
2 Plains
4 Path to Exile
3 Thought Scour
3 Fatal Push
2 Spell Pierce
Sorcery
4 Serum Visions
2 Thoughtseize
3 Lingering Souls
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
Planeswalker
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
Artifact
3 Mishra's Bauble
1 Ceremonious Rejection
2 Collective Brutality
1 Countersquall
1 Disdainful Stroke
2 Disenchant
1 Dispel
2 Flaying Tendrils
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Stony Silence
2 Surgical Extraction
Its hard trying to pinpoint which kind of shell/list would be better positioned since I don't have the funds right now to test every one
Elspeth is a pet card of mine for these Esper Lists because it gives cards like Geist and Gurmag evasiveness to go unblocked and swing freely. As well as make smaller creatures like tokens/Snapcaster/Spell Queller extreme threats. As she comes down she immediately effects the board even if its empty by spawn 1/1s
I've been desperately wanting to try and play Mishra's Bauble to help dig through the deck. It being a free spell as well to throw into the bin to speed up Gurmag is great as well. It also has some interesting lines/choices of when/who to bauble before your thought scour or fetch so you're not losing anything too impactful.
Trying to decide between split of Push/Path
4 Dragonlord Ojutai
2 Silumgar, the Drifting Death
Spells:
2 Nameless Inversion
4 Silumgar's Scorn
4 Serum Visions
4 Path to Exile
4 Fatal Push
2 Logic Knot
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Supreme Verdict
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
2 Hallowed Fountain
2 Watery Grave
1 Godless Shrine
3 Island
1 Swamp
1 Plains
4 Celestial Colonnade
3 Field of Ruin
I have no idea about the SB quite yet, planning to try this out at an actual event soon. My local meta's are very heavy on Burn decks though. I love Dragonlord Ojutai so I just wanted to build a control deck around it, could just actually be terrible but we'll see I suppose.
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/developing-competitive-modern/598381-kiki-chord-kiki-company
Bring to Niv
https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/deck-creation-modern/814060-bring-to-niv-the-golden-deck
Legacy - Lands
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/legacy-type-1-5/established-legacy/control/535484-primer-lands
Im a long time Black Discard based pilot, everything from Jund to Sultai to Mardu, and i wanted to try something different. I built Esper Geist, running mostly at instant speed for answers, but some threats are at sorcery.
The List:
3 Spell Queller
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique
3 Fatal Push
3 Path To Exile
2 Opt
3 Remand
3 Logic Knot
2 Cryptic Command
4 Serum Visions
3 Lingering Souls
2 Collective Brutality
2 Search For Azcanta
1 Jace, The Mind Sculpter
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Watery Grave
2 Hallowed Fountain
1 Godless Shrine
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp
3 Creeping Tarpit
1 Celestial Colonnade
1 Glacial Fortress
1 Drowned Catacomb
2 Rest In Peace
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Dispel
2 Disdainful Stroke
2 Supreme Verdict
1 Jace, Architect of Thought
1 Dragonlord Ojutai
It should be noted that the subpar Jace in the board is a stand in for another Mind Sculpter, and I dont think Ojutai is gonna make the cut either. In fact, the whole sideboard is in flux; RIP may become Surgical Extraction, Disdainful may become Ceremonious Rejection, could probably stand to find room for some Runed Halo for Valukut (perhaps Spreading Seas?) and Bogles, same with Enchantment Hate. Maybe.
Let me know what you think, looking for input after a very small modern shindig last night. 3 rounds, had the bye first round (Lame) and then beat Affinity and Jund 2-0 each. Affinity game one stabilized at 2 life, cluttering board with souls, spot removing threats wherever possible, then 3 turn beatdown with Geist and Tarpit. Jund G1 won on the back of Souls and an uncontested Jace, disrupting and tempoing him out. G2 He lands early LotV, but discards 2nd Lily to +1, having not seen geist in G1. Pressure Lily with souls, then drop Geist and control game til done. The deck felt good, and didnt play nearly as rusty as I thought i would, but always on the lookout for feedback. Also, if this deck is grossly misplaced here, i can accept that too.
What makes white blue, white black and blue black push it over the edge? Tidehollow Sculler and Geist of Saint Traft come to mind?
To make that work, we would need some disruption before that, or card advantage after that? I think a creature version would be good with Thalia, Guardian of Thraben.
After all this, we need to come up with a plan to keep the momentum going or at least strike hard and fast? I was thinking Death's Shadow which makes Ranger of Eos better, but can we really justify it?
I hope I gave enough of a stepping stone to find a new path for Esper Midrange?
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Restoration Angel
Enchantment
2 Search for Azcanta
Land
2 Plains
2 Celestial Colonnade
1 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Hallowed Fountain
1 Godless Shrine
1 Watery Grave
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
3 Island
1 Marsh Flats
2 Field of Ruin
4 Path to Exile
1 Negate
2 Logic Knot
1 Secure the Wastes
3 Cryptic Command
3 Fatal Push
Sorcery
4 Serum Visions
2 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Lingering Souls
2 Supreme Verdict
Planeswalker
1 Teferi, Hero of Dominaria
1 Lyra Dawnbringer
2 Stony Silence
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Damping Sphere
1 Negate
1 Dispel
1 Disenchant
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Blessed Alliance
1 Settle the Wreckage
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
This is a deck that wants to discard and remove the first threats, and then finish the opponent slowly with lingering souls, snapcaster mage, some gideon or with manlands.
I will appreciate your comments and suggestions
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Gideon of the Trials
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1 Gideon Jura
//discard
2 Collective Brutality
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
//removal
3 Fatal Push
4 Path to Exile
1 Detention Sphere
2 Supreme Verdict
//draw
3 Serum Visions
2 Opt
4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Lingering Souls
//lands
2 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Shambling Vent
2 Godless Shrine
1 Hallowed Fountain
4 Marsh Flats
2 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
3 Plains
2 Swamp
1 Island
3 Field of Ruin
2 surgical extraction
2 nihil spellbomb
3 stony silence
2 dispel
1 blessed alliance
1 engineered explosives
2 damping sphere
1 flaying tendrils
1 ashiok, nightmare weaver