Galerion: Darktutor included the Esper Delve variant in this primer, yes. Patrick Chapin's decklist is in the primer. The other thread you're refering to isn't a primer.
I am seeing a lot of success and innovation between players playing the newly viable archetype. I'm seeing a lot of 3-1s and 4-0s here, even a Top 16 at a MOL large event. I will contact the mods to ask to get moved to Developing competitive, where we trul;y belong. I would also say that is not gonna be long til we get moved to Tier 2 in the near future if enough people get excited about the deck. I have seen lots of people in my local meta started building this. Hurrah for us Esper mages, could this be our time in modern?
BTW: I haven't been testing this much, nor playing since I traded away 80% of my collection towards dual lands at LGS so that I could play Legacy. I will get back on track and focus on Esper Midrange as soon as I can get some card stock back.
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In Lorwyn's brief evenings, the sun pauses at the horizon long enough for a certain species of violet to bloom with the fragrance of mischief.
So do you think Deprive could have a place in this deck instead of remand or spellsnare as in Ichikawa's list? I've yet to actualy play the deck as i'm still in the process of putting it together but it looks like it might be worth considering.
Is thought scour really needed in these lists, since this one isn't going heavy into the delve theme? Would another single mana cantrip be better (Gitaxian, Serum)? Or is the opportunity to hit an early Tasigur too much of an up side?
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Modern: UWR Breach, UWB Esper control
Legacy: UW RiP/Helm, UR Sneak and Show
Is thought scour really needed in these lists, since this one isn't going heavy into the delve theme? Would another single mana cantrip be better (Gitaxian, Serum)? Or is the opportunity to hit an early Tasigur too much of an up side?
It's also good with Murderous Cut.
And most importantly you are running 4 Snapcaster Mages. Doesn't hurt the get him a few more targets.
I do like instant speed cantripping for Mentor. My biggest concern is that the lists seem to be pretty land light. I would hate to mill through some lands if you are getting screwed. But I haven't played this list at all yet. I'll definitely do some testing in the coming weeks.
Edit: I'm wondering if main deck counters are even necessary or if it's worth cutting in favor of better action, and siding in to a counter plan if needed.
I do like instant speed cantripping for Mentor. My biggest concern is that the lists seem to be pretty land light. I would hate to mill through some lands if you are getting screwed. But I haven't played this list at all yet. I'll definitely do some testing in the coming weeks.
Edit: I'm wondering if main deck counters are even necessary or if it's worth cutting in favor of better action, and siding in to a counter plan if needed.
I've been playing this on MTGO for like a week now. Going off Yuuki's list, 22 lands (with 4 Creeping Tar Pit) is pretty ambitions. I've been doing fine at 23 land 3 Tar Pits though.
As for the counters, I like Spell Snare since there's so much stuff being cast at 2 mana in this format it's rarely gonna be a dead card. Plus, a turn 1 discard spell can let you know if you need to keep open mana for spell snare in subsequent turns or if you can tap out. Remand is awful in this deck though. I cut it and never looked back.
Just discovering this deck! looks very cool
Mishra's Bauble + gitaxian probe are really strong with Monastery Mentor.
And what about Brimaz in those lists?
I wanted to built a Grixis delver deck but now.. i'm not sure anymore^^
What are the advantages of this deck over a grixis with lot of 2 for 1 ?
I think that's my point, that the mill can be just as detrimental as it is helpful. I have been using serum visions to set up mills that don't matter a bit and that has been working nicely. I'm going to play around with quicken this weekend. It seems kind of cute, but there are enough low cost sorceries I think to justify using it, and playing instant speed cantrips to trigger mentor/prowess is valuable. Probably won't be great but still.
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Modern: UWR Breach, UWB Esper control
Legacy: UW RiP/Helm, UR Sneak and Show
This deck is super interesting to me and lots of fun. I have been testing around with this list the last few days, and so far I really like it. I'm not sure about lingering souls and the sideboard is a mess, but overall I think its a pretty fun deck. If I take out souls, I'd probably add 2 more delver of secrets. Its a great turn 1 play here, as it starts the pressure and keeps the opponent punching off their heels early in the game. It is usually enough to allow a safe monastery mentor casting. Myth realized is another card I am unsure of. It is great early game and can grow really fast, it dodges sorcery speed removal for the most part and is a great mana dump later. Late game; however, it is not so good. If I've boarded in Liliana its a no brainer discard most of the time if I need to plus her. definitely worth more testing though.
Any thoughts on this list? I'd like to get it where I am comfortable with it before I start spending the money on the cards I don't have (been testing on cockatrice).
Delver is a 4 of or nothing, Souls is a must have 4 in this deck. You don't need 3 spell snare, you have Kosilek and removal (you need ore removal^^). Mishra's Bauble... hmmm... very good with Mentor, but not that much with Delver... Serum vision, why not... have to be tested.
-2 myth +2 souls for sure
eventually -2 Bauble +2 delver and -1 spell snare +1 removal
To be able to play Tasigur efficiently, you will probably need some Thoughts scour, may be.
I think that's my point, that the mill can be just as detrimental as it is helpful. I have been using serum visions to set up mills that don't matter a bit and that has been working nicely. I'm going to play around with quicken this weekend. It seems kind of cute, but there are enough low cost sorceries I think to justify using it, and playing instant speed cantrips to trigger mentor/prowess is valuable. Probably won't be great but still.
the milling is random unless you set it up so it's irrelevant. Not including top deck setup, it might as well put cards from the bottom of your library in your gy and the effect would be EXACTLY the same
This deck is super interesting to me and lots of fun. I have been testing around with this list the last few days, and so far I really like it. I'm not sure about lingering souls and the sideboard is a mess, but overall I think its a pretty fun deck. If I take out souls, I'd probably add 2 more delver of secrets. Its a great turn 1 play here, as it starts the pressure and keeps the opponent punching off their heels early in the game. It is usually enough to allow a safe monastery mentor casting. Myth realized is another card I am unsure of. It is great early game and can grow really fast, it dodges sorcery speed removal for the most part and is a great mana dump later. Late game; however, it is not so good. If I've boarded in Liliana its a no brainer discard most of the time if I need to plus her. definitely worth more testing though.
Any thoughts on this list? I'd like to get it where I am comfortable with it before I start spending the money on the cards I don't have (been testing on cockatrice).
Very interesting! I think you can cut 2 lands (from 22 to 20)when you play full sets of Probe and Bauble, like Patrick Chapin played 19 lands with a similar curve (he had Thought Scour in addition, though). I'd probably switch those lands with some more removal spells. Both Slaughter Pact and Zealous Persecution is great with the Monastery Mentor plan, and Murderous Cut is also great here. You can also consider adding some Thought Scour and switching out Myth Realized with some more delve creatures (Tasigur or Gurmag Angler), which is great with Probe/Bauble too and often come down turn 2. I imagine the mana cost to activate Myth Realized will be a real setback for that creature's effectiveness.
I've tested that list out a little bit, and it seems a bit finicky. Some starts are just crazy, ather times it gets a bit durdly. I think I'll trim the lands one at a time and see how it feels at 21 and 20.
Murderous cut is something I have tested a little and it is pretty good. I've gone down a bauble and a spell snare and tried one cut and one smother and that seems good. I'm still a little stuck on myth realized. It can easily get to 7/7 and more by turn 3-4 and that is huge, but it is kinda dead later. Might swap them for 2 Tasigur or angler. And I still don't like lingering souls much. I just might not by a lingering souls type of guy I guess.
I really don't understand why this deck doesn't have a ton of hype right now. It's doing quite well, has a lot of tools needed to succeed, and is innovative enough that it should be attracting attention. I wrote an article about it over the weekend that players here should find interesting:
My big takeaways are that a) this deck is a real rising star from a statistical standpoint and b) it legitimately has strong cards for the metagame. Mentor himself is the real deal and I think this deck has a lot of potential for improvement in the coming months.
I really don't understand why this deck doesn't have a ton of hype right now. It's doing quite well, has a lot of tools needed to succeed, and is innovative enough that it should be attracting attention. I wrote an article about it over the weekend that players here should find interesting:
My big takeaways are that a) this deck is a real rising star from a statistical standpoint and b) it legitimately has strong cards for the metagame. Mentor himself is the real deal and I think this deck has a lot of potential for improvement in the coming months.
I personally would like this deck a lot more if Dig Through Time was still legal.
And I´d like this deck more if it wouldnt look like a modified version of tokens
It's really a totally different deck, both in composition and playstyle. Tokens doesn't use Tas, Snapcaster, or Mentor (at least not consistently, for the last one). Esper Midrange doesn't use Virtue, Procession, Alarm, etc. Add things like Scour, Cut, and Tar Pit to the list, and you have two decks that can't be much more different. BW Tokens shares as much with Esper Mentor as it does with Abzan, to be honest.
I really don't understand why this deck doesn't have a ton of hype right now. It's doing quite well, has a lot of tools needed to succeed, and is innovative enough that it should be attracting attention. I wrote an article about it over the weekend that players here should find interesting:
My big takeaways are that a) this deck is a real rising star from a statistical standpoint and b) it legitimately has strong cards for the metagame. Mentor himself is the real deal and I think this deck has a lot of potential for improvement in the coming months.
Wow thank you.
I read your article and it's just great. It gives a lot of insight into the deck and how you can change it up a bit.
I do have thought about including some numbers of Geist of Saint Traft too for example but haven't pulled the trigger yet.
And Myth Realized looks of course just like it would fit into the deck.
People should be made aware of this deck existing and everybody who has interest or has some doubts should just try it out himself. The deck does feel great.
And yes Esper is my favorite shard but I think Im pretty unbiased here. I mean the results speak for themselves.
What about Brimaz? bolt-proof, efficiently makes token... not a replacement of Mentor but maybe a split like 3M/2B ?
And Bauble... really looks cool but... I don't know.... I think it's worth a try. But do the deck need 8 free cantrips?
UWRUWR Delver/Lynx TempoUWR-------UWRUWR Midrange GeistUWR-------UWRUWR Nahiri ControlUWR-------UWRUWR SaheeliUWR
BGRJund / Jund ShadowBGR-------BGWAbzan / Abzan ShadowBGW
Commander (Leviathan/MTGO): UWGeist of Saint TraftUW
BTW: I haven't been testing this much, nor playing since I traded away 80% of my collection towards dual lands at LGS so that I could play Legacy. I will get back on track and focus on Esper Midrange as soon as I can get some card stock back.
Legacy: UW RiP/Helm, UR Sneak and Show
It's also good with Murderous Cut.
And most importantly you are running 4 Snapcaster Mages. Doesn't hurt the get him a few more targets.
Edit: I'm wondering if main deck counters are even necessary or if it's worth cutting in favor of better action, and siding in to a counter plan if needed.
Legacy: UW RiP/Helm, UR Sneak and Show
I've been playing this on MTGO for like a week now. Going off Yuuki's list, 22 lands (with 4 Creeping Tar Pit) is pretty ambitions. I've been doing fine at 23 land 3 Tar Pits though.
As for the counters, I like Spell Snare since there's so much stuff being cast at 2 mana in this format it's rarely gonna be a dead card. Plus, a turn 1 discard spell can let you know if you need to keep open mana for spell snare in subsequent turns or if you can tap out. Remand is awful in this deck though. I cut it and never looked back.
Mishra's Bauble + gitaxian probe are really strong with Monastery Mentor.
And what about Brimaz in those lists?
I wanted to built a Grixis delver deck but now.. i'm not sure anymore^^
What are the advantages of this deck over a grixis with lot of 2 for 1 ?
Legacy: UW RiP/Helm, UR Sneak and Show
4 mishra's bauble
creature
2 delver of secrets
4 monastery mentor
2 snapcaster mage
2 tasigur, the golden fang
enchantment
2 myth realized
2 mana leak
3 spell snare
4 path to exile
sorcery
4 gitaxian probe
4 inquisition of kozilek
2 lingering souls
3 serum visions
3 creeping tar pit
2 darkslick shores
2 flooded strand
3 glacial fortress
2 godless shrine
2 hallowed fountain
1 island
1 isolated chapel
1 plains
3 polluted delta
1 swamp
1 watery grave
2 liliana of the veil
2 pithing needle
1 detention sphere
2 disenchant
2 dismember
3 remand
3 thoughtseize
This deck is super interesting to me and lots of fun. I have been testing around with this list the last few days, and so far I really like it. I'm not sure about lingering souls and the sideboard is a mess, but overall I think its a pretty fun deck. If I take out souls, I'd probably add 2 more delver of secrets. Its a great turn 1 play here, as it starts the pressure and keeps the opponent punching off their heels early in the game. It is usually enough to allow a safe monastery mentor casting. Myth realized is another card I am unsure of. It is great early game and can grow really fast, it dodges sorcery speed removal for the most part and is a great mana dump later. Late game; however, it is not so good. If I've boarded in Liliana its a no brainer discard most of the time if I need to plus her. definitely worth more testing though.
Any thoughts on this list? I'd like to get it where I am comfortable with it before I start spending the money on the cards I don't have (been testing on cockatrice).
-2 myth +2 souls for sure
eventually -2 Bauble +2 delver and -1 spell snare +1 removal
To be able to play Tasigur efficiently, you will probably need some Thoughts scour, may be.
the milling is random unless you set it up so it's irrelevant. Not including top deck setup, it might as well put cards from the bottom of your library in your gy and the effect would be EXACTLY the same
Very interesting! I think you can cut 2 lands (from 22 to 20)when you play full sets of Probe and Bauble, like Patrick Chapin played 19 lands with a similar curve (he had Thought Scour in addition, though). I'd probably switch those lands with some more removal spells. Both Slaughter Pact and Zealous Persecution is great with the Monastery Mentor plan, and Murderous Cut is also great here. You can also consider adding some Thought Scour and switching out Myth Realized with some more delve creatures (Tasigur or Gurmag Angler), which is great with Probe/Bauble too and often come down turn 2. I imagine the mana cost to activate Myth Realized will be a real setback for that creature's effectiveness.
UWRUWR Delver/Lynx TempoUWR-------UWRUWR Midrange GeistUWR-------UWRUWR Nahiri ControlUWR-------UWRUWR SaheeliUWR
BGRJund / Jund ShadowBGR-------BGWAbzan / Abzan ShadowBGW
Commander (Leviathan/MTGO): UWGeist of Saint TraftUW
Murderous cut is something I have tested a little and it is pretty good. I've gone down a bauble and a spell snare and tried one cut and one smother and that seems good. I'm still a little stuck on myth realized. It can easily get to 7/7 and more by turn 3-4 and that is huge, but it is kinda dead later. Might swap them for 2 Tasigur or angler. And I still don't like lingering souls much. I just might not by a lingering souls type of guy I guess.
http://modernnexus.com/rising-deck-alert-esper-mentor-midrange/
My big takeaways are that a) this deck is a real rising star from a statistical standpoint and b) it legitimately has strong cards for the metagame. Mentor himself is the real deal and I think this deck has a lot of potential for improvement in the coming months.
I personally would like this deck a lot more if Dig Through Time was still legal.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
It's really a totally different deck, both in composition and playstyle. Tokens doesn't use Tas, Snapcaster, or Mentor (at least not consistently, for the last one). Esper Midrange doesn't use Virtue, Procession, Alarm, etc. Add things like Scour, Cut, and Tar Pit to the list, and you have two decks that can't be much more different. BW Tokens shares as much with Esper Mentor as it does with Abzan, to be honest.
Wow thank you.
I read your article and it's just great. It gives a lot of insight into the deck and how you can change it up a bit.
I do have thought about including some numbers of Geist of Saint Traft too for example but haven't pulled the trigger yet.
And Myth Realized looks of course just like it would fit into the deck.
People should be made aware of this deck existing and everybody who has interest or has some doubts should just try it out himself. The deck does feel great.
And yes Esper is my favorite shard but I think Im pretty unbiased here. I mean the results speak for themselves.
And Bauble... really looks cool but... I don't know.... I think it's worth a try. But do the deck need 8 free cantrips?
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=82042
Legacy: UW RiP/Helm, UR Sneak and Show