in sultai, grave titan is about the nastiest thing you can drop against them. Even if they kill it you get enough tokens to trade with an entire lingering souls. It's almost a 3 for 1 on its own, and it WILL trade with just about any threat in the format. If you don't have access to black, I tend to run with Elspeth, Sun's Champion. If you don't have black or white, you're probably in trouble, but a third-tier answer would probably be inferno titan (wipes souls, 2 turn clock). If you're playing U/G, just combo out already, because you've got no reason to play UG midrange. Or just hardcast an eldrazi or something.
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Yes, I am a local area mod. WELP. GOOD LIFE CHANGES ALL HAPPEN AT ONCE AND SOME ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE
Primary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
Has anyone here had much experience playing against the WUR midrange/control decks? I thought the matchup seemed ok on paper, but struggled with it the couple times I've played against it. They play a long game that is probably even better than ours thanks to sphinx's rev. This could be a slanted opinion, so I thought I would ask.
It's the reason I've often said that the sultai deck isn't actually a control deck--it's a controlling midrange deck, which is nuanced but specific. Yes, sultai can grind out long games, and yes, it plays very reactively. However, it lacks the traditional power of control--inevitability. Unlike pretty much every other midrange shell in modern, it's started to incorporate raw card advantage into its plan via cryptic command, jace AOT, and damnations, even compulsive research. However, at its heart, it still doesn't have the raw inevitability of a card like sphinx's revelation. Even though it has card advantage to improve its ability to grind, it's still relying on point discard and cheap beatsticks, like tarmogoyf, as part of its core strategy. Even though these cards are extremely powerful, they don't scale into the late game in the same way as cards like sphinx's revelation. From the perspective of an Esper player, I've found sultai to be among the easiest decks in the format to crush into oblivion--because the sultai deck is trying too hard to play our game, and doesn't have enough of the proactive elements to push through the traditional gameplans that allow midrange decks like abzan to take matches off control. Yet, it looks silly when their compulsive research and jace, AOT's match up against sphinx's revelations, celestial colonnade, and esper charm.
Don't hear this as me saying that sultai is bad--it appears to me to be quite strongly positioned in the current metagame, better so than esper. But it's not on the back of being a control deck--it's on the back of the thoughtseize/tarmogoyf/abrupt decay backbone. As such, it's going to have a hard time against anything that goes over the top of the traditional attrition gameplan of grinding out 1 for 1's--especially cards like Sphinx's Revelation that break card parity to such an extreme level. I've never lost a game in modern against midrange when I've cast a sphinx's revelation for five or more. Even when down a few cards, there's no tool in the sultai wheelhouse that can overcome that sort of raw power, because to get that raw power you have to give up the early game efficiency that is the hallmark of the BGx shell.
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Yes, I am a local area mod. WELP. GOOD LIFE CHANGES ALL HAPPEN AT ONCE AND SOME ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE
Primary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
Sure, but when you're playing blue sun's zenith instead of sphinx's revelation, Damnation instead of supreme verdict, and dismember instead of path to exile, you have to start asking yourself if you're just playing a worse version of a "bad" deck (esper) instead of a variant of a "good" deck (abzan midrange or jund). I don't disagree that BSZ fills that particular hole in the sultai strategy, but then you're literally trying to span the entire range of "TOTY-->goyf to the turn four wrath you, turn five play a walker with removal up, turn 6 start drawing cards gameplan. That feels like you're spread far too thinly to have the deck be consistent.
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Yes, I am a local area mod. WELP. GOOD LIFE CHANGES ALL HAPPEN AT ONCE AND SOME ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE
Primary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
Sure, but when you're playing blue sun's zenith instead of sphinx's revelation, Damnation instead of supreme verdict, and dismember instead of path to exile, you have to start asking yourself if you're just playing a worse version of a "bad" deck (esper) instead of a variant of a "good" deck (abzan midrange or jund). I don't disagree that BSZ fills that particular hole in the sultai strategy, but then you're literally trying to span the entire range of "TOTY-;goyf to the turn four wrath you, turn five play a walker with removal up, turn 6 start drawing cards gameplan. That feels like you're spread far too thinly to have the deck be consistent.
100% agree, honestly every list posted here fits a more Sultai Midrange theme.
I guess I don't understand, running goyf, tasigur, tombstalker etc in a "Control" deck. The thread title is completely off in my opinion and it makes @amalek0's comment extremely fitting.
You already play plenty of removal to control the board, I'd max out on Abrupt Decay and run atleast 2x Damnation. If you want to run a creature, restrict it to Vendilion Clique, Snapcaster Mage or something like Ætherling.
Also, has Empty the Pits been tested, I think it could work with the spells and fetchland count, I'd imagine Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth makes it easier to cast. Ten cards in the yard gives you 10 power to attack with on your turn; against what should be an empty board on the opponents side.
Not saying the lists posted here aren't viable, just don't think they are control.
When I think Sultai Control, I imagine this, although its a different format, the concept is the same, manlands, planeswalkers, removal and inevitability: http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=8314&d=247812&f=LE
Sure, but when you're playing blue sun's zenith instead of sphinx's revelation, Damnation instead of supreme verdict, and dismember instead of path to exile, you have to start asking yourself if you're just playing a worse version of a "bad" deck (esper) instead of a variant of a "good" deck (abzan midrange or jund). I don't disagree that BSZ fills that particular hole in the sultai strategy, but then you're literally trying to span the entire range of "TOTY-;goyf to the turn four wrath you, turn five play a walker with removal up, turn 6 start drawing cards gameplan. That feels like you're spread far too thinly to have the deck be consistent.
100% agree, honestly every list posted here fits a more Sultai Midrange theme.
I guess I don't understand, running goyf, tasigur, tombstalker etc in a "Control" deck. The thread title is completely off in my opinion and it makes @amalek0's comment extremely fitting.
You already play plenty of removal to control the board, I'd max out on Abrupt Decay and run atleast 2x Damnation. If you want to run a creature, restrict it to Vendilion Clique, Snapcaster Mage or something like Ætherling.
Also, has Empty the Pits been tested, I think it could work with the spells and fetchland count, I'd imagine Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth makes it easier to cast. Ten cards in the yard gives you 10 power to attack with on your turn; against what should be an empty board on the opponents side.
Not saying the lists posted here aren't viable, just don't think they are control.
I'm with you and everyone else who believes the "control" label is a bit of a misnomer. There is no reason people can't develop a true BUG control list, but the ones built in the Fabiano vein should be considered midrange.
4 serum visions 3 anticipate is too much "air" without some raw card draw means you'll spend too much time digging through cantrips instead of interacting.
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Yes, I am a local area mod. WELP. GOOD LIFE CHANGES ALL HAPPEN AT ONCE AND SOME ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE
Primary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
I am not sure that it is worth it to play green if you cut the Tarmogoyfs. If you play BUG, you get Abrupt Decay, Maelstrom Pulse/Sultai Charm, and Kiora (sort of, she is pretty bad in Modern). Esper gets Path to Exile, Esper Charm, Supreme Verdict, Gideon Jura, and much better sideboard cards. Why would you play this kind of BUG deck over Esper?
I've been toying with a BUG teachings brew--the big draw to me was the option to play a pile of mainboard targeted discard and alchemist's refuge which allows you to fire it off in their draw step to time walk them. It also allows you to try and slam swagtusk, kiora, or jace/tamiyo at instant speed, making it easier to play around decks like twin.
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Yes, I am a local area mod. WELP. GOOD LIFE CHANGES ALL HAPPEN AT ONCE AND SOME ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE
Primary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
4 serum visions 3 anticipate is too much "air" without some raw card draw means you'll spend too much time digging through cantrips instead of interacting.
I am not sure that it is worth it to play green if you cut the Tarmogoyfs. If you play BUG, you get Abrupt Decay, Maelstrom Pulse/Sultai Charm, and Kiora (sort of, she is pretty bad in Modern). Esper gets Path to Exile, Esper Charm, Supreme Verdict, Gideon Jura, and much better sideboard cards. Why would you play this kind of BUG deck over Esper?
Honestly I wouldn't, just wanted to give an idea of what I thought Sultai Control deck would look like.
If I played a BUG variant in modern it would be more aggro-ish:
This is a rough list, and any time I have teachings in my hand I have a "tuning list" of about 7-8 other cards I have under consideration for the mainboard, and I make note of when I want those instead of what I've already listed. Obviously, the list is completely not streamlined and is thoroughly fun-of heavy, since the only numbers I'm sure about are 3 teachings, 3 wraths with that split, and that I want at least three snapcasters, three abrupt decays, and three cryptics.
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Yes, I am a local area mod. WELP. GOOD LIFE CHANGES ALL HAPPEN AT ONCE AND SOME ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE
Primary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
What I'm messing around with is this: This is a rough list, and any time I have teachings in my hand I have a "tuning list" of about 7-8 other cards I have under consideration for the mainboard, and I make note of when I want those instead of what I've already listed. Obviously, the list is completely not streamlined and is thoroughly fun-of heavy, since the only numbers I'm sure about are 3 teachings, 3 wraths with that split, and that I want at least three snapcasters, three abrupt decays, and three cryptics.
Eh, most of your list consists of instants so I don't see how you are abusing Alchemist's Refuge.
Also, I think Æther Vial does a better job of giving creatures "flash".
So then you are left with Planeswalkers, which you can't activate on your opponents turn.
Maybe you can abuse Alchemist's Refuge with:
If you are playing the control game right, you've made 7-8 land drops, you should have a point at which you can tapout EOT (opponents) turn, activate Refuge and: Mind Spring: Draw 3 - 4 cards. Profane Command: Drain 3-4 life, Return Snapcaster Mage or Vendilion Clique to the battlefield, give a creature -3/-3 or -4/-4. Beacon of Creation: Get 4-5 tokens if 4-5 of you're lands are forest (Overgrown Tomb, Breeding Pool etc). The reshuffle effect of this card is pretty good aswell.
Basically if any of the above cards were instants they would be that much more playable.
Again, just ideas.
I actually do like the approach. This is the only card I feel that justifies taking out goyfs, tasigur etc and making a pure Sultai Control deck with Snapcasters and Vendilion Cliques.
what's important is that it allows instant-speed DISCARD. 4 mana instead of 1 to thoughtseize their draw step is pretty good. Instant speed wraths are also pretty good at killing manlands. Sure, you don't get to activate planeswalkers at instant speed, but it allows you to cast and fight over them on your opponents turn instead of on your own turn, which means it's more reasonable against twin and other combo decks.
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Yes, I am a local area mod. WELP. GOOD LIFE CHANGES ALL HAPPEN AT ONCE AND SOME ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE
Primary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
I've been tinkering with something in a similar vein but with loam engine and MD grave titan(s) that started out as empty the pits. Even tried sakura tribe elder for a short test run. BUG feels like its almost there but not quite.. I've been speculating on the impact on BUG if the next spoilers included say baleful strix. Or maybe even shardless or both hehe but thats probably a pipe dream.
I understand the reservations playing discard and counters together, but I think it works great with this deck. IMO 1st turn IoK is your ideal play as you're able to craft the next several turns and decide if you want to play a proactive or reactive game.
I've been testing with a planeswalker suite of 2x Jace, Architect of Thought and 1x Tamiyo, the Moon Sage and have had solid results so far. Jace is just too good to only run 1 copy, especially when you are in top-deck mode and having it net +1 cards is huge. Tamiyo may seem like an odd choice, but her +1 can serve both a controlling or aggressive role and also is a nice answer to something the deck has a problem with: manlands. Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver is a bit of a pet card of mine, but I just don't think it proves that useful in many matchups other than Abzan and maybe Jund.
I think the list just feels very odd... cant describe it but there are some nuances I just dislike..
Honestly, I think the deck is better off by playing in a tapout control manner. Therefore I think we either have to decide do you went to play counters or do you want discard. I really hate playing both. So for tapping out discard would be the coice.
Is there somebody that feels the same lately?
I agree that these colors wants to play tapout. However I feel the deck can and does want to pull off a mix of targeted discard and counter magic. Going lite on the counters is better IMO. Think of them like stifles.. they allow you to represent counters and once someone gets caught by 1 they will play around them for the rest of the match. I'm actually feeling that mana leak might be the best counter in this particular deck (as opposed to say esper control) since its more aggressive and forces them to play on curve a little more than other 'true' control decks do.
Ashiok is hit or miss. Anything aggro OTP and he/she/it owns pretty hard. I have limited decks to test against though so it might be worse or better than what I see idk. Jace otoh is boss, always happy to see that card.
Yes, I am a local area mod.WELP. GOOD LIFE CHANGES ALL HAPPEN AT ONCE AND SOME ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVEPrimary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
Don't hear this as me saying that sultai is bad--it appears to me to be quite strongly positioned in the current metagame, better so than esper. But it's not on the back of being a control deck--it's on the back of the thoughtseize/tarmogoyf/abrupt decay backbone. As such, it's going to have a hard time against anything that goes over the top of the traditional attrition gameplan of grinding out 1 for 1's--especially cards like Sphinx's Revelation that break card parity to such an extreme level. I've never lost a game in modern against midrange when I've cast a sphinx's revelation for five or more. Even when down a few cards, there's no tool in the sultai wheelhouse that can overcome that sort of raw power, because to get that raw power you have to give up the early game efficiency that is the hallmark of the BGx shell.
Yes, I am a local area mod.WELP. GOOD LIFE CHANGES ALL HAPPEN AT ONCE AND SOME ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVEPrimary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
Yes, I am a local area mod.WELP. GOOD LIFE CHANGES ALL HAPPEN AT ONCE AND SOME ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVEPrimary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
I guess I don't understand, running goyf, tasigur, tombstalker etc in a "Control" deck. The thread title is completely off in my opinion and it makes @amalek0's comment extremely fitting.
So the question becomes, what control elements are viable in green besides removal?
You guys ever think of going more on the planeswalker route and no creatures:
Nissa, Worldwaker
Garruk Relentless
Kiora, the Crashing Wave
You already play plenty of removal to control the board, I'd max out on Abrupt Decay and run atleast 2x Damnation. If you want to run a creature, restrict it to Vendilion Clique, Snapcaster Mage or something like Ætherling.
Also, has Empty the Pits been tested, I think it could work with the spells and fetchland count, I'd imagine Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth makes it easier to cast. Ten cards in the yard gives you 10 power to attack with on your turn; against what should be an empty board on the opponents side.
Not saying the lists posted here aren't viable, just don't think they are control.
When I think Sultai Control, I imagine this, although its a different format, the concept is the same, manlands, planeswalkers, removal and inevitability: http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=8314&d=247812&f=LE
Twitch: gamerchamp
Modern: UGrand Architect, UBTezzeret Control, UBWRG Bridge From Below (Dredge)
Legacy: UWGTrue-Name Bant
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
14 Mixture of Shocklands, Basics, etc
Creatures (5)
4 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique
Spells (26)
4 Serum Visions
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Mana Leak
3 Anticipate
2 Damnation
2 Cryptic Command
2 Spell Snare
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Empty The Pits
2 Jace, Architect of Thought
1 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
1 Kiora, the Crashing Wave
1 Negate
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Damnation
12 other
Twitch: gamerchamp
Modern: UGrand Architect, UBTezzeret Control, UBWRG Bridge From Below (Dredge)
Legacy: UWGTrue-Name Bant
Yes, I am a local area mod.WELP. GOOD LIFE CHANGES ALL HAPPEN AT ONCE AND SOME ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVEPrimary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
I am not sure that it is worth it to play green if you cut the Tarmogoyfs. If you play BUG, you get Abrupt Decay, Maelstrom Pulse/Sultai Charm, and Kiora (sort of, she is pretty bad in Modern). Esper gets Path to Exile, Esper Charm, Supreme Verdict, Gideon Jura, and much better sideboard cards. Why would you play this kind of BUG deck over Esper?
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Yes, I am a local area mod.WELP. GOOD LIFE CHANGES ALL HAPPEN AT ONCE AND SOME ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVEPrimary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
Serum Vision is really there to make sure we hit land drops.
-3 Anticipate
+2 Sultai Charm
+1 Ætherling
Sultai Charm gives more interaction and card draw as well.
Ætherling provides another wincon.
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
14 Mixture of Shocklands, Basics, etc
Creatures (6)
4 Snapcaster Mage
1 Ætherling
1 Vendilion Clique
Spells (25)
4 Serum Visions
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Mana Leak
2 Sultai Charm
2 Damnation
2 Cryptic Command
2 Spell Snare
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Empty The Pits
2 Jace, Architect of Thought
1 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
1 Kiora, the Crashing Wave
1 Negate
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Damnation
12 other
Twitch: gamerchamp
Modern: UGrand Architect, UBTezzeret Control, UBWRG Bridge From Below (Dredge)
Legacy: UWGTrue-Name Bant
Honestly I wouldn't, just wanted to give an idea of what I thought Sultai Control deck would look like.
If I played a BUG variant in modern it would be more aggro-ish:
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Dark Confidant
3 Courser of Kruphix
3 Kitchen Finks
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Serum Visions
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Disfigure/Vapor Snag/Smother
2 Spell Snare
2 Spell Pierce
Twitch: gamerchamp
Modern: UGrand Architect, UBTezzeret Control, UBWRG Bridge From Below (Dredge)
Legacy: UWGTrue-Name Bant
3 alchemist's refuge
3 Mystical Teachings
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Remand
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Dismember
1 Pact of Negation
1 Spell Snare
1 Logic Knot
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Consume the Meek
2 Damnation
1 Kiora, the Crashing Wave
1 Tamiyo, the Moon Sage
3 Cryptic Command
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
2 Thragtusk
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
This is a rough list, and any time I have teachings in my hand I have a "tuning list" of about 7-8 other cards I have under consideration for the mainboard, and I make note of when I want those instead of what I've already listed. Obviously, the list is completely not streamlined and is thoroughly fun-of heavy, since the only numbers I'm sure about are 3 teachings, 3 wraths with that split, and that I want at least three snapcasters, three abrupt decays, and three cryptics.
Yes, I am a local area mod.WELP. GOOD LIFE CHANGES ALL HAPPEN AT ONCE AND SOME ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVEPrimary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
Eh, most of your list consists of instants so I don't see how you are abusing Alchemist's Refuge.
Also, I think Æther Vial does a better job of giving creatures "flash".
So then you are left with Planeswalkers, which you can't activate on your opponents turn.
Maybe you can abuse Alchemist's Refuge with:
If you are playing the control game right, you've made 7-8 land drops, you should have a point at which you can tapout EOT (opponents) turn, activate Refuge and:
Mind Spring: Draw 3 - 4 cards.
Profane Command: Drain 3-4 life, Return Snapcaster Mage or Vendilion Clique to the battlefield, give a creature -3/-3 or -4/-4.
Beacon of Creation: Get 4-5 tokens if 4-5 of you're lands are forest (Overgrown Tomb, Breeding Pool etc). The reshuffle effect of this card is pretty good aswell.
Basically if any of the above cards were instants they would be that much more playable.
Again, just ideas.
I actually do like the approach. This is the only card I feel that justifies taking out goyfs, tasigur etc and making a pure Sultai Control deck with Snapcasters and Vendilion Cliques.
Twitch: gamerchamp
Modern: UGrand Architect, UBTezzeret Control, UBWRG Bridge From Below (Dredge)
Legacy: UWGTrue-Name Bant
Yes, I am a local area mod.WELP. GOOD LIFE CHANGES ALL HAPPEN AT ONCE AND SOME ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVEPrimary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
Twitch: gamerchamp
Modern: UGrand Architect, UBTezzeret Control, UBWRG Bridge From Below (Dredge)
Legacy: UWGTrue-Name Bant
I've been testing with a planeswalker suite of 2x Jace, Architect of Thought and 1x Tamiyo, the Moon Sage and have had solid results so far. Jace is just too good to only run 1 copy, especially when you are in top-deck mode and having it net +1 cards is huge. Tamiyo may seem like an odd choice, but her +1 can serve both a controlling or aggressive role and also is a nice answer to something the deck has a problem with: manlands. Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver is a bit of a pet card of mine, but I just don't think it proves that useful in many matchups other than Abzan and maybe Jund.
Legacy
GWREnchantressGWR
WXWStaxWXW
GXWMaverickGXW
I agree that these colors wants to play tapout. However I feel the deck can and does want to pull off a mix of targeted discard and counter magic. Going lite on the counters is better IMO. Think of them like stifles.. they allow you to represent counters and once someone gets caught by 1 they will play around them for the rest of the match. I'm actually feeling that mana leak might be the best counter in this particular deck (as opposed to say esper control) since its more aggressive and forces them to play on curve a little more than other 'true' control decks do.
Ashiok is hit or miss. Anything aggro OTP and he/she/it owns pretty hard. I have limited decks to test against though so it might be worse or better than what I see idk. Jace otoh is boss, always happy to see that card.