Cryptic I'm a bit meh on in 3 colours where blue isnt one of the primary. I've been playing around with it, but the triple blue if a mana dork is dead is rough.
I am going to play around with Ojutai's Command instead, see how that goes.
The main split of versions I was testing at the very start were essentially Bant Midrange and 4-color Zoo (Nacatl, Geopede, Lynx). Both do a very good job of being exactly what the base shell is supposed to be until you drop Retreat and oneshot them.
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Slowly breaking.
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
Its pretty straightforward, Zoo creatures, the LotL/Vortex end game and board control package with a chance at the combo win. Stubborn Denial might make sense in the Spell Snare slot. Courser could be a one of instead of two.
Probably 24 Land because there are a number of utility lands I want to play, though I have made a very similar deck to this work on 22 before. The ideal manabase is going to need the new dual lands in some number I believe and I need to work on it; I'd like to make it work on 22 land.
The last few slots I haven't decided on; some combination of charms, commands and Qasali Pridemage maybe. I like decks that attack from multiple angles in formats like Modern and I like Negate a lot at the moment. I'm a little distressed that almost everything in the deck is graveyard dependent; I'd really look at evasive non-graveyard dependent threats as part of the sideboard plan.
Because 2 is better than 3, and it can be played, or replayed, any turn and come back just as strong as it would have been. I've tried other cards to replace Goyf, and its just not going to happen, its too efficient.
EDIT: Now, do you even need a Goyf anyway, I dont know, depends on the critical mass of creatures you want to bring out.
why play Tarmogoyf, the wallet-muncher, when you could play undergrowth champion with its landfall? Notice the counters are permanent and not UEoT.
Tarmogoyf is resilient (typically doesn't die to Bolt) in ways Undergrowth Champion isn't. I honestly really like the UC, its my kind of card, but the problem is it is very similar to Knight of the Reliquary and Countryside Crusher in that its 3 mana invested in a card that its very possible will be removed for 1-2 mana. That doesn't make them bad, but I do feel like there are a limited number of those cards you can play in one deck unless you're going to cheat ala Collected Company.
Its why I like Molten Vortex, it hits from a completely different angle and is a one mana spell to try to resolve.
I agree you could make this deck without Goyf. My first take on this deck, and my preferred playing style, is aggression with counters/disruption for answers so I am reaching for the best beaters in the colors which are Nacatl and Goyf; there are certainly other shells this could be successful in.
Adding goyf's makes the deck playable to less people; a landfall deck needs landfall creatures. This list looks strong to me. Simic Charm is power here. I wish there was space for Halimar Depths. So too, would i love to see Adventuring Gear get some real play.
I see zero reasons not to run lotus cobra... but, i am very Johnny. To me card draw, dredge and scry are largely the same. Get access; exploit access; win. If the cards scream combo; make combo. Timmy's will undoubtedly see things differently; that's fine.
Pretty certain that Goyf actually aint that great in this deck, since you can only reliably put 3 cardtypes in the gyard of your own accord, plus the deck doesnt need more big beatsticks
Also steppe lynx seems a far superior inclusion then nacatl.
Dont forget that with a KotR in play the lynx can become a 6/7 with a forest and plains, and 8/9 with a fetch.
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Give credit, where credit is due. Give irony and sarcasm, when ignorance and stupidity is found. The whip is kept for special occasions
The Internet was a revelation to me, I never imagined there are so many idiots on this planet.
@Lootsmith I agree Simic Charm is very good. I also think Lotus Cobra is a consideration. As for accessibility because of Tarmogoyf, I just don't see it being relevant. The object is to make the best deck, from there it can be tinkered with if some cards aren't available, but there's no reason to do so at the front end of the process. Some people on the board own Goyfs.
frontend hundreds of dollars or backend hundreds of dollars because you have them? The group of havenot's far exceeds the group of have's; egalitarian doctrine. The action to be performed should be performed by the fewest people possible. If you have goyf's and would like to run them instead of a card that synergizes with the stratagem, do so.
Undergrowth Champion is like a worse Steppe Lynx in this deck for three mana, dies to bolt often enough that you're never playing it till you can play it for 3 than make your land drop for turn, and then it's STILL just a 3/3. Sure it gets bigger with the combo but Steppe Lynx does that at 1 mana as does Knight of the reliquary which is 1 half of the combo so an auto include already. Maybe at cmc 2 undergrowth champion would be playable here but even than tarmogoyf would be the more reliable fatty. Also Simic Charm is cute at best, and 4 of them??? that could be actual removal or something. Lotus cobra could easily be Noble hierarch as a turn 1 dork is exactly what you want in this deck, still comboing with fetches + retreat to coralhelm to yield extra untap triggers targeting your dork to net extra mana while using said turn one dork to accelerate into the combo as early as turn 3.
The tango lands however are interesting, If we end up with enough room in the list I could see going up to a critical mass of 12 fetchlands to make sure we can reliably fetch out 2 basics so when we combo off we're only losing life from fetch lands when we go off. That manabase almost certainly disqualifies Wild Nacatl from the list however, as fetching on turn 2 into an red/white tango land to get her up to a 3/3 means you aren't getting to play a 2 drop. Then again maybe all we'd need is to add 1 Sacred Foundry to the list just to make it work. I believe some balance between them could be struck because once retreat is out we can knight out the 2 basics necessary to set up the tango lands easy that sac the third land for fetch into tango until you've cycled through them all. Drawing an opener with only tangolands would be a nightmare though as suddenly you're playing with guildgates.... There are many lines to consider here. Too many fetches and not enough targets for them means you can't effectively cycle through your manabase as well so going to 12 may be excessive.
Please post your testing lists when you feel comfortable with them guys, I'd like to draw upon our collective experience here.
That said for budget reasons I'm probably never playing tarmogoyf, I'm merely trying to point out that if you're going to dedicate 4 slots of the deck to what essentially amounts to a beater, tarmogoyf would be a better choice than undergrowth champion 90% of the time, and for 1 mana less. We're trying to identify the best possible most optimal list here, and price be damned at the moment. Budget comes into play when we each set out to build it for ourselves. I'm quite partial to Geist of Saint Traft, and getting to play something that's hexproof and guaranteed to swing for 6, 4 of which is often unblockable, seems WAY better than Undergrowth champion. The Ghost is coming in as soon as you can play it everytime and NEVER dies to Lightning Bolt, Path to Exile, or Terminate. Hell, with Noble Hierarch in the list he's often swinging for 7! Plus Retreat is going to be tapping down blockers everywhere when you aren't comboing off with it making Geist even better. That'd be my personal pick in place of Undergrowth Champion.
Also I'm honestly winning a lot of games just by getting Knight of the Reliquary generally big while tapping down blockers to get in with the team instead of truly cycling through the whole deck to make Knight get to a 20/20 with trample of Kessig Wolf Run, though I have turn 3'd people occasionally. My most common turn 4 kill is a turn 1 dork, turn 2 Geist of Saint Traft, turn 3 swing with the ghost, play Knight of the reliquary, turn 4 drop Retreat to Coralhelm, cycling enough to get knight lethal, tap down blockers and swing in for the kill. Steppe Lynx is killer so far as well.
frontend hundreds of dollars or backend hundreds of dollars because you have them? The group of havenot's far exceeds the group of have's; egalitarian doctrine. The action to be performed should be performed by the fewest people possible. If you have goyf's and would like to run them instead of a card that synergizes with the stratagem, do so.
I'm not sure how this has devolved into The Man keeping down The Masses. Tarmogoyf is legal in the format, it shouldn't be shocking people include it in decks. If you don't want to use him, throw in Flinthoof Boar of Beater X of your choice. Whether Goyf is affordable or not isn't the purpose of the thread.
What about the new leopard ? 1/1 for one green with landfall
Btw. Really nice idea and looking forwards to see it in the end. Hoping that someone makes a list that included hedron craps, stepped lynx, ruin ghost and maybe even retreat to emiria
Ok so this thread blew up in the last day and I haven't been around long enough to make a good detailed post. I'll update the OP once I get some time and make it a bit more in-depth and inviting to new eyes reading it. For now a couple of things that I've seen reading through this thread:
- This deck IS NOT A PURE COMBO DECK. Look at modern day Twin and see how it operates. This deck has the potential for a worse combo, but better beatdown. This is the same way Abzan Company works, and when it works it works well.
- If you are planning on running Collected Company then your creature count shouldn't really be lower than 25. The hitting percentages just fall off way too fast.
- If you are trying to play cards to dig, play Commune with the Gods. It buffs KotR, and finds both KotR and Retreat all in one card. Things like Idellic Tutor etc... are all bad, and far worse than playing Commune (which won't be played in the long run, I'm calling it).
- The lands are already hurting you a ton when trying to "combo" off. Play some Tango lands to offset this lifeloss. Also when making the manabases try to figure out how to win when you're at 12, or 7 life etc... That is going to be a big part of the deck, and makes deckbuilding really hard for optimally pulling lands out of the deck.
Just a couple of thoughts. The OP will hopefully have everything you need by next week.
Also if someone wants to make a cool banner for the OP, send it to me.
Is Goyf needed? No, but if you are going heavy creature, well, there's a reason its expensive. This deck could be legit, it doesnt have to sit in the budget realm.
The strategy is 'Get the opponent to 0' if that means you swing for a few with Goyf, or Saint Traft, or you rush with Nacatl or combo out and just smash, its all the same. I'm not building a landfall deck, I'm trying to build a Bant control/midrange deck that is on the Twin scale of 'Fair' with BGx/URx like play, while in Bant.
Regarding the Goyf discussion, I have owned a set for years both in paper and online and rarely play them in Bant decks. Unless accompanied by black discard, I don't think it grows to an appropriate size as regularly in Bant, certainly not in Modern and and it's still iffy in Legacy though opposing Sorcery cantrips helps out there.
I agree with having a good solid beat down plan to accompany the combo elements, but Goyf may not fit the bill. I have had good finishes with Bant Conscription, which is similarly a midrange deck with a combo-ish kill, and tested Goyf there on mTGO and not been impressed except when Jund was all over the place.
The tango lands however are interesting, If we end up with enough room in the list I could see going up to a critical mass of 12 fetchlands to make sure we can reliably fetch out 2 basics so when we combo off we're only losing life from fetch lands when we go off. That manabase almost certainly disqualifies Wild Nacatl from the list however, as fetching on turn 2 into an red/white tango land to get her up to a 3/3 means you aren't getting to play a 2 drop. Then again maybe all we'd need is to add 1 Sacred Foundry to the list just to make it work. I believe some balance between them could be struck because once retreat is out we can knight out the 2 basics necessary to set up the tango lands easy that sac the third land for fetch into tango until you've cycled through them all. Drawing an opener with only tangolands would be a nightmare though as suddenly you're playing with guildgates.... There are many lines to consider here. Too many fetches and not enough targets for them means you can't effectively cycle through your manabase as well so going to 12 may be excessive.
I can confirm that Tango lands work well. My happy medium is at 3-5 tangos, 10-12 fetches, and fill out the rest with basics and utility. Your odds of drawing two tangos in your starting 8 (7+1) is 13-4%. Its small enough to be negligible. The only real question when it comes to using this mana base is whether or not you need access to both AA and BB on turn 2. Tango+fetches can't pull that off reasonably. If you can get by on AB till turn three, then tango lands are amazing.
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Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
- Manite
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I am going to play around with Ojutai's Command instead, see how that goes.
Spirits
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
I know where you post.
2 Commune with the Gods
4 Life from the Loam
3 Magmatic Insight
4 Molten Vortex
2 Retreat to Coralhelm
3 Negate
2 Spell Snare
2 Courser of Kruphix
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl
Its pretty straightforward, Zoo creatures, the LotL/Vortex end game and board control package with a chance at the combo win. Stubborn Denial might make sense in the Spell Snare slot. Courser could be a one of instead of two.
Probably 24 Land because there are a number of utility lands I want to play, though I have made a very similar deck to this work on 22 before. The ideal manabase is going to need the new dual lands in some number I believe and I need to work on it; I'd like to make it work on 22 land.
The last few slots I haven't decided on; some combination of charms, commands and Qasali Pridemage maybe. I like decks that attack from multiple angles in formats like Modern and I like Negate a lot at the moment. I'm a little distressed that almost everything in the deck is graveyard dependent; I'd really look at evasive non-graveyard dependent threats as part of the sideboard plan.
EDIT: Now, do you even need a Goyf anyway, I dont know, depends on the critical mass of creatures you want to bring out.
Spirits
Tarmogoyf is resilient (typically doesn't die to Bolt) in ways Undergrowth Champion isn't. I honestly really like the UC, its my kind of card, but the problem is it is very similar to Knight of the Reliquary and Countryside Crusher in that its 3 mana invested in a card that its very possible will be removed for 1-2 mana. That doesn't make them bad, but I do feel like there are a limited number of those cards you can play in one deck unless you're going to cheat ala Collected Company.
Its why I like Molten Vortex, it hits from a completely different angle and is a one mana spell to try to resolve.
I agree you could make this deck without Goyf. My first take on this deck, and my preferred playing style, is aggression with counters/disruption for answers so I am reaching for the best beaters in the colors which are Nacatl and Goyf; there are certainly other shells this could be successful in.
4 Windswept Heath
2 Prairie Stream
2 Hallowed Fountain
2 Canopy Vista
2 Temple Garden
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Soaring Seacliff
1 plains
1 island
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Drift of Phantasms
4 undergrowth champion
4 Steppe Lynx
4 Lotus Cobra
4 path to exile
4 stubborn denial
4 serum visions
Adding goyf's makes the deck playable to less people; a landfall deck needs landfall creatures. This list looks strong to me. Simic Charm is power here. I wish there was space for Halimar Depths. So too, would i love to see Adventuring Gear get some real play.
I see zero reasons not to run lotus cobra... but, i am very Johnny. To me card draw, dredge and scry are largely the same. Get access; exploit access; win. If the cards scream combo; make combo. Timmy's will undoubtedly see things differently; that's fine.
Also steppe lynx seems a far superior inclusion then nacatl.
Dont forget that with a KotR in play the lynx can become a 6/7 with a forest and plains, and 8/9 with a fetch.
Give irony and sarcasm, when ignorance and stupidity is found.
The whip is kept for special occasions
The tango lands however are interesting, If we end up with enough room in the list I could see going up to a critical mass of 12 fetchlands to make sure we can reliably fetch out 2 basics so when we combo off we're only losing life from fetch lands when we go off. That manabase almost certainly disqualifies Wild Nacatl from the list however, as fetching on turn 2 into an red/white tango land to get her up to a 3/3 means you aren't getting to play a 2 drop. Then again maybe all we'd need is to add 1 Sacred Foundry to the list just to make it work. I believe some balance between them could be struck because once retreat is out we can knight out the 2 basics necessary to set up the tango lands easy that sac the third land for fetch into tango until you've cycled through them all. Drawing an opener with only tangolands would be a nightmare though as suddenly you're playing with guildgates.... There are many lines to consider here. Too many fetches and not enough targets for them means you can't effectively cycle through your manabase as well so going to 12 may be excessive.
Please post your testing lists when you feel comfortable with them guys, I'd like to draw upon our collective experience here.
~Modern~
BGURWhiteless Death's ShadowRUGB
GWRUSaheeli BlinkURWG
RGBUGood Ole' DredgeUBGR
~Commander~
URWNarset, Enlightened Time-TravelerWRU
UBRWBreya, Etherium ArchitectWRBU
A Prolific Loser To Blood Moon
~Modern~
BGURWhiteless Death's ShadowRUGB
GWRUSaheeli BlinkURWG
RGBUGood Ole' DredgeUBGR
~Commander~
URWNarset, Enlightened Time-TravelerWRU
UBRWBreya, Etherium ArchitectWRBU
A Prolific Loser To Blood Moon
~Modern~
BGURWhiteless Death's ShadowRUGB
GWRUSaheeli BlinkURWG
RGBUGood Ole' DredgeUBGR
~Commander~
URWNarset, Enlightened Time-TravelerWRU
UBRWBreya, Etherium ArchitectWRBU
A Prolific Loser To Blood Moon
I'm not sure how this has devolved into The Man keeping down The Masses. Tarmogoyf is legal in the format, it shouldn't be shocking people include it in decks. If you don't want to use him, throw in Flinthoof Boar of Beater X of your choice. Whether Goyf is affordable or not isn't the purpose of the thread.
Btw. Really nice idea and looking forwards to see it in the end. Hoping that someone makes a list that included hedron craps, stepped lynx, ruin ghost and maybe even retreat to emiria
- This deck IS NOT A PURE COMBO DECK. Look at modern day Twin and see how it operates. This deck has the potential for a worse combo, but better beatdown. This is the same way Abzan Company works, and when it works it works well.
- If you are planning on running Collected Company then your creature count shouldn't really be lower than 25. The hitting percentages just fall off way too fast.
- If you are trying to play cards to dig, play Commune with the Gods. It buffs KotR, and finds both KotR and Retreat all in one card. Things like Idellic Tutor etc... are all bad, and far worse than playing Commune (which won't be played in the long run, I'm calling it).
- The lands are already hurting you a ton when trying to "combo" off. Play some Tango lands to offset this lifeloss. Also when making the manabases try to figure out how to win when you're at 12, or 7 life etc... That is going to be a big part of the deck, and makes deckbuilding really hard for optimally pulling lands out of the deck.
Just a couple of thoughts. The OP will hopefully have everything you need by next week.
Also if someone wants to make a cool banner for the OP, send it to me.
MTGO/MTGA: Tyclone
My Primers ~ GWx Vizier Company ~ Knightfall ~ RG Eldrazi ~ Green's Sun's Zenith
More Brews ~ Modern Four Horsemen ~ Gitrog Dredge
As to Goyf
We will have the following in the yard, often.
Land
Creatures
Instants
Less often
Sorcery
Enchant
And its not like its just our yard that matters.
Is Goyf needed? No, but if you are going heavy creature, well, there's a reason its expensive. This deck could be legit, it doesnt have to sit in the budget realm.
The strategy is 'Get the opponent to 0' if that means you swing for a few with Goyf, or Saint Traft, or you rush with Nacatl or combo out and just smash, its all the same. I'm not building a landfall deck, I'm trying to build a Bant control/midrange deck that is on the Twin scale of 'Fair' with BGx/URx like play, while in Bant.
Spirits
turn one: fetch for Temple Garden; cast Steppe Lynx
turn two: fetch for Island; cast Simic Charm; attack with 7/8 Steppe Lynx
I don't really think thats cute. Then two turns later you Simic Charm hexproof your Knight of the Reliquary and Retreat to Coralhelm to avoid a removal? Blocker in the way? Simic Charm.
I agree with having a good solid beat down plan to accompany the combo elements, but Goyf may not fit the bill. I have had good finishes with Bant Conscription, which is similarly a midrange deck with a combo-ish kill, and tested Goyf there on mTGO and not been impressed except when Jund was all over the place.
I can confirm that Tango lands work well. My happy medium is at 3-5 tangos, 10-12 fetches, and fill out the rest with basics and utility. Your odds of drawing two tangos in your starting 8 (7+1) is 13-4%. Its small enough to be negligible. The only real question when it comes to using this mana base is whether or not you need access to both AA and BB on turn 2. Tango+fetches can't pull that off reasonably. If you can get by on AB till turn three, then tango lands are amazing.
- Manite