I'm gonna say some pretty heretical things, so please at least hear me out...
...Retreat to Coralhelm sucks right now, and has sucked for a while.
As someone who has been reading the thread sporadically (and hasn't built the deck yet), would you mind elaborating on this? I don't think your wrong, but I'm curious specifically what reasons make Coralhelm weak right now.
In the games I've played it's pretty lackluster, and often times I wished it were something else. With the rise of control and midrange, I don't think a 3 mana enchantment that doesn't affect the board is where you want to be.
From what I've seen, Kelvin Chew has also dropped retreat and he is the biggest pro who plays this deck
I'm in the process of updating the primer since it was kinda neglected for a little while....
The shortlist of things that still need to be fixed:
- Change the 'sample decks' to be more relevant to today's lists
- Update the 'about the deck' section to reflect playing the three distinct styles of decks: Knightfall, Bant Midrange, and Druid-Vizier
- Give all of the cards a proofread, and make their descriptions more concise
- Move Voice & EWit to the maindeck cards, Burrenton & Eidolon & Mirrion Crusader to the SB, and Linvala & Reveillark to the others.
My question to the thread is, what cards have I missed and should be added/removed? Also, I write most of this in notepad so please point out any grammar/spelling stuff I missed.
Cards to be removed:
sideboard: Spell Snare will not be a good sideboard card because it is too narrow Rest in Peace is great in other decks, but it shrinks Knight of the Reliquary completely, therefor it has no place in this deck
I suggest to go a bit deeper on the explanation of Unified Will and/or Negate. Unified Will needs matchups where you have the upper hand on creatures all the time (Tron, Valakut, Amulet Titan) but it needs a good preparation for this counterspell to work. Negate cannot handle critical creatures in these matchups being Primeval Titan, Thragtusk, Walking Ballista and Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger, but it can be good to fight other combo and control decks.
Burrenton Forge-Tender was already on the to-do, I removed it the last time I updated and just didn't re-add it. Other than that thanks for the suggestions!
Hi Torpf, I think a large problem of the primer, and indeed the discussion on this deck is that it is so utterly fragmented into it's different constituent decks, them being; Knightfall, Bant Company, Bant Vizier, Bant Knightfall Vizier. Each is essentially a fairly different deck, and everyone seemingly deserving their own segment on the decks, entirely separate from one another.
Some hopefully helpful criticism of the current primer, and then some possible suggestions;
Criticism;
The Archangel of Thune + Spike Feeder combo I believe literally hasn't been played in a single competitive Bant list in over a year, and deserves no place in a primer for Knightfall.
The Sample deck-lists are poorly out of date.
The distinction of segregating the two Vizier decks from the two Midrange decks is paramount. This is seen in the 'proven maindeck creatures' section, where it places Duskwatch Recruiter next to Voice and Ooze. To be honest, in my opinion, the vizier version of this deck is entirely a combo deck and has no place in this self sectioned Midrange primer, as this is the Knightfall/Bant Company primer.
The Inclusion of Chord in the proven maindeck non-creature spells along side CoCo, Retreat and Path is like, well no I'm sorry it's utterly not. It's only seen in Vizier lists and is paramount there, and basically unplayable in the value lists. We need a segregation of the decks categorisation to have clear discussions on the improvements to both in the future.
Rhox War Monk and Rest in Peace are laughable to be in the recommended sideboard section
The primer shows its age when UR delver is referenced in the argument for Eidolon of Rhetoric being good.
Some Suggestions;
Have a section discussing the advantages/disadvantages to play of the 7/8 dork 22/23 land debate
Have a section discussing the validity of the red splash and the sideboard cards that come along with it (Izzet Staticaster/Crumble to Dust) vs the play of Straight Bant, sometimes with the addition of Sejiri Steppe.
Have a section discussing the use of the two drops as our hate card package for the metagame
Have a section discussing the play of the difference suit of counter spells from the board
Based on the most recent lists averaging in 2018 the breakdown of mainboard staples vs addition card choices should look something like, at least for the Knightfall/Bant Company section, being as non biased as possible.
- snip
As for your criticism, what I did was smash the GWx Vizier Company thread into this one in an attempt to make this comprehensive since it was never updated after Vizier was printed. Looking at it now, I see where you're coming from, and do agree that this should be kept as Midrange/Knightfall only. Since I also run the other thread, I can just flesh that one out more with all of the colour splashes. I was writing offline and totally forgot that we rearranged the forums into archetypes, which was a major oversight... Thanks for giving me a better idea of how to organize all of it. As for the rest of the points, it just shows how out of date the primer was lol. Thanks for pointing it out and I'll get it changed.
All the suggestions are great too, so I'll get those added in.
When talking about Reflector Mage, the part where it says that getting him with Collected Company or Chord of Calling "is extra potent as using it on the opponents turn adds an additional turn to its effect" is kind of misleading. It doesn't add an extra turn to the effect as your next turn begins right when the opponent's ends.
I consider all the 2 drops flex spots, since what you play in them depends on the meta and what is in your sideboard. Main is pretty stock, still playing 2x Retreat to Coralhelm. I know a fair amount of people don't like it any more but the only time I've been unhappy drawing retreat is when I have another on board. I think it mostly depends on when you side them out. 7 dorks, 23 lands, in concession to burn and mardu.
I've been meaning to cut the ooze in the board, I don't think I need it. leyline also comes in against valakut decks, and usually I side out retreats if I need coralhelm(except vs valakut)
I knew I wanted to accomplish the 2 following things that have held the deck back imho:
Play at least 4 mana sink creatures (tracker/Scooze) and 2 mana sink lands (kessig+township)
Play aggressive 3 drops that protect jace well (brimaz > courser)
I hate unified will, the cards I want to counter are almost all non-creature, so there's no need for it imho. If I'm trying to hit creatures I'm doing so with the other 11/12 board slots.
The Unified Will is for Primeval Titan and the creatures in Tron decks (6+ Creatures and Thoughtknot Seer). It does hit things like Snapcaster Mage but it’s primarily for those match-ups. You could play Disdainful Stroke but then your limited to 4 or greater instead of countering ANYTHING for just having more creatures than your opponent, which shouldn’t be too difficult with 8 mana dorks.
Hey all, sorry if this constitutes a thread hijack, but is this the best forum spot to discuss Bant Vizier Knightfall? I know a lot of people run standard Bant Knightfall whereas others run Counters Company, but I run a mash-up version that combines the two. I can't seem to find a thread that discusses that version of the deck exclusively. Is there a better primer/post/Reddit subforum/Facebook group I should be aware of? I started playtesting the deck and it feels really solid, and then I brought it to FNM this week and went 4-1 with all 2-0 match wins and a loss to Martyr Proc (which is kinda funny because you would think the infinite combo wouldn't care about life-gain). It feels like it has game against most decks with the ability to win via regular midrange beats, combo, or controlly EOT shenanigans.
I actually still play my Build of Vizier Knightfall, and it's discussed sporadically in this Thread, yes! I'd love to see a list; my version is still a bit clunky, and I'm always interested in other people's Build ideas.
I haven't ran into too many valakut decks tbh, I know killing the creatures would be bad, but I still feel like blanking scapeshift #1 or #2 is decent enough. If we can stall long enough Knight of the Reliquary can block the titan and they will run out of mountains eventually.
I plan to cut the one Retreat to Coralhelm and add in another Reflector Mage. KotR is good enough by itself that it doesn't need Retreat, at least in this build.
My SB is kind of a mess at the moment. For non-creature spells, I had a smattering of Blessed Alliance, Bojuka Bog, Unified Will, Worship, and Stony Silence. For creatures I put in Izzet Staticaster, Eidolon of Rhetoric, and I forget what else. But I plan to make some changes to make the SB more silver bullet-ish by replacing the Bogs with Remorseful Cleric, for example. And maybe Kataki in place of Stony Silence. I recognize Stony is generally better at shutting down artifact-based decks but with Kataki I have a far, far greater chance of actually seeing it (1 in the deck, plus 4 Chords, plus 4 CoCo's).
I used to play Knightfall, then just for fun started to build a deck around Rhonas the Indomitable, mainly because I just liked the card. Things however did get serious when Steel Leaf Champion was printed, this card is bonkers with Rhonas and Collected Company. Many iterations and approx. 200 matches (XMage and a few local tournaments) and later I have arrived at the following decklist, which currently has a 71% win ratio across 80 matches.
Reasons to play the deck:
This deck hits very hard very fast, with Steel Leaf Champion and Rhonas having 5 power, and Knight, Tracker and Ooze being able to grow to similar proportions. Yet, the deck is not a dog to combo decks, it interacts with a playset of Spell Quellers (and CoCo to hit them) as well as Stubborn Denial out of the Board, which is a 1-Mana hard counter most of the time.
On Rhonas: Big, can be hit off Coco and is able to pump fliers or give trample to a huge Knight for lethal damage in a board stall. There are 12 creatues plus Gideon which can activate Rhonas. On Steel Leaf Champion: He has such amazing P/T stats plus evasion for the cmc, so much better than leatherback baloth. Dropping him on T2 has won me many games.
You may wonder, whether the mana is stable enough to support triple green for champion and white/blue for the quellers at the same time. The mana base took a long time to optimize but it has really worked well. There is only one land, which does not produce green, a basic plains. The 7 mana dorks greatly contribute to smoothing out the mana. I play 22 lands / 7 dorks, which is 1 land or 1 dork short off of the often stated consensus, but with 22 lands / 8 dorks I was often dissatisfied with topdecking a bird and cutting one bird has paid off. I put in 3 fastlands to reduce the life loss.
Quick note on matchups:
Blue decks are in general quite favorable, Jund and Mardu Pyromancer are even, Affinity and Hollow One are tough and Tron is a nightmare.
thanks a lot for your feedback, I really appreciate that. Please allow me to reply to some of your remarks:
- I like Steel Leaf better than knight b/c he is bigger early game when you drop him, where knight has to take a turn off to grow himself +2/+2. Plus (and that's a big plus), he cannot be jumped by tokens or other small creatures. That makes him a a better clock.
- Rhonas' condition: This is a valid point, there are potential blow-outs against removal-heavy decks. This is why I went down from 3 to 2 copies. But he does warrant those two slots since he wins games (pump/trample ability, survives wraths)
- Mana base: True, not being able to play utility lands such as GQ and Gavony Township is a real cost I have to pay to play Steel Leaf.
- Random slots: Are you referring to mainboard or sideboard? Mainboard Dromoka's Command is simply a Swiss army knive that's good to have (acts as a 4th path a lot of the times but also helps vs. burn and random enchantments).
- Denial vs. negate: You're absolutely right in that denial cannot be held up on T2 when I (ideally) play a 3-drop. However, in subsequent turns it is just so much easier to hold up 1 mana instead of 2. And against the decks where I want counters (i.e. combo decks) my creatures usually stay alive. I've been pretty happy with stubborn and in my eyes it is one of the draws towards the deck.
- Very interesting point with Geist plus Reflector vs. Steel Leaf. I will definitely test that to see how it compares, maybe it is indeed better.
- Matchups: Maybe I should have used a different wording, affinity and hollow one are unfavourable since they are faster than us. You are right, I forgot Humans, which is also faster than us.
So, I've been playing Knightfall for over a 2 years now. There's not a ton I can add to the conversation that hasn't already been said. It's weakest matchups are clearly the linear decks, and the two drop slot is really where the deck is weakest (if SFM got unbanned that would help a lot) . Earlier, someone made a comprehensive list of playable cards for the maindeck and sideboard, but I went through the pain of finding all the cards that might even be remotely playable that can fill flex slots.
I don't have the time or money to test every single one of these cards in depth but I'll just say what I'm most interested in. I kinda like the idea of Jace, Vryn's Prodigy. It lets you filter the cards you don't want for the given matchup and it lets you rebuy CoCo later on. The only problem is that it does nothing if it immediately dies to removal.
If we want more cards against combo or control, we can try and add Spellstutter Sprites. It lets us play even more as a flash deck and it can help save creatures from Paths and Bolts just by itself. With Vendilion Clique, you can put a better package against combo and control.
I also like the idea of Champion of Wits for the same reason as Jace. It can help filter bad cards and it can be another threat for the late game against midrange and control.
If you're struggling with fliers, boy did I find the card for you. Aven Mimeomancer can turn your Noble Hierarchs or Birds into 3/1 fliers that can black Mantis Rider and Spirits all day long. Plus, it can turn them into threats.
One of the matchups that I think is also rough is burn, and I've always wanted to try Sunscourge Champion. It gains two immediately and then 4 later. Sometimes, you die with cards in hand anyways so the discard on the Eternalize doesn't matter. I think it might be good, but Finks just might be better since Finks is cards advantage while Champion is disadvantage.
I kinda want to try Tamiyo, Field Researcher as well. She can tap down blockers, and draw a ton of cards. She seems great against any deck except for combo.
The problem with all of these cards, save Clique and Sprite, are that they all help the already good matchups (midrange and control). There are so few cards that help against control.
Finally, I've noticed that everyone seems to be off of the Coralhelm combo. I too have cut it. My question is, if we're not playing the combo, why run blue? Why not Abzan CoCo which gives access to hand disruption with Tidehollow Sculler? This deck went 5-0 a couple weeks ago and I think it might be a good place to start.
The only reason to be playing blue is really for Reflector Mage, since Sculler plays the same roll as Spell Queller. I know this is the thread for Bant Knightfall, but maybe Abzan is the way to go? I wish I had more time to test all these cards. I hope come of this helped give people testing ideas.
I definitely wouldn't say Sculler fills the same role as Queller. Queller is way better and I think it alongside Reflector Mage is more than enough enough reason to be in blue. Especially since the combo matchup doesn't really get any better, and the Midrange matchup gets worse. The only matchups the switch to Black is really helping would be Control
I know Sculler and Queller don't play the EXACT same role, but they both disrupt the opponent. That's kinda what I was going for. Black also gives you Kambal and other hand disrupters like Freebooter (if you need more of the Sculler effects). The Fiend Hunter/Wasteland Strangler combos also help fill a similar role as Reflector Mage in that they help interact with the board while adding bodies to the board. Flickerwisp helps as well in the Humans matchup as it resets big Champions and can block non-exalted Mantis Riders. Black also lets you run Bajuka Bog without completely destroying your mana base with a colorless, etb tapped land. I think black might be something worth experimenting with, and I just wanted to throw it out there since I don't have a bunch of time to test all the different variations.
Idk it just seems like a poor man's D&T. Those interactions are a lot worse without Vial because you're flying blind off of CoCo, and none of those cards have flash on their own (and they all have worse combat stats aside from Flickerwisp.)
Holding up Queller and CoCo at the same time is insanely powerful, and Reflector is the best creature based board interaction in the format.
I think the biggest draw to playing abzan creature toolbox is if you're playing any of the combos. But if you're just going for Beatdown/Value, Blue seems strictly better.
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StaffThe shortlist of things that still need to be fixed:
- Change the 'sample decks' to be more relevant to today's lists
- Update the 'about the deck' section to reflect playing the three distinct styles of decks: Knightfall, Bant Midrange, and Druid-Vizier
- Give all of the cards a proofread, and make their descriptions more concise
- Move Voice & EWit to the maindeck cards, Burrenton & Eidolon & Mirrion Crusader to the SB, and Linvala & Reveillark to the others.
My question to the thread is, what cards have I missed and should be added/removed? Also, I write most of this in notepad so please point out any grammar/spelling stuff I missed.
MTGO/MTGA: Tyclone
My Primers ~ GWx Vizier Company ~ Knightfall ~ RG Eldrazi ~ Green's Sun's Zenith
More Brews ~ Modern Four Horsemen ~ Gitrog Dredge
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StaffAs for your criticism, what I did was smash the GWx Vizier Company thread into this one in an attempt to make this comprehensive since it was never updated after Vizier was printed. Looking at it now, I see where you're coming from, and do agree that this should be kept as Midrange/Knightfall only. Since I also run the other thread, I can just flesh that one out more with all of the colour splashes. I was writing offline and totally forgot that we rearranged the forums into archetypes, which was a major oversight... Thanks for giving me a better idea of how to organize all of it. As for the rest of the points, it just shows how out of date the primer was lol. Thanks for pointing it out and I'll get it changed.
All the suggestions are great too, so I'll get those added in.
MTGO/MTGA: Tyclone
My Primers ~ GWx Vizier Company ~ Knightfall ~ RG Eldrazi ~ Green's Sun's Zenith
More Brews ~ Modern Four Horsemen ~ Gitrog Dredge
MB flex: 3x Voice of Resurgence
2x Qasali Pridemage
1x Scavenging Ooze
2x Tireless Tracker
SB:
4x Leyline of Sanctity
2x Relic of Progenitus
2x Damping Sphere
1x Path to Exile
1xScavenging Ooze
2xStony Silence
2xEngineered Explosives
1x Qasali Pridemage
I consider all the 2 drops flex spots, since what you play in them depends on the meta and what is in your sideboard. Main is pretty stock, still playing 2x Retreat to Coralhelm. I know a fair amount of people don't like it any more but the only time I've been unhappy drawing retreat is when I have another on board. I think it mostly depends on when you side them out. 7 dorks, 23 lands, in concession to burn and mardu.
Like 14 decks
Knightfall WURG
Like 14 decks
Knightfall WURG
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Flooded Strand
1 Field of Ruin
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Gavony Township
1 Stomping Ground
2 Temple Garden
2 Breeding Pool
1 Hallowed Fountain
2 Forest
1 Plains
1 Horizon Canopy
4 noble hierarch
3 Birds of Paradise
4 Voice of Resurgence
2 Scavenging OOze
2 Qasali Pridemage
4 Knight of the reliquary
4 Spell Queller
2 Brimaz, king of oreskos
2 Tireless tracker
4 Collected Company
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Path to Exile
I knew I wanted to accomplish the 2 following things that have held the deck back imho:
Play at least 4 mana sink creatures (tracker/Scooze) and 2 mana sink lands (kessig+township)
Play aggressive 3 drops that protect jace well (brimaz > courser)
I hate unified will, the cards I want to counter are almost all non-creature, so there's no need for it imho. If I'm trying to hit creatures I'm doing so with the other 11/12 board slots.
Need a collection tracker? Use EchoMTG here: https://www.echomtg.com/r/7bb6961d/
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I'm really not a fan of Thalia with CoCo, but if it works for you it's your call. I much prefer Voice of Resurgence in that slot
Like 14 decks
Knightfall WURG
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Devoted Druid
3 Vizier of Remedies
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Duskwatch Recruiter
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Spell Queller
1 Reflector Mage
1 Walking Ballista
1 Eternal Witness
4 Collected Company
1 Retreat to Coralhelm
And then 22 lands, including the Kessig Wolf Run package (i.e., including a Stomping Ground).
I plan to cut the one Retreat to Coralhelm and add in another Reflector Mage. KotR is good enough by itself that it doesn't need Retreat, at least in this build.
My SB is kind of a mess at the moment. For non-creature spells, I had a smattering of Blessed Alliance, Bojuka Bog, Unified Will, Worship, and Stony Silence. For creatures I put in Izzet Staticaster, Eidolon of Rhetoric, and I forget what else. But I plan to make some changes to make the SB more silver bullet-ish by replacing the Bogs with Remorseful Cleric, for example. And maybe Kataki in place of Stony Silence. I recognize Stony is generally better at shutting down artifact-based decks but with Kataki I have a far, far greater chance of actually seeing it (1 in the deck, plus 4 Chords, plus 4 CoCo's).
3x Birds of Paradise
3x Knight of the Reliquary
4x Noble Hierarch
1x Qasali Pridemage
2x Rhonas the Indomitable
3x Scavenging Ooze
4x Spell Queller
4x Steel Leaf Champion
2x Tireless Tracker
3x Voice of Resurgence
Instant (8)
4x Collected Company
1x Dromoka's Command
3x Path to Exile
1x Botanical Sanctum
2x Breeding Pool
3x Flooded Strand
3x Forest
1x Horizon Canopy
3x Misty Rainforest
1x Plains
2x Razorverge Thicket
2x Temple Garden
4x Windswept Heath
Planeswalker (1)
1x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1x Aven Mindcensor
1x Ceremonious Rejection
1x Damping Sphere
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Path to Exile
2x Rest in Peace
1x Settle the Wreckage
2x Stony Silence
3x Stubborn Denial
1x Wrath of God
1x Worship
Reasons to play the deck:
This deck hits very hard very fast, with Steel Leaf Champion and Rhonas having 5 power, and Knight, Tracker and Ooze being able to grow to similar proportions. Yet, the deck is not a dog to combo decks, it interacts with a playset of Spell Quellers (and CoCo to hit them) as well as Stubborn Denial out of the Board, which is a 1-Mana hard counter most of the time.
On Rhonas: Big, can be hit off Coco and is able to pump fliers or give trample to a huge Knight for lethal damage in a board stall. There are 12 creatues plus Gideon which can activate Rhonas.
On Steel Leaf Champion: He has such amazing P/T stats plus evasion for the cmc, so much better than leatherback baloth. Dropping him on T2 has won me many games.
You may wonder, whether the mana is stable enough to support triple green for champion and white/blue for the quellers at the same time. The mana base took a long time to optimize but it has really worked well. There is only one land, which does not produce green, a basic plains. The 7 mana dorks greatly contribute to smoothing out the mana. I play 22 lands / 7 dorks, which is 1 land or 1 dork short off of the often stated consensus, but with 22 lands / 8 dorks I was often dissatisfied with topdecking a bird and cutting one bird has paid off. I put in 3 fastlands to reduce the life loss.
Quick note on matchups:
Blue decks are in general quite favorable, Jund and Mardu Pyromancer are even, Affinity and Hollow One are tough and Tron is a nightmare.
I am always happy for comments / suggestions!
thanks a lot for your feedback, I really appreciate that. Please allow me to reply to some of your remarks:
- I like Steel Leaf better than knight b/c he is bigger early game when you drop him, where knight has to take a turn off to grow himself +2/+2. Plus (and that's a big plus), he cannot be jumped by tokens or other small creatures. That makes him a a better clock.
- Rhonas' condition: This is a valid point, there are potential blow-outs against removal-heavy decks. This is why I went down from 3 to 2 copies. But he does warrant those two slots since he wins games (pump/trample ability, survives wraths)
- Mana base: True, not being able to play utility lands such as GQ and Gavony Township is a real cost I have to pay to play Steel Leaf.
- Random slots: Are you referring to mainboard or sideboard? Mainboard Dromoka's Command is simply a Swiss army knive that's good to have (acts as a 4th path a lot of the times but also helps vs. burn and random enchantments).
- Denial vs. negate: You're absolutely right in that denial cannot be held up on T2 when I (ideally) play a 3-drop. However, in subsequent turns it is just so much easier to hold up 1 mana instead of 2. And against the decks where I want counters (i.e. combo decks) my creatures usually stay alive. I've been pretty happy with stubborn and in my eyes it is one of the draws towards the deck.
- Very interesting point with Geist plus Reflector vs. Steel Leaf. I will definitely test that to see how it compares, maybe it is indeed better.
- Matchups: Maybe I should have used a different wording, affinity and hollow one are unfavourable since they are faster than us. You are right, I forgot Humans, which is also faster than us.
But once again, thanks for the feedback!
One-Drops
Burrenton Forge-Tender
Duantless Bodyguard
Dryad Militant
Ulvenwald Tracker
Two-Drops
Coiling Oracle
Dromoka's Command
Fleecemane Lion
Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
Kataki, War's Wage
Meddling Mage
Negate
Phyrexian Revoker
Remorseful Cleric
Saffi Eriksdotter
Spellskite
Spellstutter Sprite
Tocatli Honor Guard
Wall of Omens
Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3-Drops
Aven Mindcensor
Aven Mimeomancer
Brimaz, King of Oreskos
Champion of Wits
Courser of Kruphix
Eidolon of Rhetoric
Eternal Witness
Thalia, Heretic Cathar
Fairgrounds Warden
Geist of Saint Traft
Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
Kitchen Finks
Loxodon Smiter
Magus of the Moon
Militia Bugler
Mirran Crusader
Nimble Obstructionist
Nissa, Vastwood Seer
Order of Whiteclay
Prowling Serpopard
Reclamation Sage
Renegade Rallier
Rhox War Monk
Runic Armasaur
Sunscourge Champion
Troll Ascetic
Vendilion Clique
4-Drops
Bloodbraid Elf
Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Obstinate Baloth
Settle the Wreckage
Tamiyo, Field Researcher
5-Drop
Archangel Avacyn
Fracturing Gust
Elspeth Sun's Champion
I don't have the time or money to test every single one of these cards in depth but I'll just say what I'm most interested in. I kinda like the idea of Jace, Vryn's Prodigy. It lets you filter the cards you don't want for the given matchup and it lets you rebuy CoCo later on. The only problem is that it does nothing if it immediately dies to removal.
If we want more cards against combo or control, we can try and add Spellstutter Sprites. It lets us play even more as a flash deck and it can help save creatures from Paths and Bolts just by itself. With Vendilion Clique, you can put a better package against combo and control.
I also like the idea of Champion of Wits for the same reason as Jace. It can help filter bad cards and it can be another threat for the late game against midrange and control.
If you're struggling with fliers, boy did I find the card for you. Aven Mimeomancer can turn your Noble Hierarchs or Birds into 3/1 fliers that can black Mantis Rider and Spirits all day long. Plus, it can turn them into threats.
One of the matchups that I think is also rough is burn, and I've always wanted to try Sunscourge Champion. It gains two immediately and then 4 later. Sometimes, you die with cards in hand anyways so the discard on the Eternalize doesn't matter. I think it might be good, but Finks just might be better since Finks is cards advantage while Champion is disadvantage.
I kinda want to try Tamiyo, Field Researcher as well. She can tap down blockers, and draw a ton of cards. She seems great against any deck except for combo.
The problem with all of these cards, save Clique and Sprite, are that they all help the already good matchups (midrange and control). There are so few cards that help against control.
Finally, I've noticed that everyone seems to be off of the Coralhelm combo. I too have cut it. My question is, if we're not playing the combo, why run blue? Why not Abzan CoCo which gives access to hand disruption with Tidehollow Sculler? This deck went 5-0 a couple weeks ago and I think it might be a good place to start.
4x Birds of Paradise
1x Bojuka Bog
4x Collected Company
3x Eternal Witness
2x Fiend Hunter
4x Flickerwisp
1x Forest
2x Ghost Quarter
1x Godless Shrine
1x Horizon Canopy
4x Knight of the Reliquary
3x Marsh Flats
4x Noble Hierarch
2x Overgrown Tomb
2x Plains
2x Scavenging Ooze
2x Selfless Spirit
1x Swamp
2x Temple Garden
4x Tidehollow Sculler
2x Verdant Catacombs
1x Voice of Resurgence
4x Wasteland Strangler
4x Windswept Heath
The only reason to be playing blue is really for Reflector Mage, since Sculler plays the same roll as Spell Queller. I know this is the thread for Bant Knightfall, but maybe Abzan is the way to go? I wish I had more time to test all these cards. I hope come of this helped give people testing ideas.
Holding up Queller and CoCo at the same time is insanely powerful, and Reflector is the best creature based board interaction in the format.
I think the biggest draw to playing abzan creature toolbox is if you're playing any of the combos. But if you're just going for Beatdown/Value, Blue seems strictly better.