Collected Company might be fine, but I feel like the sentiment among some is that it's required, and it's simply not. The combo neatly slots into Zoo. For example:
The Lynxs probably don't belong in that list, but I'd like to try them. It's not unreasonable to throw in a black splash along with Tribal Flames, Siege Rhino, and potentially Snapcaster Mage. We can easily shift pieces around to be more aggro or more midrange. I don't see this combo fitting into a control shell, since KotR is such a good beater.
An alternative would be to attempt the Travis Woo special and try to cram two combos together. I can't think of a good combo to go with this one though.
For the Steppe Lynx builds I prefer Naya splashing blue (like the above) over Bant splashing red. Lynx to me is a Naya creature to its core. Bant doesn't have the reach or the aggression to emphasize on it swinging for 4 on turn 2 (especially if you're running durdly stuff like CoCo). The longer the game goes the more unimpressive it becomes (obviously), so I think it's supposed to be run in decks that goldfishes around turn 4.
Basic lines:
Dork into t2 knight/geist (possible t3 kill if kotr followed with retreat and land)
Dork into cobra+knight or cobra+counter mana.
t2 cobra into sword+equip
kotr/geist into elspeth
kotr+cobra for huge ramp (although all you can really do with it is titan or revelation or sword+equip)
retreat to tap blockers for geist/sworded dork
titan to recur combo pieces
apostle's blessing to protect knight on t3 kill (or just to get geist/knight/sword through blockers)
I am sure the numbers are wrong and some cards are wrong - but I don't think its correct to play crap like ruin ghost, and I'm not sure collected company is worth it here. coco decks can only afford about 8 other non-creature spells and 4 of those are gonna be paths. If 3 of the remaining are retreats you have very very few slots left for interaction. Naya company is a deck, I'm not sure that porting it to bant and dropping bolts for retreats is going to be a winning move.
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Modern
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
I really think this kind of deck wants to be playing bigger than a bunch of 1-drops but the deck ABSOLUTELY wants noble hierarch.
T1 noble hierarch
T2 retreat to coralhelm
T3 tap hierarch, play a fetch untapping hierarch then tap him before cracking fetch to untap him again... That is 6 mana turn three.
If you have a second retreat you can play that turn 3 and still have 5 mana left and then turn 4 you'd have 8 mana. That is bonkers.
I am going to try to build a bigger tempo-y list kind of like twin. Being able to cryptic commandeternal witness lock starting on turn 3 sounds amazing. Also sphinx's revelation for 5 on turn 4 doesn't sound too bad either.
This is a very rough list but here is what I am thinking
The manabase may need some work, I have not actually done the math to see if it is enough lands to get a knight to 20/20 but from initial inspection don't think it should be an issue with the fetches. Also it is a very painful manabase so SB would need to be geared toward aggro but there are plenty of options. Also the small red splash leaves open some good options for SB, maybe even bolt for the wonderful bolt/snap/bolt route.
I think we want a ton of fetches, it means we don't have to have as many plains/forests for knight of the reliquary and also allows us to double up on retreat to coralhelm triggers or go
T1 noble hierarch
T2 retreat to coralhelm
T3 Fetchland, sun titan, return the fetchland and untap the hierarch and have mana open to either path or mana leak. It is just a strong sequence of play.
I think this deck has a ton of potential and I am excited to see where this thread goes. We may need to split it at some point between the aggro 1-drop approach and the bigger midrange/tempo lists like mine.
Combined with voyaging satyr and it could be pretty explosive.
I would've thought the beatdown route would at least want one , seeing as it is tutorable with Knight.
I considered it and may still add it, afterall I have not tried my list at all yet but the landspots are tight considering we need so many forests/plains and I am also trying to run cryptic. Very well end up in my list though. It is a great card.
I always considered Rogue's Passage and sejeri's steppe to be sufficiant for getting trough with the KOTR, without splashing another color for kessig wolf run.
I know wolf run is cheaper and can buff our guy but i'm not sure it is worth splashing a color for.
All of you people advocating Mangara of Corondor need to understand one thing. Retreat to Coralhelm DOES NOT give you a double activation EXCEPT on fetch lands. It also works with Coralhelm + Knight on field, but you've already won if you have those two in play.
Regarding Kessig Wolf Run, you don't really need to splash another colour to play it. You just need a single x/R shockland which you fetch while you're cycling through your whole deck to produce the single red mana you need.
http://mythicspoiler.com/bfz/cards/swellofgrowth.html
Would this be playable? Instant speed landfall enabler.
T1 stepped lynx
T2 fetch, crack, swell of growth. Attack for 8. Plus having 1 mana up for a counter or a serum visions
http://mythicspoiler.com/bfz/cards/swellofgrowth.html
Would this be playable? Instant speed landfall enabler.
T1 stepped lynx
T2 fetch, crack, swell of growth. Attack for 8. Plus having 1 mana up for a counter or a serum visions
Definitely not in this deck.
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Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
- Manite
What about rancor? 1 mana to ensure steppe lynx or kotr goes through? Can also play courser of kruphix to offset lifeloss and gain CA. Courser with rancor is good pressure as well.
Im not sold on commune withthe gods just yet. Itsgood but i think our 2 drop slot is packed and would much rather play remand/qpride/scooze/goyf in that slot tbh.
What about rancor? 1 mana to ensure steppe lynx or kotr goes through? Can also play courser of kruphix to offset lifeloss and gain CA. Courser with rancor is good pressure as well.
Im not sold on commune withthe gods just yet. Itsgood but i think our 2 drop slot is packed and would much rather play remand/qpride/scooze/goyf in that slot tbh.
I was finding that with the 2 drops as well, if playing any kind of tempo game, we need 2 mana up almost perpetually.
Interesting deck. Just a note: I don't think this combo is comparable to twin, that is an istant speed win combo, this is not. Twin can stay open mana EOT and choose to play a creature or something else. This is why the twin combo is so strong.
I don't think trying to replicate the twin deck is the right way going forward, I think the aggro plan is the best.
Just my 2 cent
I think a lot of people are misunderstanding what is being said when we compare this combo to splinter twin, we're comparing the deckbuilding philosophy of the splinter twin deck to this deck, not comparing the ACTUAL COMBO PIECES. What we tend to mean is that we insert the combo into a shell that is fulling capable of winning by itself but also has a combo to win out of nowhere when drawn, giving a way out for this aggro shell to win against combos that just go off too fast for us to get them dead with our dudes.
The grindy matchups have the potential to be won through this combo as well, though I suspect we'll be winning by resolving some collected company as that card has single handedly given zoo/aggro style decks the opportunity to come back from board wipes, and large amounts of spot removal. The lists with collected company in them are a tight fit however because you need at least 25 creatures in the deck to justify the cocos then 3-4 cocos, 3-4 Retreat to Coralhelm, 4 path to exile (yes you need them), 21-22 lands, then depending on your exact amounts in here 2-4 flex spots which is the subject of a lot of debate here. I picked 3 lightning bolt because I think its an excellent card to have in modern right now though that leaves me a little light on protection for the combo. Simic Charm has been suggested and though I was pretty harshly critical of it earlier its starting to grow on me somewhat as it does handle Abrupt Decay targeting Retreat to Coralhelm in a way that Stubborn Denial and Dispel simply cant.
We can combo at instant speed with colected compagny. It is a threat.
There's that to consider as well, though I doubt that will be the most reliable way of comboing off. Just another reason to consider collected company a must include. Especially when just having a knight out thinning your deck of lands makes collected company so much better.
The more I think about the combo the more I think I like Sunhome, Fortress of the Legion better than Kessig Wolf Run. I think we're almost guaranteed against most decks to be able to tap down enough blockers to be able to sail through and this way we aren't trying to net as much mana as possible to fuel a big wolf run while losing tons of life. What do you guys think?
Core for any sort of aggro or midrange take would probably include
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
3-4 Geist of Saint Traft
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3-4 Retreat to Coralhelm (I'm inclined to start with 3, since we want this deck to function without it.)
Collected Company might be fine, but I feel like the sentiment among some is that it's required, and it's simply not. The combo neatly slots into Zoo. For example:
4 Arid Mesa
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
1 Breeding Pool
1 Hallowed Fountain
2 Sacred Foundry
1 Steam Vents
1 Stomping Ground
1 Temple Garden
1 Stirring Wildwood
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Forest
1 Plains
4 Path to Exile
4 Lightning Bolt
Creatures 27
4 Steppe Lynx
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Geist of Saint Traft
3 Retreat to Coralhelm
The Lynxs probably don't belong in that list, but I'd like to try them. It's not unreasonable to throw in a black splash along with Tribal Flames, Siege Rhino, and potentially Snapcaster Mage. We can easily shift pieces around to be more aggro or more midrange. I don't see this combo fitting into a control shell, since KotR is such a good beater.
An alternative would be to attempt the Travis Woo special and try to cram two combos together. I can't think of a good combo to go with this one though.
4 Scythe Leopard
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Plated Geopede
2 Makindi Sliderunner
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Retreat to Coralhelm
4 Path to Exile
4 Atarka's Command
4 Arid Mesa
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
2 Sacred Foundry
1 Stomping Ground
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Breeding Pool
2 Forest
1 Plains
1 Gruul Turf
1 Selesnya Sanctuary
1 Kessig Wolf Run
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
I know where you post.
4 noble hierarch
2 birds of paradise
4 lotus cobra
4 knight of the reliquary
4 geist of saint traft
1 sun titan
Permanents (6)
3 retreat to coralhelm
1 sword of fire and ice
1 sword of light and shadow
1 elspeth, knight errant
4 path to exile
2 apostle's blessing
2 mana leak
2 remand
1 Sphinx's revelation
Lands (24)
4 windswept heath
3 breeding pool
2 flooded strand
3 temple garden
2 breeding pool
1 hallowed fountain
1 stomping ground
2 plains
3 forest
1 island
1 gavony township
1 kessig wolf run
Basic lines:
Dork into t2 knight/geist (possible t3 kill if kotr followed with retreat and land)
Dork into cobra+knight or cobra+counter mana.
t2 cobra into sword+equip
kotr/geist into elspeth
kotr+cobra for huge ramp (although all you can really do with it is titan or revelation or sword+equip)
retreat to tap blockers for geist/sworded dork
titan to recur combo pieces
apostle's blessing to protect knight on t3 kill (or just to get geist/knight/sword through blockers)
I am sure the numbers are wrong and some cards are wrong - but I don't think its correct to play crap like ruin ghost, and I'm not sure collected company is worth it here. coco decks can only afford about 8 other non-creature spells and 4 of those are gonna be paths. If 3 of the remaining are retreats you have very very few slots left for interaction. Naya company is a deck, I'm not sure that porting it to bant and dropping bolts for retreats is going to be a winning move.
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
T1 noble hierarch
T2 retreat to coralhelm
T3 tap hierarch, play a fetch untapping hierarch then tap him before cracking fetch to untap him again... That is 6 mana turn three.
If you have a second retreat you can play that turn 3 and still have 5 mana left and then turn 4 you'd have 8 mana. That is bonkers.
I am going to try to build a bigger tempo-y list kind of like twin. Being able to cryptic command eternal witness lock starting on turn 3 sounds amazing. Also sphinx's revelation for 5 on turn 4 doesn't sound too bad either.
This is a very rough list but here is what I am thinking
4 Noble Hierarch
1 birds of paradise
4 snapcaster mage
4 knight of the reliquary
2 eternal witness
2 sun titan
enchantments 4
4 retreat to coralhelm
spells 16
4 serum visions
4 path to exile
3 mana leak
1 dispel
2 sphinx's revelation
2 cryptic command
1 kessig wolf run
1 sacred foundry
1 stomping ground
2 temple garden
2 breeding pool
2 hallowed fountain
4 flooded strand
2 windswept heath
4 misty rainforest
2 forest
1 plains
1 island
The manabase may need some work, I have not actually done the math to see if it is enough lands to get a knight to 20/20 but from initial inspection don't think it should be an issue with the fetches. Also it is a very painful manabase so SB would need to be geared toward aggro but there are plenty of options. Also the small red splash leaves open some good options for SB, maybe even bolt for the wonderful bolt/snap/bolt route.
I think we want a ton of fetches, it means we don't have to have as many plains/forests for knight of the reliquary and also allows us to double up on retreat to coralhelm triggers or go
T1 noble hierarch
T2 retreat to coralhelm
T3 Fetchland, sun titan, return the fetchland and untap the hierarch and have mana open to either path or mana leak. It is just a strong sequence of play.
I believe we definitely want 4 retreat to coralhelm as they are really good in multiples especially with noble hierarch and fetches.
I think this deck has a ton of potential and I am excited to see where this thread goes. We may need to split it at some point between the aggro 1-drop approach and the bigger midrange/tempo lists like mine.
Combined with voyaging satyr and it could be pretty explosive.
I would've thought the beatdown route would at least want one , seeing as it is tutorable with Knight.
Modern:
UU TronU
URUR StormUR
RBWBurnRBW
EDH:
RBGProssh,skyraider of kherGBR
RKrenko,Mob BossR
URMelek,Izzet ParagonRU
RDaretti, Scrap savantR
WBTriad of fatesBW
I considered it and may still add it, afterall I have not tried my list at all yet but the landspots are tight considering we need so many forests/plains and I am also trying to run cryptic. Very well end up in my list though. It is a great card.
I know wolf run is cheaper and can buff our guy but i'm not sure it is worth splashing a color for.
Regarding Kessig Wolf Run, you don't really need to splash another colour to play it. You just need a single x/R shockland which you fetch while you're cycling through your whole deck to produce the single red mana you need.
This deck remind me so much of my Intruder alarm, forbidden orchard, Knight of the reliquary combo except way less durdly.(Gonna miss the wargate and the glittering wish altough)
Guess i needed to rogue passagage there to push trough infinite spirits
Would this be playable? Instant speed landfall enabler.
T1 stepped lynx
T2 fetch, crack, swell of growth. Attack for 8. Plus having 1 mana up for a counter or a serum visions
Definitely not in this deck.
- Manite
Im not sold on commune withthe gods just yet. Itsgood but i think our 2 drop slot is packed and would much rather play remand/qpride/scooze/goyf in that slot tbh.
I was finding that with the 2 drops as well, if playing any kind of tempo game, we need 2 mana up almost perpetually.
Spirits
I think a lot of people are misunderstanding what is being said when we compare this combo to splinter twin, we're comparing the deckbuilding philosophy of the splinter twin deck to this deck, not comparing the ACTUAL COMBO PIECES. What we tend to mean is that we insert the combo into a shell that is fulling capable of winning by itself but also has a combo to win out of nowhere when drawn, giving a way out for this aggro shell to win against combos that just go off too fast for us to get them dead with our dudes.
The grindy matchups have the potential to be won through this combo as well, though I suspect we'll be winning by resolving some collected company as that card has single handedly given zoo/aggro style decks the opportunity to come back from board wipes, and large amounts of spot removal. The lists with collected company in them are a tight fit however because you need at least 25 creatures in the deck to justify the cocos then 3-4 cocos, 3-4 Retreat to Coralhelm, 4 path to exile (yes you need them), 21-22 lands, then depending on your exact amounts in here 2-4 flex spots which is the subject of a lot of debate here. I picked 3 lightning bolt because I think its an excellent card to have in modern right now though that leaves me a little light on protection for the combo. Simic Charm has been suggested and though I was pretty harshly critical of it earlier its starting to grow on me somewhat as it does handle Abrupt Decay targeting Retreat to Coralhelm in a way that Stubborn Denial and Dispel simply cant.
~Modern~
BGURWhiteless Death's ShadowRUGB
GWRUSaheeli BlinkURWG
RGBUGood Ole' DredgeUBGR
~Commander~
URWNarset, Enlightened Time-TravelerWRU
UBRWBreya, Etherium ArchitectWRBU
A Prolific Loser To Blood Moon
There's that to consider as well, though I doubt that will be the most reliable way of comboing off. Just another reason to consider collected company a must include. Especially when just having a knight out thinning your deck of lands makes collected company so much better.
~Modern~
BGURWhiteless Death's ShadowRUGB
GWRUSaheeli BlinkURWG
RGBUGood Ole' DredgeUBGR
~Commander~
URWNarset, Enlightened Time-TravelerWRU
UBRWBreya, Etherium ArchitectWRBU
A Prolific Loser To Blood Moon
~Modern~
BGURWhiteless Death's ShadowRUGB
GWRUSaheeli BlinkURWG
RGBUGood Ole' DredgeUBGR
~Commander~
URWNarset, Enlightened Time-TravelerWRU
UBRWBreya, Etherium ArchitectWRBU
A Prolific Loser To Blood Moon
~Modern~
BGURWhiteless Death's ShadowRUGB
GWRUSaheeli BlinkURWG
RGBUGood Ole' DredgeUBGR
~Commander~
URWNarset, Enlightened Time-TravelerWRU
UBRWBreya, Etherium ArchitectWRBU
A Prolific Loser To Blood Moon