Faithless looting is my main motivation for testing the red splash, then crumble to dust. I don't think Purphoros works for us.
Terminate is good too. I forgot to mention I run 2 Dragon Tempest main as well. Wear/Tear and Hide/Seek are good sideboard reasons as well. Both give a variety of options against artifacts/enchantments. Hide can deal with indestructible, and Seek gives a very good response to problematic cards in general plus gains you life.
Faithless looting is my main motivation for testing the red splash, then crumble to dust. I don't think Purphoros works for us.
Terminate is good too. I forgot to mention I run 2 Dragon Tempest main as well. Wear/Tear and Hide/Seek are good sideboard reasons as well. Both give a variety of options against artifacts/enchantments. Hide can deal with indestructible, and Seek gives a very good response to problematic cards in general plus gains you life.
Terminate would be excellent of course, along with awesome sb options red provides. My thoughts (completely speculative at this point) are that by running terminate I would be wanting to fetch a foundry as early as possible whereas, with looting, I might not need the card draw for atleast a few turns. I could be wrong of course, as the discard clause on looting is less of a draw back when we have more cards in hand and more choices for the bin. If you find that looting is an early game play then terminate fits in as well and we would want to fetch foundry right away. Just my thoughts anyway.
I run just enough red sources to get it when I need it. This is my current list and it works just fine so far. Once in a while I'll get shorted on red but that's pretty rare.
Oh thank god this got updated. The old one had so many mistakes. I disagree about tirel being the best walker. Sorin, SV is, with knight errant being second. Want my help in improving this? I have my own primer here: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/bw-token-primer/#c2459297
On this point I 100% agree. Though I think New Gideon is close to the power level of 4 CMC Elspeth. But 5 CMC Elspeth is not good in my opinion. Have tested with her extensively the fact that her token gen is a minus ability weakens her no end since casting her into an open board and making tokens leaves her ripe for bolting. I'm also ignoring Liliana here. (IE I guess my main point is that after SSV if you want a token making walker, the token making ability better not be a minus.)
Also, anyone encountered the WB or B Edrazi decks that look similar to tokens? I haven't played against one, but they look an awful lot like they're very similar to our deck but with bigger butts. Wondering what the matchup is like.
As a previous poster pointed out, the evaluation of a plane walker or any other card is in response to the question: what do I want? They each have their benefits and draw backs. Based on a lot of the discussion, we want more tokens. Well, there is always secure the wastes.
In terms of the red splash, it is great versus Merfolk and zoo. But, when I ran it I used lightning bolt and Kolaghan's command. This was after experime ting with blood moon main. Both cards shined. But they did make other match ups worse, including jund. I would be interested to see the win results using the deck lists given here. I am surprised that no one is running bolt, the best red card ever printed since alpha, main. I would definitely run it over terminate.
As for splashes, I've always liked a Pendelhaven in my BW tokens. With Windswept Heath in addition to Marsh Flats, including 1 Temple Garden would be an easy Abzan splash. Then it allows Abrupt Decay, helps with Sundering Growth so you don't need Disenchant as some have argued in BW. I wouldn't not go so far as to include Gavony Township as too much colorless is problematic and the four mana with a G is difficult. As our card draw is an issue Horizon Canopy as a one of could be argued. Any tokens splash needs to be really light as to not thin out our main focus: making and supporting tokens for card advantage and a wide board. My only other considerations if Abzan splash, I'd go Voice of Resurgence in place of any Bitterblossom, and possibly Choke sideboard to help vs. our blue matchups. Slowing Twin down especially makes to our advantage.
The other issue with red was wanting it early game along with discard, it wasn't consistent and set up mana binds later.
Also if all you want is better card draw serum visions is much better
I think green is a better synergy with BW tokens than blue or red. Not to say there aren't useful cards in either blue or red, but they seem more shoehorned in than supportive and synergistic. Another card we've seen discussed, especially if your meta has graveyard shenanigans (dredgevine and delve seem to be growing in my meta) is Relic of Progenitus which can be a timely card draw when top decking.
I played against the B/x Eldrazi Processors deck last week and the match went to time at 1-1. My game win was pre-sb and in the second game I didn't see any of my sb cards which obviously would have helped. Zealous persecution does double duty killing their scions and getting us in for more damage along with all the spot removal we can get our hands on for their fatties. Their hand disruption and exiling can really make things ****y though. Sorry I don't have much more to contribute here.
EDIT: Scions can be sac'd in response obviously but I think they mostly want them for ramping into titans so if I'm killing them they often have nothing to spend the mana on by saccing in response.
I agree with the sentiment on green. There are tons of enablers there. I like voice as a soft response to control. Synergistically, the colors go together also through design.
And terminate is better than bolt?? I can't even right now, I just can't. I don't have enough evens to can't.
How is it working against twin? I guess the decays in addition to the PtE are working really well, aren´t they?
What would you do in a tron heavy meta - add gaddock teeg to the SB?
BR
Max
Of course the Ghost Quarters main always find a target, and Nevermore can be quite useful vs. Tron. Nevermore Nature's Claim for example, discard their Ulamogs and Karns, path Wurmcoils/Ulamogs, etc... In BW Tokens I MB 2 Runed Halo (always something to use them against) which you can see in my BW Tokens list in my signature. I don't own a Teeg, although I'd been eyeing it for quite a while ... but now it just jumped in price drastically. With the discard (including boarding in Castigate) you can also go after some key Tron cards.
With the Choke, AD, and discard I'm quite happy against Twin with this deck. Lots of Twin in my meta. Lots of them play Dispel/Mana Snare, which the discard dodges.
I agree with the sentiment on green. There are tons of enablers there. I like voice as a soft response to control. Synergistically, the colors go together also through design.
And terminate is better than bolt?? I can't even right now, I just can't. I don't have enough evens to can't.
If you reread my post, I state that, by the logic of strictly creature removal, Terminate is better then Bolt. Add in the ability to hit players with Bolt, and easily becomes the better card. I may not have made it clear, but I was speaking in terms of STRICTLY creature removal, removing the possibility of targeting players.
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Also as for the talk about Purphoros I'd think Impact Tremors would be better as it's 2cmc instead of 4.
Terminate is good too. I forgot to mention I run 2 Dragon Tempest main as well. Wear/Tear and Hide/Seek are good sideboard reasons as well. Both give a variety of options against artifacts/enchantments. Hide can deal with indestructible, and Seek gives a very good response to problematic cards in general plus gains you life.
Terminate would be excellent of course, along with awesome sb options red provides. My thoughts (completely speculative at this point) are that by running terminate I would be wanting to fetch a foundry as early as possible whereas, with looting, I might not need the card draw for atleast a few turns. I could be wrong of course, as the discard clause on looting is less of a draw back when we have more cards in hand and more choices for the bin. If you find that looting is an early game play then terminate fits in as well and we would want to fetch foundry right away. Just my thoughts anyway.
2 Swamp
4 Marsh Flats
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Godless Shrine
2 Sacred Foundry
3 Shambling Vent
1 Isolated Chapel
1 Vault of the Archangel
Since I currently only have red in the sideboard and for only a couple cards, I have really skimped on how much red I run.
3 Faithless Looting
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Lingering Souls
4 Spectral Procession
2 Thoughtseize
Instant
2 Midnight Haunting
4 Path to Exile
2 Terminate
2 Zealous Persecution
Enchantment
2 Dragon Tempest
4 Intangible Virtue
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
Planeswalker
3 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
Land
1 Clifftop Retreat
4 Flooded Strand
3 Godless Shrine
3 Isolated Chapel
2 Plains
2 Sacred Foundry
1 Swamp
1 Vault of the Archangel
2 Windbrisk Heights
4 Windswept Heath
1 Hallowed Moonlight
2 Hide // Seek
3 Kataki, War's Wage
4 Kor Firewalker
2 Pithing Needle
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Runed Halo
1 Wear // Tear
On this point I 100% agree. Though I think New Gideon is close to the power level of 4 CMC Elspeth. But 5 CMC Elspeth is not good in my opinion. Have tested with her extensively the fact that her token gen is a minus ability weakens her no end since casting her into an open board and making tokens leaves her ripe for bolting. I'm also ignoring Liliana here. (IE I guess my main point is that after SSV if you want a token making walker, the token making ability better not be a minus.)
Also, anyone encountered the WB or B Edrazi decks that look similar to tokens? I haven't played against one, but they look an awful lot like they're very similar to our deck but with bigger butts. Wondering what the matchup is like.
In terms of the red splash, it is great versus Merfolk and zoo. But, when I ran it I used lightning bolt and Kolaghan's command. This was after experime ting with blood moon main. Both cards shined. But they did make other match ups worse, including jund. I would be interested to see the win results using the deck lists given here. I am surprised that no one is running bolt, the best red card ever printed since alpha, main. I would definitely run it over terminate.
Something like this:
2 Fetid Heath
2 Ghost Quarter
2 Godless Shrine
1 Horizon Canopy
4 Marsh Flats
1 Pendelhaven
2 Plains
1 Shambling Vent
2 Swamp
1 Temple Garden
1 Vault of the Archangel
2 Windbrisk Heights
2 Windswept Heath
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Intangible Virtue
4 Lingering Souls
4 Path to Exile
2 Raise the Alarm
4 Spectral Procession
3 Thoughtseize
1 Timely Reinforcements
2 Zealous Persecution
Walkers
2 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
Creatures
2 Hero of Bladehold
2 Voice of Resurgence
2 Castigate
3 Stony Silence
2 Nevermore
2 Sundering Growth
2 Ghostly Prison
1 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Choke
1 Timely Reinforcements
Modern
URB Grixis Delver
GWB Abzan Company
RWB Mardu Burn
WB Martyr Proc
Also if all you want is better card draw serum visions is much better
I think green is a better synergy with BW tokens than blue or red. Not to say there aren't useful cards in either blue or red, but they seem more shoehorned in than supportive and synergistic. Another card we've seen discussed, especially if your meta has graveyard shenanigans (dredgevine and delve seem to be growing in my meta) is Relic of Progenitus which can be a timely card draw when top decking.
Modern
URB Grixis Delver
GWB Abzan Company
RWB Mardu Burn
WB Martyr Proc
EDIT: Scions can be sac'd in response obviously but I think they mostly want them for ramping into titans so if I'm killing them they often have nothing to spend the mana on by saccing in response.
And terminate is better than bolt?? I can't even right now, I just can't. I don't have enough evens to can't.
I really like your list!
How is it working against twin? I guess the decays in addition to the PtE are working really well, aren´t they?
What would you do in a tron heavy meta - add gaddock teeg to the SB?
BR
Max
UTron
Of course the Ghost Quarters main always find a target, and Nevermore can be quite useful vs. Tron. Nevermore Nature's Claim for example, discard their Ulamogs and Karns, path Wurmcoils/Ulamogs, etc... In BW Tokens I MB 2 Runed Halo (always something to use them against) which you can see in my BW Tokens list in my signature. I don't own a Teeg, although I'd been eyeing it for quite a while ... but now it just jumped in price drastically. With the discard (including boarding in Castigate) you can also go after some key Tron cards.
With the Choke, AD, and discard I'm quite happy against Twin with this deck. Lots of Twin in my meta. Lots of them play Dispel/Mana Snare, which the discard dodges.
Modern
URB Grixis Delver
GWB Abzan Company
RWB Mardu Burn
WB Martyr Proc