We typically run one colorless source ( Vault of the Archangel ) mainboard. This card probably won't see play unless we start running GQ main, but we are so mana intensive as is. It's probably useable in, again, a controlling build. Test it out when OGW releases and let us know your results!
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"Don't believe everything you read on the internet." - Abraham Lincoln
I like 2 Nevermore SB over 2 Pithing Needle. Needle may be quicker, and slightly less hateful to stay on the board longer, but I think there is slightly more artifact removal than enchantment removal typically run with all the artifact threats around. Instead of stopping abilities of one card, you prevent one card even being played.
Honestly, I'm starting to notice a trend, and a controversial one at that: everybody, and I mean EVERYBODY I have heard who ever splashed red has loved it. I think we need to move in and maybe even conform to it. Look, the meta is hostile right now and red seems to be solving some problems. I will admit, I haven't had the money to splash red, byt I would totally play it if I could. Maybe I'm wrong, but we should probably shoot for it.
EDIT: On the note of Obzedat, I've noticed a lot of MTGO League lists are kind of a BW Control list. Maybe we just aren't fit to he midrange anymore, at least not in BW. BWr still manages to be midrangey.
Just for the record, there's a few of us that have tried the Red splash and aren't crazy about it. It just didn't improve the matchups I want enough.
I'm also realizing that Tron matchups really want Secure the Wastes. The problem is Tron's gameplan is to **** up permanents and that's all we have. With something like Secure the Wastes and Obzedat, we can avoid playing into their payoff cards.
Okay guys so I've been playing my BW Eldrazi list a lot. Deck is pretty sweet if you haven't tried it out yet...
I think the matchup for us is tough, but winnable, it's no Tron and we are favored if they draw the wrong half of their deck which does seem to happen half of the time. Either way, we need to race them as fast as possible and throw a lot of hand disruption their way. Here are a few pointers:
1) Stony Silence is good, it blanks their exile artifacts and shuts down expedition map. Eldrazi decks need to exile your cards to run smoothly, shutting them out of this will slow them down a turn or several.
2) Hand disruption is good, and taking the right cards early will help. Board in Duress and aim to take out any exile enablers like relic of progenitus/spellbomb early if you can. If they don't have any Eldrazi Lands on board or in hand, take their expedition map. Also, keep an eye out for board sweepers, most lists have access to several. If they are already established on board, thoughtseize their biggest mana ramp threat.
3) Consider replacing Dismember with something like Go for the Throat. Their big threats are just too fat and Dismember no longer cuts it.
4) Ghost quarter is reasonable and you may consider playing one-two in the main/SB as the deck becomes more popular. Aim to pop Eldrazi lands.
5) Hold a path (and prepare to float white mana) for Ulamog, the ceaseless hunger, they can tutor and will play him once they hit 10 mana.
Board out anything that doesn't give you a fast clock or contribute to disruption, board in everything that does.
This is basically what I've found as well. I GQ is great for their 1-of lands, and stony shuts down all their exile except Bog and Sugical. To be fair though, their processing of exiled cards makes for a fun Murderous Cut and Lingering Souls subgame. I'm curious where people are at on Zealous Persecution in the MU. Obviously it hits all their Scions, but I'm finding I just want more removal. It's probably just a matter of needing a sweeper.
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Currently Playing: R8whackR WUBGAtraxa Stax-Superfriends *Under Construction*WUBG
what do u think of bearer of silence? a less black mana intensive gatekeeper of malakir with flying
I hate to be one of those instant dismissers! Just thoughts. Please test it. I'm not sure this fits into our token theme. It's not pumped by intangible virtue so remains 1 toughness. Our fliers are plenty, cheaper, and bigger plus they have vigilance. Plus the sacrifice gives choice to the opponent rather than our target, which is weaker. It has value though. May help CoCo more though.
If we are looking for a less black intensive 2/1 flyer with an ETB effect that really helps shore up matchups like Tron, then let it have flash: Aven Mindcensor. Love it in CoCo vs Tron with Fulminator Mages and baby Lily.
If I go green splash (probably should) I think I will cut Vault. It's helpful and easier to use in BW tokens, but if going a third color the colorless mana hurts and we will be hard pressed to activate. I find the need for mana more demanding recently and activate Vault very rarely as is. We don't have mana dorks to help like CoCo where Gavony Township does work (and won't work in our tokens, hence I use Pendelhaven even pure BW). I don't think mana dorks work in our deck either.
As we continue to explore splashes, with green seeming to have the best synthesis, I'm really considering what from my CoCo deck that's been proven works here, especially sideboard, and especially if we are willing to explore creatures 4CMC or bigger. While i think our best strategy is always fast clock and pressure, I think we do have the resilience to make it to 5cmc creatures ... Possibly (the challenge with Obzedat).
As far as bearer of Silence goes, 4 mana is a lot for an edict in this format. We have access to Liliana which does all the same things we want, at 1 less mana. What we lose with Liliana is a body to chump with, but she is much more versatile and will have game in many more matchups than a straight edict effect. What matchups are you hoping to run Bearer in? what are you looking for it to do? What's the list that surrounds it? If there's a way to make Bearer better than it looks on the surface that may be something, but right now we have access to cards that do similar things, better and cheaper. Hope that makes sense.
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Currently Playing: R8whackR WUBGAtraxa Stax-Superfriends *Under Construction*WUBG
Phone, with regards to Zealous if they are BW I keep it in. Kills their Souls and Scions and helps shorten the clock before Ulamog. The other variants I would likely take it out if I had a lot of cards I wanted in, but at a lower priority than other cards. I've found I don't really like Inquisition against them, but YMMV.
I played against it a few times last night in leagues and didn't have any problem with them. Just go as wide as possible while applying pressure, save Path for Ulamog, chump big dudes if necessary and collect your match points.
Red should be burn, Goblins, Dragons, draw/discard, and Standard-unplayable 5CMC cards with insane, lengthy effects that take 10 minutes to figure out what they do and another 20 to actually make their effects work on the field.
Every BW Eldrazi list I've seen runs 1 Ulamog, is this what other people have found? Cause Hide//Seek even if you can't cast Hide would be very helpful vs Ulamog. Just cast it before or when they tutor for it and exile it while gaining 10 life.
I was on the Red splash train for a while and really thought that it resolved a number of issues that tokens had but started to notice a really bad trend with it in my meta with combo and tron. One of the posters above noted this about the style of deck we have: we want early game interaction to delay or disrupt their game plan, throw down some threats and buff them, then live long enough to kill them with the army. Red splash, aside from very specific red cards (like maybe Crumble to Dust, which I think is still too slow), wants a different plan (like more interaction either with yourself through Faithless Looting or them through Crumble to Dust). The problem is that the interactions occur at the wrong times for the deck. Like Looting on turn 1 is great (sort of) because it gives some deck manipulation and enables a turn 2 Lingering Souls. Late game it blows because I don't want to either wait a turn to loot (so I have a land or something to discard) or I don't have any cards in hand. If you really want a card draw effect, there are better red cards IMO. BUT, that isn't why I would splash red. Crumble to Dust, on the other hand, comes down too late. By turn 4 I want to be turning the corner and getting into my late game. This is the turn where I really want an Anthem effect or whatever. If I have to interact, it is really an emergency because to further disrupt or delay the game, but my interaction effects suck at this point. I can kill your main creature or force the discard of something big, but if you have natural tron or whatever, I am hosed. Likewise, if I have a bolt, I don't want to be using it here (and terminate is an option, sure, but so is cut).
So the trend I noticed was that we want black early with a guaranteed third turn white and I could guarantee the white by turn three but I could only guarantee black turn 1 or red turn 1, but not both. Sometimes, the best play was to have turn 1 red mana to kill something on the draw and then turn 2 black mana for discard and then turn three triple white. When I wanted bolt, I also wanted to cast Lingering Souls or my walker, so that was also a problem. I suspect that with enough testing, folks who play with Faithless looting will observe the same thing. Craig Wescoe also says as much when he talks about splashing red for Crumble to Dust. Was the deck better against Merfolk? Absolutely. My win rate against Merfolk was in the 70-90% pre-board. I mean, we could pretty much kick ass against any aggro deck out there and out play them. Against Jund? What should have been a "sign here man and I will buy you a beer to assuage the pain in your ass" became a struggle.
Maybe what we are really noticing is that red splash works well if you have a primarily aggro meta. If you have a more combo meta (I usually end up playing a lot of Tier 1 and 2 combo/tron builds), then it isn't as effective.
Phone: with that sideboard, I would expect Tron to be something like an auto-win. Is it? I say that because almost the entire board is aimed at them. I could get behind that if it made a really crappy situation that much better. I do think you should lose the extra creature removal in the board though.
I played 2 games against a tron deck last week. Game 1 went to him. Game 2, I won. I basically boarded in Stony Silence, Duress, Pithing Needle. I never say needle or Silence, but I did see my discards. Those and exiles held them off. He used an O-Stone, which I followed up with a Secure the Wastes.
Secure the Wastes was the Ace in the Hole. I cast it for 4 and it was gg. Admittedly, he didn't get natural tron, but the fact that the discard effects and Wastes were so powerful says something.
Care to elaborate a little bit? There are definitely decks in my meta that enjoy punching face real hard.
If you expect to play burn, zoo, other aggro decks, or even Abzan multiple times a night, then maindeck Timely Reinforcements seems great. Otherwise, I would rather have Raise the Alarm for mana curve considerations.
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One of these day I have to get myself organizized.
I have been mainboarding 2× timely and I'm never sad to see them. Most often I can cast it for both triggers and it provides another out when we're on the ropes. That being said, they are in the flex spot and I wouldn't be heat broken cutting them for something else.
I have tested the BW tokens vs RG Tron matchup considerably and I have came to the following conclusion. Either punt the matchup or be ready to devote a significant amount of your sideboard to deal with the deck. It is so awful that a few cards won't work. There are no silver bullets for that matchup. Any Tron player worth his salt will see us play white and bring in Nature's Claim against us as a preemptive move against Stony Silence. Which means we need multiple answers every game which means a significant amount of cards brought in for the matchup.
This is my current sideboard plan:
-4 Bitterblossom (Not enough pressure early enough)
-2 Dismember (Doesn't kill enough)
-2 Timely Reinforcements (Won't fire for tokens)
-1 Sword (Useless)
-2 Zealous Persecution (Not enough kick)
+2 Hero of Bladehold (Once it lands it can end the game very quickly. Something that has to happen.)
+3 Duress (Getting rid of their artifacts/eggs is a key to victory)
+3 Stony Silence (Slows them down enough to allow us to finish the game quickly.)
+2 Crumble to Dust (Neutering tron is a key to victory)
+1 Wear // Tear (Killing maps is a key to victory)
Notice I said that they were a key to victory. Only one of these feats is not enough. Multiple things need to happen to pull off the win.
Other cards I have tried and deemed not worth it:
Nevermore (A little too slow and does not advance the game state fast enough)
Runed Halo (Targeting us is not the problem)
Counterspells, from the U splash. (Didn't advance my board state fast enough)
I am interested in potentially testing Seek for this matchup to grab Ugin (and always Ugin).
Modern
URB Grixis Delver
GWB Abzan Company
RWB Mardu Burn
WB Martyr Proc
Just for the record, there's a few of us that have tried the Red splash and aren't crazy about it. It just didn't improve the matchups I want enough.
I'm also realizing that Tron matchups really want Secure the Wastes. The problem is Tron's gameplan is to **** up permanents and that's all we have. With something like Secure the Wastes and Obzedat, we can avoid playing into their payoff cards.
This is basically what I've found as well. I GQ is great for their 1-of lands, and stony shuts down all their exile except Bog and Sugical. To be fair though, their processing of exiled cards makes for a fun Murderous Cut and Lingering Souls subgame. I'm curious where people are at on Zealous Persecution in the MU. Obviously it hits all their Scions, but I'm finding I just want more removal. It's probably just a matter of needing a sweeper.
R8whackR
WUBGAtraxa Stax-Superfriends *Under Construction*WUBG
I hate to be one of those instant dismissers! Just thoughts. Please test it. I'm not sure this fits into our token theme. It's not pumped by intangible virtue so remains 1 toughness. Our fliers are plenty, cheaper, and bigger plus they have vigilance. Plus the sacrifice gives choice to the opponent rather than our target, which is weaker. It has value though. May help CoCo more though.
If we are looking for a less black intensive 2/1 flyer with an ETB effect that really helps shore up matchups like Tron, then let it have flash: Aven Mindcensor. Love it in CoCo vs Tron with Fulminator Mages and baby Lily.
Modern
URB Grixis Delver
GWB Abzan Company
RWB Mardu Burn
WB Martyr Proc
As we continue to explore splashes, with green seeming to have the best synthesis, I'm really considering what from my CoCo deck that's been proven works here, especially sideboard, and especially if we are willing to explore creatures 4CMC or bigger. While i think our best strategy is always fast clock and pressure, I think we do have the resilience to make it to 5cmc creatures ... Possibly (the challenge with Obzedat).
Linvala, Keeper of Silence is an all star one of in CoCo, despite the fact CoCo whifs on her.
Does Scooze have a place in our green splash sideboard? Or does Relic with the card draw advantage outweigh the potential life gain?
Modern
URB Grixis Delver
GWB Abzan Company
RWB Mardu Burn
WB Martyr Proc
R8whackR
WUBGAtraxa Stax-Superfriends *Under Construction*WUBG
I played against it a few times last night in leagues and didn't have any problem with them. Just go as wide as possible while applying pressure, save Path for Ulamog, chump big dudes if necessary and collect your match points.
So the trend I noticed was that we want black early with a guaranteed third turn white and I could guarantee the white by turn three but I could only guarantee black turn 1 or red turn 1, but not both. Sometimes, the best play was to have turn 1 red mana to kill something on the draw and then turn 2 black mana for discard and then turn three triple white. When I wanted bolt, I also wanted to cast Lingering Souls or my walker, so that was also a problem. I suspect that with enough testing, folks who play with Faithless looting will observe the same thing. Craig Wescoe also says as much when he talks about splashing red for Crumble to Dust. Was the deck better against Merfolk? Absolutely. My win rate against Merfolk was in the 70-90% pre-board. I mean, we could pretty much kick ass against any aggro deck out there and out play them. Against Jund? What should have been a "sign here man and I will buy you a beer to assuage the pain in your ass" became a struggle.
Maybe what we are really noticing is that red splash works well if you have a primarily aggro meta. If you have a more combo meta (I usually end up playing a lot of Tier 1 and 2 combo/tron builds), then it isn't as effective.
I played 2 games against a tron deck last week. Game 1 went to him. Game 2, I won. I basically boarded in Stony Silence, Duress, Pithing Needle. I never say needle or Silence, but I did see my discards. Those and exiles held them off. He used an O-Stone, which I followed up with a Secure the Wastes.
Secure the Wastes was the Ace in the Hole. I cast it for 4 and it was gg. Admittedly, he didn't get natural tron, but the fact that the discard effects and Wastes were so powerful says something.
This is my current sideboard plan:
-4 Bitterblossom (Not enough pressure early enough)
-2 Dismember (Doesn't kill enough)
-2 Timely Reinforcements (Won't fire for tokens)
-1 Sword (Useless)
-2 Zealous Persecution (Not enough kick)
+2 Hero of Bladehold (Once it lands it can end the game very quickly. Something that has to happen.)
+3 Duress (Getting rid of their artifacts/eggs is a key to victory)
+3 Stony Silence (Slows them down enough to allow us to finish the game quickly.)
+2 Crumble to Dust (Neutering tron is a key to victory)
+1 Wear // Tear (Killing maps is a key to victory)
Notice I said that they were a key to victory. Only one of these feats is not enough. Multiple things need to happen to pull off the win.
Other cards I have tried and deemed not worth it:
Nevermore (A little too slow and does not advance the game state fast enough)
Runed Halo (Targeting us is not the problem)
Counterspells, from the U splash. (Didn't advance my board state fast enough)
I am interested in potentially testing Seek for this matchup to grab Ugin (and always Ugin).
Seek could be super good actually.