What are our thoughts on Tireless Tracker? I’m speaking predominantly about it as a one or two-of in the SB. When would we want it if we were to side it? Just for games where we want grind? What about against big mana?
And now, for thoroughness’ sake, what do we think about it as a one-of in the MB? I think it fits our strategy just fine. It’s an independently powerful card that generates value, sometimes absurd amount of value. There’s just no room for it. I feel like that’s the only thing holding us back from playing him, albeit that’s the only reason needed. There’s just no room. He would be an absolutely disgusting cascade though; just saying.
Im not trying to be avant-garde or anything here. Honestly I’m just a little salty that I keep losing to Junk and I’m a little jealous of this weapon in particular. I also just like bouncing ideas off y’all. I value the conglomeration of opinions on this thread quite a bit.
My main issue with the card is that it is very mana intensive to get going - and with the 4x four drops and lots of 3 drop value cards we have, I find it tough to get the advantage out of Tireless Tracker that you want. Like say you have a K Command in hand and a clue on board - with 5 mana. Would you rather K Command back a 2 drop and play it - or crack a clue and hope to draw into what?
I do like the card though - don't get me wrong - I just feel like it is often gonna force me to use my mana in a weird way if I want / need to crack the clues, thus not generating the true advantage the card is trying to make you generate. At the least I think some of the 3 drops in the list has got to go (possibly to the sideboard) if you want to run Tireless Tracker. Mind you - the card is almost a death sentence for Lantern if you get to play it. So depending on your meta it can be an all star.
With regards to Junk - of course it can be a sideboard card for that matchup too if you feel like you need it. Personally I think I'd rather run Olivia Voldaren as a way of breaking that matchup + 3 scoozes. Olivia seems to be doing everything we need to be doing in that matchup (assuming you can find some way of dealing with their PWs).
You are Talking about drawing tracker and kolaghans command, wich is already crazy good, but my line of play would be (in top deck mode) drawstep discard, return best thread (bbe), and crack clue. This amount of card advantage is an easy win.
I'm actually talking about having the Tracker in play. But I know what you mean.
Clues are not really arkward to use, and you can save them until you need ca and not tempo. There are allways turns were you cant use your mana or you need to dig for an answer.
This is the situation I'm mainly talking about. It might be that I'm simply not using Tracker that well, which is not unthinkable. Clearly late in the game, when the board is stalled - Tracker is a great draw. The reason I suggested Olivia instead is that there's just so many games where, if she goes unanswered, you've pretty much won the game. I even think she's great against various creature based aggro decks (humans, affinity, etc.) - where Tracker would not be my go to threat. This is where Tracker would be too slow but Olivia should be enough to win the game after 2-3 turns in play (provided you can survive the turn where you cast her ofc.)
How do you guys feel about the criticism about lists and the evaluation process here?
On Facebook a few days ago, some guy posted a list he won a pptq with, it only ran 3 discard in the main board and 2x rabblemasters, when I said I wouldn't suggest any jund player to run that in any situation he got a little defensive and said it was a metw call because he wanted aggression on games 1 and to become more reactive if needed postboard
He basically made a Facebook post kinda passively aggressively saying no card choice is wrong in jund
...am I going crazy here, guys? I know there's some respectable choices I won't always agree with, but 3x mainboard discard is fundamentally wrong, right?
Should we be validating everyones choices? Is there a thing as being too critical?
I want someone to tell me if my deck list sucks.
It doesn't have anything to do with how good you are with the deck, it seems more about just good deck building and theory.
I'm liking the discussion this past month in this thread, I'm just wondering if we should be validating more peoples choices and card choice decisions
I saw the post you're referring to. While I agree with you personally, they also aren't wrong. I feel that the truly offensive part was your tone really. I've done some crazy things with my traditional Jund list to attack specific metagames when things lean towards a particular archetype too heavily (at major events). If I can damn near guarantee what a large portion of the metagame will be, I build my deck accordingly. In this vein, watching and playing online has done me a tremendous service. That doesn't mean I throw all common-sense, logic and experience out the window, but I definitely become far more flexible on what I'm willing to sleeve for my main. It's often why I ask about specific cards in different forums than posts my lists. I already know from past experience that my lists would just get crapped on even if they were only a theoretical start point for a particular tourney I'm working toward. A lot of the decks I like to play can take on many configurations because I used to be a brewer/tinkerer. I'm obviously off brewing in most formats now largely due to time constraints but remaining flexible has led me to some interesting ideas over the last few years. Some were obvious. Some weren't. That said, I feel a little differently from Aazadan. I really do feel that being able to get the most from your deck in every game is just as important as deckbuilding. That's also why I focus so much on knowing how to sideboard appropriately as well.
I think that page is just frustrating me from all the influx of so many new players with wacky ideas. But yeah, you're completely right.
Olivia feels like a very expensive alternative to Grim Lavamancer and Last Hope nowadays. There's now the benefit from those two previous cards being cascaded into.
Olivia is almost a 6 drop when you think about it. She becomes more fragile with bolt back in the meta. 4x mana is also a lot against a deck that can swarm a board fast. It probably means my opponent wasn't doing so fantastic
Against grindy decks, she dies easily. A tracker gets out of hand if she isn't killed fast, either. What makes Tracker nice is that on turn 4, she leaves behind at least 1x card to replace her, 2x if you play a fetch and the opponent has no answer that turn. Cascade is a plus.
If tokens and lingering souls got out of hand, I guess there's merit to playing Olivia in the board, which means I'd have to go heavy on grim and Last Hope, too.
I think Tracker and Hazoret are the cards to play if you want to break the mirror, though.
EDIT: Reflector mage on Olivia would be disastrous
Deck ran smooth as butter today. Went 3-0 in FNM in three straight 2-0 games.
Beat Lantern, Ponza, Bant Spirits
I was on the 24 land, 12 1-drop list and I gotta say having an abundance of 1 mana spells felt really good, especially when I got to double spell on turn 3, early and often.
Having the additional push and terminate solves a lot of problems.
Two grudges and an additional Pulse from the side made Lantern easy despite cutting to a single Kommand in the main.
He said the deck looks good and said his only real objection was not having a 4th manland. I thought maybe that would be too greedy, but maybe he's right? We all were playing with that last land being a 2nd forest or fetch. Worth a try?
I poorly explained to him about the scooze in the side
Really glad the deck is performing well for everyone. It seems like this list is getting good feedback
What are our thoughts on Tireless Tracker? I’m speaking predominantly about it as a one or two-of in the SB. When would we want it if we were to side it? Just for games where we want grind? What about against big mana?
And now, for thoroughness’ sake, what do we think about it as a one-of in the MB? I think it fits our strategy just fine. It’s an independently powerful card that generates value, sometimes absurd amount of value. There’s just no room for it. I feel like that’s the only thing holding us back from playing him, albeit that’s the only reason needed. There’s just no room. He would be an absolutely disgusting cascade though; just saying.
Im not trying to be avant-garde or anything here. Honestly I’m just a little salty that I keep losing to Junk and I’m a little jealous of this weapon in particular. I also just like bouncing ideas off y’all. I value the conglomeration of opinions on this thread quite a bit.
I play 1 Tireless Tracker in the side. It comes in over a Tarmogoyf if I know there's going to be strong GY hate. Sometimes over a discard spell in a game that's going long.
I don't know about MB though, I think we have more efficient threats that we want access to in most situations. What are you proposing cutting for it?
Reid does look like jws pushing too far in the 3 cmc category
Look at his mana base, it's basically the base this whole thread decided on in day 1.
He's playing push and 1x seize in the side, which makes me wonder if his main configuration needs work
I know I'm alone in this crusade, but these games from Reid were a perfect showcase as to why I'm not a fan of Inquisition of Kozilek right now. At several points in his games they missed, and if he was running a split like I'm suggesting, he would have been in the 25%-75% range depending on the exact situation to have hit something good (depending on which card he drew over the IoK) rather than have his IoK effectively do nothing.
I play 4/2 split and it works good for me. I still think that I want more copies of IoK than Thoughtseize to have better game against aggressive decks but additional copy of Thoughtseize helps against other strategies where IoK has less targets.
I definitely agree on 2 Thoughtseize, my argument is simply that you want to consider a couple Duress over IoK. They're dead less often, and it broadens the range of things you can hit. I use 1 IoK, 2 Duress, 1 Despise, 2 Thoughtseize, 2 Collected Brutality right now. It has been working very well for me, even the Despise which is easily the most questionable card in that list but I like having another way to hit BBE, Primeval Titan, Tasigur, and so on.
Even if you don't like the cards I'm running I think a 3/3 split on IoK and Thoughtseize is the way to go right now.
I continue to be so impressed with this deck. I just beat a deck, while not meta, was so heavily slanted to destroy fair matchups and have overwhelming 2 for 1's.
It was some standard take on Temur with Supreme Verdicts, at least 2x copies of Sphinx Revelation, Kitchen Finks, Resto Angel and Thragtusk.
I literally managed to power games 2 and 3 past him. The terminates have been relevant in testing.
I'm really messing around with the sideboard, but had a nice time with
I'm just playing around with the sideboard. I thought Hazoret was what I wanted, but I was extremely impressed with Tracker.
I'm tempted not having the 2nd Kitchen Finks since I have Tracker for fair matches, and I'm wondering if I need THAT much life gain against burn.
I see a lot of merit in having a pulse in this sideboard.
The 2nd Anger is just because I'm only hedging for Dredge and Hollow one with that.
Truth be told, outside of the essentials like Grudge, Grim and Fulminator, I have no idea what the sideboard should look like.
The curve's, early game and opening hands have been fantastic. Having turn 1 removal and getting to play a 2 drop creature with removal on turn 3 continues to be amazing.
Chopping to 1x K Command has reduced those awful feel bad moments when you see two early in a game. In fact, just seeing less 3x drops has been a relief.
I'm convinced at this point MTGSalvtions list is better tuned than the lists the pros and reddit/facebook users are posting.
I'm right there with ya, Siegel. I think we're getting it down, and I'm pretty excited about it. Hoping to sweept FNM tonight.
I'm all for trying the fourth manland (a Treetop for me, without a doubt). With that said, I was digging the 9th fetch. It made my Pushes and Lavaman better (but probably much more so in my mind than in reality), and would make Tracker better too. Still, It's doubtful that advantage will outweigh having a trampling 3/3 for GC, who, by the way, is also very good against Souls.
-----I am definitely going to jam at least one Tracker in the SB at FNM tonight. The question is, what other grindpiece should I jam it alongside? My Olivia Voldaren? Should I buy a Hazoret the Fervent? Or should I buy the second Tireless Tracker?
And Aazadan, that's the problem. I'm not proposing we cut anything for it, because I can't see cutting anything. I'm so happy (FINALLY!!!) with the deck right now, and I don't want to go and screw it up. I mean, for fun's sake, what would I cut if I had a gun to my head? Probably the Lavaman that replaced the 3rd Fatal Push in my list, or a Terminate. The prior would screw up my nice new curve, and the latter would just piss me off. I've been so excited to have the second Terminate in my deck again. It makes me feel very comfortable, and I don't plan on getting rid of it. The second Maelstrom Pulse in the MB was a comforting thought too, but it's so clunky that it's been relegated to the SB, and I think that's the perfect spot for it, just like that 3rd Scooze. They're there when I need them, but they're not there to gum up the works when I don't.
I am a big fan of Kolaghan's Command and have been happy to only play one Liliana, the Last Hope in the 75, specifically in the SB, to free up room for 2x K-Command. I'm really surprised that it's even on the table now, but I'm really considering moving Liliana tLH to the MB to help with the Junk MU. I didn't realize how good she was in the mirror 'til my Junk buddy kept killing my Bobs with her. It hurts a lot. And she's even better against Junk than she is against Jund. If I do decide to go ahead and try it, do y'all think I should move the K-Command to the side, or instead just play the 3rd Ancient Grudge? It has to be one of the two. I want my chances of beating Affinity and Lantern to be as high as possible.
If I had to guess what decks will for sure be present tonight, I would guess the following:
Junk
Grishoalbrand
Humans
Affinity
Lantern
Infect
Apart from that I have no idea. Based on that guess, and if I keep 2x K-Command MB and Lili in the side, I think I will sideboard something like this (keep in mind my Lavaman is MB):
I continue to be so impressed with this deck. I just beat a deck, while not meta, was so heavily slanted to destroy fair matchups and have overwhelming 2 for 1's.
It was some standard take on Temur with Supreme Verdicts, at least 2x copies of Sphinx Revelation, Kitchen Finks, Resto Angel and Thragtusk.
I literally managed to power games 2 and 3 past him. The terminates have been relevant in testing.
I'm really messing around with the sideboard, but had a nice time with
I'm just playing around with the sideboard. I thought Hazoret was what I wanted, but I was extremely impressed with Tracker.
I'm tempted not having the 2nd Kitchen Finks since I have Tracker for fair matches, and I'm wondering if I need THAT much life gain against burn.
I see a lot of merit in having a pulse in this sideboard.
The 2nd Anger is just because I'm only hedging for Dredge and Hollow one with that.
Truth be told, outside of the essentials like Grudge, Grim and Fulminator, I have no idea what the sideboard should look like.
The curve's, early game and opening hands have been fantastic. Having turn 1 removal and getting to play a 2 drop creature with removal on turn 3 continues to be amazing.
Chopping to 1x K Command has reduced those awful feel bad moments when you see two early in a game. In fact, just seeing less 3x drops has been a relief.
I'm convinced at this point MTGSalvtions list is better tuned than the lists the pros and reddit/facebook users are posting.
I love that 60 for sure. Have you been testing online or in paper? How has four manlands been? I'm always a little hesitant of awkward openers when we have 4 tapped sources, but all the one drops should help alleviate that it seems.
Just one more question do you think 4 manlands isn't too much for 24 lands? Not just because manlands are more mana hungry but do you feel confident with just one basic forest despite so many FoR and Blood Moons are running around?
You can have it all:
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Blood Crypt
1 Stomping Ground
1 Twilight Mire
2 Raging Ravine
1 Treetop Village
1 Hissing Quagmire
3 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Mountain
Thats 18 black, 15 green, 15 red, 4 creature lands, and a bunch of basics in 24 lands.
Reid Duke himself suggested the 4th manland. I don't think it popped up that many times in my matches, and I didn't have scenarios where I had it and Ravine in my opener in my hand. I'm not 100% endorsing the 4th creatureland, but Reid himself recommended it so having you guys test it on MTGO or at your FNMS would help improve our collected research and testing.
I have the wife around all weekend, so I have super limited testing : /
My results at my FNM with the clunkier BBE Jund has been poor, going 2-2. I got top 8 at that 1K basically copying and pasting Reids list, but my FNM results this past month have been poor.
I'm not completely sure about if we should be going 1/1 on K-Command and Last Hope, or going 2x K-Command and 1x Last Hope in the side. Hoping you guys keep testing that. If your meta is affinity/lantern heavy, obviously that answer is clear. I'm looking for input from you guys in an open field.
I do like having the diversity in our cards, too. Last Hope is a win-con, grave recursion, token killer. K-Command will go back into my main if and when Affinity and Lantern recover from the meta shift.
Tracker was the bomb in matchups I sided her in. I think I got 4 or 5 clues in a game against my opponent who slanted his whole deck to beat fair good stuff decks. Whether Hazoret would have been just as good, I don't know.
The 4th manland instead of a mountain or forest? I kinda have to defer that to your discretion. If you're going to a non-fnm tournament, definitely play what you're comfortable with, but if it's just an FNM, why not try the treetop? I plan to on Monday for my FNM.
Piney, I don't really recommend Olivia unless you're absolutely sure you're going to use her and she'll wreck your meta.
I always feel hesitant to tell people to buy non-cheap cards unless it's mandatory. Hmmm, it's up to you about purchasing a 2nd Tracker or Hazoret. If you have a ton of money and not on a budget, sure, go for it. I have an entire tool-box of GBx staples, but I also spend too much on this game.
My sideboard isn't at all what I'm endorsing to people, although the side Scavenging Ooze has been pretty awesome as a utility/grave/mirror tool.
Yeah, you're right. 2x K-Command would be better. I'm just being biased because I'm pissed I keep losing to Junk. Hopeful my two Trackers (I have some store credit I think will cover the 2nd) will help shore up the MU enough.
I think Olivia is actually decent in my local meta, but I don't think I'd ever bring her to an open field these days. And even with Olivia being good in my local meta, after having Tracker create insurmountable CA against me too many times, I think I'd rather run her than Oliva. Plus she's a better clock than Olivia for those MU's I just really have to get in there.
A SB card I'm excited about and wouldn't think I would be is Abrupt Decay. At a glance it seems lackluster, but the more I thought about what MU's I'd bring it in for, the more exciting it got. It's great against the mirror, it's an extra piece of removal against Infect and Affinity and Humans, it's obviously good against Lantern and Bogles, it's good against Storm now that they're boarding in Pyromancer Ascension, and it's decent against Mardu Pyromancer because it can hit Lili and Blood Moon as well as Pyromancer. Oh yeah, Fish too. I'm really digging it.
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Mainly online. I'm getting closer to graduating for my masters and working on school work and job hunting.
I do recommend jund players trying my 60.
Reid suggested the 4th creatureland, so I certainly think it has merit. I played just 4x matches on mtgo, ended up winning, the value is too much.
Bbe, tracker and Bob is hilarious value in fair matchups.
My current mainboard is pretty close to your's but I'm going to give your 60 a spin on MTGO if I can make time between class work.
I like Treetop a lot individually, it's very useful and has pulled it's weight well. But I cut it when I went from 25 to 24 land. If Reid and yourself have had good luck with the 4th I'll certainly give it a try. I always just ran 3 Ravine with 24 lands traditionally.
Tracker has to be insane in grindy fair matchups. What kinds of cuts did you make to fit her in the SB? Have you missed Spellbomb?
I think 1x Kommand and 1x LtLH is a fine split to start with. There's certainly times when both cards range from amazing to meh.
Also random thought, I just can't justify some of these lists still running Dreadbore. Jace isn't the boogeyman we thought he could of been, or atleast not yet since the right shell is still a mystery.
Awesome that my lower to the ground approach keeps being impressive, am also pretty sure that this is the maindeck we should run. Ever since EctoMark made the good reasoning behind it I never played a clunkier 25 land list again and immediatly tweaked on the approach until I proposed the 60 a few pages back. Seems many people having good results with it, thats great. I think it just solves many problems the 25 land lists have for the overall format, and thats why I tweaked it like that. 12 CMC 1 interactions spells are just soo good, and am really happy with them. Can only recommend this suite for everyone.
I am sceptical on the fourth manland in a 24 land base. I am really sure we should do this. Honestly, in the recent times, espcially in the times before Probe was banned and Push was printed, we played a standard 24 land build including 3 Ravines and max 2 four drops. So that means we actually had a little bit of a smaller curve back then. I think you can agree on me that back then nobody wanted to play 4 Ravines generally, as it is just too greedy.
Now I am not quite getting the idea of including a fourth manland in a now slightly higher curve. For me the higher curve is actually a reason to not include a fourth manland. In that sense it doesn't make sense to me.
The one aspect that matters though is the speed of the format. Back then Infect was among the best decks, which meant the format was much faster. It seems the format is slowing down a bit now, which could be a good reason to try the fourth manland. After all they are great in the mirror. And Treetop is great.
However, if we want to do it, then we have to cut the second Forest for sure. And I am not sure if I want to do that yet. But its tempting to find out.
Since I am actually curious about the issue and on Reid's opinion, I am giving Treetop a try, because the heck why not. This is my updated list for the upcoming week:
The things which are in my opinion flexible in this list, are the following things:
Landbase: The fourth basic can be a ninth fetchland or as I will try it now, a Treetop.
Creatures: With the high amount of one mana spells I am happy with the creature suite, the only thing doable is adding an Ooze maybe.
Spells: I would recommend going for that approach, I personally love the spellsuite as soon as I touched it. It interesting to consider - 1 Command and +1 LtLH, but I like 2 Commands for now, especially with only 1 Grudge.
Sideboard: I honestly am considering the third Fulminator to be flexible, maybe its a good idea to cut it for a Hazoret. Golgari Charm could be a second Grudge or a Maelstrom Pulse and EE could be an Anger. Grafdigger's Cage or Ooze could be one more Spellbomb. The rest is kinda fixed for me.
All in all, a template for my approach could be this:
24 lands: 3-4 manlands (will see what turns out to be more right)
14-15 creatures (only 11 one mana spells if 15)
22 Noncreature Spells:
11-12 one mana spells (4/2 discard, 3/3 bolt/push, if 15 creatures then cut a Push supposedly)
3 hard removal (2 terminate and 1 Pulse)
3-4 flexible tools (1-2 Command (only 1 if you play LtLH main, 1 Decay, 1 Pulse)
4-5 Lili PWs.
Sideboard:
2-3 Fulminator
3 GY hate pieces ( if 3 Ooze main, only 2 can work)
3 extra removal/sweeper for smaller creatures (EE/Anger, LtLH, 1 Grim)
My main issue with the card is that it is very mana intensive to get going - and with the 4x four drops and lots of 3 drop value cards we have, I find it tough to get the advantage out of Tireless Tracker that you want. Like say you have a K Command in hand and a clue on board - with 5 mana. Would you rather K Command back a 2 drop and play it - or crack a clue and hope to draw into what?
I do like the card though - don't get me wrong - I just feel like it is often gonna force me to use my mana in a weird way if I want / need to crack the clues, thus not generating the true advantage the card is trying to make you generate. At the least I think some of the 3 drops in the list has got to go (possibly to the sideboard) if you want to run Tireless Tracker. Mind you - the card is almost a death sentence for Lantern if you get to play it. So depending on your meta it can be an all star.
With regards to Junk - of course it can be a sideboard card for that matchup too if you feel like you need it. Personally I think I'd rather run Olivia Voldaren as a way of breaking that matchup + 3 scoozes. Olivia seems to be doing everything we need to be doing in that matchup (assuming you can find some way of dealing with their PWs).
Totally agree.[/quote]
I'm actually talking about having the Tracker in play. But I know what you mean.
This is the situation I'm mainly talking about. It might be that I'm simply not using Tracker that well, which is not unthinkable. Clearly late in the game, when the board is stalled - Tracker is a great draw. The reason I suggested Olivia instead is that there's just so many games where, if she goes unanswered, you've pretty much won the game. I even think she's great against various creature based aggro decks (humans, affinity, etc.) - where Tracker would not be my go to threat. This is where Tracker would be too slow but Olivia should be enough to win the game after 2-3 turns in play (provided you can survive the turn where you cast her ofc.)
I think that page is just frustrating me from all the influx of so many new players with wacky ideas. But yeah, you're completely right.
Olivia is almost a 6 drop when you think about it. She becomes more fragile with bolt back in the meta. 4x mana is also a lot against a deck that can swarm a board fast. It probably means my opponent wasn't doing so fantastic
Against grindy decks, she dies easily. A tracker gets out of hand if she isn't killed fast, either. What makes Tracker nice is that on turn 4, she leaves behind at least 1x card to replace her, 2x if you play a fetch and the opponent has no answer that turn. Cascade is a plus.
If tokens and lingering souls got out of hand, I guess there's merit to playing Olivia in the board, which means I'd have to go heavy on grim and Last Hope, too.
I think Tracker and Hazoret are the cards to play if you want to break the mirror, though.
EDIT: Reflector mage on Olivia would be disastrous
Beat Lantern, Ponza, Bant Spirits
I was on the 24 land, 12 1-drop list and I gotta say having an abundance of 1 mana spells felt really good, especially when I got to double spell on turn 3, early and often.
Having the additional push and terminate solves a lot of problems.
Two grudges and an additional Pulse from the side made Lantern easy despite cutting to a single Kommand in the main.
He said the deck looks good and said his only real objection was not having a 4th manland. I thought maybe that would be too greedy, but maybe he's right? We all were playing with that last land being a 2nd forest or fetch. Worth a try?
I poorly explained to him about the scooze in the side
Really glad the deck is performing well for everyone. It seems like this list is getting good feedback
I play 1 Tireless Tracker in the side. It comes in over a Tarmogoyf if I know there's going to be strong GY hate. Sometimes over a discard spell in a game that's going long.
I don't know about MB though, I think we have more efficient threats that we want access to in most situations. What are you proposing cutting for it?
I know I'm alone in this crusade, but these games from Reid were a perfect showcase as to why I'm not a fan of Inquisition of Kozilek right now. At several points in his games they missed, and if he was running a split like I'm suggesting, he would have been in the 25%-75% range depending on the exact situation to have hit something good (depending on which card he drew over the IoK) rather than have his IoK effectively do nothing.
I definitely agree on 2 Thoughtseize, my argument is simply that you want to consider a couple Duress over IoK. They're dead less often, and it broadens the range of things you can hit. I use 1 IoK, 2 Duress, 1 Despise, 2 Thoughtseize, 2 Collected Brutality right now. It has been working very well for me, even the Despise which is easily the most questionable card in that list but I like having another way to hit BBE, Primeval Titan, Tasigur, and so on.
Even if you don't like the cards I'm running I think a 3/3 split on IoK and Thoughtseize is the way to go right now.
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
It was some standard take on Temur with Supreme Verdicts, at least 2x copies of Sphinx Revelation, Kitchen Finks, Resto Angel and Thragtusk.
I literally managed to power games 2 and 3 past him. The terminates have been relevant in testing.
I'm really messing around with the sideboard, but had a nice time with
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Dark Confidant
2x Scavenging Ooze
4x Bloodbraid Elf
Spells (23)
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Thoughtseize
3x Lightning Bolt
3x Fatal Push
1x Abrupt Decay
2x Terminate
1x Kolaghan's Command
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Liliana, the Last Hope
4x Liliana of the Veil
4x Verdant Catacombs
3x Bloodstained Mire
1x Wooded Foothills
2x Overgrown Tomb
1x Blood Crypt
1x Stomping Ground
1x Twilight Mire
4x Blackcleave Cliffs
3x Raging Ravine
1x Treetop Village
2x Swamp
1x Forest
3x Fulminator Mage
1x Kitchen Finks
2x Collective Brutality
2x Ancient Grudge
1x Grim Lavamancer
2x Anger of the Gods
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Scavenging Ooze
2x Tireless Tracker
I'm just playing around with the sideboard. I thought Hazoret was what I wanted, but I was extremely impressed with Tracker.
I'm tempted not having the 2nd Kitchen Finks since I have Tracker for fair matches, and I'm wondering if I need THAT much life gain against burn.
I see a lot of merit in having a pulse in this sideboard.
The 2nd Anger is just because I'm only hedging for Dredge and Hollow one with that.
Truth be told, outside of the essentials like Grudge, Grim and Fulminator, I have no idea what the sideboard should look like.
The curve's, early game and opening hands have been fantastic. Having turn 1 removal and getting to play a 2 drop creature with removal on turn 3 continues to be amazing.
Chopping to 1x K Command has reduced those awful feel bad moments when you see two early in a game. In fact, just seeing less 3x drops has been a relief.
I'm convinced at this point MTGSalvtions list is better tuned than the lists the pros and reddit/facebook users are posting.
I'm right there with ya, Siegel. I think we're getting it down, and I'm pretty excited about it. Hoping to sweept FNM tonight.
I'm all for trying the fourth manland (a Treetop for me, without a doubt). With that said, I was digging the 9th fetch. It made my Pushes and Lavaman better (but probably much more so in my mind than in reality), and would make Tracker better too. Still, It's doubtful that advantage will outweigh having a trampling 3/3 for GC, who, by the way, is also very good against Souls.
-----I am definitely going to jam at least one Tracker in the SB at FNM tonight. The question is, what other grindpiece should I jam it alongside? My Olivia Voldaren? Should I buy a Hazoret the Fervent? Or should I buy the second Tireless Tracker?
And Aazadan, that's the problem. I'm not proposing we cut anything for it, because I can't see cutting anything. I'm so happy (FINALLY!!!) with the deck right now, and I don't want to go and screw it up. I mean, for fun's sake, what would I cut if I had a gun to my head? Probably the Lavaman that replaced the 3rd Fatal Push in my list, or a Terminate. The prior would screw up my nice new curve, and the latter would just piss me off. I've been so excited to have the second Terminate in my deck again. It makes me feel very comfortable, and I don't plan on getting rid of it. The second Maelstrom Pulse in the MB was a comforting thought too, but it's so clunky that it's been relegated to the SB, and I think that's the perfect spot for it, just like that 3rd Scooze. They're there when I need them, but they're not there to gum up the works when I don't.
I am a big fan of Kolaghan's Command and have been happy to only play one Liliana, the Last Hope in the 75, specifically in the SB, to free up room for 2x K-Command. I'm really surprised that it's even on the table now, but I'm really considering moving Liliana tLH to the MB to help with the Junk MU. I didn't realize how good she was in the mirror 'til my Junk buddy kept killing my Bobs with her. It hurts a lot. And she's even better against Junk than she is against Jund. If I do decide to go ahead and try it, do y'all think I should move the K-Command to the side, or instead just play the 3rd Ancient Grudge? It has to be one of the two. I want my chances of beating Affinity and Lantern to be as high as possible.
If I had to guess what decks will for sure be present tonight, I would guess the following:
Junk
Grishoalbrand
Humans
Affinity
Lantern
Infect
Apart from that I have no idea. Based on that guess, and if I keep 2x K-Command MB and Lili in the side, I think I will sideboard something like this (keep in mind my Lavaman is MB):
2x Fulminator Mage
2x Tireless Tracker
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Liliana, the Last Hope
1x Maelstrom Pulse
2x Ancient Grudge
2x Collective Brutality
1x Golgari Charm
1x Abrupt Decay
1x Nihil Spellbomb
1x Grafdigger's Cage
BRGJUNDGRB---BRHOLLOW ONERB---BGELVESGB---BRGLIVING ENDGRB---GWBOGLESWG
EDH:
BRGKARRTHUS, TYRANT OF JUNDGRB
I love that 60 for sure. Have you been testing online or in paper? How has four manlands been? I'm always a little hesitant of awkward openers when we have 4 tapped sources, but all the one drops should help alleviate that it seems.
BG/x BG
I do recommend jund players trying my 60.
Reid suggested the 4th creatureland, so I certainly think it has merit. I played just 4x matches on mtgo, ended up winning, the value is too much.
Bbe, tracker and Bob is hilarious value in fair matchups.
You can have it all:
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Blood Crypt
1 Stomping Ground
1 Twilight Mire
2 Raging Ravine
1 Treetop Village
1 Hissing Quagmire
3 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Mountain
Thats 18 black, 15 green, 15 red, 4 creature lands, and a bunch of basics in 24 lands.
I have the wife around all weekend, so I have super limited testing : /
My results at my FNM with the clunkier BBE Jund has been poor, going 2-2. I got top 8 at that 1K basically copying and pasting Reids list, but my FNM results this past month have been poor.
I'm not completely sure about if we should be going 1/1 on K-Command and Last Hope, or going 2x K-Command and 1x Last Hope in the side. Hoping you guys keep testing that. If your meta is affinity/lantern heavy, obviously that answer is clear. I'm looking for input from you guys in an open field.
I do like having the diversity in our cards, too. Last Hope is a win-con, grave recursion, token killer. K-Command will go back into my main if and when Affinity and Lantern recover from the meta shift.
Tracker was the bomb in matchups I sided her in. I think I got 4 or 5 clues in a game against my opponent who slanted his whole deck to beat fair good stuff decks. Whether Hazoret would have been just as good, I don't know.
The 4th manland instead of a mountain or forest? I kinda have to defer that to your discretion. If you're going to a non-fnm tournament, definitely play what you're comfortable with, but if it's just an FNM, why not try the treetop? I plan to on Monday for my FNM.
Piney, I don't really recommend Olivia unless you're absolutely sure you're going to use her and she'll wreck your meta.
I always feel hesitant to tell people to buy non-cheap cards unless it's mandatory. Hmmm, it's up to you about purchasing a 2nd Tracker or Hazoret. If you have a ton of money and not on a budget, sure, go for it. I have an entire tool-box of GBx staples, but I also spend too much on this game.
My sideboard isn't at all what I'm endorsing to people, although the side Scavenging Ooze has been pretty awesome as a utility/grave/mirror tool.
I think Olivia is actually decent in my local meta, but I don't think I'd ever bring her to an open field these days. And even with Olivia being good in my local meta, after having Tracker create insurmountable CA against me too many times, I think I'd rather run her than Oliva. Plus she's a better clock than Olivia for those MU's I just really have to get in there.
A SB card I'm excited about and wouldn't think I would be is Abrupt Decay. At a glance it seems lackluster, but the more I thought about what MU's I'd bring it in for, the more exciting it got. It's great against the mirror, it's an extra piece of removal against Infect and Affinity and Humans, it's obviously good against Lantern and Bogles, it's good against Storm now that they're boarding in Pyromancer Ascension, and it's decent against Mardu Pyromancer because it can hit Lili and Blood Moon as well as Pyromancer. Oh yeah, Fish too. I'm really digging it.
BRGJUNDGRB---BRHOLLOW ONERB---BGELVESGB---BRGLIVING ENDGRB---GWBOGLESWG
EDH:
BRGKARRTHUS, TYRANT OF JUNDGRB
My current mainboard is pretty close to your's but I'm going to give your 60 a spin on MTGO if I can make time between class work.
I like Treetop a lot individually, it's very useful and has pulled it's weight well. But I cut it when I went from 25 to 24 land. If Reid and yourself have had good luck with the 4th I'll certainly give it a try. I always just ran 3 Ravine with 24 lands traditionally.
Tracker has to be insane in grindy fair matchups. What kinds of cuts did you make to fit her in the SB? Have you missed Spellbomb?
I think 1x Kommand and 1x LtLH is a fine split to start with. There's certainly times when both cards range from amazing to meh.
Also random thought, I just can't justify some of these lists still running Dreadbore. Jace isn't the boogeyman we thought he could of been, or atleast not yet since the right shell is still a mystery.
BG/x BG
I am sceptical on the fourth manland in a 24 land base. I am really sure we should do this. Honestly, in the recent times, espcially in the times before Probe was banned and Push was printed, we played a standard 24 land build including 3 Ravines and max 2 four drops. So that means we actually had a little bit of a smaller curve back then. I think you can agree on me that back then nobody wanted to play 4 Ravines generally, as it is just too greedy.
Now I am not quite getting the idea of including a fourth manland in a now slightly higher curve. For me the higher curve is actually a reason to not include a fourth manland. In that sense it doesn't make sense to me.
The one aspect that matters though is the speed of the format. Back then Infect was among the best decks, which meant the format was much faster. It seems the format is slowing down a bit now, which could be a good reason to try the fourth manland. After all they are great in the mirror. And Treetop is great.
However, if we want to do it, then we have to cut the second Forest for sure. And I am not sure if I want to do that yet. But its tempting to find out.
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
3 Raging Ravine
1 Treetop Village
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Blood Crypt
1 Stomping Ground
1 Twilight Mire
2 Swamp
1 Forest
Creatures [14]
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
3 Lightning Bolt
3 Fatal Push
2 Terminate
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Kolaghan's Command
4 Liliana of the Veil
3 Fulminator Mage
2 Kitchen Finks
2 Collective Brutality
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Golgari Charm
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Grim Lavamancer
The things which are in my opinion flexible in this list, are the following things:
All in all, a template for my approach could be this: