So, card selection/variance are our greatest enemy... so, only the best cards, and no 1-ofs... 1/2-drops as 3-ofs, 3-drops as 2-ofs ... with a few exceptions based on cards that you don't mind having two of at once, or has an equivalent, or you don't mind waiting for ... and just loot the rest away.
Believe it or not epica, I actually really love dark confidant. I put in a lot of work to acquire them when kolaghans command had just been printed and jund dethroned Abzan, and I’ve had a ton of fun playing with them since. Fun little anecdote from this era, I went to the same card shop as the owner of the modern esper control primer on here, and whooped him 3 times in a row to his displeasure (and because I live on the salt, I made sure to read his tournament reports on these losses ).
The reality is though that if you want to win, you sometimes have to make concessions and cut cards even if they have a special place in your heart. Truth be told, I really don’t like tracker because of how slow he can be sometimes, and something about the card in general feels wrong (perhaps because it’s a black card masquerading as green). But there’s no denying its power level; it’s by far the most consistently powerful top-end spell I’ve ever played in BG, and a far more reliable engine than bob. My winrate shot up big time since cutting bob and BBE for a tracker-centric build, and that’s not an accident imo. If I could win with just all my favorite cards, I’d play a sweet 2015 jund list with bob, tasigur, and Chandra pyromaster, but modern has progressed well beyond that point in the last couple years alone.
I must say that I'm still a little skeptical of Tracker over Bob, but even more about no BBE, but truth be told, I think it's worth trying if you're having results, why not, could you please share your list?
I can’t type it up right now sohma, but check my post history and you should see some of my lists. The latest list with bedlam revelers is untested, but I have one list with 24 lands and 4 trackers, and another with 23 lands, 4 trackers, and two lootings that I can both give a seal of approval to. Idk which is the better of the two, but they’re both quite playable/strong so pick your favorite. If you want to play BBE you can swap out the hazoret, I just personally haven’t been impressed with BBE lately.
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First off, this example is kind of the junds nightmare and even if you have faithless looting you’re likely to lose.
As for the Looting thing, if you have looting instead of Bob you could looting on turn 3 to draw 2 cards immediatly which in my mind is a better chance to find terminate than than either Bob or Tracker. I think Looting really helps here. It might not be enough, but at least you can dig right away, which is why I like looting.
I don't think this is just an unlikely nightmare that happens to Jund rarely. Well, see EPICAs post just right under mine:
@FlyingDelver - the exact scenario you played out above happened to me TONIGHT. Pisses me off because my Bob that survived flipped a Land and I drew a land...lol (I was running your list, so technically it's your fault.... hahaha). I did win 2-1 in the end though - unsure if I want to keep on 23 lands or move to 24 (with 4 Looting)
How unlikely is it to really happen? How can it be then that my theoretical scenario just happened to one of the few peoples who still play Jund? I think you either have not played against Hollow One that much or did get lucky quite often, because such scenarios are not rare to occur.
I am asking everyone reading this, do anybody feel this scenario I described is too rare to be real? I am really looking for other peoples experiences here, please tell me if I am wrong, I really feel these is a common situation you have to face against Hollow One with Jund.
I have to draw parallels between tracker and bob cause it’s the closest parallel available. Yes, I understand that you see tracker as BBEs cousin, and if you want to make that comparison instead and not draw parallels to bob, then the cards we’re actually arguing over are hazoret, kcommand #3, lavamancer, or brutality in hand vs bob.
Exactly. And to say, I am not against cutting bob for these cards, it might be the thing to do!
-if it’s hazoret, you live to turn 4 and have an indestructible 5/4 vs an angler
-if bob is now kcommand, you take a hit from the hollow one with the intention of kcommanding it next turn and holding terminate for a delve threat.
-if the card is brutality, you have to tag team the angler with that+bolt. This is probably the least good card here.
-if the card is lavamancer, same answer as brutality if you can fade a bolt on the grim.
And the reason I “accuse” you (you use very strong words) is because until about the latest list you posted, every list has been super traditional jund (with the usual core of goyf, confidant, lili, plus flayer) with looting thrown in. The last list you posted with 3 trackers is the first I remember seeing that struck me as having a legit plan to mitigate the card disadvantage, and even then I think you still need more 2-for-1s (and since bob often dies for no value, I don’t think he realistically qualifies).
It might be right to still cut flayers and bobs in my appraoch, sure. Right now I am for example looking deeper at Jaberwockis approach and then maybe tweak his list a little bit more. I for example really like PKN in the main. Its a great sourc for mitigating CA loss from Looting.
Turn 1 opponent: So my opponent plays a flamblade turn 1.
Turn 1 me: I then either bolt it or Iok. Lets say I IOK and take looting/lore.
Turn 2 opponent: My opponent casts either looting/lore (which was left) then attacks for 3-4 dmg and plays hollow one. I am at 16 max.
Turn 2 me: I need to terminate the hollow one on my turn 2 (in his actual turn 3 then)
Turn 3 opponent: My opponent attacks with flamblade + hollow for at least another 1, I terminate and then he drops gurmag. I am at 16 as of now.
Turn 3 me: In my turn I then have to play bob to find more answers.
Turn 4 opponent: In the meanwhile I get hit by Gurmag for 5 down to 11. Bob mght die to a bolt or won't.
Turn 4 me: If Bob dies, I am pretty much dead now. If he doesn't, I could flip a terminate/pulse/bolt to deal with gurmag and be back in the game a little.
So the endline is, yeah, bob is pretty unreliable since he must live. okay, now to your version of replacing bob with tracker:
Same hands for both except you have tracker over bob:
Turn 1 opponent: Flameblade adept.
Turn 1 me: IOK Looting/Lore.
Turn 2 opponent: Lore/Looting, attack for 3-4 and drop Hollow One.
Turn 2 me: Need to hold up terminate.
Turn 3 opponent: attacks with adept + hollow one, I terminate the hollow one. He then drops grumag.
Turn 3 me: I now need to play tracker.
Turn 4 opponent: Gurmag hits me for 5 down to 11. If they have a bolt Tracker dies immediatly.
Turn 4 me: Again, if tracker is dead, I am also pretty dead. If tracker lives, I am able to exactly have one landdrop, crack the clue and find exactly terminate or bolt. So Pulse is no out to be drawn from the clue, since I need to spend 2 mana for the clue. And if I don't draw terminate, I need to chump with my 4/3 tracker the next turn.
End of the line. So tell me, why should my example now enhance your bob is weak argument? How is having tracker more comfortable? I showed you now one specific game which is not that unlikely to happen in that way. I thin that same would happen if you had Ooze instead of Bob/Tracker. And Hazoret would just never come down early enoguh in the first place. And of course Goyf would be better here, nobody is talking about goyf, we all run 4 copies of that card.
Let's guess we keep this line of plays, i don't agree with IOK T1 to try to discard a spell among 12 (inquiry/looting/goblin lore) but not matter.
I not agree on an other point, i think you take looting to have the hope of goblin lore discard a fat guy i guess and you're opponent can't cast an other 1-cmc after looting.
So adept deals 4, gurmag deals 5 => 11hp if you not play any fetchs or ravlands, so let's say in a real world 10hp and try to keep the second fetch if tracker or no fetchs but 9hp with a ravland and you try to always keep a fetch if tracker.
Just try to run quickly approximated math on the critic T3 :
To fix the nice draws :
-i assume you have fetch once or just play a ravland and 3 draw steps so a mean of 49.5 cards lefts in your library and a mean of 9.5 hp.
-4 3-cmc removals left in the deck ( 2-3 LotV and/or 1-2 maelstrom pulse).
-3 bolts (can block and bolt the fat fish after).
-let's say 2 terminate-like, it's the same on the both lists.
-2.5 looting average between FlyingDelver and Tempest lists.
-2.5 k.command average between FlyingDelver and Tempest lists, it helps to kill fat fish with tracker.
-both lists have 9 fetchs and you need to play 1 before sometimes so a mean of 8.5 fetchs, i assume 24 lands, it's the "safe number".
Yeah, I did say it before, this scenario assumes that both with Tracker or Bob, you topdeck 2 lands on turn 2 and 3. So you have the fourth land for Tracker.
Like FlyingDelver explains, we assume bob or tracker stays alive, if not we will probably loose in the both cases.
Negative point for tracker : we need to play a third land untap so it can be impossible sometimes with the 4th untap or it cost 1 or 2 hp more sometimes.
Need to compute the probability to have 4 lands untap or 3 lands untap and ravine on T3 or just no have 3 or 4 lands, i don't know if it's close to 90% or something like that.
Let's assume we have the 4 untap land to stay in the FlyingDelver's situation and simplify but it's an other point between bob and tracker.
Negative point for bob : not matter what we draw with bob, he can take down our hp to 7/8 and even if we kill the fish it will very hard to manage the bloodghasts and phoenix with the burn spells and a bob in play where tracker can just block and kill faster.
Let's assume these 2 negative points are even.
(i know run the exact maths on this kind of situation but it's really longer so numbers are just bad approximations, Karnsten forgive me please)
-tracker allows us to play a k.command after block : bob (0/49.5) and tracker (2.5/49.5) That assumes you draw one naturally or live at least until turn 5 to crack a clue and cast the KCommand. But yeah.
-For now, i just consider the extra draw of each guy :
-bob allows us to play a 3-cmc removal spell like LotV or pulse : bob (4/49.5) and tracker (2.5/49.5)
-terminate and bolt is even except bob deals 2 damage to us : bob (9/49.5) and tracker (7.5/49.5)
-a fetch gives us a 5/4 tracker to trade, moreover tracker is boltproof : bob (9/49.5) and tracker (16/49.5) That would assume you live also until turn 5 to be able to crack the fetch and 2 clues. And on turn 5 you only would have 1 mana left then. So you are taking another hit off gurmag down to 6 or so. If you crack the fetch you are at 5.
-looting can help to find any response with bob, let us assume with 2 draw it's easy to find something : bob (11.5/49.5) and tracker (16/49.5)
(only bolt work with tracker and only with 2 red mana)
Under my assumptions, tracker seems really better, 32% of "nice" draws with tracker and 23% with bob.
I repeat, it's quick and false maths (or approximations).
If anyone sees any error or disagree with any assumption, please tell me.
I mean in general yeah, with tracker you naturally have more topdecks live since lands give clues. However, It assumes you survive until turn 5 then. I think the crucial turn is turn 4, where Bob draws you one extra card while you have 4 full mana available whereas tracker draws you one extra card where you only have 2 mana available. I think thats a little bit more important than the upside of tracker on turn 5 onwards. Of course tracker will be better then.
Huuum, maybe i was not clear but i talk only about T4.
You can play a fetch T4 and crack 2 clues to trade with the fish.
For k.command drawn on the draw step, you can just block T4 without sac a clue and k.command after. k.command it's the unique card which make a huge difference if you draw it naturally.
And yes i know on some points, i repeat what you say before but i try to be clear ><...
Ah sure, yes, I mixed something up. You can potentially crack 2 clues with a fetch and block with tracker.
@EPICAS22
It's what i called "run the maths",
FlyingDelver says us "bob is better in this scenario" and Tempest not agree.
My goal is try to check all the situations in the scenario to give a constructed math proof of "who is the best between bob and tracker ?".
It's obviously only and only and only and only in this scenario.
My big post is your point b), FlyingDelver and you say "tracker is better from T5" but that's not the subject, the subject is the T4.
i talked shortly about the negative points of each guy (tracker needs land, bob costs hp) and assume they are even in that scenario.
The idea is really to go in the details on what you say ;).
(Again if any part of my math post is not clear, please tell me, i will try to correct it)
I want to be clear, I don't want to say Bob is better in that scenario! That is very well not the point. Tempest only said that in this scenario Tracker would be more comfortable, to which I made this step by step analysis to show that both are about equal in that scenario. It should overall show, that there are common scenarios like that one, that would not make Jund a better deck if we simply exchange Bob with Tracker. My main point is that exchanging Bob with Tracker is not the solution, but rather have tracker as great CA engine later in the game (not meant for scenarios like the one we are talking about) and actually have Looting as a great card to help you in the early game. Whether Bob plays a role in that, is something I also don't know. I just wanna say that simply exchanging Bob with Tracker is also not the solution just like slipping some looting into an existint Jund deck. Thats the point.
So to summarize: Starting from a standard classic Jund list:
Making changes like -4 Bob and +4 Trackers does not help
Making chances like sliding 3-4 Looting into an existing Jund deck does not work.
Bob might have to be cut entirely.
We need Looting as a card selection tool.
Bobs purpose is to dig more early game interaction, so if we cut Bob, we must include more early game interaction for it.
Tracker is a good card which should be played in place of BBE, Trackers purpose is not to help in the early game, but to mitigate negative CA from Looting in the end game.
Grim Flayer needs to be tested as well.
Bedlam Reveler is a good option, well see how it goes.
PKN is a great tool for CA also.
And this whole discussion in my mind is that we generally have come to the similar page, but did take a different route for it. Tempest started by arguing that Tracker should be exchanged with Bob, while I now spend several pages explaining that bob and tracker have different purposes. IN the end tempest did good things, namely actually -4 Bob + more early interaction and cutting BBE for Tracker, while tempest claimed that Bob was exchanged for tracker. The only thing that we now have a disagreement on is that Looting, in my mind, is still needed for early interaction, while Tempest sees looting more as an esurance in the late game. As it seems Tempest has been more lucky in terms of surviving the early game is what I have as an explanation for this. So all in all, the solution seems to be similar.
Sweet, sounds like we’re on a similar page then Delver, cause I agree with most of what you’re saying. I recognize that that hollow one example is semi-common, but I say it’s the “jund nightmare” to mean that, on the draw, you’re unlikely to beat that draw no matter what you’ve put in your deck. You just have to get lucky.
Anyways, looting for fixing early game draws sounds sweet for sure, I guess I just view that more as a luxury; not something you need if you play your cards right. Anyways not important.
I think grim flayer is gonna fall into the same camp as dark confidant of just not really making the cut. I think our first impressions (ie it’s too inconsistent to be good) were correct. Jaberwocki talks about it in his video, but his first three-ish lists all had flayer and he cut them after a rough day of lots of losses. He doesn’t say specifically why, but he mentions that the deck was constructed to be more aggressive and I’m guessing he discovered that his deck couldn’t take that role like he wanted. Test it if you want, just thinking I can save you some time.
Is pia and Kiran really card advantage though if your opponent isn’t a control deck? I know the card’s powerful, but I guess I’m just dubious about it since jund has always opted for other 4 drops in all points in its history. Doesn’t mean it’s not good, but I can’t help but question why that is.
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That synergy hasn’t escaped me epica, and I’m totally interested in doing that at some point in my life lol. Like I was saying, pia and Kiran is undoubtedly strong, and I think I’ll go there if reveler doesn’t work out, but I’m sorta not passionate about expensive spells that don’t afford a degree of inevitability. Perhaps I’m wrong though, it looked quite good in jaberwocki’s league.
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Hey dudes, went 4-0 at Tuesday night modern with this list, I've been shifting my playstyle to becoming more aggressive and it's brought me success. I really think Grim Flayer is amazing in a traditional Jund shell. Like Reid said awhile ago, it increases the chance of landing that turn 2 threat, and plays so well with Bob. Filtering your deck so Bob flips lands and you draw gas is amazing. I highly recommend you guys try him, he doesn't need any deck warping to make him good. He's great for the same reason Goyf is great, he gets fat just by playing a game of magic. Matchups were as follows:
UW Control 2-0
This was pretty textbook, beat him down both games before he could take control. Having extra 2 drop threats is key in control matchups because we need to get out of the gate quickly. Grim flayer rules.
Traverse Jund 2-1
These were some close games, very grindy. I like the traverse lists a lot but I think they play a lot of "fluff" with baubles and such, sometimes the deck loses to itself due to keeping low land hands with no traverse. This match was a slug fest, but Grim Lavamancer broke some gummed up board states.
Grixis Shadow 2-1
Great games against a talented opponent, I'll keep it short and sweet, but Hazoret is just too oppressive for them to deal with. He protec and he attac.
Mono U Tron 2-1
There's a lot of midrange at my LGS, which is why Tron seems to do well. All I can say is having a turn 2 threat makes the game so much better. Granted, this isn't Gx tron, but with Goyf/Flayer as well as Fulminator mages, this matchup is winnable.
Any one excited for alpine moon or infernal reckoning or are they just too narrow to be good/playable? I'm considering the moon because of the nonbo damping sphere creates for BBE but i like the flexibility of one card hosing two decks...
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Standard // nRG Aggro
Modern // Burn (main) and Living End (secondary) now Jund.
For fun check out my janky combo primer: Turn 3 Grixis Combo
"Can't beat em' Jund em'!"
Any one excited for alpine moon or infernal reckoning or are they just too narrow to be good/playable? I'm considering the moon because of the nonbo damping sphere creates for BBE but i like the flexibility of one card hosing two decks...
I like both cards and think they will find their uses. I am happy to add both cards to our gauntlet of possible SB cards.
I think Alpine Moon has basically the same problem BM has, as it does nothing if it gets removed, but overall I think it is a very good card for Big Mana.
On PKN, I am really liking this card. Was always a pet card of mine, because the sheer amount of value you can get with her. If she gets boltet, we can at least KCommand/LtLH back her again and generate more tokens, thats just amazing.
Just jammed a bunch of games with Jaberwockis list and had a god opening hand of: IOK, Bolt, Goyf, Looting, KCommand, Overgrown, Bloodstained. God, that hand felt incredible. I believe this hand could beat any deck. You have everything you want.
Also I think jaberwockis assessment of Tracker is pretty fair. He says he has lots to do with his mana already (Ravine, Looting, PKN, KCommand, LtLH, Ooze) so that he doesn't have time for clues. Also he says Tracker is bad against lots of decks like Affinity and Humans, since he is too slow.
Especially with Looting it kinda makes sense. Can get awkward when you need mana to both play Looting and crack clues. So both have some antisynergy actually.
I've been experimenting with Temur Midrange, but I feel he can potentially be very strong here as well. He is an all-star for me right now with all the control running around.
okay here's my initial thoughts on Faithless Looting Jund.
- Liliana the Veil and Looting is a Non-bo, u want to use lands to discard to lily but Looting makes you want to hold lands for filtering
- Not enough green sources for Scavenging Ooze so I end up pitching it for Looting
- Don't like the feel of manlands and Looting at the same time. (this one is just subjective, don't really have good reason)
- Looting Doesn't have a lot of cards like lingering souls to make it valuable.
- 24 lands is to much with a filtering cantrip
If filtering is concerned. I'm going to try to used Manamorphose or Bauble in place of Faithless Looting. Hopefully this works.
Been in the Rockies for awhile with no internet and no need of a hobby/diversion. Unfortunately I’m back now in the “real” world, so I’m trying to catch up on the MtG haps. Some relatively interesting stuff’s been going on it looks like. Some Looting Jund lists, new Modern staples from M19 are surfacing, etc.
Right now I’m most interested in this low-to-the-ground Traverse Abzan list that’s been popping up. What are y’all’s thoughts on it? I have all the pieces. Might consider running it. Anyone messed around with it or played against it? I know it’s not Jund, but it’s a close relative and can possibly give us some insight on relevant strategies for the BGx archetypes.
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MODERN: BRGJUNDGRB---BRHOLLOW ONERB---BGELVESGB---BRGLIVING ENDGRB---GWBOGLESWG EDH: BRGKARRTHUS, TYRANT OF JUNDGRB
I can only say I really like the approach of jaberwocki. I would suggest everyone to give it a try. I think Looting is the real deal, despite the negative CA. Reveler, KCommands, PKN and LtLH can certainly grind hard.
1x Blood Crypt
4x Bloodstained Mire
1x Forest
2x Overgrown Tomb
3x Raging Ravine
1x Stomping Ground
2x Swamp
4x Verdant Catacombs
1x Wooded Foothills
4x Faithless Looting
2x Fatal Push
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Lightning Bolt
2x Thoughtseize
1x Dreadbore
2x Terminate
2x Kolaghan's Command
2x Liliana of the Veil
2x Maelstrom Pulse
3x Scavenging Ooze
4x Tarmogoyf
2x Tireless Tracker
2x Ancient Grudge
3x Collective Brutality
1x Damnation
1x Engineered Explosives
3x Fulminator Mage
1x Grim Lavamancer
1x Liliana, the Last Hope
2x Nihil Spellbomb
1x Rakdos Charm
Or another version, with Bedlam Reveler supported by 23 spells... I'll be playing this one.
1x Blood Crypt
4x Bloodstained Mire
1x Forest
2x Overgrown Tomb
3x Raging Ravine
1x Stomping Ground
2x Swamp
4x Verdant Catacombs
1x Wooded Foothills
4x Faithless Looting
2x Fatal Push
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Lightning Bolt
2x Thoughtseize
1x Dreadbore
2x Terminate
2x Kolaghan's Command
2x Liliana of the Veil
2x Maelstrom Pulse
4x Tarmogoyf
3x Tireless Tracker
2x Bedlam Reveler
2x Ancient Grudge
3x Collective Brutality
1x Damnation
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Grim Lavamancer
1x Liliana, the Last Hope
3x Molten Rain
2x Nihil Spellbomb
1x Rakdos Charm
The reality is though that if you want to win, you sometimes have to make concessions and cut cards even if they have a special place in your heart. Truth be told, I really don’t like tracker because of how slow he can be sometimes, and something about the card in general feels wrong (perhaps because it’s a black card masquerading as green). But there’s no denying its power level; it’s by far the most consistently powerful top-end spell I’ve ever played in BG, and a far more reliable engine than bob. My winrate shot up big time since cutting bob and BBE for a tracker-centric build, and that’s not an accident imo. If I could win with just all my favorite cards, I’d play a sweet 2015 jund list with bob, tasigur, and Chandra pyromaster, but modern has progressed well beyond that point in the last couple years alone.
UMerfolkGBW
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GBR Jund Midrange
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GBR Prossh
I must say that I'm still a little skeptical of Tracker over Bob, but even more about no BBE, but truth be told, I think it's worth trying if you're having results, why not, could you please share your list?
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GBR Prossh
As for the Looting thing, if you have looting instead of Bob you could looting on turn 3 to draw 2 cards immediatly which in my mind is a better chance to find terminate than than either Bob or Tracker. I think Looting really helps here. It might not be enough, but at least you can dig right away, which is why I like looting.
I don't think this is just an unlikely nightmare that happens to Jund rarely. Well, see EPICAs post just right under mine:
How unlikely is it to really happen? How can it be then that my theoretical scenario just happened to one of the few peoples who still play Jund? I think you either have not played against Hollow One that much or did get lucky quite often, because such scenarios are not rare to occur.
I am asking everyone reading this, do anybody feel this scenario I described is too rare to be real? I am really looking for other peoples experiences here, please tell me if I am wrong, I really feel these is a common situation you have to face against Hollow One with Jund.
Exactly. And to say, I am not against cutting bob for these cards, it might be the thing to do!
Yeah I can get behind that.
It might be right to still cut flayers and bobs in my appraoch, sure. Right now I am for example looking deeper at Jaberwockis approach and then maybe tweak his list a little bit more. I for example really like PKN in the main. Its a great sourc for mitigating CA loss from Looting.
I mean in general yeah, with tracker you naturally have more topdecks live since lands give clues. However, It assumes you survive until turn 5 then. I think the crucial turn is turn 4, where Bob draws you one extra card while you have 4 full mana available whereas tracker draws you one extra card where you only have 2 mana available. I think thats a little bit more important than the upside of tracker on turn 5 onwards. Of course tracker will be better then.
Ah sure, yes, I mixed something up. You can potentially crack 2 clues with a fetch and block with tracker.
I want to be clear, I don't want to say Bob is better in that scenario! That is very well not the point. Tempest only said that in this scenario Tracker would be more comfortable, to which I made this step by step analysis to show that both are about equal in that scenario. It should overall show, that there are common scenarios like that one, that would not make Jund a better deck if we simply exchange Bob with Tracker. My main point is that exchanging Bob with Tracker is not the solution, but rather have tracker as great CA engine later in the game (not meant for scenarios like the one we are talking about) and actually have Looting as a great card to help you in the early game. Whether Bob plays a role in that, is something I also don't know. I just wanna say that simply exchanging Bob with Tracker is also not the solution just like slipping some looting into an existint Jund deck. Thats the point.
So to summarize: Starting from a standard classic Jund list:
And this whole discussion in my mind is that we generally have come to the similar page, but did take a different route for it. Tempest started by arguing that Tracker should be exchanged with Bob, while I now spend several pages explaining that bob and tracker have different purposes. IN the end tempest did good things, namely actually -4 Bob + more early interaction and cutting BBE for Tracker, while tempest claimed that Bob was exchanged for tracker. The only thing that we now have a disagreement on is that Looting, in my mind, is still needed for early interaction, while Tempest sees looting more as an esurance in the late game. As it seems Tempest has been more lucky in terms of surviving the early game is what I have as an explanation for this. So all in all, the solution seems to be similar.
Anyways, looting for fixing early game draws sounds sweet for sure, I guess I just view that more as a luxury; not something you need if you play your cards right. Anyways not important.
I think grim flayer is gonna fall into the same camp as dark confidant of just not really making the cut. I think our first impressions (ie it’s too inconsistent to be good) were correct. Jaberwocki talks about it in his video, but his first three-ish lists all had flayer and he cut them after a rough day of lots of losses. He doesn’t say specifically why, but he mentions that the deck was constructed to be more aggressive and I’m guessing he discovered that his deck couldn’t take that role like he wanted. Test it if you want, just thinking I can save you some time.
Is pia and Kiran really card advantage though if your opponent isn’t a control deck? I know the card’s powerful, but I guess I’m just dubious about it since jund has always opted for other 4 drops in all points in its history. Doesn’t mean it’s not good, but I can’t help but question why that is.
UMerfolkGBW
Melira PodRIPGBW Abzan Midrange
GBR Jund Midrange
EDH
GBR Prossh
UMerfolkGBW
Melira PodRIPGBW Abzan Midrange
GBR Jund Midrange
EDH
GBR Prossh
UW Control 2-0
This was pretty textbook, beat him down both games before he could take control. Having extra 2 drop threats is key in control matchups because we need to get out of the gate quickly. Grim flayer rules.
Traverse Jund 2-1
These were some close games, very grindy. I like the traverse lists a lot but I think they play a lot of "fluff" with baubles and such, sometimes the deck loses to itself due to keeping low land hands with no traverse. This match was a slug fest, but Grim Lavamancer broke some gummed up board states.
Grixis Shadow 2-1
Great games against a talented opponent, I'll keep it short and sweet, but Hazoret is just too oppressive for them to deal with. He protec and he attac.
Mono U Tron 2-1
There's a lot of midrange at my LGS, which is why Tron seems to do well. All I can say is having a turn 2 threat makes the game so much better. Granted, this isn't Gx tron, but with Goyf/Flayer as well as Fulminator mages, this matchup is winnable.
4x Blackcleave Cliffs
4x Verdant Catacombs
3x Bloodstained Mire
1x Wooded Foothills
2x Overgrown Tomb
1x Blood Crypt
1x Stomping Ground
3x Raging Ravine
1x Twilight Mire
2x Swamp
2x Forest
Instant// 9
4x Lightning Bolt
1x Fatal Push
1x Abrupt Decay
1x Terminate
2x Kolaghan's Command
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Dark Confidant
2x Scavenging Ooze
2x Grim Flayer
2x Bloodbraid Elf
1x Hazoret the Fervent
Sorcery// 8
3x Thoughtseize
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Maelstrom Pulse
Planeswalker// 4
4x Liliana of the Veil
3x Fulminator Mage
2x Collective Brutality
2x Nihil Spellbomb
2x Anger of the Gods
1x Duress
1x Ancient Grudge
1x Grim Lavamancer
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
1x Liliana, the Last Hope
Modern // Burn (main) and Living End (secondary) now Jund.
For fun check out my janky combo primer: Turn 3 Grixis Combo
"Can't beat em' Jund em'!"
I like both cards and think they will find their uses. I am happy to add both cards to our gauntlet of possible SB cards.
I think Alpine Moon has basically the same problem BM has, as it does nothing if it gets removed, but overall I think it is a very good card for Big Mana.
On PKN, I am really liking this card. Was always a pet card of mine, because the sheer amount of value you can get with her. If she gets boltet, we can at least KCommand/LtLH back her again and generate more tokens, thats just amazing.
Also I think jaberwockis assessment of Tracker is pretty fair. He says he has lots to do with his mana already (Ravine, Looting, PKN, KCommand, LtLH, Ooze) so that he doesn't have time for clues. Also he says Tracker is bad against lots of decks like Affinity and Humans, since he is too slow.
Especially with Looting it kinda makes sense. Can get awkward when you need mana to both play Looting and crack clues. So both have some antisynergy actually.
I've been experimenting with Temur Midrange, but I feel he can potentially be very strong here as well. He is an all-star for me right now with all the control running around.
- Liliana the Veil and Looting is a Non-bo, u want to use lands to discard to lily but Looting makes you want to hold lands for filtering
- Not enough green sources for Scavenging Ooze so I end up pitching it for Looting
- Don't like the feel of manlands and Looting at the same time. (this one is just subjective, don't really have good reason)
- Looting Doesn't have a lot of cards like lingering souls to make it valuable.
- 24 lands is to much with a filtering cantrip
If filtering is concerned. I'm going to try to used Manamorphose or Bauble in place of Faithless Looting. Hopefully this works.
I only cut one Blooming Marsh for one Terminate.
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/1198537#paper
Right now I’m most interested in this low-to-the-ground Traverse Abzan list that’s been popping up. What are y’all’s thoughts on it? I have all the pieces. Might consider running it. Anyone messed around with it or played against it? I know it’s not Jund, but it’s a close relative and can possibly give us some insight on relevant strategies for the BGx archetypes.
BRGJUNDGRB---BRHOLLOW ONERB---BGELVESGB---BRGLIVING ENDGRB---GWBOGLESWG
EDH:
BRGKARRTHUS, TYRANT OF JUNDGRB